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episode #181

Keto / Intermittent Fasting Masterclass with Robert Sikes aka Keto Savage and Brian Gryn!

October 8, 2022 in Podcast


I'm joined by the Keto Savage himself, Robert Sikes, for a sit down discussion regarding the most common questions around the keto diet and intermittent fasting. We dove into ways to get started and succeed in both areas. We also discussed: - The main benefits of the Keto Diet - Foods to Eat with Quality Fats - The Correct Times to Fast - Tips to Overcome Hunger - Transitioning to the Keto Diet and much much more!

0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast, 1 (4s): Going back to basics, simply eating good quality single ingredient, wholesome natural animal-based foods, and then improving their activity, training hard and sleeping good. Like that's really interesting going to be the most bang for their proverbial buck. So doing that, you know, it was going to be key. And then honestly, just having a long game mentality and approach towards their diet and lifestyle, like so many people try and do these quick, you know, cut schemes, like, you know, 60 days for six pack AMS and all this stuff. And it's just not that you can't do it, but it's just not the life that you'd want to live in the first place. Like I would like to, I would like to encourage people to figure out what they can maintain and be excited about adhering to every single day and then just make it a habit to double down on those every single day. 1 (49s): And then if you do that over a long period of time, the benefits that you're going to keep compounding, and I feel like that is the conversation in the mindset that we all need to adopt. 0 (59s): Hello and welcome to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was in five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. All right, we've got a special week this week, myself and Robert Sykes of keto Savage did Akido intermittent fasting masterclass. And we sat down and answered a lot of the common questions that come up around keto dieting and intermittent fasting. We dove into ways to get started and succeed in both areas. We also touched on the main benefits of the keto diet foods to eat with quality fats, right times to fast tips, to overcome hunger transitioning into the keto diet and much, much more. 0 (1m 47s): So hopefully you enjoy this. This was a little bit different than just an interview interview format, and hopefully we get some good value from it. So I appreciate you listening and enjoy the masterclass. All right, welcome to the keto intermittent fasting masterclass, and I have keto specialist, Robert Sikes of keto savage.com and keto brick.com. Welcome to the welcome to the masterclass. 1 (2m 13s): Hey man. Thanks for having me always a pleasure. 0 (2m 15s): Yeah, thanks for coming on. I wanted to find the best of the best and I got them here. So my thoughts around this masterclass was to, you know, find frequently asked questions that come up for my clients and just from the internet around fasting and around, you know, the keto diet, because they seem to run hand in hand and for the most part, try to achieve the same goal. But I think there's just a lot of questions. And as you know, like what the keto diet was seven years ago has sort of evolved and changed maybe in a lot of people's eyes or maybe there's even more confusion around it. So that was part of the reason why and the same thing with fasting, you know, it's like the more time things go go by, there's 80 different versions of, of it. 0 (3m 2s): And I thought we could just bring it back to like, okay, you know, here are the basics, there are ways to get started and just run them through a bunch of different scenarios that work. So, 1 (3m 14s): Yeah, it sounds great to me, man. I feel like, you know, ketogenic diet, intermittent fasting, sometimes even extended medicine, they all kind of go hand to man. So trying to figure out how it works for the individual is, is key. 0 (3m 24s): Yeah, no doubt. And there's definitely a self-experimentation so anything we say, you know, take it with a grain of salt. This is stuff that we've done maybe on our own or with our clients and it works for them or for us, but, you know, it's sort of, it is sort of a journey for everyone individuals to, to find what is like the best mesh that fits into their lifestyle 1 (3m 45s): And totally agree. Totally agree. 0 (3m 47s): Okay, cool. So let's start, let's just start real basic. What's your definition of a keto diet and ketosis? 1 (3m 57s): Yeah, so I actually, this was kind of one of the topics of my presentation at Quito comes past a week or two. I would separate the definition of ketosis and ketogenic diet as being two separate things. Ketosis is simply a metabolic state in which the body is burning fat and ketones for fuel as a result of there being a, you know, deficit of carbohydrates and glucose. And I would define the ketogenic diet as a diet that prioritizes the body's burning of fat and a fuel while allowing for optimal performance. I feel like by not separating those two, a lot of people lead to confusion. For instance, if you were to believe that the, you know, being in ketosis is simply the only prerequisite for following a ketogenic diet, based off of my level of activity, I can eat a single apple a day and maintain a state of ketosis that would be producing enough ketone bodies. 1 (4m 50s): It'd be burning through that little bit of glucose in that apple. But I would argue that at apple and Dane, not as not a really good representation of a ketogenic diet, so I like to differentiate the two there. So for me, you know, ketosis is certainly just 0.5 millimolar or higher on a, you know, ketone strip. But for me, a ketogenic diet is a diet that consists of, you know, an optimal protein intake, a higher fat approach, very low to minimal carbohydrate so that your body is able to prioritize fat and ketones as the primary fuel source. 0 (5m 19s): Okay. No, I like it. Yeah. They're definitely, definitely agree with you the fact that you want to differentiate the two. Now, if we're talking keto diet, do you think of it as almost ratios? You know, cause like I know the sort of the clinical profile was like four to one where it'd be like, let's just say for example, 400 grams of fat okay. Per day. And then you'd have like, let's just say 90 grams of protein, 10 grams of carbs. That was that's four to one ratio for, you know, but from fat to the other macros. But now that was probably more of a clinical for perhaps kids with kids with, excuse me, excuse me. 0 (6m 2s): I drew a blank seizures, but would you say there's, there's an optimal ratio that you look for or that you do with your clients? 