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episode #328

Interview with Jayne Buxton: Risks of Plant Based Diets, Reason for Climate Change, and Key Nutrients in Animals!

February 5, 2024 in Podcast


This week I interviewed the author of The Great Plant Based Con - Jayne Buxton!

In this episode, we discuss how diets that exclude animal foods can damage your health along with:

  • Key nutrients you might be lacking if you avoid animal protein
  • Why does a powerful rich church want to take meat off your plate
  • Are cattle to blame for our climate change?
  • The shocking origin of your Kelloggs Corn Flakes breakfast cereal
and her one tip to get your body back to what it once was!

Brian (0s):

Coming up on the GET, LEAN, Eat, Clean Podcast.

Jayne (3s):

Everybody seems to know about B12, for instance. That that B12 is an absolutely essential vitamin. You can't get it at all from plants. So you have to either supplement or get it from, from, from animal source foods. And, you know, it's quite serious. A B12, a serious B12 deficiency, results in neurological damage and brain damage. So it is extremely serious. And, and so I think even that vitamin on its own should make you think, well, are we really destined to eat plants? Only because why would, why would nature make it that way? That we can't get this really essential vitamin right

Brian (44s):

Hello. and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Gryn and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week I'll give you an interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I interviewed the author of The Great Plant Based Con Jayne Buxton. We discussed how diets that exclude animal foods can damage your health, along with key Nutrients you might be lacking if you avoid animal protein. Why does a powerful rich church want to take meat off your plate, Are cattle to blame for our climate change.

Brian (1m 25s):

The shocking origin of your Kellogg's Corn Flakes breakfast cereal and her one tip to get your body back to what it once was. Really enjoyed my interview with Jayne. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All, right Welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I have Jayne Buxton on Welcome to the show.

Jayne (1m 46s):

Thank you. Very happy to be here.

Brian (1m 49s):

Happy to have you on. I've heard John some other Podcasts and I, I wanted to get John specifically because of your recent book, I think March of 2023 came out The Great Plant-based Con Love the title. What sort of I led you down this path of getting into talking about, you know, why plant-based might not be the best way to go for health?

Jayne (2m 15s):

Yeah, well, that's a good question because it wasn't a subject that I had written about before. And I would say that I wasn't an author looking for a subject. The subject literally found me. I became so engrossed in it, passionate about it, and I dropped the other things that I was writing. So it really was a case of the subject was kind of too important to ignore. And the reason it, it sort of came to me that way was 2019 seemed to me to be a year when the plant-based narrative was getting so much louder and stronger and more dominant.

Jayne (2m 57s):

And there were a few things that happened that year, the C 40 Cities Initiative, which was very plant-based, drive through lots of cities around the world, game changers that very famously came out and and attracted a lot of attention and made some young people, a lot of young people that I knew and saw around me made them think about going vegan and feel guilty for not trying it. And I was looking ahead and thinking that we might have a very big health crisis on our hands if somebody didn't put the alternative view to this and start to get some reality checks into this whole discussion. And so I thought about it through most of 2019.

Jayne (3m 40s):

I did research on my own and then I just decided, no, it had to be a book. It had to, I wanted to get out there and be part of the, the discussion.

Brian (3m 48s):

Now, at any point were you a vegan or a vegetarian? 'cause sometimes you'll see, okay, no. Yeah,

Jayne (3m 55s):

I know a lot of people in this community have been and they, they've come to Omnivore because their own health failed, that kind of thing. No, that wasn't the case for me. Although what I will say is when I was growing up, I was the u usual, you know, teenager young woman who was enamored of the whole low Fat theory. I loved vegetables more than I liked to meat. And I would, you know, go to a steakhouse and, and have a baked potato and a big salad when other people were eating beef. It wasn't 'cause I was opposed to eating beef, it's just I love vegetables. But later when I got older, and particularly after my fifties, I had noticed that my diet needed to be different.

Jayne (4m 39s):

I needed to be, it needed to be more protein and I wanted, wanted that for every benefit the protein gives you, but for muscle density in the main, it needed to be lower carbohydrate. And so my personal diet did change But. it wasn't from being a vegetarian.

Brian (5m 2s):

Yeah. 'cause you'll see that sometimes people have these big health transformations and then they say, well, you know, I gotta, you know, write about this. But this was, came to you more from, I know you mentioned the C 40 initiative. What was that?

