Brian (1s):
This week I interviewed the King of the Mattress, Derek Hales. Since 2013, Derek has tested over 500 mattresses and founded NapLab, a platform that takes a truly data driven approach to sleep products. His methodology goes far beyond surface impressions. Instead of every mattress is subjected to 10 standardized tests with 43 measurable data points. So people can learn how cooling motion, isolation and edge support actually impact their sleep and health. We discuss the importance of the weight of your mattress, along with what mattress is best for cooling throughout the night. Is memory foam worth the hype? Should you rotate your mattress?
Brian (41s):
And much, much more. Really enjoyed my interview with Derek. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right. Welcome to the Get Lean, Eat Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I have Derek Hales on Welcome to the show.
Derek (56s):
Thank you so much for having me.
Brian (58s):
The King of the Mattress,
Derek (1m 0s):
Something like that.
Brian (1m 3s):
You have a company NAP lab. Maybe explain to the viewer what you know, what you've been doing. What, I think you started in 2013, right?
Derek (1m 12s):
2014. So, okay. Yeah. So NAP Lab is, is a platform where we test some review mattresses, mattresses come in, we put 'em through a battery of objective and data driven testing to assess their performance in 10 critical areas. We sympathize and analyze all that data and information and then try to just create the most helpful, transparent, informative review that we can.
Brian (1m 37s):
I love it. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to get you on is I was, I have a, had a client this morning. I was like, you know, I'm, I'm interviewing a, a gentleman by who's in, who's looked at mattresses for, you know, over 10 year, you know, long time. I'm like, it's so important to have a good mattress. I mean, you think about how much time you spend on it, right? Yeah,
Derek (1m 56s):
No, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's a third of your life. It's, I I would argue more, more impactful to, to health than, than anything else you can do, aside from maybe quitting smoking. And, you know, don't, don't only think my word for it. Actually, it was referencing a study that recently came out in December, some sort of a health university hospital in Oregon, I believe was the, the one who published it and basically said exactly that. They looked at all these different like factors that impact health and longevity, diet, genetics, social isolation, exercise, and aside from smoking, which was the most important, if you could do smoking, you'll increase your longevity and health sleep was number two. So it's just absolutely critical.
Brian (2m 36s):
Yeah. And we talk about optimizing sleep like all the time on this podcast because I just think like in the health and fitness space, there's so many like things that come and go and it's like, I always tell my clients like, just focus on the basics, right? Yeah. Good sleep, you know, managing stress, eating clean, building muscle, maintaining muscle, you know, just the basics. If you, if you focus on the basics, everything else should, for the most part fall into place.
Derek (3m 6s):
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, a lot of people, especially, I wanna wanna try to complicate sleep and for some it, it can be more complicated. But I think for, for most people, just really simple habits. You know, stick to a bedtime, gets seven, eight hours a night, wake up at the same time, try to avoid stressors and screens late at night. If, if you can do that, you're, you're gonna be in a much better situation.
Brian (3m 28s):
Yeah. And I mean, obviously you're looking at mattresses. Is there something that, I mean, you've been analyzing these for a long time. Is there like one metric that like stands out over all, like, that makes just the mattress that much better?
Derek (3m 44s):
If I had to pick one factor, I would say it's weight. Because it's one of those things that mattress brands cannot sort of hide with marketing nonsense and branding speak. If you just ignore everything about the bed and just purchased a mattress based on how much it weighed, you're gonna have better outcomes than if, if you just, something that was as weighed lesser was just a thinner mattress. So mattresses, I would say queen mattresses that weigh at least 120 pounds and kings that are roughly 140 or more are going to perform much better on average than mattresses that weigh less. And just comes down to the, the quantity and type of materials that provide sort of the best support and the best comfort typically weigh more.
Derek (4m 32s):
And so when mattress manufacturers want to make a mattress cost less, they are doing stuff like using a less expensive coil unit, which weighs less. They'll do stuff that has, they'll use a higher or lower density foams. So there's just less stuff the foam. So that foam breaks down quicker, sags more, less comfortable, less supportive. So the the one factor I would say look for, make sure your mattress is reasonably heavy because it's just gonna lead to much better performance.
Brian (5m 1s):
Yeah. See that tip right there was worth having you on. Right. Okay.
Derek (5m 5s):
Or the price submission we're only need four minutes in.
