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episode #308

Rebroadcast: Interview with Dr. Ben Bikman: Importance of Controlling Insulin for Fat Loss, How to Break a Fast, and Quit Eating Chicken!!

November 27, 2023 in Podcast


This week I'm rebroadcasting my interview with metabolic and diabetes scientist, and author of Why We Get Sick - Dr. Ben Bikman!

In this episode, we discussed a wide array of topics including the role of insulin in the body, calories vs. insulin, how to break a fast, the importance of salt in the diet, and fermenting foods for overall health!

Enjoy this insightful interview with Ben and be sure to check out his book, Why We Get Sick,

Connect With Dr. Ben Bikman: 


HLTH Code meal replacement shake. Use code Ben10 for 10% off


Why We Get Sick:


Brian (0s):

Coming up on the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast.

Ben (4s):

The tragedy in our low salt obsession is that the more and more you cut salt in the diet, the higher the insulin gets. Because insulin is a water retaining hormone and a salt retaining hormone. And because salt is a molecule that is so essential for life, as you start cutting it in your diet, well then the body becomes all the more desperate to hold on to what it's got. Hmm. And so insulin climbs in order to try to keep that in. And as Insulin stays high, you become Insulin resistant. There are actual human clinical interventional studies that have proven this. So this isn't even correlation slash coincidence. This is causality. The more someone is cutting salt, the more likely that they are becoming more and more insulin resistant.

Ben (48s):

Ironically, all in an effort to try to hold on to the salt that they do have.

Brian (54s):

Hello, and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Gryn, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week, I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week, we're doing a Rebroadcast of an interview I had with Dr. Ben Beekman. He's a metabolic and diabetes scientist, the author of Why We Get Sick. And we discussed a wide array of topics, including the role of insulin in the body, calories versus insulin, how to break a fast, the importance of salt in the diet, and much, much more.

Brian (1m 35s):

Really enjoy this insightful Interview with Dr Ben Bikman. I thought it was worth rebroadcasting. Enjoy the interview, and thanks so much for listening, All. right. Welcome to the GETLEAN E Clean Podcast. My name is Brian Gryn, and I have a special guest, Dr. Ben Bikman. Welcome to the show.

Ben (1m 54s):

Hey, brother, glad to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Brian (1m 56s):

Yeah. Glad we could get together. I've heard you on a bunch of different Podcasts. Oh my God. He's, he's a lot smarter than me. I gotta get him on.

Ben (2m 3s):

Oh, no, listen. Hey, let's just start this right off. What I, what I really, in all, in all sincerity, there's a difference. Of course, And, you know, this and you're just being self-deprecating, but, you know, just kind of intellect and smarts versus just, this is a guy who's just spent a lot of time becoming familiar with a certain topic. you know what I mean? Right. I don't think people with PhDs, they're no smarter than anybody else. They just found a topic. They cared enough to devote an an ungodly amount of time to understanding. That's the only difference, because you ask me about your car, I don't know. you know, I'm, I'm the dimwit.

Brian (2m 38s):

Yeah, that's very true. I mean, like anything, if you wanna be really good at it, you gotta almost obsess about it, right? Yeah.

Ben (2m 43s):

Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Brian (2m 45s):

I obsess about golf, so that's a whole nother thing. So

Ben (2m 49s):

In my view on golf is I'll do it when I'm too old to do anything else. All. right. So,

Brian (2m 54s):

You know what, though? You gotta start a little bit early, so you get there. Oh,

Ben (2m 57s):

No, I know, I know. I will, I will.

Brian (2m 60s):

Okay, awesome. Well, we're gonna, I got a bunch of different ideas regarding topics we can talk about. Maybe before we get into that, just give the audience just a, maybe a short background of, of, you know, I, I know on your Facebook page you say you're a diabetes and obesity scientist, which is pretty, pretty cool. Maybe give 'em a little background of, of, of your Yeah. Your, your, your teacher and author. I also have your book here. Why We. Get Sick. Nice. So we'll talk about

Ben (3m 26s):

That. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you kind of, that's a pretty thorough introduction. I, I am a research scientist, so publishing scientist, you know, conducting research in my lab all the time, even today, doing some experiments looking at how Fat cells express different levels of thyroid hormone receptor and how that influences the metabolic rate in Fat cells. Nothing to publish on that yet, but yeah, so active researcher publishing and presenting. I'm also a, a professor in the sense that I teach classes. I have an undergraduate assignment where I teach undergraduate students about the body when it gets sick, like diabetes, for example.

Ben (4m 7s):

And then I have a graduate course that I teach about endocrinology. So the study of hormones, which is perfect for me because I study hormones in my lab. And so it's fun for me to be able to teach that topic. I'm very kind of on the nose. And then of course, outside of the classroom and the lab, I am a husband and father, and that means more than anything else.

Brian (4m 27s):

Yeah. And, what got you interested in, you know, just, you know, I know you talk a lot about Insulin, Resistance and hormones in general. What, what sort of got you interested in all that?

Ben (4m 37s):

Oh, yeah. It all started with insulin and that it all started with the Fat cell. I will, I will, I will not forget the moment where I was getting a master's degree in exercise science. And I, I knew I wanted to do, pursue academia and become a scientist and a, a scientist and a professor. But I, you know, I was still learning what I wanted to do and And what I would become in that regard, professionally speaking. And then I stumbled upon a paper that had been published just a couple years prior. So this is early two thousands. The paper was published late nineties, which detailed how Fat cells, when they got big, started to secrete pro-inflammatory Proteins called cytokines.

Ben (5m 19s):

And that starts to, started to promote an inflammatory profile in the body, which then caused this condition called insulin Resistance, which I wasn't familiar with, but that was thought to be the link at the time, and it still is thought to be a link connecting weight gain to type two diabetes. So that was the beginning of it all, very humble, almost accidental origins. And then I couldn't get insulin Resistance and inflammation out of my mind. And then I, I pursued that very deliberately with my, with my PhD work, my dissertation, looking at changes in inflammation and insulin sensitivity in people who were overweight, obese, who had gastric bypass surgeries.

Ben (5m 60s):

And then more, again, more intent, deliberate focus on this topic with inflammation and insulin Resistance during my postdoctoral fellowship. And then when I started to run my own lab here at BYU 11 years ago, the theme continued.

Brian (6m 16s):

Continued. Yeah. Interesting. I've, I've always been intrigued as well, not maybe quite on the same level as you with insulin and its role in the body. Maybe talk, talk to our audience a little bit about, I mean, I mean, we could probably spend an hour about all its different roles that it plays, but perhaps what, what it has to do with, you know, just with Fat loss and things that could affect, you know, every people on an everyday basis.