1 (6m 8s): Yeah. It's like if you Google the Webster's definition of ketogenic diet is going to say something like high fat, low to moderate protein, very minimal carbohydrate for children of epileptic seizures. But I find that's a very small subset of our demographic actually following a ketogenic diet. And because of that, you seen this massive influx of different versions of the ketogenic diet. You got targeted keto, cyclical, Aquino, high protein, keto, high fat Keno, protein sparing modified fast. And it's like, that's kind of where all this confusion stems from. So I would define it not so much as a strict macro distribution percentage parameters per se, but it can kind of be somewhere within a window. So like for me, I'm typically somewhere between 65 and 80% of my calories coming from bachelor fat. 1 (6m 54s): And depending on if I'm in a building phase or in a cutting phase, those those are going to shift on a sliding scale slightly. Like there might be times where my protein's a bit higher on my fats, a bit lower where my fan is a bit higher. I mean, I'm always, the majority of my counters are always coming from that tray fan. I never really ever have an instance in which protein or certainly not carbohydrates exceeds the caloric load of my fat intake. So that would be a, I would think a pretty solid prerequisite for following a ketogenic diet. If you're having higher percentage of calories coming from carbs and fat, you're probably not in ketosis, but yeah, I feel like that that range, that window can be very different for everybody. But generally speaking sometimes somewhere within about 65 and 85% of total calories coming from dietary fat and optimal protein or ample protein rather to build and sustain, you know, linked tissue mass. 0 (7m 44s): Yeah. And we always hear about prioritizing protein and how important that is. Have you found that maybe since you've been doing the keto diet and obviously I know you do some natural bodybuilding, have you found that the protein part of things has actually sort of gone on the rise a little bit more well sort of taking place of another macronutrient? 1 (8m 4s): Certainly as of late that's been the talk of the town is just always prioritizing protein, eating more protein, but I feel like the pendulum has swung so far in that direction that it's starting to have an adverse effect. You know, you know, rewind two, three years ago, everybody was talking about eating a whole bunch of dietary fat at the exclusion of protein and that wasn't optimal. And now everybody's talking about eating a whole bunch of protein, the exclusion of dietary fat. And I don't think that's optimal either. I mean, I feel like the answer lies somewhere in the middle because he thinking about it, you know, you, you met, you have to be eating enough calories at the onset. So like if you're only consuming a thousand calories, then yeah, you need to make sure you're eating a pretty good percentage of those calories from protein. But I don't recommend anybody only consume a thousand calories. Whereas if you're consuming like me, for instance, I'm at about 3000 calories a day as a maintenance. 1 (8m 50s): So I'm able to consume, you know, 150 200 grams of protein and still maintain north of 70% of my calories coming from bachelor fan while consuming that higher protein intake. So consuming ample calories in general is a really important prerequisite for making sure you get those proper macros, you know, distributed. Cause I feel like if you're not eating enough, then you're not going to perform at an optimal level, whether you've got a high protein ratio or a lower protein ratio and a higher fat intake, you have to make sure eating enough, total calories. 0 (9m 20s): Okay. And one of the questions that comes up a lot about is what are some of the main benefits of the keto diet? 1 (9m 26s): Yeah. So for, for me, it's been a as a natural Bondi butter, it's been kind of two fold one. I look at it from a performance standpoint, my ability to preserve lean muscle tissue in the context of a caloric deficit has been significantly improved. It's typical to see a drop in lean mass and skeletal muscle tissue when you're dialing down for a show. And it's possible that I lose some muscle still within a ketogenic state, but I don't lose near as much muscle as I did with a traditional bro diet, tying carbohydrates higher in protein and lower and Fen. And I think a lot of that is due to the fact that having a diet higher dietary fat helps keep hormone levels at a stable level or more so stable level, especially as a natural bodybuilder. 1 (10m 8s): So that, that acts as a, you know, muscle preservative as well. So I'm able to train harder, I'm able to feel better and that just makes dietary, you know, cut for prep much more sustainable for me. But then as a business owner, I've noticed a significant boost in my just mental cognition and, and, you know, acuity with a ketogenic diet, as opposed to traditional diets, I'm able to focus. I don't have a negative relationship with food any longer. I'm able to go longer between meals and my productivity has just enhanced significantly. 