Brian (5m 8s):
What about like temperature regulation? When it comes to mattresses? I, I, you know, my wife and I like to sleep cold, but you know, I noticed this was interesting. I was in Florida and we were staying with my parents and we, I, we ran out of, well, I should say I, I got out of the room 'cause my, I was snoring, okay. So I didn't want to keep my wife up and I, I blew up an air mattress and I noticed I was a lot cooler with the air mattress. And I'm thinking to myself, God, if, if we could find a mattress that obviously, like you said, weighs a decent amount, but is also has this like good temperature regulation, that's, that's a sort of a win-win.
Derek (5m 47s):
Yeah. And so there's, there's a lot of reasons that, you know, mattresses can, can be warmer. I mean, it could be something as simple as like the bedding, the mattress protector, the sheets, you know, the duvet, like that's all going to retain or release heat and, and breathe better with respect to, to mattresses. It's, it's unfortunately rather, rather complex. 'cause there's a lot of sort of material science that goes into whether or not a bed sleeps cooler. One of the big things to look for is it's just the, the, the amount of air in the mattress, in your case you slept an air mattress, it's, it's practically all air, right? But if we compare like an all foam mattress, you know, 10 inches of foam to a hybrid mattress that maybe has seven inches of steel coils and then three inches of foam, well, there's just less material that can easily absorb and retain heat in that hybrid mattress.
Derek (6m 32s):
So hybrid mattresses on average outperform all foam mattresses when it comes to cooling. And then we can look at other factors like the different types of, of covers in, in those and, and how much those sink, if you sink down more into a mattress, it's just you have more material enveloping around the body. Something like a blanket, again, that's gonna make it harder to, to breathe. It's gonna make airflow more restricted and it's gonna negatively impact cooling versus maybe mattress that keeps you more balanced in sort of how it wraps and hugs the body that's gonna perform a little bit better with respect to cooling. So there's, there's a lot to the world of cooling and mattress brands know that people want cooling mattresses. So it is unfortunately something that every brand, practically every brand talks about.
Derek (7m 16s):
You have brands that are, you know, $5,000 that feel like, you know, you're looking at the space station of cooling, and then you have mattresses that are $300 and are talking about their mattress in many of the same ways, using the same language, claiming to use the same type of materials. And it's just, it, it's, it's not true. There is a massive spectrum of cooling performance and just because a brand says it is cool doesn't mean it's going to be,
Brian (7m 40s):
And I mean, I you think of like price for these mattresses, like you said, there's such a wide variety of prices. Is it typically like the more expensive mattress the better? Or is that not necessarily true?
Derek (7m 52s):
Up to, up to a point. So I, I see sort of diminishing returns on performance and quality starting at around 1500 to $2,000 for a queen size. You'll get progressively sort of more and more and more up to around $3,000 for a queen after that. With very few exceptions. I don't think there is a good reason for most consumers to spend more than $3,000. You at that point you're just, you're paying for branding and, and names. There are, again, a few exceptions. If you want something that's all natural, all organic, all vegan, All right, you're gonna pay more for that. If you want something that is fully adjustable on both sides, whereas a smart bed and has all sorts of built-in features and trackers, alright, you're gonna pay more for that.
Derek (8m 34s):
But if you're just getting, you know, a regular memory foam, a foam mattress, a hybrid, an innerspring, there's just no reason to spend more than $3,000.
Brian (8m 43s):
Yeah, good to know. 'cause I was, I was looking on your set, I'm, my god, there's such a wide variety of, And you know, you think of it like, I don't know, I was thinking like wine came to my head as like, there's some good bottles of wine that you don't, you could spend 70 bucks on, you don't have to spend a thousand dollars on and you, you're getting just as good of a bottle of wine as you would be for the most part.
Derek (9m 3s):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's exactly the case in, in the world of mattresses as well, sort of in, in 2014 sort of kicked off this almost revolution might be a bit of a, of a, a strong word for it, but we saw a massive influx of online mattress brands starting, you know, we went from just a, a, a handful in 2014 to two hundreds within a few years thereafter. And all of those online mattress brands have put tremendous pricing pressure on the industry as it holds. So these more legacy traditional sort of entrenched brands, you know, the, the big s brands, Tempur-Pedic have had to really compete on price in a way that they didn't have to in the last, you know, preceding decades. So I think that's been really interesting to see and think it's been a good thing for the industry at large as well.
Brian (9m 47s):
Now, like for example, memory foam, right? Like that became popular because of like the NASA marketing, but what's like your data show about like, the actual like performance compared to like newer materials that have come out that nobody's, that nobody's probably never heard of?