Jayne (5m 14s):

Yeah, so that was an initiative aligned with the Eat Lancet Planetary Diet Initiative. And it was initially 14 cities around the world, including Sao Paulo, Toronto, London, a bunch of others who committed to some initiatives to move towards plant-based. Hmm. And it's written down, they have a sort of manifesto, which is available if you seek it out online. And the goal is no meat and dairy being consumed in those cities by 2050s. It's pretty drastic.

Brian (5m 48s):


Jayne (5m 49s):


Brian (5m 50s):

And did, did they do this mainly because, was it more of a money thing? I don't, you know, a lot of times you see these initiatives and, and it you just sort of follow the dollar and that's the reasons they that, that these cities do this. What were the Yeah, what was the reasoning behind it?

Jayne (6m 4s):

Well, do you know, I didn't look into the dollar connections on that one. No. And I, I don't know that that's the strong reason for this. I think it's, it's a lot of it is virtue signaling when you look at it at the political level, like, like that with a mayor of a city like ours, for instance, it's very much virtue signaling, what am I doing about net zero? How are we gonna get our city towards that? I've gotta be seen to be doing the right thing. And they think that that is the right thing. They think because they haven't done enough research to know what the dangers are, particularly when they start to talk about rolling out all vegetarian programs in schools, you know, with kids under the age of, of 15 and very young kids too.

Jayne (6m 52s):

So that's when it starts to get dangerous. So I was really attracted to the subject and felt compelled to write about it just as a concerned citizen more than anything else. Nothing to do with, as you say, my diet or anything, but as a concerned citizen and a parent.

Brian (7m 8s):

Yeah. Because I, if you listen to this podcast a lot, you'll understand that animal-based Proteins obviously have a lot of benefits like protein bioavailability. You're getting a lot of the things that you're not gonna probably get from plant-based Proteins. What ki, let's talk about some of, maybe what are the some of the key nutrients that you found from, from your research in, in writing the book that people can sort of lack when they're not having animal Proteins?

Jayne (7m 38s):

Yeah, I mean, the list is really quite long. Yeah. I mean, we, everybody seems to know about B12 for instance, that that B12 is an absolutely essential vitamin. You can't get it at all from plants. So you have to either supplement or get it from, from, from animal source foods, And, you know, it's quite serious. A B12, a serious B pro deficiency results in neurological damage and brain damage. So it is extremely serious. And, and so I think even that vitamin on its own should make you think, well, are we really destined to eat plants only because why would, why would nature make it that way that we can't get this really essential vitamin?

Jayne (8m 21s):

Right? So that's the most obvious one. But then you move into things like vitamin A and, and the form that we get from plants is not really vitamin A, it's betacarotene, it's not as bioavailable. And some people can't even convert it to the bioavailable form. You have D three vitamin D three is far superior to the DD two that is found in plants and it's much more active in the body. You have K two, you have he iron versus plants iron, and again, he iron is much more bioavailable. Then you have these kind of lesser known things that people don't talk about a lot, like creatine.

Jayne (9m 5s):


Brian (9m 6s):

That was the one that I was thinking, yeah,

Jayne (9m 8s):

Boring And. what I have found really fascinating as we learn more and I learned something new every day about nutrition, I'm a bit of a geek about it, and I'm always reading the, the latest thing to come along. I noticed in the past couple of months, there've been two studies. One was about the, a particular protein type in dairy, and the other was about creatine. And both of these studies had come out and articles were being written about them, about how, how important they were and how they could be cardioprotective. So I thought, well, this is great. So ingredients or nutrients rather, that are from animal foods are being recognized here.

Jayne (9m 51s):

But then you scroll to the end of the study and rather than advocate for eating the foods that provide these very important nutrients, the authors say, we are working on developing a supplement. And, and it's, people are afraid to recommend that we eat these very important foods where we can get these nutrients. It's kind of like a, a dissonance that we have, you know, all these nutrients are great in animal source foods, but for goodness sake, don't eat the animal source foods because they're bad for you. It's, it's completely mad.

Brian (10m 25s):

Yeah. I, I feel like as a society, we've gotten a little bit caught up on like, what supplement should we take? Or, you know, what protein shake and, and I'm, I take, I do, I do protein shakes every time, not like every day, but from time to time. And I'll add some creatine in there, but Hmm. I think most importantly, if you can get it from the actual foods that you're eating, that that is, you know, from nature itself, that's the most beneficial way of getting any of these nutrients.