0 (10m 37s): Yeah. That, that's probably the biggest thing for me. I, you know, we'll get into fasting and we'll talk a little bit about fasting, but that's part of the reason why I do enjoy doing, you know, some type of fasting and low carb. Like even today I had, I had a little pre pre-workout meal, but very, I didn't hit need a lot. And, and I, my mental acuity, my energy was still there. I didn't feel way like normally if I would have a higher carb meal, I feel like it would weigh me down a little bit and mainly had protein and fat and just found my energy levels just as good as they were almost in a fasted state. What, what would you say the main components as far as eating, you know, cause you hear a lot about, you know, higher fat, how are you getting that fat and, and how do you track that? 1 (11m 23s): Yeah, so I track like when I'm in a prep, especially I'm tracking all my macros, I'm using an app called my macros plus, but any of them do about the same thing. So my fitness pal chronometer, you know, any of those work as long as you're consistently using it, but I'll try and get the vast majority of my calories from good quality animal sources from ideally from a place where I know the sourcing. So I also hunt. So I'll, I'll have a bunch of wild game, wild venison in the freezer. And then I can pull from which is very lean. So to bounce that that really lean meats I'll have a bunch of added dietary fence. And for me that oftentimes take the form of the keto brick, you know, like that that's a 90 grams of dietary fat right there. The majority of which is coming from cacao butter, which is the greatest source of steric acid. 1 (12m 8s): There's been a whole bunch of benefits that have been associated with steric acid. So I typically use that as a solid dose of <inaudible>, but I'll also get, you know, heavy cream in my coffee, I'll cook with olive oil or avocado oil. I'll put butter on my steaks, I'll use, you know, full fat dairy things of that nature. So I get a pretty good source of dietary fat just from those those means. And then also opt for fattier cuts of meat if I'm not going the venison round. So, you know, like an 80, 20 ground beef or something of that nature. 0 (12m 37s): Okay. Very cool. And just pulling up some of the fasting questions and we can touch on that. Here's one of them is, is there a right way to fast? And I mean, I feel like this is, this is a common question because people think there's like this perfect window. And my, and my answer to this would probably be, say, no, I always say like the two rules of thumb to follow or don't eat right when you get up and don't, you don't have to eat like maybe give yourself two to three hours before bed. So it doesn't sort of get in the way of quality sleep and digestion. So, I mean, I would say most people in the U S E probably from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM and they have this long 12 hour window. 0 (13m 19s): So one of the things I love about fasting is it's just a way to sort of create some structure in the day and give you a little bit of boundaries. Cause I feel like if you don't get boundaries, when it comes to eating whatever the diet is, whether it's, you know, a keto diet, vegetarian or pescatarian or carnivore, then if you don't have these boundaries, then it's easy to do. Like late night eating is a big one, right? Like just snacking and eating sort of like just eating out of boredom. Do, do have sort of thoughts on like the right way to, to fast or the right window. 1 (13m 55s): I would say that the like from a very high level, I would say the right way is the most sustainable for the individual because it's going to be, you know, far in different for the vast array of people personally, I like to train fast and, and then there'll be times where I'll train in the afternoon. Like today I'm training in the afternoon, for instance, but generally I like to train facet in the morning hours. So all fast throughout that morning window. And then I'll typically break my fast with my first meal falling around somewhere between 11 and 2:00 PM. And I'll have a heavy green coffee in the morning before I train. So that's technically breaking my fast. It's kind of more of a fat, fast protocol. And for my intentions of fasting that works like I'm not trying to mitigate, you know, cancer cell growth or anything like that. 1 (14m 38s): I'm just trying to keep my blood sugar stable in the morning hours. So a little bit of heavy cream in my coffee is not really going to disrupt then. And then I'll try to pretty much just have two meals a day, one around that noon timeframe. And then again, my final meal around 5, 6, 7, o'clock in the African the evening. And that's pretty much my feeding window. I don't really worry so much about getting a pre-workout meal or a immediate post-workout meal. I kind of let it fall when it's convenient. And honestly, when it comes to extended fasting, it really just depends on where you're at in your building and cutting phase. I see a lot of people trying to do extended fast while also trying to die down. They're trying to do extended fast, primarily for weight loss, which I don't really ever recommend. 1 (15m 21s): Being in a deficit is quite a stressor on the body. Being in a fastest state is a stress from the body. There's definitely a hormetic effect there, but if you're doing too many stressors all at once, you're not really going to get the most bang for your buck. So I only really do extended fasting when I'm in a caloric surplus in a building phase. And then I save and you know, the, the cutting phases just to do the intermittent fasting. 0 (15m 42s): Okay. Yeah. Your schedule's fairly similar to mine. I mean, you see all these different types of schedules as far as fasting, and like you said, I agree. I think it's all about what are what's sustainable for you? Like what fits in your lifestyle, if you really value eating dinner with your family, then don't skip, don't skip dinner. Like for the most part, I would say for most of my clients, dinner is the most important meal of the day for them with their families and or socially. So, you know, make that the forefront of it and maybe skip breakfast or even, you know, even skip lunch, whatever, whatever sort of works. I would say whatever your most busy time of the day is probably the time to skip it, you know, and give yourself like for you, you know, you, do you work out in a fastest state, you probably do a lot of work in the morning, like myself, my afternoon tea, it's time. 0 (16m 30s): It's sort of, I wind down a little bit. I don't have to do like, you know, maybe any like thinking tasks that much in the afternoon, all that's done in the morning and a facet state. So those are good sort of guidelines to follow because you'll see, you know, there's alternative fasting. There is like a five, two there's like even like this circadian fasting, I think eating around around where the sun rises and falls. I mean, there could be some, some benefits around that, not eating too late at night and, but either way, the one that's sustainable is the way to go. Here's another question. What are some tips to overcome hunger? 