Ben (6m 39s):

Yeah, yeah. So Insulin is a hormone of, for life, of life, rather. Right. You, you must have it or you'll die. And the relevance of insulin is reflected in the fact that literally every single cell of the body has insulin receptors. In other words, every cell has these little pockets that just insulin will come and bind and then tell the cell to do something. Now, it's no surprise because there's such a variety of cells in the body that insulin will tell different cells to do different things. The most famous thing that it tells cells to do is to take in glucose. Some cells will respond to insulin like muscle cells by opening doors for glucose to come in and thereby lower blood glucose.

Ben (7m 22s):

But at Fat cells, in addition to stimulating glucose uptake, which the Fat cell will use to turn into Fat, it will also very powerfully block the inhibition of Fat breakdown. But that first point, Brian, is relevant. There are people I've seen in, in the kind of social media space that will say, Fat cells don't turn glucose to Fat. That is absolutely false. Glucose alone, just glucose alone, is capable of activating the enzymatic machinery to, to turn on the pa the, the biochemical pathway to make Fat from, from just scratch carbons, like from glucose, not even insulin, but just glucose alone provides that signal.

Ben (8m 8s):

And, and So, we have to put that myth to bed. Glucose is absolutely a molecule that a Fat cell will use to build Fat molecules. So, in other words, to turn it into Fat, but again, at the same time, insulin is powerfully inhibiting the breakdown of that Fat. And so, but it's not as much stimulating the uptake of Fat. That's important, that the uptake of Fat is something that doesn't require insulin's involvement, unlike the uptake of glucose. If a Fat cell's pulling in glucose, insulin tells it to do that, that's necessary. But with regards to the Fat alone, insulin's blocking the breakdown of that Fat. And so the net effect of this is while the Fat cell continues to take in Fat without Insulin even telling it to what, what it starts to grow.

Ben (8m 55s):

Because insulin's blocking the breakdown of the Fat, not to mention inducing the synthesis of new Fat in the form of, of turning glucose into Fat.

Brian (9m 6s):

Now, a little bit off that point is, you know, there's a, there's sort of two arguments. There's probably more than just two, but there's sort of two sides of it. you know, you have sort of maybe an old school approach, maybe some new school is like, you know, it's all about calories. And, and then other people are like, well, no, it has to do with, you know, insulin and, and it's ability to, you know, obviously not spike as much and as often as it should. I'm, I've always been more, I've never counted calories my whole life. It's, I've, I just sort of go off intuition, try to eat till I'm full, you know, till I'm satisfied and move on. And I can sort of just, you know, until I've always been on the insulin side, but I'm just curious, what's your thoughts?

Brian (9m 52s):

I know which side, maybe you sit on But. it probably is a combination of both.

Ben (9m 56s):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is. It is. Absolutely. I have a, I have a, I think a particular, particularly qualified and perhaps unique view on this, because my PhD was on a topic or a degree in bioenergetics, which is the study of energy in cells. And calories are the unit of energy. We call it a, a calorie, but it's a way of just, I quantifying energy. So I have a unique appreciation for energy use and even the laws of thermodynamics. And so I am deliberate in saying this, I think in, I think giving food a caloric value is one of the greatest mistakes we ever made in the realm of human nutrition and our understanding.

Ben (10m 43s):

Who did that? Who did that? Yeah, I know, I know. So it was scientists in the early, I think late 18 hundreds, I guess. I'm sure they thought they were doing them a favor. Right? Be, and there's something to be said for just knowledge. But then trying to apply that to the human organism as if we are a perfect thermodynamic machine. If we were, if our bodies represented the entirety of energy in the universe, then it would make sense, because then you can perfectly capture and quantify and account for every unit of energy. We are not, we are what's called an open system. And thus the laws of thermodynamics simply cannot be applied to the organism, to, to a living organism.

Ben (11m 27s):

I think it is a travesty of science that it was ever invoked in the first place, and that it continues to be invoked. Now, having said this, I'm not saying energy doesn't matter. Energy does matter, but our obsessive focus on energy has caused us to totally overlook the relevance of hormones. Because hormones, especially insulin, are what tell the body, the cells of the body, what to do with the energy that it has. Case in point, right across the hallway is my laboratory, where we literally right now have Fat cells growing in a little Petri dish. Brian, I can into that little soupy mix of, for the cells to grow, I can have ample calories from glucose and fatty acids, and the Fat or triglycerides, the Fat cells won't grow at all.

Ben (12m 17s):

They'll just stay these little kind of stubby dark little cells until we spike insulin into the culture, into that little bath. Hmm. At the moment we put insulin in day after day after day, we can start to detect a, a, a Fat droplets within. And they get these, they become these big bubbly Fat cells. Like you think of Fat cells. It cannot happen unless Insulin is elevated. It's impossible. So a cell needs to be told what to do with energy. And, and there's so much I could say on this and, and maybe I'll just leave it at that for the sake of time that energy matters. Absolutely. But if we aren't accounting for calorie F for hormones, then we are not counting the energy appropriately.

Brian (13m 1s):

Right, right. Well said. Well said. And I know you talked on a recent podcast about a study that was done. I thought it was really cool. Maybe you can touch on that is where they, regarding low carb and a higher carb, and they kept everything else the same. Right. And the individual, the metabolic rate actually was better on a low, on a low carb diet. Is that right?

Ben (13m 25s):

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, that's right. Yeah. So this even happens in non-diabetic humans and multiple groups have shown this now, that if a human is eating a diet that is very low in refined carbs, and thus Insulin is low, their metabolic rate will be anywhere from a hundred to 300 calories a day higher without doing anything else. It's not like they're exercising, they're not on the stair stepper for an extra hour. Just metabolic rate is that much higher. Hmm. The most dramatic example of this is seen in type one diabetics we've known for over a hundred years, that when insulin is low, like in the case of type one diabetes, metabolic rate is significantly higher than it should be based on the body size.

Ben (14m 6s):

And then the moment you start giving the person Insulin, this was studies done in the, in the eighties, more recently, the moment you start giving them insulin metabolic rate slows to where you'd expect, and that happens in type one diabetes, where it's quite dramatic because it goes from no insulin to a, you know, abundant Insulin. But even in the case of type two diabetes, which is already elevated insulin, you give them Insulin therapy, metabolic rate slows from the moment you start the insulin therapy. E insulin is so determined to store energy that it will slow the metabolic rate to make energy storage even easier.