Jayne (10m 56s):

Absolutely. And there's a big difference between say, taking one or two supplements because your, your body doesn't seem to, to create that much of the, of the vitamin from the foods. Sure. Or because you can't get access to the particular food that you might want quite as much. That's a big difference from having this multivitamin kind of approach, which you definitely need if you're on a vegan diet.

Brian (11m 21s):

Yeah. Yeah. That would be the big thing. If you're vegan or vegetarian, you obviously would have to supplement a lot more than a lot if you were on more of an animal, animal-based diet. What about the argument regarding climate change? And I know that's a big one. I've, I've read a few books, Rob Wolf has written about it in the past. What did you find from your research that was sort of false, this false narrative around that? you know, being a vegan, a vegetarian is actually good for the climate.

Jayne (11m 49s):

Yeah. It, it is a false narrative and it really has taken hold. I mean, there's almost nobody in regular circles that you can talk to that that won't be shocked if you say to them that actually cows are not the drivers of climate change. So people have really bought this hook, line and sinker. But really I think there's some very, there's a simple way of looking at this, and then there's a more complicated way. The simple way of looking at it is, okay, globally cows are responsible for about 14.5% of emissions. That number is exaggerated for reasons I, I can get into in a moment. But the rest of the emissions picture, 85% of emissions come from other things.

Jayne (12m 35s):

They come from fossil fuel use in industries primarily. So it's those industries which are driving carbon in the air and in the atmosphere rather. So how anyone can think, you know, pat Brown, the other day, impossible Foods founder, was on camera on this latest Netflix documentary, which is diabolical in my opinion. And he was, his, his closing line was that if we got rid of cows, we could eradicate and make up for all the other emissions from all other sources. Now how bonkers is that given that 15, 8, 15 to 85% sort of ratio?

Jayne (13m 21s):

Then you get into the nuances of the, the story, which is the poor cattle, the way their, their emissions are calculated is on a lifecycle basis. So everything that goes into the meat on the plate gets counted. Whereas for something like transport, we only count the tailpipe emissions, the direct emissions. So it's really underplaying transport and overplaying cattle. And if you were to do calculate them in the same way you'd find that globally cattle would be 5% of emissions, whereas transport would be 14. Then you look at countries like the US where beef are responsible, beef cattle are responsible for 2% of emissions, and the picture gets even more ridiculous how anyone could think that we would save the planet by getting rid of that.

Jayne (14m 15s):

You know, and there was a study done 2018, I think it was quite fresh when I started researching this. And it, it calculated it, it was a study by white hole, white hole. And it calculated that if all of America went vegan, we would reduce emissions by about two and a half percent. That's it. And that would be at considerable nutritional cost. So people would suffer as a result of that. So whatever way you look at it, and there are other, there are other nuances as well, which, which do affect the equation. But I think what the bottom line is that the emissions and the, the, the impact from cattle is just overblown.

Jayne (14m 58s):

It's very overblown. That's not to say that we can't improve, that we can't do better things with cattle for the land, for the soil to reduce emissions even more. But, you know, this whole scapegoating is just insane.

Brian (15m 16s):

Yeah. And what was the burger company that you mentioned? The, the plant-based burger. Impossible. Yeah. Possible. Yeah. They've been le trying to sort of lead that narrative, right? Like

Jayne (15m 27s):

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I dunno if people realize this, but Impossible Foods or beyond, I must get this right, but one of those burger, replacement burger companies has entirely funded the Stanford plant-based school, as it were, which is run by Ardent vegans. And, and also, and they, they were the people that did this study, which went into the Netflix documentary, you know, that that was a severely compromised net documentary. It was entirely biased from the get go by, by the funding and by the people who were carrying out the study.

Jayne (16m 14s):

And it's just another, in a long line if those Netflix documentaries, which unfortunately have people persuaded. So I was in an event yesterday and I was talking to a woman and she heard about my book and she said, oh, really? That's very surprising. Tell me something about that. And, and I, and I asked her where she, what kind of information she had, and she said, well, I watched the documentary Cowspiracy and I, I heard that cows are responsible for 50% of all emissions. And she was completely flabbergasted that that was not true, and that it was an exaggeration by three times or more.

Jayne (16m 54s):

So unfortunately, these silly documentaries do have impact and they stick with people and it, it's ki it's kind of depressing to see that.

Brian (17m 3s):

Yeah. You would think like with all these documentaries on either side, like there should be some type of vetting Yeah. That right. Like

Jayne (17m 10s):

Objective. Yeah.