0 (17m 11s): What do you think about that? 1 (17m 12s): So when I'm in a fast, like when talking about fasting, I'm assuming hunger while fasting, so I'm a big fan of just making sure I'm getting enough electrolytes first and foremost, and drinking an ample water. And depending on how loose you want to be with your fasting rules, all oftentimes use like a bull young cube, which are really high in sodium, but I'll just simply melt one of those then in some boiling water. And it's almost like a broth. So you're drinking that it's kind of like a soup, but there's not really any caloric load to it. Plus it's a really good way to get those minerals in. So I'll do like a bullion cube, but honestly just, just making sure my water and looked lots are dialed in. I'll just stay busy, honestly. Like if, if I'm doing an extended fast, I'll just make that I'll time it in a way such that I'm just, you know, head down on a computer, doing a whole bunch of client work or a whole bunch of, you know, business work or I'm doing something in that regard. 1 (18m 3s): That way I can just stay focused if you're just sitting around, you know, watching Netflix all day and you're fasting for extended period time, you're probably going to lean into those hungry. He was a little bit more. 0 (18m 12s): Yeah, I think I agree. I think staying busy is like probably number one, sparkling water love using sparkling water with the carbonation apple cider vinegar with some water. Some people don't like the taste of that. I think the first time I tried apple cider vinegar, I didn't realize you had to cut it with water. Yeah. That didn't go so well. Yeah. Like I dunno what I was thinking, but that was a while ago. And then yeah. Coffee, unsweetened tea. Good ways to go. Just black coffee or we say, you know, like you mentioned, you can add a little cream. I almost use those. You can use those almost as like for some people almost like fasting training wheels a little bit. It's just a way to get your body acclimated to, to not having any food in it. 0 (18m 55s): Even though there is a little bit of calories and cream and things like that. Also this is questioning sort of goes hand in hand, which can help with this overcoming this hunger is can I eat whatever I want on non on non-fasting days or times? 1 (19m 11s): Yeah. So I it's been, so you ask, I mean, I'm a huge advocate for sustainability. So I try, I mean, I do a strict keto diet and I've been strict keto for seven plus years now. That's my, that's my forte. So I would not deviate from that, that chat protocol, even after an extended fast, some people that are following the standard American diet for instance, but doing that alongside fasting, you know, their primary goal, if they're trying to lose weight is to, you know, moderate their consumption. So if they're eating everything inside seven days a week and they do an extended fast for two of those days, and then they go back to eating everything inside those remaining five days, they may put themselves in an energy deficit and be able to see some weight loss or they may even consume more in that, you know, once they break that fast. 1 (20m 2s): Cause if you start to feel like you're deprived during that fasting period, and then you just start going off the rails, once you reintroduce food, you're probably going to have a negative side effect. And then, so I always take a very measured approach when I'm doing extended fasting. Like I ease back into the food. I don't really introduce new foods. I keep the foods pretty consistent with what I'm typically consuming and know my body responds well to. And I honestly don't do extended fasting that often. So that would probably be my, my best advice there. 0 (20m 31s): Yeah. I mean, I always say it's a lot easier during the fasting times if you're eating clean during the, you know, that you're feasting times. Yeah. I mean, even if it's not strict keto whole foods, right? Like what would you say to someone? Is it tough for someone to do the keto diet if they're either like a vegetarian, a vegetarian or vegan or, or even like a pescatarian? 1 (21m 1s): It certainly, I mean, you certainly have to get more creative with your food choices. I mean, you can absolutely do it. I've worked with clients in the past that have been, you know, vegan, vegetarian. You just have to find more options and make sure you're not in a, you know, mineral deficient, state, or micronutrient deficient state. You may have to do a little more supplementation, but it's certainly doable. And again, there's a lot of different reasons for people to go vegan. So I I'd want to make sure that I'm understanding their, their main priority because a lot of them are under the assumption that that's a healthier approach, which, you know, a lot of the research is to just, and it's not necessarily the case. If that's their only reason for being vegan, then I would just sit down and have a conversation with them, a bounce, you know, what they feel is healthy and going that route and then see if I can instruct them otherwise. 1 (21m 47s): But if they are, you know, doing it for religious reasons or whatever the case might be, you know, having a conversation about just simply giving them their options and then figuring out how to work around that perimeter so that they're still getting enough. Nutrients is key. 0 (21m 60s): Okay. And how long this is another question that came up, how long does it take to get into ketosis? 1 (22m 9s): Yeah, so you're technically producing ketones, you know, probably within 12 to 24 hours of the removal of carbohydrates and sugar. So you're producing ketones pretty quickly. You're probably gonna register a 0.5 million molar on a ketone strip within 24, 48 hours, maybe 72, depending on some people. However, that doesn't really mean that you are yet fat adapted. There's a pretty stark contrast between producing ketones and being a ptosis and actually being fat adapted keto adapted. So once you, primarily you shift your body's primary fuel source from carbohydrates and glucose to fat ketones, it takes a, you know, a while for your body to upregulate those metabolic pathways that you're efficiently using fat and ketones. 1 (22m 52s): I generally instruct people to do it for no less than a month, but really, and truly, it just keeps getting better the longer you're doing it, especially from a performance-based standpoint. So like if you're trying to Excel as an athlete, then I would suggest no less than about six months, then you'll really start to see your performance succeeding or at least on par with what you were doing prior to adopting a ketogenic diet. But again, like, it's kind of one of those things where the longer you do it, the more metabolic machinery your body puts in place to become efficient at using fat and ketones. So it just keeps getting better with time basically. 