Brian (14m 42s):

Wow. And I know Dr. Jason Fung, I, I think that was one of the first books I read, his obesity code. And he talks a lot about that and how he started treating people, you know, who are type two diabetic with fasting. What are your thoughts around implementing fasting? you know, it's something that we, I talk quite a bit about on the podcast, And. what are your thoughts around that for individuals to implement on a day-to-day basis?

Ben (15m 6s):

Yeah, I think it's genius. I, I think Jason, Jason ought to be credited. And I, I appreciate that you're bringing him up because he is really the godfather of the modern interest in fasting. I think fasting needs to be used and, but also used carefully, because I think sometimes in some people, fasting becomes a binge purge cycle where they fast, they get super hungry, and then they binge and eat all kinds of garbage. They, they overeat, they feel full and uncomfortable. They have shame, they regret it, they resolve to do better the next day, and they do the exact same thing. So with, I'm a huge advocate of fasting, but I think that how a person breaks the fast is more important than how long they go.

Ben (15m 52s):

In other words, the food they eat at the end of their fast matters much more than how long the fast goes Now. I don't know that Jason agrees with that. I wouldn't be surprised if he does, but that's kinda my own view of the, on the matter.

Brian (16m 4s):

Yeah. Well, and, and that topic, let's talk a little about breaking a fast and what, what are the type of foods that you would recommend someone, you know, I I I think obviously if you're doing a longer fast, it probably plays more of a role. If you're doing it every day and you're sort of used to it, obviously the foods you eat are, do play a role, but if, especially if you're doing a prolonged fast, breaking it correctly is really important. What are type of, yeah, yeah. What are some of the foods that, and I know you mentioned some of them in your book. Are you just looking, is the main thing that you're looking at is like glycemic load and things like that and how it affects you?

Ben (16m 37s):

Yeah. So I, I, I sometimes worry that I'm too boring, that I'm too one dimensional and And, you know, I'm the guy with the hammer and I see Insulin as the nail everywhere, so I'm just hitting it all the time. But my view on it is the, that the value of fasting well would be manifold. There would be multiple benefits, but one of them would be that, that you lower Insulin And. now when insulin comes down, you are mobilizing Fat and burning it. There's no question about that. And that's why you're making ketones 'cause you're burning Fat so much. But you're also activating autophagy. As much as people are obsessed with autophagy nowadays, I, I think that's appropriate. Autophagy does appear to be very beneficial and even necessary for a lot of the benefits of fasting.

Ben (17m 17s):

Then you gotta lower insulin. If insulin is elevated, you cannot activate autophagy. Insulin will stop that process because it's energy wasting. And insulin doesn't like to waste energy. And so my view on it is when you break the fast, keep that going and, and keep that Insulin down and go transition from a kind of true classic caloric fast when you're not eating or drinking calories. And then when you're breaking that, have you move your body into what I like to refer to as a nutritional fast, which is now you're eating, you're getting nutrients, but because you're scrutinizing the carbohydrates and focusing more on Proteins and fats, the insulin effect is much more modest and you can continue to get some of the benefits of the fasting.

Brian (18m 1s):

What are your thoughts on fructose?

Ben (18m 3s):

Yeah. Yes. I'm not an advocate of, well, I am certainly not an advocate of how most people are getting fructose, which is, you know, they're drinking it and juices, right? And they're getting it from lots of sugar. I know that they're within the community, low carb community, a lot of prominent voices are advocating honey. I, I'm, I don't know, I I'm not overtly opposed to that. Honey is a mix of glucose and fructose, kinda like sugar is. But of course it's very natural. And if it's, if it's not pasteurized, I think it can have a lot of benefits like with antibodies and enhancing immunity in people. But I also don't think that people need to be trying to get honey in their diet fructose, although that's not what you asked me about too much.

Ben (18m 49s):

Fructose will absolutely promote fatty liver disease. Fructose also increases cortisol sensitivity in Fat cells, which can result in more Fat storage on the visceral or truncal space of the body. Not to mention that fructose metabolism increases uric acid, which can increase gout. So I'm not an advocate of, of certainly refined fructose. And maybe if the fructose were coming in the form of, you know, infrequent honey, well then, you know, I, I can't really be opposed to that

Brian (19m 22s):

An occasional, maybe fruit, like are you totally anti-free?

Ben (19m 25s):

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, sure, sure. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's okay. So my view on fruit is my view on diet overall. The first rule for me is control carbohydrates. And generally, what I mean by that is don't get your carbs from bags and boxes with barcodes, but rather fruits and vegetables. And if you're eating them, not drinking them, then essentially that's something you can enjoy. Ad libitum, there's really no re in my mind, unless you're a type two diabetic trying to get off your drugs, then you gotta be much more thorough and strict. But for the average person who's not type two diabetic and doesn't wanna be, then basically fruits and vegetables are fine by my estimation.

Brian (20m 3s):

Do you prioritize protein when you have the

Ben (20m 5s):

Meals? Yeah, so that's rule number two for me. Yeah. So yeah, the first one is control carbs and then prioritize protein. But it's interesting, Brian, because when I first joined the low carb space, if you will, the social media space, there was absolutely a fear of protein. Right? And in fact, that was so interesting to me that I devoted some time to it and gave a talk at low carb Breckenridge years ago, looking at protein and helping people understand one that has a modest effect on insulin itself. And two, it's usually coupled with an equal or even greater effect of glucagon. And I was, I, I think kind of the one who brought glucagon into the conversation here, which offsets what insulin's doing.

Ben (20m 49s):

But as pleased as I am that protein is no longer vilified. I, I wonder at how far we've swung the other way where, where it's protein at all costs and protein has become the single greatest component of, of the diet. I don't think even, even at the expense of Fat where it's just high protein and low everything else. I don't think that is a diet that is prudent in part because the best Proteins come with Fat. And in our hubris, we think we know better, I would say, than God others would say than mother nature. But, but those protein sources that come with Fat should come with the Fat.

Ben (21m 34s):

We literally digest the protein better when we eat it with Fat. The bile acid that get released with Fat ingestion facilitate the proteolytic breakdown and digestion of Proteins. You do not digest protein as well without Fat. In other words, also, the two are more anabolic than just protein alone. So I, I'm not an advocate of prioritizing Fat, you know, people being very liberal, adding Fat to everything. I don't think that's overly prudent. But at the same time, I'm very opposed to just pushing protein at all costs and cutting back everything else. Protein is it, it is supposed to come with Fat.