Derek (10m 2s):
Yeah, so let's, let's let's say polyurethane foam science is, is a really broad category and memory foam is within that memory foam is a really interesting material because right, it was originally developed by, by NASA for the space shuttle and then used by Tempur-Pedic commercially in, in the nineties. And so memory foam as it originally was sort of formulated, was a viscoelastic polyurethane foam, which is just a type of, of polyurethane foam. Over the years, brands have basically stopped using sort of traditional formulation that that gave it its technical viscoelastic properties and instead they're now just creating polyurethane foams that feel very similar, the same, but avoid some of the things that memory foam did, did wrong.
Derek (10m 48s):
It retained heat, it was so slow to respond and recover to its original shape after being compressed that you could feel stuck in the mattress, makes it hard to move, makes it worse for sex. And so polyurethane foams that feel like memory foam, but without the negatives have really advanced, especially in the last, I would say 10 years, five years in particular. And so that's been been really interesting, But it also makes it really difficult to know what you are getting because memory foam is not a single material. There's no legal definition, there's no even industry agreed upon definition. My sort of definition for memory foam is a polyurethane foam that has a more dramatic body contouring hug.
Derek (11m 31s):
Again, typically they're also a little bit warmer. Typically they're a little bit slower to respond, but the mileage can vary there based on the foam. But again, the, because there is no legal definition or industry agreed upon definition, the quality performance in the field varies widely. Again, you have $3,000 mattresses talking about the memory foam they use and then a $300 mattress saying, oh, we also have memory foam. And while there may be some similarities that they, those foams are often very different.
Brian (12m 1s):
And what about, like, you hear all these like firmer mattresses might be better for your back. Like what does your data actually show when it comes to firmness levels and like, you know, spinal alignment across like different body types?
Derek (12m 14s):
Yeah, again, it, it really depends. I would say in general, if you have back pain issues, you've experienced a lack of support in previous mattresses, creating back pains and lower back pains, yeah, you probably need something that is, let's say medium firm, slightly firm or firm. So that is, I think that is true on average, But it really depends on the person, right? If you are a 100 pound side sleeper dealing with back pain and you get a firm mattress that could be too firm you and that's gonna push spine out of alignment, creating a, a new type of problem. So you really wanna think about like what your specific body type needs. Usually lighter weighted sleepers need a little bit something softer doesn't necessarily mean soft just means softer, which could be medium or medium firm if you have back pain.
Derek (12m 58s):
But at the same token, let's say you're, you know, a 300 pound guy, yeah, you, you probably need sort of something on the very firm end spectrum or perhaps even a, an hd, a plus size mattress. Something that's been specifically designed and tuned with materials that are appropriate to the needs of that body type. And so I think again, as a general rule, yes firmer mattresses do tend to be better for alleviating back pain, But it really depends again on sleep position, body type, and then just personal preference as well.
Brian (13m 29s):
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Brian (14m 13s):
So there you have it. I'll leave a link in the show notes for my stepladder system book now back to the podcast. And would you say like for a side sleeper, 'cause I'm a side sleeper, so I'm just curious like is there a certain mattress that gear is geared more towards side sleepers as opposed to someone that sleeps on their back or on their stomach?
Derek (14m 34s):
I I, I would say more broadly speaking, hybrid mattresses, those, so mattresses that have layer one or more layers of foam on top of layer of steel coils are better not only for, you know, your particular case side sleepers, but most sleepers in general hyper mattresses have just developed in such a way that they are able to meet the needs of a vast majority of sleepers because they create such a, a balanced, even non-polar type feel. So a hybrid mattress with at least let's say a four inch comfort layer that has a medium firm feel that is going to meet the needs of, you know, roughly 80% of US sleepers.
Brian (15m 11s):
Yeah. Is, has have hybrids, have that been sort of the new trend that you've seen that have been coming out from mattress companies?
Derek (15m 18s):
Yeah, yeah. Again, we've kinda looked back on, on the last decade in particular sort of 20 14, 15, 16, there was sort of a huge influx of sort of online mattresses that were doing, like foam mattresses, like a 10 to 12 inch foam mattress. Over time we saw many of those companies start to develop like a hybrid mattress that was 12 to 14 inches. And if we look at the last five years, that's, that's sort of where the industry is at. That is the, the vast majority of, I would say high performance mattresses are in that hybrid category. Something probably like 75% of sort of, you know, major popular models on the market. And you can still find, you know, all foam memory foam. You can still find all foam latex, but those are increasingly less common compared to hybrids.