0 (23m 26s): Okay. And people are probably asking, how do you measure your ketone levels? 1 (23m 32s): So yes, a lot of people will start with like a urine strip, which measures a CDOT acetate, and that works initially. But the problem is, as you become more efficient at using those ketone bodies, your body becomes less likely to excrete them through your urine. So after awhile you'll start or you'll stop registering ketones on those urine strips. So then people will transition to blood test, which measures beta hydroxybutyrate. And that's kind of the quote unquote gold standard for measuring ketone levels. But again, depending on your level of adaptation, your body is likely going to become better at shuttling those ketone bodies. So it's made a hydroxylate iterate molecules into the cell, into the tissue. 1 (24m 14s): So they're not going to be sitting there circulating in the bloodstream can be measured with a ketone meter. You'll still register, but you may actually see a decline in those over time. Also this all just, you know, depending on you know, what your body composition is, what your level of battery fan and take is, you know, if you're in a caloric surplus, Nicole, our deficit, all of these can have a pretty profound effect on ketone levels. But blood testing is probably my preferred form. Then there's also the breathalyzer tests, which are gaining in popularity. Those are measuring acetone. 0 (24m 43s): Okay. Yeah, I've been, I've been measuring, I measure it from side of the time and I use like the keto mojo and that's sort of a good place to start. Here's another question is what would you recommend someone going from the standard American diet who is looking to transition into the keto diet? What are those steps look like? 1 (25m 4s): Well, the standard mechanize pretty much bottom of the barrel. So you can do to get better than that. It's going to be progress. And the, the key is truly progress over perfection. So when I, when I define, you know, what makes up ketogenic diets, I look at just good quality, wholesome single ingredient foods, natural foods, animal-based foods. So if people transition their diet, so that that's the majority of the foods they're consuming and they're probably going to be doing themselves, they were on a surface. And just up there removing all of the, the ultra processed foods higher in carbohydrates, higher in sugars, higher in liquid calories, you know, removing a lot of those and just simply focusing on good quality foods. 1 (25m 45s): And if they're transitioning from a standard American diet, they likely will experience drop in energy initially, but they're able to mitigate that pretty, pretty well by simply staying hydrated and consuming ample, sodium and potassium. Because when you do transition to a ketogenic diet from a standard American diet, you're going to flush out quite a bit of water in the initial phases. You're going to, your kidneys are going to flush out your minerals. So you'll be deficient in your electrolyte balance. And that's going to cause a pretty apparent decline in just energy and how you feel in general. So replacing those electrolytes with a additional sodium potassium intake, in addition to just a more water consumption is going to help mitigate those quote unquote keto flu like symptoms. 0 (26m 27s): Yeah. I was going to say, that's what a lot of people call it, like the Hito flu. So you might starting out, you might feel some of these adverse effects. Is that just like maybe tiredness, headache, things like that. 1 (26m 39s): Yeah. I mean, I mean, you think about it. You're you're most people haven't been key tonics. They were born and they're drinking breast milk claustrum so most people haven't been Nikita genic state for quite some time. And, you know, you shift your mind is fuel source like that. There's going to be a little lag in your body being able to feel and perform at a higher level. So just kind of embracing that when it comes and just mitigating it as best you can with proper hydration and electrolytes, things of that nature. 0 (27m 7s): Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And what would you say, well, let's go to, let's go back. Let's go to a fast and question then we'll come back so well, this one sort of goes hand in hand with what we've been talking about a little bit. Does intermittent fasting, induce ketosis. 1 (27m 23s): Yeah, it does. Depending on how long you do an intermittent fast, depending on how many carbohydrates you're consuming, once you're, once you deplete your store liver glycogen, and to some extent your muscle glycogen and you're transitioning from a standard American diet, you're going to start producing ketones pretty quickly. But again, your body isn't necessarily, you know, efficient at using those ketones as fuel until you've given enough time to be, you know, upregulate those metabolic pathways to take advantage of that new fuel supply. But yeah, I mean, intermittent fasting, extended fasting, certainly those are all going to increase ketone production. 0 (28m 1s): Yeah. And I would just say, I would think, I think that, like, at least for myself, who's been doing this, you know, intermittent fasting slash a keto diet for quite a while is fasting is probably the most efficient and quickest way if I really want to just get like my ketone levels up. But again, it depends on the individual and their background and what they've been doing. And, and what would you say to someone that perhaps is discouraged? I think sometimes people want to like get to the end before they start. What would you say to someone like, I, I always think being patient is important. What are some of maybe the mistakes that people make when they're starting out trying to maybe get, get into the keto diet and into fasting? 