Ben (22m 17s):

It does in nature always. There is no exception, zero exception of a natural protein coming just as protein. It always comes with Fat. Well, who do we think we are to, to pull those two apart? So I think Fat should come with protein. As much as I'm an advocate of prioritizing protein, don't fear the Fat that comes with it. And that's kind of my third rule.

Brian (22m 41s):

And would that be like the difference between having a Lean chicken breast and maybe like a rib eye?

Ben (22m 47s):

Absolutely, yes. Okay. And that's why I'm not an advocate of chicken. I think chicken, our obsession with chicken has become, it is one of the bigger shifts in the modern human diet. A hundred years ago we ate very little chicken. And that has become now the single most common source of animal protein in the diet by far. Nothing's even close to how much chicken we eat. And I think that's wrong. We used to keep chickens around for their eggs, which is a one to one mix of protein to Fat. Right. Kinda like a fatty cut of beef. Well, that's what we should do. That's what we should get back to in my mind.

Brian (23m 21s):

Yeah. And I, I noticed you mentioned something you talked about in the book a little bit about white adipose tissue and brown adipose tissue. I thought that would be a cool thing to talk about. And it's relation with cold therapy, right?

Ben (23m 35s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So most people wouldn't even know that there are these two different, very, very different types of Fat we have on the body. White Fat is the majority of the Fat that we have. Overwhelmingly, you know, on the average individual, the white adipose tissue or the white Fat would be well over 90%, 95 plus percent of the Fat that we have. And it is very white when you actually remove it from the VA body. It's very white because it's just Fat and, and Fat. These, these plain triglycerides, I mean, it almost looks like a little ball of squishy coconut oil. I mean, it's very white. In contrast, the brown adipose tissue, which humans typically have in this thoracic space is very brown because it's enriched with mitochondria.

Ben (24m 21s):

The, the Fat burning part of the cell, which has a reddish brown color. And there's so much of it that these Fat cells are very brown when you remove them. Interestingly, particularly in humans, because so much of our Fat is subcutaneous, or the Fat right below our skin, that Fat has the potential to kind of act like brown Fat. It doesn't become brown Fat per se. It becomes what we call beige Fat. It does get a little darker, it will have a little more mitochondria, but nothing as far as the actual brown Fat cells. But indeed, they have a much higher metabolic rate, which is kinda the purpose of the brown Fat. Brown Fat cells exist to burn Fat and make a lot of heat, whereas white Fat cells exist to store Fat and thus have a very low, low metabolic rate.

Ben (25m 9s):

About a 10th that of the brown Fat cells. But when Insulin goes down and ketones are up, we've published two papers on this topic, another one about to come out. Metabolic rate goes up a lot in the white Fat cells by about two or three times. And cold therapy when you are lowering the body temperature for a few minutes. And, and that takes some time in, in, in immersion, there's no substitute for immersion. A cold shower is fine. And I think it's not the same can be help. It is not the same. Yeah. No. And, and so the actual immersion in cold against the skin will activate the brown Fat, and not only the brown Fat here, but also stimulate those white Fat cells to start to shift into behaving more like brown Fat cells, or beige as we call them.

Brian (25m 57s):

I wanted to ask about quote there, because I actually recently put a cold plunger in my, in, in my house, and I've been using it like almost every day. And it's,

Ben (26m 5s):

You know, I I, I'll tell you Brian, I'm actually jealous. So I've been try, I've been talking to the athletic training facility here on campus. 'cause I know a lot of these guys and there are so many hurdles to me getting in to use their ice bath that I've just not been able to do it. Like, I can only go when the athletes aren't there and they gotta socially distance And, you know, you gotta be masked up. And I'm like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do all that stuff. And I also don't wanna be sitting in an ice bath with like a 300 pound lineman on the football team. you know,

Brian (26m 34s):

Just tell him you're the kicker. He won't know.

Ben (26m 38s):

Yeah. I'm the scrawny one on

Brian (26m 40s):

The team. Well, I will say you can, more and more companies are coming out with, with these plungers, and you can get one for not a crazy amount of money. And I will say it is like, not only just like, it's just, it, it's therapeutic. I really think, like, if, if just like ifs a game changer, if people are like, not that I'm like clinically depressed or anything But, it just makes you feel so good.

Ben (27m 5s):

And so do you keep it outside?

Brian (27m 7s):

So I don't, I have a room. It's like sort of off the house. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a sunroom,

Ben (27m 12s):

Kinda like a covered pa. Okay, okay.

Brian (27m 13s):

Yeah. Like a cover patio. Yeah, exactly. It's covered, but

Ben (27m 16s):

It's closed in. It's

Brian (27m 17s):

Closed in. You could, you could, you could have, I could have this outside if I wanted to, but I'm in Chicago and so Yeah. And, and filters the water. I mean, this one's really, I mean, I, I splurge on this one. But, it filters the water. You don't have to keep refilling it. I mean, it's great. I mean, yeah,

Ben (27m 34s):

Yeah. No kidding.

Brian (27m 35s):

But I recommend, I mean, you, you won't, yeah. I'm not a coffee drinker, but you don't need coffee anymore if you start start.

Ben (27m 41s):

Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I'm not either, I'm not a coffee drinker either, but I've, I'm so interested in, in really leaning into this. I'm gonna look into it. I'm enough. I I'm enough of an influencer Now. I'm just gonna get someone to send me one. Yeah. For goodness sakes.

Brian (27m 53s):

For sure. No, for sure. You should work that. Let's,

Ben (27m 55s):

I'll try. I'm gonna

Brian (27m 56s):

Work. It, it, it really is a game changer. Okay, we got off a little bit, but I just was curious about that. Why don't we touch a little bit about, well, I was thinking salt, salt and insulin Resistance. I, I think SALT has like a, this a, a sort of a bad name to it. you know, these low salt diets, just like the low Fat sort of trend that came a rock bound. But a lot of this stuff is sort of, is sort of going by the wayside. What are your thoughts on salt?

Ben (28m 25s):

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I think it's bonkers. So the obsession on salt is partly born from old studies that looked at something called the dash diet, the dietary approach, or I think approach to stop hy hypertension. Hmm. And, and, and, and in these studies they found that, you know, you, you follow the dash diet, which is a low salt diet, and indeed blood pressure drops pretty well and meaningfully. However, what these clowns don't wanna admit is that while the dash diet is yes, a low salt diet, it's also low in refined carbohydrates. Hmm. Well, they don't wanna acknowledge that. But the fact of the matter is Insulin is a water retaining hormone among its many, many effects throughout the entire body.