Brian (17m 12s):

Because I mean, you know, we talk about some of the education that goes on that are lack of, or misinformation that's being taught in schools, let's just say, and this is the same thing, like these documentaries are being sent out to the world and people just assume that they're right. It's like, you know, there should be,

Jayne (17m 33s):

Although I do think maybe people are getting smarter. I dunno whether you think that, but I think people are getting more cynical. And again, at another event I spoke to on Tuesday, there were about a hundred people in the room. And the consensus view was that this had been a very quiet v that there's kind of a retrenchment and

Brian (17m 58s):

A very quiet What

Jayne (18m 0s):

V Do you have V over there? Yeah. Oh,

Brian (18m 3s):

Is that, is that a uk

Jayne (18m 5s):

Well, it started, I think it's global, but I think it's quite big here. It's where people go vegan for a month to try it, and it's really promoted by vegan societies and charities and whatnot. And, and it has been attracting more and more attention for the past few years. But this year was super quiet. You didn't hear anything about it much. And so everybody in this room that I was talking to had noticed that. And they'd also noticed that there's quite a retrenchment in the plant-based sector itself, you know, product wise. Mm. People are struggling, companies are struggling, restaurants are closing. Have we reached peak vegan already? Are we about to see a turn?

Jayne (18m 46s):

And is that why people are a bit more cynical about this new documentary that's come out? Are they being, are their eyes already open? you know, I, I wonder.

Brian (18m 55s):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have dry January here. Yes,

Jayne (19m 0s):

We have that too. Yeah.

Brian (19m 2s):

But I've not heard of VV Well, what, how do you say it?

Jayne (19m 6s):

VV January. V January.

Brian (19m 8s):

Okay. I wanted to see that. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because if you look at a label of Impossible burgers, I remember there was a time where I, this was probably like six years ago, was sort of like a pescatarian, and I would occasionally make like a veggie burger on top of a salad and bunch of stuff on it. And I remember looking at the veggie burger ingredients. 'cause I was, at least I was savvy enough to do that. And I was like, I don't want all these things. Like, this is like, so manufactured, like all these, you know, with the vegetable oils and things like that. I, I did find a few that were like five ingredients.

Brian (19m 49s):

I'm like, oh, okay, I can use that. But you know, even the fact that if you look at these, a lot of these impossible burgers. And what's the other company you mentioned Beyond?

Jayne (19m 57s):

Yeah, beyond

Brian (19m 58s):

The Beyond Burger. Yeah. I mean, just looking at the label itself just will tell you whether it's vegan or not, that you probably shouldn't eat it.

Jayne (20m 6s):

Yeah, yeah. And there's a whole new crop of those things coming up. Of course, those highly processed foods, there's one called Wicked Kitchen in the States, and that was again promoted by this Netflix thing. And you look down at the ingredients and it's horrifying. I mean, it looks, there's dextrose, there's methylcellulose, there's fillers galore, there's something that looks very like a trans Fat. It's this strange Fat that they describe that looks very trans Fat like, and But. it made me laugh actually. 'cause the documentary goes along and says, processed foods are very, very bad for you, really bad for you don't eat them unless they're a vegan processed food.

Jayne (20m 47s):

And then they're terrific. you know, so there's this double standard being applied to all of this really highly processed food

Brian (20m 54s):

Yeah. That we should be eating. Right. Just doesn't make sense. I think if you're an informed consumer and you at least have an idea about reading ingredients and labels, it, it just doesn't, doesn't, it's like when I went to get food for my dogs, when I, when I first got, I adopted my two dogs and the vet's like, oh, well you can try what we have. And I look and I'm reading the label, I'm like, is this really what dogs eat? Like Yeah. you know, like this kibble with a, you know, these fillers and these, and And, you know, these ingredients you can't pronounce. And I'm thinking, you know, I think I'm gonna transition 'em to raw and I just feeding them raw, raw, you know, raw diet ever since And, you know, they, they've been thriving

Jayne (21m 35s):

And they're thriving. Right. Yeah. So my sister is a vet in Canada, and she and I have been along on this journey really together. We, we debated a lot about these things. She, she helped me to think about the book and how I wanted to put the message and, but she noticed a long time ago that the food that was being recommended for dogs was just rubbish. It was the equivalent of human crap food. Right. And so she started to recommend, you know, raw feeding or at least grain free, you know, so I mean, dogs really don't need grain, that's for sure. Yeah. So that's what I started, I haven't gone over to Raw yet because my kitchen setup doesn't, I, I'm a bit worried about separating at all, but maybe it's, it's a it's a mountain I need to climb.