Brian (15m 59s):
And it's interesting 'cause up here north of Chicago, there's a mattress com, a mattress store, which you don't, I don't think you see that many mattress. I don't you know that any anymore 'cause you can get 'em delivered to your house for the most part and not have to go to a store. But I always find it's nice to try out mattresses. What, And what I was gonna say is it's an, it's like an organic mattress. Like what, what do you find with these like organic mattresses? Do you think it's a lot of fluff or is there something behind it? You know, like the ones that are non-toxic, you know, with the materials and things like that?
Derek (16m 32s):
So the, the ones that are calling themselves organic, I mean they, they are organic. Either the entire mattress is certified organic or one or more material layers within it are certified organic. There's, there's very stringent sort of requirements around whether or not they can claim a layer or the mattress is organic. So if organic is important to you, you can generally trust, you know, the, the certifications in in the industry as far as how they impact overall performance. Just because it's organic doesn't necessarily make it a super high performing mattresses. Most of the materials that are used in organic mattresses are, it's gonna be latex, it's gonna be the primary comfort layer.
Derek (17m 13s):
Latex is a more polarizing feel. It's, it's highly responsive, it's resilient, it's more springy, it's more bouncy. It creates a more sort of generalized circular depression type of a hug around the body as opposed to like a memory foam, which is more exacting and contouring to your precise shape. It's not good or bad, But it is a very specific feel. And over the years I've seen just countless readers and viewers that have purchased a latex thinking, it was kind of this silver bullet like yeah, it's all natural, it's all organic and that's great, but then they get it and then the feel is just not what they expected. It's not what they used to, it's not what they like, So they ended up having to return it and get something different. So I always caution anybody that's thinking about natural organic latex type mattresses, try something in person, just like understand what you're about to get into.
Derek (17m 58s):
'cause it is very different than the vast majority of other mattresses on the market.
Brian (18m 3s):
Yeah, I was just looking. And on your site, the, the, is it AV or sat, how
Derek (18m 9s):
Do you say it? Sa sva,
Brian (18m 10s):
Sattva latex hybrid matrix ma mattress. That looks like a popular one and that's a late, you know, organic natural latex. How, yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts on that one?
Derek (18m 21s):
It's a great mattress and one of the reason I like that bed is it's latex hybrid. So we have latex on top of coils and it also has a quilted cover on top where it's got a bit of, you know, wool and a cotton cover, which is great. And so having that quilted cover in addition to the hybrid design helps us sort of make it a little less polarizing, a little less extreme now it still feels like latex and that mattress in particular is a little bit more buoyant, so you more float on top of the mattress as opposed to sinking down in the mattress. That's not good or bad again, But it is a more polarizing feel. Some people really gonna like that feel, some people really not gonna enjoy that. So it's just important to really think about again, what you, your body needs, likes, and is used to and, and whether or not you would be okay with that type of a feel.
Brian (19m 6s):
Yeah, because I went right on your site. I mean your site's great. Definitely check it out if you have in nap lab.com, it's got tons of reviews and you put the best mattress for cooling and you got the wink bed. I was looking at the wink bed and then, and then you got like the, the best hybrid, which is the Lisa s ra and they're price wise similar. What would you say sort of is the differentiator between those two?
Derek (19m 33s):
The biggest differentiator between those two is simply the type of cover wink bed is using a European pillow top style cover. So it's, it's like puffier, it's fluffier, there's more material in that top cover creates a little bit more, you can sort of get into bed and there's like this immediate press relief because the European pillow top just lets you immediately sink down a little bit. The, the biggest difference to the leases superior is Superior uses a a thin non quilted cover. And so instead of having that, those sort of pillowtop materials, you're sort of sinking, you're immediately engaging with the sort of sort of hard sort of foam layers. Again, they're one of these is not better or worse, but they are different feels, you know, anybody that's slept on a pillowtop or anything sort of similar that knows what that's like.
Derek (20m 19s):
But there are many people that really just don't like that feel and, and find that doesn't, you know, hold up well over time for them. So in those cases, something like the superior can be great. So mattresses without the quilted cover, they're not gonna have that, you know, any sort of issues with the, the pillowtop breaking down, you know, over time. Mm.
Brian (20m 36s):
So the, the wink beds maybe got a little bit more like that European feel, like the little more give to it.
Derek (20m 45s):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Brian (20m 47s):
And as far as cooling, are they pretty similar you'd say? And Yeah, go ahead.
Derek (20m 51s):
They're pretty similar. If, if, if we look at sort of, you know, all of like the, maybe like the top like, you know, 12 mattresses or so that I've tested, like the, the differences to cooling are, are very minor. You know, we we're, we're looking at high performance mostly hybrids, so good air flow that have high quality foams that don't retain heat, they breathe well. They usually also have one or more, you know, material types that aid in cooling within the cover, whether it's like a thermo react fiber or some sort of phase change materials. And that combination is just, is a winning combination when it comes to cooling.