1 (28m 49s): Honestly. I mean, if they go on, they don't have very much knowledge and they're going onto the internet now, there's just so much, so much information out there as much of which conflicts itself. So it can be a very confusing time, but I think just honestly, going back to basics, simply eating good quality, single ingredient, wholesome natural animal-based foods, and then improving their activity, training hard and sleeping good. Like that's really, and truly going to be the most bang for their proverbial buck. So doing that, you know, was going to be key. And then honestly, just having a long game mentality and approach towards their diet and lifestyle, like so many people try and do these quick, you know, cut schemes, like, you know, 60 days for six pack AMS and all this stuff. 1 (29m 32s): And it's just not that you can't do it, but it's just not the life that you'd want to live in the first place. Like I would like to, I would like to encourage people to figure out what they can maintain and be excited about adhering to every single day and then just making the habit to, to double down on those every single day. And then if you do that over a long period of time, the benefits that you're going to keep compounding, and I feel like that is the conversation and the mindset that we all need to adopt. 0 (29m 55s): Yeah. I love that. I think, I think that, like you said, there's a lot that could be a lot of confusion out there. That's the one thing I like about fasting in the sense is this the simplicity of it and the flexibility of it really doesn't cost anything and, and yet eating just whole foods. What would you say as far as, and, and I've sort of a thought on this for fasting is a good way to start actually, this, this is a common question that comes up from clients is should I get into the keto diet first or fasting first, or which comes, should I do both together? And what, what would you say on that? 1 (30m 33s): I mean, I feel they kind of go hand in hand, it's like a management heaven. So like fat digests and is absorbed a much more slowly than carbohydrates. So if you switch over to a kid, drink diet and you ramp up your dietary fat intake, which I do encourage people to do, if they're coming from a diet lower in fat, for sure, then they're going to have the, all the satiating effect of that higher fat intake I do there, they're consuming ample protein from animal-based sources that also takes a little more time to absorb and be assimilated by the body. So they should see an upregulation in society. Couple that with the fact that by removing the carbohydrates and sugars, they're going to have less volatile blood sugar and insulin. So that's going to decrease their cravings throughout the day and their hunger cues throughout the day. 1 (31m 16s): Then it just kind of goes hand in hand that they're probably not going to be consuming as frequently, which boom you're in an intermittent fasting state right there. So sort of, kind of doing them in tandem usually works well for most. 0 (31m 27s): Yeah, I agree. And this was a question that came up on the wire here. What fruit can you eat on keto? 1 (31m 37s): Yeah, so it's weird, man. There's been like this massive splurge of people doing keto and carnivore carnivores that we weren't especially, but it's like plus fruit and honey, which is not really carnivore at all. I mean, honey's primarily fructose fruit is primarily fruit toast. I don't really understand why there's been such a push for that, but I don't really consume, honey. I don't want to consume fruit. I mean, some berries on occasion, that's not really going to have much of a glycemic index, not really going to cause any spike in blood sugar and blood insulin, you know, but like I'm not, you're not going to catch me eating a mango or something like that. So yeah, I would keep those, you know, pretty, pretty well nonexistent. 1 (32m 18s): I mean, it's pretty much just pure sugar. 0 (32m 20s): Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, if you're looking at the keto diet and you say to yourself, I'm going to stay under 50 grams of carbs per day, right. That's probably a common, let's just say 25 to 50 is probably a common maybe measure that people getting into the keto diet try to reach for. Was that, would that be sound about right. And you know, if you think of like, let's just say an apple, which is probably, let's just say 15 grams of carbs, 20 grams of carbs for an apple, you know, a person can have an apple and, and probably stay in the same state they were just in. 1 (32m 53s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everybody, especially depending on if they're athletes, if they're, they have a lot more muscle tissue, they're going to burn through that sugar much more quickly. I mean, I could probably tolerate a hundred grams of carbs a day and still maintain some degree of ketosis, but that wouldn't really be boating well for optimizing my kid drink that. And that's my goal is to simply optimize my nutritional protocol, my lifestyle and my training and performance as an athlete. So if I'm trying to optimize with a ketogenic diet, it doesn't really, I mean, me consuming a bunch of fruit, not that fruit and alcohol, the same thing by any means, but me consuming a bunch of fruit is not really going to improve my level of keto adaptation. 1 (33m 33s): It's not really going to improve my performance. This is me consuming a bunch of alcohol wouldn't either. So I don't really do those things that don't contribute to my overall betterment. 0 (33m 42s): Okay. And then what's thoughts on vegetables, 1 (33m 46s): Vegetables. I mean, I don't really notice any performance benefit from vegetables. I like to think of vegetables as a Fenton delivery system. I can saw tape, I suppose, and fat just makes getting fancy and easier. Some people tolerate and vegetables exceedingly well. They liked the flavor. They liked the texture and you know, you're one of those people, then I say more power to you have the vegetables still count the total carbohydrate intake because that can add up if you consumed them in excess. But a lot of people don't consume vegetables. They don't really have hardly any dietary fiber and they don't want to have any digestive issues. So I don't think they're required many means. 0 (34m 18s): Okay. Yeah. And then what would you say? Okay, so someone, someone starting out, like you mentioned whole foods, maybe gradually, slowly cut those carbs down to a point of, is there, is there like a sort of a ceiling you'd say for some people are just depends. 