Ben (29m 9s):

Its effects indirectly at the kidney are to tell the kidney to retain salt and retain water. And, and, and so people kind of mix these up. What's interesting is that you, if you can put someone on a low carb diet, like, like we've done and we published a paper a few years ago, just low carb, they can eat as much salt as they want. Blood pressure just plummets. Hmm. And studies that have explicitly just teased out the salt alone, not the low carb or the low refined carb, which is part of the dash diet, which is a confounding Variable, when you just control the salt blood pressure drops like one or two points. Hmm. It's meaningless. It's totally, utterly meaningless.

Ben (29m 51s):

The tragedy in our low salt obsession is that the more and more you cut salt in the diet, the higher the insulin gets because insulin is a water retaining hormone and salt retaining hormone. And because salt is a molecule that is so essential for life, as you start cutting it in your diet, well then the body becomes all the more desperate to hold on to what it's got. Hmm. And so insulin climbs in order to try to keep that in. And as Insulin stays high, you become insulin resistant. There are actual human clinical interventional studies that have proven this. So this isn't even correlation slash coincidence. This is causality. The more someone is cutting salt, the more likely that they are becoming more and more Insulin resistant, ironically, all in an effort to try to hold on to the salt that they do have.

Brian (30m 40s):

Hmm. The body's amazing, isn't it?

Ben (30m 42s):

Yeah. Well, it's more complicated than people wanna admit, unfortunately.

Brian (30m 45s):

Yeah. So what would you recommend? I mean, I'm always thinking about, you know, I think about not, I think about salt all the time, but I, I do put like a good quality Redmond salt on, on all my meats and fishes and things like that. But is that enough? you know, that's the thing. Yeah,

Ben (30m 60s):

That's a, that's a good, that's a good question. I, you know, the, the guy who would ask, I encourage anyone to go see what James d nickel Antonio has said about this. I don't know a specific amount. My view on it is salt until you're satisfied, basically. And so I, I'm very liberal with salt. I added it, I added it, of course, very liberally on any meat that I'm eating. I added, I have a little low carb meal replacement shake that I help formulate. Oh yeah. And anyone, anyone who wants to learn, go to get health hlt h get health.com to learn more. I always, as much as we put Redmond salt in there already, I always add more. I just like things to be a little salty and my blood pressure's never been a problem.

Brian (31m 43s):

Yeah. Yeah. I I know there's a lot of companies coming out now where, you know, like Rob Wolf's company and things like that where you can Right. Add it to liquids and things like that. Yep. Why don't we touch a little bit on, on a hormone called leptin. I'm curious, 'cause you know, you talk about hunger and weight loss. I think they, they sort of go hand in hand. If you can sort of control your appetite, obviously that can control your weight loss goals. So what role does leptin play?

Ben (32m 11s):

Yeah, yeah. So leptin is un undeniably important when it comes to body weight regulation, but not necessarily in the way people think. So first of all, leptin is a hormone that, that does promote satiety in, in the hypothalamus, that kind of the hunger appetite center. And that's, that's its most famous effect. But that is not, I would say that's not why the, the, this individual or the organism starts to gain so much Fat. Because even if you, you calorie clamp them, they still get fatter than their normal in leptin litter mates. you know, when we're talking about rodents, which is the, you know, an ideal model just because leptin deficiencies in humans are so uncommon.

Ben (32m 52s):

But what people don't appreciate is that leptin is a powerful inhibitor of Insulin release. That when leptin goes up, it inhibits insulin production. And so thus, in the absence of leptin, to quote one of the scientists who studied this years ago, ge I think his name was Jeff Friedman, he said, Insulin goes through the roof in these animals that they're, even when you're Controlling for their diet, they have chronically very high levels of insulin. And of course that's going to promote Fat gain substantially. Leptin isn't going to promote Fat gain or, or blocking necessarily. It will certainly have a, an appetite re regulating effect. But so too does Insulin Insulin regulates appetite itself.

Ben (33m 35s):

And as you become more and more insulin resistant because of the flooding of the body with insulin, Insulin isn't enabled to regulate appetite as well. So as important as leptin is, it's no surprise, I'm sure for everyone listening, it's like they can roll their eyes and say, ah, man, of course Ben took it back to insulin only because it's justified everybody, you know, that's why I'm bringing it back to insulin, that you cannot really understand an obese model or an o an overweight organism with promoting Fat gain unless you understand insulin. Any other signal is just kind of a, a secondary input. And insulin's going to be the main signal.

Brian (34m 13s):

Now I know, you've talked about this on a few other Podcasts regarding the difference between, you know, we're all caught up in what our fasting glucose glucose is and we're sort of shunning or not measuring our fasting insulin But. it really should be the other way around, right?

Ben (34m 30s):

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I, I consider one of the tragedies of modern medicine is that our, we have a such a, an obsession with glucose when our obsession should be with Insulin, especially now that it is so measurable, but of course still unfortunately much harder to measure than glucose. And that's why glucose is gonna be hard to, to kind of kick out of that primary position. It thinks it's the hero, but it's actually the sidekick in the story insulin's the, the main character here. But it's just hard to measure Insulin. you know, if you and I wanna know what our insulin levels are, we gotta go draw blood and that blood's, that's gotta go to the lab and then the doctor's office will let us know what the results are.

Ben (35m 10s):

There is no rapid, let alone real time way to measure insulin. Like there is glucose, you know, I'm wearing a continuous glucose monitor through levels, levels health, and, and I can know what my glucose levels are anytime. It's just scientifically so much easier to measure glucose. And there are so many groups around the world trying to get real time measurements of insulin.

Brian (35m 34s):

Yeah. I would imagine it's gotta be,

Ben (35m 36s):

There are some very smart people. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's so complicated. Hmm. It's so hard to do that, to be frank. I don't see it happening within the next five years. I think it's five to 10 years out before we get that kind of technology.

Brian (35m 49s):

So what are some of the maybe measurements that people should go that, you know, obviously now with like, you know, these lab corps and things, you can go walk in labs and get, what, what are some of maybe of the top ones that individuals can just go do on their own along, you know, other than obviously fasting, Insulin, was there anything else that people should keep an eye on?

Ben (36m 7s):

Yeah. Yeah. But let me just beat that drum one more time. If someone can get in and get their Insulin measured, if, if it's fasting and your insulin's less than six microunits per mil, that's really, really good. You're doing great. If it's under 10, you're probably doing fine as well. And then as it gets up into the teens, then that's kind of a, a warning. And if it's up into the twenties and it is in some people red light, you gotta make some changes. However, the problem with Insulin is like most hormones, it has a rhythm to it. And so it's possible that someone's come in and they've measured their insulin at the peak. Right. you know, the perfectly wrong time. There's no way to predict that unfortunately. Well then all the more reason to Lean on a different marker, which is the triglyceride to HDL ratio, take your fasting triglycerides and divide it by your HDL cholesterol and that, that is a surprisingly accurate predictor of insulin Resistance.