Brian (21m 20s):
And I'm doing this all selfishly just so everyone can, I'm pretty much trying to figure out what mattress you get, but either way, side sleepers, both of those pretty good for side sleeping.
Derek (21m 31s):
Yeah, absolutely. Both those are, are medium firm side sleepers do great on a medium firm as, as do most body types and, and sleeping positions.
Brian (21m 38s):
What would you say like some of the, like the, the biggest lies that the ma mattress industry like has convinced consumers to believe and And what does your testing reveal in instead of that?
Derek (21m 51s):
I, I think the, the biggest lie is that you need to spend more money to get a better mattress and it's the be the best lies have, you know, some grain of truth in it, right? And the grain of truth is yes, you do need to spend more money up to a point to get a good mattress. And that point I think is around 1500 to $2,000. And if you spend up to three K, that that's probably All right as well. But these mattress brands that are trying to convince people to spend, you know, four or five, six, you know, $10,000 on a mattress, it's just utterly in completely absurd the, the performance, the quality difference between a bed that is is 10 k versus a bed that is, you know, 2K is often nothing. And so I I would, I think that the biggest lie is simply that if you don't spend, you know, five to $10,000, you're not gonna get a mattress.
Derek (22m 38s):
That's, that's not true. If you're spending around 2K, you're probably gonna end up with a good quality mattress that's gonna last around the same amount of time as a, you know, a much more expensive mattress.
Brian (22m 49s):
Yeah, I think, I think I'm a big golfer, so I I I feel like with like golf clubs, it's the same thing. Like you don't have to spend, I mean there's some like Japanese brands that you literally could spend up to eight to $10,000 for a set of clubs. Wow. Yeah, yeah, no, there are some, yeah, there are some. And then, but I'm saying, you know, you know, you can go out and spend 1500, you know, 2000 on a set of clubs and it'd just be just as good. I mean you couldn't even, it'd be very subtle differences maybe in the quality, but like, yeah, so similar, similar sort of thing. You go past the threshold, you know, you don't need to spend more than that.
Derek (23m 24s):
Yeah, I'm, I'm still, I'm still rocking a set of just $500 irons from Nike from like 14 years ago. Yeah. Back when they were still making clubs And you know, they're great for someone that's, you know, shooting in, you know, sort of mid eighties, you know, low nineties. Yeah, that's good. That's good. It's, there's more, more than good enough for my game.
Brian (23m 43s):
Now I have to ask you, what, what mattress do you sleep on? Or are you not allowed to say,
Derek (23m 47s):
Oh no, I can, I can say I sleep on a bed called Lumen leaf. It's a, it's a memory foam mattress. It is, it's a mattress that's not perfect and it's not for everyone. So memory foam as, as we just discussed earlier, is a more polarizing feel. It's, it's got more contour and more hug and more pressly, which my wife and I love. Like that's why we like memory foam, but memory foam also is not the coolest of materials. Even when it's high quality like this one, it's also worse for sex, it's also worse for edge sports. So you give up some stuff to, to get the memory foam feel. But if you're like my wife and I, you just love the feel, the hug of memory foam. It's a great choice.
Brian (24m 24s):
Now I'm guessing, you know, so with your website, brands obviously don't pay for rankings, it's all independent. Like do they try to do certain tactics to influence your testing or are you getting mattresses just dropped off on your front step?
Derek (24m 39s):
Yeah, So we, we have, we have a lot of brands that definitely want to want us to review their, their products and want us to, you know, think highly of them. So there are always brands reaching out to us, asking if we'll test and review their mattresses and if they're, you know, popular models that are in that our readers and viewers are interested in, then we, we'll test them, but I'm sorry, the dog.
Brian (25m 2s):
No, that's okay. No big deal.
Derek (25m 5s):
So,
Brian (25m 7s):
So yeah, you get Yeah.
Derek (25m 8s):
To, to answer your first question, yes, we, we do, we do not do any sort of of paid content, sponsored content advertorial, pay for placement, pay for ranking, any, any of that sort of stuff. I, I find that sort of monetization model, especially distasteful and unethical and dishonest. So we stay as far away from that as possible. So everything that we, we test and review goes through our same battery of tests and sort of whatever the score is, is whatever the score is. And sometimes the brands we review like that when, when their mattresses perform well and sometimes they're, they're pretty unhappy with us. And so definitely it's the mattress industry I think like many sort of online product review spaces can be pretty, pretty cutthroat, pretty, pretty nasty, pretty mean.