1 (34m 38s): Yeah. I mean, definitely depends. You, you can kind of play around with it and figuring out what your own unique threshold ceiling and floor is. Me personally, I typically stay, if I'm consuming, you know, 4,000 plus calories, I'm probably going to be closer to 30 or 40 grams of total carbs a day, just simply because it's a lot of trace calories or trace carbs adding up for that amount of food. But then when I'm in a cut, I'm consuming less total calories, I may be less, you know, single digit grams of total carbohydrates. So it just kinda depends where I'm at on the caloric spectrum. 0 (35m 8s): Okay. And this is a question that comes up quite a bit. And I'm curious about your thoughts because of you do fasting you exercise in a fast that state will fast and cause muscle loss. 1 (35m 20s): It can, if you don't do things properly, so fasting <inaudible> itself will not, but you got to make sure that there's, there's several different levers that you can pull. So if you're in a caloric deficit overall, you're doing extended fasting and you're not training properly, then yeah. You will absolutely lose lean muscle tissue, skeletal muscle tissue. However, if you are, you know, if you get your caloric intake down, then if you are, if your hormonal health is solid, if you are training with enough stimulate to continue demanding your body to retain that lean muscle tissue and you do a fast, you're likely not going to lose any significant amount of muscle tissue. 0 (35m 59s): Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I've, I do DEXA scans, like every, I dunno, four to six months. And you know, I've been doing fasting for quite a while now. And I mean, I still feel like I'm building muscle. I have messed around with, and I'm curious, I know you work out in a fastest state. I've been messing around with having a little bit something before the workouts and seeing how my performances. So I think that's, that's a bit of a self experimentation there, but definitely I think keeping that protein intake at a solid level, is there a protein level that you look for, like a gram per pound of body weight? 1 (36m 34s): Yeah. I mean, I'll go is, I mean, I'm done as low as 67 grams for a very finite period of time. And the end of my cut don't really recommend that. I don't think it's necessary, especially with someone with my stance, but then I also go as high as, you know, 250 grams at times. So I have a pretty broad range with protein as well, but like a good general rule of thumb is if you're doing one gram of protein per pound of lean mass, like that should be ample to ensure that you're not losing any muscle tissue. And you can kind of tease that up, you know, as needed based off of where you're at from a caloric load standpoint, what your training is like, what your preferences are like, you know, what your satiety factors are like, but yeah, one gram protein per pound lean mass, just a good general rule of thumb for sure. 0 (37m 18s): Okay. I'm just scanning through some of the questions. I think we've answered most of them. Did I miss, did I miss anything that's come up Robert with clients or regarding keto and fasting? 1 (37m 30s): No. No. I mean, that was pretty, pretty all inclusive. We covered the gamut there. I feel like I, again, just trying to drive home the points. One thing I think I talked quite a bit about is just giving yourself time in a caloric surplus. You know, I kind of touched on that earlier about not doing extended fasting while in a deficit. I feel like there's not near enough people talking about the importance of reverse dieting and spending ample time in a caloric surplus because so much of the media and information out there is just focused on weight loss. But if you're chronically under eating, you're not going to perform at a high level. You're not going to have proper metabolic health, proper hormonal health, and certainly not optimize your performance. So spending time in a caloric surplus is I think very, very important. 0 (38m 12s): And when you say caloric surplus, is this something that, again, you got to sort of track maybe for a few weeks, see where your baseline is and then go from there? 1 (38m 21s): Yeah. So like for me, for instance, you know, 3000 calories is roughly my maintenance. So if I'm, if I'm in a building phase, I'm trying to push the needle, I'll tease that up a little bit beyond that 3000 calorie mark, that's going to be different for everybody. But like for instance, I'll have a lot of female clients that come to me, they're wanting to lose weight and they've been consuming less than a thousand calories for the past six years, which is going to have a depressive effect toward their metabolic rate. Their hormones are likely going to be down-regulated. Everything is just not going to be optimized. So giving them time to, to, to reverse diet and basically increase their caloric intake so that we can reset those baseline markers at the healthier range prior to focusing on weight loss and fat loss again is going to be my recommendation for sure. 0 (39m 5s): Okay. Yeah. I, I, so it's probably important to maybe track it for a few weeks, see where you're at as far as your baseline and then go from there when you talk about extended fast, because this is a common question that comes up. I mean, I do them every so often when you, what's your definition of an extended fast? 1 (39m 21s): I mean, I would say probably anything over 24 hours. I mean, I've gone as long as I think five and a half, as long as I've ever gone at any one time, you know, I'll intermittent fast, pretty much daily, in which case I have my last meal around six and then I had my first meal around noon. But anything longer than that, I don't typically do on a, on a regular basis. I did like a three-day fast three and a half day fast about a month ago. But you know, I don't really do those too, too often. 0 (39m 51s): And when you do, I'm curious when you do extended fasts, are you just maybe just taking it easy activity wise or are you still training and stuff? 1 (39m 59s): I, I can't really take it easy, man. I don't know how to, so I keep training. I prefer it. I like it. I feel like my body responds well to it, so I keep training. 