Ben (36m 56s):

And if that triglyceride to HDL ratio is less than 1.5, then you're doing really good.

Brian (37m 2s):

I just did mine actually.

Ben (37m 4s):

I was, pull that out. Pull that out, man. Yeah,

Brian (37m 6s):

Here it is. I was 0.45.

Ben (37m 9s):

Oh, you dynamite. Okay. You're doing great. That cold bath, that cold bath is working brother.

Brian (37m 14s):

Oh god. Yeah. Yeah. I, 'cause I keep hearing that come up and I was like, oh, I just got some blood work. It's interesting thing, my blood work is across the board, I think solid. I'm not gonna go through everything. But the one thing that it, it just spikes is the fasting glucose for some reason. Like it was 1 0 7. And I, I don't know if that's physiological insulin, you know, but that, that's a totally different thing. Right? Yeah.

Ben (37m 41s):

Yeah. So, you know what, so once upon a time that would've been considered a normal number. Right? Did you know that? So over the years, what was cons? What's been considered a normal glucose level has been pushed down, down further, further, further. I don't know the reason for this, the cynical reason, and I admit the older I get, the more cynical I'm becoming. I think by, by having a stricter, more strict glucose cutoff, it's a great way to put people on medications earlier. Right. Basic 'cause. 'cause you, they, someone might say to you, Brian, you're, you're pre-diabetic, we gotta put you on metformin here. I'd be like, it, it basically, I know it's cynical. Yeah. But it's a really good way to sell more drugs.

Ben (38m 21s):

No doubt. And, and so you tell me your glucose is 1 0 7 and that your insulin's good, your triglyceride HTL ratio's good. I'd say you're fine man. Right. I don't think there's any reason to be worried. But also if you had done some cold therapy earlier that day, for example, that's a stress on the system now. It's a therapeutic stress. But any stress is associated with at least some acute increase in glucose. There's no way around it. Same goes with exercise. Same goes with a sauna. If it's a stress on the system, glucose will climb for a time or you had a bad night of sleep, which actually goes through the same mechanisms that the cold there and stress does with sauna and et cetera. But nevertheless, there are so many variables that can play into just manipulating your glucose levels, even for just a few hours at a time that if you're all, all your other numbers are good, then you're, you're solid in my view.

Ben (39m 11s):


Brian (39m 11s):

About measuring ketones? Is this something you Yeah,

Ben (39m 13s):

Yeah. Yeah. So I think ketones are helpful only, well, multiple reasons. But one reason is that if you have detectable levels of ketones, then you, your insulin level is low because Insulin inhibits ketogenesis so, so powerfully that if you're making ketones, that is an inverse indicator basically. Or it's, it's proof positive that your insulin is low.

Brian (39m 40s):

Okay. Yeah. you know, regarding fasting glucose, there's a few people that have told me in the low carb space that, you know, and I'm not like, I don't necessarily count carbs, but I'm, I know it's very low and I've been doing it for a while. They said maybe perhaps having day, a day of more car, higher carb day just to, I don't know, just to get the body used to using maybe different fuel sources. you know, I don't know. You, you thought on, I don't like se you know, Dr. Sino has started to implement days of higher carbs along with his carnivore, you know, ish diet. Yeah.

Ben (40m 16s):

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, so I don't know of any published research on that. Okay. And so I always wanna be careful because, you know, I'm the PhD here, And, you know, I, I wanna rely on data all the time. So I'm unaware of any data that have been published on that topic. Okay. However, however, there is certainly something to be said for, I don't wanna say it that way. There's no doubt that by, if you eat carbs from time to time, you do, I, I have to say this, although I re I regret that people will misunderstand it perhaps a little bit. If you wanna maintain the most, the, the highest level of metabolic flexibility, which is the ability to shift between carbs and fats very readily, then you would want to have carbs from time to time.

Ben (41m 8s):

Now, someone would hear me say that and say, oh, done, I'm in, I want maximal me metabolic flexibility. Metabolic flexibility only matters if you are eating carbs from time to time. For example, if someone doesn't eat carbs for 48 hours, their, their, their pancreas stops making insulin. Not bec not because it's sick or anything. It, it just is, it's almost as if the pancreas is sampling the blood thinking, ah, we're not getting any glucose spikes anymore. and we got all this insulin that we've made and have, we we're holding it here packaged ready to go. That's something called the first phase of insulin. Like if you and I were to go and eat a bagel, if we were to measure our insulin kind of five minutes at a time, it would go like this and like that.

Ben (41m 55s):

There's two phases. The first phase is the release of all the insulin the pancreas already has. The second phase is the release of all the Insulin. It starts making from scratch. So it's basically like this factory with a warehouse. And the warehouse is holding all the pre-made insulin and the factory's ready to be flicked on at the moment. It needs to, to start making more Insulin But, it takes a, you know, a little bit of time for it to do. So. If you, if you cut your carbs, even if you just fast for 24 hours, not even low carb, you get rid of the warehouse, you, you will get rid of the, the, the pancreas is so determined to be efficient that it's looking at all this Insulin and just 16 or 18 hours into a fast.

Ben (42m 37s):

It basically starts to say, ah, it looks like we don't need this. After all, let's start just tearing down the boxes and throw all the insulin away. And it will literally break the insulin back down into its component amino acids. Thus, if you and I were then to go eat a bagel after having fasted for 24 hours, not to mention been on a low carb ketogenic diet for several weeks, we lose the first phase. And So, we eat that bagel. Now our glucose has a little longer time to get higher because it's waiting for the factory to start making new insulin. We still bring it back down. But, it took a little longer. In contrast, we eat that bagel and you and I eat another bagel about six hours later, after everything is settled back down, our glucose won't go as high.

Ben (43m 20s):

It'll go up and it'll come down and a much more expected pattern because the beta cells now we're thinking, ah, we're gonna start doing this again, All, right. Let's fill the warehouse again with all the preformed insulin. So what happens is when you adhere to a low carb diet, or you just fast for 24 hours, you lose the first phase of insulin release and thus become a little more glucose intolerant, not insulin resistant. Brian, anyone who tells you that a low carb diet causes insulin Resistance, you laugh in their face that is demonstrably false. They do not become Insulin resistant, even physiological insulin resistant people who say that don't know the hell they're talking about, that's not true. They become glucose intolerant, which is not the same thing.