Derek (25m 50s):
And we see all of that and, and the space, we see all different types of sort of manipulation methods that, that brands and PR people from mattress companies will try to sort of pressure us with to, to get what they want. But we sort of the, the development of our testing process and our scoring process, which is really aimed at sort of resisting that because whenever we, we do the test, we, we have our tests, we have our process, we have our scores, and it's done exactly the same way. There's very little subjectivity in the reviews. So, and that's how we want it because I wanna be able to just speak about these mattresses based on the data and not just based on sort of my, my opinions And what, what I sort of feel.
Brian (26m 29s):
Yeah. Well that's good to know nowadays because who knows with the media what you're getting, right? You know, we're seeing that come to light in a lot of different states here, but you measure motion isolation and I, I'm interested with that, you know, where you like drop a bowling ball on, on it And you know, how much does like partner movement actually fragment sleep and, and And what should like couples look for in your data?
Derek (26m 55s):
I, I think when it comes to, to motion transfer, you know, lower is, is better. So we, we test motion transfer by dropping a medicine ball on one side of the mattress, then we have an accelerometer on the other side of the mattress and we basically use that to determine exactly how much energy is transferring across that mattress. So as, as far as sort of how big of an impact that it makes on partners, it really depends. If you're a super light sleeper, it could be, you know, huge, you could be waking up, you know, dozens of times a night or otherwise sort of being sort of slightly woken at night if you're a deep sleeper, you know, maybe it's not that big of a deal. So I think you really need to think about, you know, how light or heavy of a sleeper you are to determine how impactful motion transfer will be for you.
Derek (27m 37s):
But in general, I do think finding a bed that has lower emotion transfer, whether you're a light or a heavy sleeper is, is gonna be good for everybody. Yeah.
Brian (27m 45s):
And have you ever, like, is there any data that like complete completely like contradicts what like a popular brand's marketing claims are? Like are there any examples that sort of shocked you?
Derek (27m 56s):
I mean, not really at this point, nothing really shocks me, but I mean we see this almost every single week where a mattress that we're testing something will come in, the brand will make some claim with respect to cooling or motion or even something as simple as just the height of a layer or the height of the total mattress to say, yep, this is a 15 inch mattress. And then it's like, well I guess this yardstick is lying 'cause it says 14 inches, right? So we see that sort of stuff constantly. And so it really, the the sort of the puffery around cooling that, that doesn't surprise me that that's just so common. But I, I am sort of routinely shocked at how kind of brazen many mattress brands get with just simple facts like what's in this mattress or how tall this mattress is or how tall this layer is.
Derek (28m 45s):
Or they'll say, Hey, there's three layers of polyurethane foam and I cut it open. It's like, well that sure looks like two to me. Wow. That sort of stuff just, it's just shocking because it's just even sort of a, a regular consumer could, could figure that out in about, you know, two seconds.
Brian (29m 1s):
Although, I mean really when you get a mattress, it's not like you're cutting it open though, right? I mean, true, yeah. So I can see how they, they can sort of hide some of the data or at least lie about it. I mean that's obviously deceitful and you, you know, do you, obviously when you're testing and you see that, do you sort of take, take that into account? I mean, or like give them a lower grade because of that? If there's deceitful marketing,
Derek (29m 23s):
We'll we'll talk about it, but we don't grade on it, you know, it's not something that's in our, our scores if for among other reasons it's, it's very hard to like determine what that grade would be. And then sort of, you know, where sort of there's like a spectrum of sort of, you know, lies and deceit on one end versus just like omissions or a mattress, like a mistake was made or they've, they've updated the design and so it's not always clear to me which of those it is. So we talk about exactly what we see, what we measure, what we experience, and then what that ends up being in terms of performance scores. But we, we try not to get into, into areas that are, again, more highly subjective or that we just aren't absolutely sure of like why something is the way it is.
Brian (30m 10s):
And what about like replacement for mattresses? Like what life, you know, obviously you're testing these mattresses initially, you're not necessarily seeing the life of the mattress, but how long should someone keep a mattress for? Is there like an average
Derek (30m 24s):
If you are sleeping well on a mattress, getting great rest, there's, there's no need to switch whether that mattress is 10 years or, or 15 years old. In general, most mattresses are gonna, most I'd say good quality mattresses, you're gonna last around 10 years. If you are substantially beyond that, you maybe start thinking it, it might be time, but by the same token, if you know you're on year five and you're waking up in pain, waking up sore, waking up, not feeling rested, it's probably time. You know, just 'cause we want a mattress to last 10 years doesn't mean it's always going to, and, and certain, you know, like your your body type environmental factors, the, the frame and foundation that you're using in combination with the mattress itself, all of those factors come into how long a mattress is gonna last.