0 (40m 8s): Okay. And you're just drinking water and minerals during that time 1 (40m 12s): Electrolytes and that's pretty much all I need, man. 0 (40m 15s): Are there before we'd wrap it up. Are there any like precautions, I know you mentioned sort of the keto flu symptoms. Are there any other precautions when following a ketogenic diet? 1 (40m 27s): Not really. I mean, people like are fearful of precautions are fearful of the ketogenic diet and there's a lot of, you know, fear mongering out there. A lot of people worried about lipid panels and whatnot, but I mean really and truly any with any, with any diet, just simply get those panels checked, like, like go and get a routine lab, check, see what your lipid panels are doing, see what your hormone levels are doing. See what, see what all these markers are. And then check more than once. Like you might start, you might go and get all these labs drawn and then, you know, start a ketogenic diet. But if you don't get another set of labs drawn, you won't really know if you're moving in the right direction, the wrong direction. So getting routine lab panels done, you know, every six months or a year. So I think it would be good advice regardless of the batch of following 0 (41m 10s): Now, not to go down a whole different road, but other certain labs that, that you tend to look for, like for your, for your clients, male clients, particularly. 1 (41m 21s): Yeah. I mean, I, I think, you know, a fully comprehensive lipid panels, good with particle size is good. I'll get like a C-reactive protein, a certain kind of see what inflammation markers I've gotten dealing with. Then I'll get like a full hormone panel as well, just to sure that all my hormone markers and the good healthy range, and that's pretty much my, you know, you stand alone, you know, basic tests advice there, but then if you get specific other, you know, other factors that are, you know, kind of red flags and testing around those, I think would be, you know, key kind of looking at it from an individualized basis for sure. 0 (41m 52s): Okay. And who should not, this is a question that comes up who should not try intermittent fasting. 1 (42m 3s): I think anybody should try it, man. I mean, there's not really any harm in trying it. You won't really know if it's for you until you do try it. And I don't really think there's much of a risk, unless, unless you have something, some weird, crazy issue that the doctor says, Hey, look, don't ever go more than six hours of that evening, but that's probably not the vast majority of people out there. Yeah. 0 (42m 20s): Okay. Yeah. And I was going to say maybe if, you know, you're on certain medications, right. Or you're obviously pregnant or breastfeeding or someone perhaps that's really underweight. 1 (42m 31s): Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're anorexic and you just simply need to eat more in general, it's probably not worthwhile to do extended fasting. 0 (42m 39s): Yeah. Yeah. And I would say perhaps too, if you're fairly young, if you're fairly young in the growth mode, you know, you could, you have plenty of time to get into fasting, you know, as you get a little bit older, maybe over the age of 16, 17, and plus 1 (42m 58s): Yeah. No, that makes sense. For sure. Probably not an even benefit for kids doing extended fasting, but it's kind of crazy, man. You see a lot of kids these days with, you know, type two diabetes already, you know, morbidly obese, you know, in their early teenage years. So it's kind of, it's kind of crazy what's happening with the youth right now. 0 (43m 15s): Yeah, it is. And well, this was good. I just to sum it up. So I would say that for individuals looking to get into keto and intermittent fasting, it's a great one-two punch really focus on structuring your day around a fasting lifestyle that all sort of fit into what works for you, ease your way into, into fasting. And you know, if, if like I talk about a lot, like almost like a step ladder approach, if you want to have your window between noon and six, maybe, and you're so used to eating it's 7:00 AM, maybe gradually pushed that back until you sort of get acquainted with your new, new eating time. And then obviously, same thing I think with like getting into, you know, a keto diet, which is pretty much, it's almost like a whole foods diet, but gradually minimizing carbs and especially processed carbs. 0 (44m 7s): And, you know, focusing on, like you said, one ingredient items that expire, you know, don't try to avoid boxes and barcodes as much as possible. Anything else? 1 (44m 22s): That's pretty much it, man. It honestly just play the long game, kinda like I was talking about earlier, you know, having that long game mentality towards it, you know, if you do that, you set yourself up for success and then you get excited about seeing the progress over time, as opposed to just a singular moment in time, your likelihood of adhering to it for that longer period of time is going to be significantly improved. 0 (44m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. I'm really honing in on why you want it want to do it too, right? Like, you know, do you want to play with your kids or your grandkids or, you know, play the long game. I agree. Figure out really why you want to get into, you know, fascinating Quito. And, and when you really know that that'll sort of draw, you drive you through the times that maybe are a little more difficult, especially when you're just starting out. 1 (45m 3s): Yeah. A hundred percent, man, really, I'm a very clear, clear understanding of what your purpose is in the first place and then attacking that with everything you've got. 0 (45m 11s): Awesome. All right. Robert Quito savage.com Quito brick.com. And you have a new book that's been out for a few months. Keep treat agentic bodybuilding. Correct. 1 (45m 21s): That's it 0 (45m 23s): Awesome. Well, this is a fun masterclass. Hopefully you got a ton of value from it and thanks Robert. I appreciate it. 1 (45m 29s): Hey man. I was a pleasure. I appreciate the time. 0 (45m 33s): Thanks for listening to the get lean eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Robert Sikes aka Keto Savage

I'm joined by the Keto Savage himself, Robert Sikes, for a sit down discussion regarding the most common questions around the keto diet and intermittent fasting. We dove into ways to get started and succeed in both areas. We also discussed: - The main benefits of the Keto Diet - Foods to Eat with Quality Fats - The Correct Times to Fast - Tips to Overcome Hunger - Transitioning to the Keto Diet and much much more!


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