Ben (44m 3s):

And it's acute, it's corrected the one time you eat some Carbs eat Carbs again a few hours later. And everything's as right as it ever was, even better than ever. So there's something to be said if someone wants to be metabolically flexible and eat carbs from time to time and have it have minimal effect. And if you're a honey lover, then you would wanna do that, well then fine. If however you're all in and you are Controlling your insulin and having ketones to help with your migraine headaches or your seizures, or you wanna get off your type two diabetes medication, then there's no reason to cycle out of a low carb diet and have deliberate periods of eating carbs.

Ben (44m 42s):

That's just, that's a liberty that those that are already metabolically healthy can, can afford to take. But I'm not saying there's no justification for it. Brian. Again, if someone's singular goal is to have maximal metabolic flexibility, then you do want to put carbs in there. Most people nowadays are metabolically inflexible, stuck in the sugar burning mode, the carb burning or glucose burning because their Insulin is chronically elevated and insulin is what dictates which fuel you're using. In contrast, people that have been adhering to a ketogenic diet for a prolonged period, they are metabolically inflexible kind of in the other way. They're stuck in Fat burning, if you will. Now, I say stuck. But I lose that term loosely because to get out of it, all they gotta do is eat some carbs in their right back to being metabolically flexible.

Brian (45m 29s):

What would you say to someone that's, as majority of people I would say are, that are sort of stuck in this glucose burning mode, the sugar burning mode Yeah. To get, to get out of that and get into more of a Fat burning mode.

Ben (45m 41s):

Yeah, yeah. Well it, it is all about lowering Insulin. That is literally the reason why they're stuck in sugar burning. It's because if you're Insulin resistant insulin Resistance is, and always is a state of elevated Insulin. And and that's why when people wanna invoke physiological insulin Resistance in the context of a low carb diet, I laugh in their face and I invite you to do the same. Brian, let's not be polite about it. It's because those are low insulin states and you cannot have insulin Resistance without elevated Insulin. And that's the problem. The people that are metabolically inflexible stuck in sugar burning, it's because their Insulin is chronically elevated. Well start fasting, start adopting a low carb or controlled carb diet, the Insulin will come down And.

Ben (46m 24s):

now you are burning Fat.

Brian (46m 26s):

What, what are some good tips? I noticed in your book, and I'm curious your thoughts, and obviously if it was in the book, you obviously agree with it to some degree, is apple cider vinegar. Yeah,

Ben (46m 34s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I put it in there so I

Brian (46m 37s):

Yeah, I figured, yeah. Embrace it. you know, you Yeah. But

Ben (46m 41s):

I did not have a ghost writer. And just for the record. Well,

Brian (46m 44s):

You know, the, although, you know, it's interesting 'cause some people come out with books and then, you know, you change your thoughts for sure. I'm sure you've had for Right. For sure. you

Ben (46m 50s):

Know, I'm sure you've had Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yeah, there are, there are indeed some things in the book that if I do a second edition I'd like to update, but that's not one of them. So there's no question. Apple cider vinegar, like take two tablespoons a day helps improve insulin sensitivity, let alone taking a shot of it. Right. When you're about to eat your starchy, most starchy or sugary snack or meal of the day, but

Brian (47m 11s):

Before Before,

Ben (47m 12s):

Yep. Yeah, before. Yep. It'll absolutely bring down the glucose and the insulin. There's just something about it altering glucose, digestion and absorption, improving insulin sensitivity, which it does in, in, in increasing mitochondrial biogenesis, like literally stimulating the synthesis of new mitochondria. I, to me, apple cider vinegar, that's kind of like, what, what honey is to Paul Saladino apple cider vinegar is to me, you know, he loves his honey. And I, I'm a pretty big advocate of apple cider vinegar. Part of it is born from my affection for fermenting, which, which is ironic because I don't drink alcohol and that's like one of the most popular fermented things. Neither, but, but I'm a, I'm a fan of fermenting and I think that there's, we've lost something in that as much as there are people who kind of espouse these kind of primal eating, well, what about fermenting?

Ben (48m 6s):

That was a part of a, a of, of an ancient diet that when our ancestors had carbohydrates and they wanted to preserve them to any degree, they would ferment these because they didn't have refrigeration, they didn't have ways of preserving the food. And when you ferment a food or, or dairy the bacteria or eating the sugars from that. And so then what we end up eating has a much lower sugar starch content than it did before. At the same time, when bacteria ferment, they're different from our cells. When we ferment, they make short chain fatty acids, whereas we make, you know, something like lactate, they make short chain fats and short chain fats are vinegar among them, among a couple others.

Ben (48m 50s):

But vinegar is a Fat, it is a Fat, a fatty acid is a, it is the shortest of all the fats in, in possible. Hmm. And, and they're tart short. The short chain fats have a very tart flavor, which I love. I love the tartness. I'm

Brian (49m 4s):

Sorry, mented food. Do you, do you ferment your own foods or do you buy fermented food?

Ben (49m 7s):

Yeah, so I, for a time we would ferment our own dairy. I liked making kefi for the kids especially, and I would drink it too. And I would add some, like whole strawberries into it and blend it up as smoothies for the kids. And they loved it. We just got out of the habit because I got too busy. And you gotta, these little kind of dairy fermenting cultures, you gotta treat 'em like little babies almost. Right. you know, they need a lot of attention. So no, I'm not committed enough to do my own fermenting, but I like to buy unfiltered raw apple cider vinegar. Same goes with sauerkraut, unpasteurized unfiltered sauerkraut and an unsweetened whole Fat kefi or, or this kind of fermented dairy.

Ben (49m 51s):

And the same yogurt is a fermented dairy too. Of course.

Brian (49m 54s):

Yeah. And Now I was just gonna say, I know we're getting up to it here, but I could probably talk for, maybe we'll do a part two. Yeah. And in the, and and in the part two, I want to hear about your cold plunging.

Ben (50m 5s):

I cold plunging.

Brian (50m 5s):

Yeah. You said you were gonna get into it, so maybe Well,

Ben (50m 8s):

I want, yeah, I want to, I, you know, I just gotta, what I need you to do is send me your contact at that company and I'm gonna say, Hey, I'm a little bit of an influencer And now I'll do a reel or something. It

Brian (50m 17s):

Never hurts to ask. Right.

Ben (50m 18s):

Well, I'm gonna try because I'm a professor, so I can't afford a cold bat. They don't pay me that much.