Brian (31m 9s):
Yeah. And you mentioned the beginning about like sleep habits. I mean obviously having a mattress is one thing, but like having healthy like sleep habits are, are just as important. I would say if the, you know, the same what like sleep habits, you mentioned a few that you sort of try to live by or that you talk about in your, on your website.
Derek (31m 28s):
Yeah, so I, I try and just keep it real simple. I mean, for me just, I I I go to bed at the, at the same time I wake up at the same time whether it's a weekday or weekend. So that's, that's been really helpful. Yeah. You know, beyond that, making sure I'm always getting, you know, seven, eight hours of sleep. You know, it's just countless studies that show that that's sort of the sweet spot for, for adults. And then otherwise just sort of avoiding things that are gonna keep me awake at night. I'm not drinking caffeine super late at night, I'm not doing super, let's say, I don't know, exci, exci exciting activities that are gonna get my, my heart rate going. Mostly I'm talking about video games. I, I can't play my super competitive video games, you know, after 10 o'clock at night, otherwise I'm gonna be up till midnight. So I try to limit stuff like that and otherwise just sort of, you know, bring, bring the energy down as I get closer and closer to bedtime.
Derek (32m 16s):
That combination again, I, I try and keep it real simple, but that's really worked well for me.
Brian (32m 21s):
I was just looking at your site, you, you review a, a company called Purple. I I have their do you do pillows or you just do mattresses?
Derek (32m 30s):
In my career, I've tried a bunch of pillows, I've tested a bunch, but we're not doing formal testing on pillows right Now. I still will get pillows and try 'em out and if somebody asks me about them, I'll talk about them. But yeah, we're not doing formal pillows, but over the last 11 years I've, you know, tested something like a hundred different pillows.
Brian (32m 47s):
Yeah, because I have the purple pillow, which I don't mind, it weighs like 10 pounds. So you, yeah, you can't like tough the travel with, but what, what, how's the mattress compare
Derek (32m 58s):
Purple mattresses much like latex is, or they're very polarizing. It's, and, and for the same reason, it's such a unique feel that that purple grid, which is a hyper elastic gel polymer is super resilient and springy and creates that same sort of latex like sort of more generalized body compression where it's not, not exacting a hug around you. Again, it's not good or bad, But it is a more specific feel. Purple mattresses also tend to have more of a floating feel where the body lies more on the mattress as opposed to sinking down in the mattress. Again, it's not good or bad, But it is a very specific feel and I think it's a feel that is not ideal for a majority of sleepers. But again, it really depends on your body.
Derek (33m 39s):
I think it's one of those things that like, like all mattress types is worth trying if you're in a store to, to see how it works and, and see if it's a good fit. One thing that's really sort of shocked me in the world of purple, you know, they have, well they do have lower spec models, they, they also have sort of fallen kind of towards this like legacy sort of traditional brands where you have models that are now, you know, between, you know, six and $8,000. That just seems silly to me just to spend that much on, on a mattress. So I've, I've been disappointed to see some of those trends with purple.
Brian (34m 10s):
Yeah, I I noticed they do, they do score well on the cooling side of things.
Derek (34m 16s):
Absolutely. The the grid does great because it's, it's mostly air, you know, it's the, it's literally a, a grid that they pour, pour this thing out into a mold and so you have enough to sort of like support and comfort the body. But it used to have all these air pockets and whenever you introduce more air into a mattress in general, you're going to end up with better cooling.
Brian (34m 37s):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I learned that all just from a, an air mattress. So if you really want something really good cooling, I, oh, do you do air ma do you review air mattresses or
Derek (34m 47s):
Done that mattress is an area we haven't done much testing on. I've, I've done, you know, some personal trials over the years, but nothing, you know, crazy. But it is an area i, I want to test and then plan to. And so sort of as, as we have time, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna hit that one hard So we will, you know, order, order every air mattress on the market probably and and, and do our best that to test everything. Yeah.
Brian (35m 7s):
Yeah. I like to ask this question for most guests, like what's one thing you've changed your mind on in the past? I mean, you've been testing for over 10 years.