Brian (50m 23s):

You know, Brad Kearns, you know, Brad Kearns, he does a, he's a buddy of mine in the podcasting world, but he does a video on how he just has his own homemade one and it's, you know, you could just go to Home Depot and make your own And. you know, it's not, it's not a bad way to go. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben (50m 37s):


Brian (50m 38s):

Kidding. you know, start that way. So yeah, my, my thought was that, hey, when

Ben (50m 42s):

You do it, do you go all the way, you know, do you go over your head sometimes and hold your breath for a few seconds? Or is it just kinda up to your neck?

Brian (50m 47s):

Yeah, so right. I go up to my neck, like I did it last night. I go up to my neck for about, you know, two to three minutes and then the last maybe 10, 15 seconds I'll dunk.

Ben (50m 57s):

Okay. And then that's it. You're done. That's

Brian (50m 59s):


Ben (50m 59s):

You get out, towel off and try to

Brian (51m 2s):

Uncover unthaw. Unthaw. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. you know, I don't like to jump right into a, into like a warm shower. I like to just settle for a little bit and then, and then I'll go into the warmth.

Ben (51m 13s):

Love it, man. Love it. It's

Brian (51m 15s):

The e it's the cheapest hack. Easiest hack, I

Ben (51m 18s):

Think. Yeah. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna just go into those. To hell with those 300 pound linemen, I'm gonna say, Hey, move over. And they'll say, who are you? And I'll say, I'm Dr. Bikman, your little schmuck. You make room.

Brian (51m 28s):

Yeah. You

Ben (51m 28s):

Don't know who I am.

Brian (51m 32s):

A few more questions then we'll finish up. Yeah. Dairy, thoughts on dairy? I've actually been, I have a farm not that close, but 45 minutes away that I got some raw dairy from. But I guess what's your overall writing thought on dairy? And, and does it, does it bri raise insulin quite a bit or no? Yeah.

Ben (51m 49s):

Yes, absolutely. It does increase insulin. My view, Now I don't mean to then suggest that it's something to be strictly avoided. I am an advocate of actually raw dairy. If that's a healthy cow, that's healthy milk. And I love it. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a fan of that, but always whole milk. Right. That is all we get in the Bikman home. In my home. It's only whole milk. I don't drink a lot of milk, only because I look at milk as a food for growth. Right. And, and it's high in all three macronutrients, which is why there's a, you know, a decent insulin spike, but, but nothing like, you know, junk food, like even a piece of bread. But, but it's high in all three macronutrients, which is perfectly formulated to help.

Ben (52m 33s):

So, so that mommy mammal can make baby mammal grow quickly. Well, I'm done growing, but, but sometimes I'll drink it, but mostly it's for the kids. I'm eager for them to drink milk anytime they want. I don't drink it too much, but I do sometimes.

Brian (52m 50s):

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you can get raw milk. I've been getting it for the last few months. It's, yep. Yeah. So much better than regular. Well, we're getting on in here. What's the best way for people to, I know you mentioned you have the meal replacement, which is HLTH code, right? Health Code. Yep. Yep.

Ben (53m 7s):

Health Code. Yep, that's right. Yeah. And the website is Get Health and, and people can see the blog there. I have blog and, and video content. And then, and get the shake. Anyone who's interested, use by all means, use the code Ben 10 BEN one zero to get a 10% off it. It's a great, I think it's the best meal replacement shake out there. Of course, I made it, but I made it because I just didn't think there was a good one out there. So PE by all means, everyone go learn more about it. If you guys give it a try, I can practically guarantee you'll love it. And then other than that, I'm mostly active on Instagram, frankly. Which is funny because when I first got involved in social media a number of years ago, which was totally because I knew I was gonna write a book and I wanted to be able to kind of market it myself.

Ben (53m 52s):

Right. I was mostly involved in Twitter, and I've come to hate Twitter. Brian, I don't know how you feel. Every time I engage on Twitter, I regret it. Honestly, it doesn't even matter what it is. So I only mostly get on Twitter now to follow college football and basketball. Actually, it's just college sports now and then. And then I've kind of shifted to Instagram, which is just a, it's kind of a better medium for me. And I never would've admitted this about, even about a year ago. But nevertheless, that's my long-winded wave of saying find me on Instagram. I typically do about one or two videos a week. Yeah. Always about human nutrition. It's nothing kind of me posing, you know, with AP sign in front of like a stake or something. It's just, it's just me do kind of doing a little kind of classroom session, usually about a minute.

Brian (54m 34s):

Yeah, I noticed that.

Ben (54m 34s):

Can find me there. Ben, Bickman, PhD.

Brian (54m 36s):

Yeah, they add an or free on it. Well, Instagram, Facebook, but Facebook too. It Facebook publishes on Facebook as well. That's right. And then obviously the book, Why We. Get Sick. Great book. Just to use as a reference. And in the back, I love the fact that you, you know, you give action steps and tips, you know, like apple cider vinegar and things like this and, and, and foods that aren't, aren't gonna raise Insulin. Yeah.

Ben (54m 58s):

Yeah. In fact, in fact, let's let, I'll make that plug, guys. Go buy some shake. Go buy my book so I can afford to have a cold bath like Brian.

Brian (55m 6s):

We'll see if we can get you one, and then we'll do, we'll, we'll do a part two. How about that? Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on.

Ben (55m 14s):

Oh, my pleasure. This was fun. In fact, everyone, pardon me if I'm a little cheeky, I guess I'm a little punch drunk this time of day. Brian just brings out the cheekiness in me.

Brian (55m 22s):

No, this is great. you know, I've listened to a lot of your interviews and I'm like, how can we make this a little bit different? But I think we've touched on a ton of great information that people could

Ben (55m 29s):

Yeah, this was, yeah. Yeah. There's some gems here. Yeah. Thanks. I really enjoyed it. Thanks again for reaching out.

Brian (55m 34s):

No, my pleasure. And have a great day. Thank you.

Ben (55m 37s):

Thanks, brother.

Brian (55m 40s):

Thanks for listening to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other Podcasts out there, and you've chosen to listen to mine, and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned, In, this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Dr. Ben Bikman

Dr. Bikman’s research focus is to elucidate the molecular mechanisms that mediate the disruption that causes and accompanies metabolic disorders, such as obesity, type 2 diabetes, and dementia. Driven by his academic training (Ph.D. in Bioenergetics and postdoctoral fellowship with the Duke-National University of Singapore in metabolic disorders), he is currently exploring the contrasting roles of insulin and ketones as key drivers of metabolic function. He frequently publishes his research in peer-reviewed journals and presents at international science meetings.


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