Derek (35m 18s):
One thing I've changed my mind on, I think it's, it's gotta be changing my sort of preferred mattress type on Microsoft. If I look, I go back, you know, 20 14, 20 15, I was really sort of enamored with sort of the idea of a sort of a universal foam comfort mattress where a 10 to 12 inch mattress is gonna meet the needs of practically everybody. And I really believe that and I, I had good sort of reason to i i something my wife and I had experienced and been, we loved it. I had so many readers that experienced similarly and then they love the experiences as well. But over, over time I have, I think I think taken like a more nuance sort of approach to sort of what is best for individual sleepers where I don't really believe in a sort of single best mattress for everybody.
Derek (36m 1s):
I think there are different types of sleepers that work well with certain types of mattresses and my view is trying to just sort of match sort of a, a certain sleeper profile and set of preferences with a certain set of mattresses that are best gonna meet their needs. And so I think there are a lot of good mattresses on the market today for very reasonable and affordable prices that can meet the needs of sleepers, but there's not sort of one single perfect mattress, if you will.
Brian (36m 26s):
Hmm, that makes sense. And the only other question I was gonna ask you was what's like one piece, I think you answered it early on, but like one piece of sleep surface advice that would make the biggest difference for someone's recovery and like their metabolic health over, you know, over the next decade. What would it be? And I think you may you can answer that, but I think you might have answered early on.
Derek (36m 47s):
Yeah, I mean I think, you know, beyond, you know, just getting a, a great mattress that matches your needs and preferences. One of the biggest things I think about is high performance sheets. And the reasons why I think sheets are so impactful is because cooling is so impactful on the mattress. There's just countless studies that show when we sleep cooler, we sleep deeper, we sleep better, we sleep, we get better rest. And so to that end, getting a, a high performance set of cooling sheets, even on a lower performance mattress is going to create better cooling, better breathability, it's gonna allow you to sleep deeper and just get better rest. And so I, I'm a big fan of a brand called Sheex.
Derek (37m 28s):
I also like bed gear. They make basically high performance polyester sheets and it's basically like Nike dry fit type material. It's super elasticy and stretchy, it looks great when they're on the bed, but they do an incredible job when it comes to, to cooling and wicking moisture away. And so those are really, really impressive And I think for anybody struggling with, with cooling the benefits of a set of sheets like that can be tremendous.
Brian (37m 55s):
So the, you said bed gear, what was the first one you said?
Derek (37m 58s):
Sheex, S-H-E-E-X.
Brian (38m 2s):
Okay. I'll look into those.
Derek (38m 3s):
Those are, those are sort of the, the two big, I don't, I don't even think there's many other companies that are there doing what they do. They are a really sort of u unique product.
Brian (38m 12s):
The the Sheex one is,
Derek (38m 13s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brian (38m 16s):
Well this was great. Anything el anything else? Did we miss anything?
Derek (38m 21s):
No, this was great. I I I love getting to nerd nerd out about my my mattress stuff.
Brian (38m 26s):
Well, hey, like we talked about in the beginning, it's important and, and I I thought it'd be great to have you on to just talk mattresses and I think it's something that gets overlooked and Yeah, so if you're looking for ways to, to analyze a mattress, nap lab, best place is nap lab.com right? A anyone come close to your competitors? Anyone else do a lot of, I mean I'm, there's a lot of review companies out there now do you, do you put stuff on Instagram or anything or do, is it mainly just your website?
Derek (38m 59s):
No, we are everywhere. If it's social media, we're on it. So we're on Instagram, we're on X, we're on Facebook, we're on Pinterest, we're on YouTube, TikTok, everything. So that's awesome. The, if you're, if you're looking for, for master review content, we, we'll be on that platform. But the, the, our website is sort of our, our primary base. So it's nap lab n ap a.com. There we, you have our reviews, our tests, our comparisons a whole lot more. We also have our mattress finder quiz there. So answer a few questions about your needs, preferences, and budget that goes straight to me or remember of my team. And we'll send you back a personalized recommendation within 24 hours.
Brian (39m 33s):
That's great. Love it. Love the website. Lots of testing. Well I appreciate this, Derek. Yeah, thanks for coming on so much. And nap lab.com is the place to check you guys out, take the quiz and yeah, have a great rest of the day.
Derek (39m 49s):
Hey, thank you so much for having me. This was an absolute pleasure.
Brian (39m 52s):
Thanks for listening to the show. I know there's thousands of podcasts out there and you chose to listen to mine. I will put a link in the show notes if you want to connect with my guest. And if you are looking for one-on-one consulting with me, I will put a free 15 minute link so you can set up a call to see if you're fit for my six month health breakthrough program. So thanks again, feel free to rate and subscribe. I would love that to help support the podcast. And till next time, have a great rest of the day and I will see you on my next podcast. Thanks so much.