Brian (22m 23s):

Well, yeah. And I mean, Now, I buy, like, it's frozen raw, so it just stays in my freezer and then I'll just take it out like five, 10 minutes before they're going to eat. They eat it and then it's pretty easy. It's definitely pretty more Okay. Yeah. Pretty easy for sure. It's definitely more a little, well, it, it can be more expensive because these food companies, these dog companies, you know, they give you, they charge a little bit more for raw food. But of course, it's like anything else you get, you pay for what you get.

Jayne (22m 54s):

And your dogs are healthy. So good.

Brian (22m 56s):

They're great. Yeah.

Jayne (22m 58s):

I can see them wandering around behind you a little bit.

Brian (23m 1s):

Yeah, they were, they were, they're, they're se they've settled. IIII base my, my, when I do podcast interviews around my dogs and, and whether they're gonna be sleeping happy or not. Yeah. Yeah. Let's touch, I think you touched a little bit on your book about sort of the, the, the origin of the Kellogg's Cro Corn Flakes Breakfast Cereal. Cereal. Yeah. Do you mind touching on, on that? I, I think it's, that's been out for a while, but it's, it's very, it's sort of disturbing. I'd say

Jayne (23m 29s):

It is disturbing. I mean, of course the person with the most, in-depth knowledge of this, I always must credit her as Belinda Feki, who lives in Tasmania, who put together the whole picture really. And really this, the story which always fascinates people because nobody really has heard of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, or very few people in their daily lives. They don't see it around, not every village has a Seventh Day Adventist church, certainly in this country. So people are, if I ever mention this or if people read the chapter and and ask me about it, they're, they're always thinking, they, I can, I know that they're thinking, well, why should we really be that concerned?

Jayne (24m 13s):

It's just a little church. It's a fringe church. What, what's the problem? But the problem lies in its origins and in it's how it's interwoven itself into particularly American dietary policy. So, very briefly, l and G White founded the church in 1863 based on a vision from God. And one aspect of that vision was how people should eat. And it should be the Garden of Eden diet, which was a vegetarian diet. She developed a philosophy which was, you know, that meat eating would make cause people to sin to have impure sexual thoughts, masturbation, all of those things.

Jayne (24m 57s):

And j John Harvey Kellogg was a young boy at the time who helped her to type out these pamphlets. So he was obviously reading them all. He was absorbing this message about meat being, making people impure. And he went on to, to found a company which was creating foods that would fight against that. So cereal based foods, which would not make, make them impure. And which was, you know, curb the tide of masturbation and, and terrible behavior by young, young men. So that was the origin of the Kellogg's company. And I think if people knew that that, that that's the origin of modern vegetarianism, they might be a little shocked.

Jayne (25m 44s):

But then it gets worse because his proteges, including a dietician called Lena Cooper, took this philosophy, which is very vegetarian oriented anti meat into the dietetics textbooks. All the schools they founded the school, the dietetics schools. Then they, they started to infiltrate dietary advice committees, the guidelines committees, which have become such a fixture in America and which do influence guidelines around the world. And a great, many of the members of the dietary guidelines committee today are Seventh Day Adventists. And I was shocked right at the outset of this, my research when I came across this study in 2019 by Marco Springman, who's an environmental scientist, but he's also a vegan.

Jayne (26m 35s):

And he came out with this study, which is the typical study that we are seeing these days when people model all the different foods. And it's always animal foods, bad plants. Great. And it was reported globally and in the Economist here, very high profile magazine. And then I looked at the study and saw that it had been peer reviewed by a leading professor at the Seventh Day Adventist University, Loma Linda. And he also sits on the Dietary Advice Guidelines committee. So that's how we continue to be influenced by Seventh Day Adventist thinking.

Jayne (27m 18s):

It's because of the people who were involved in the science, pretending that it's science, when in fact it's philosophy, it's belief, it, it's quite scary actually. 'cause it's really under most people's radar.

Brian (27m 31s):

Yeah. So the origin of Kellogg's cornflakes was Yeah, mainly the help make people not have kids.

Jayne (27m 42s):

Right? I guess so, or no, not have impure sex, I suppose, I dunno what they thought about normal sexual activity. Okay. But. it was, it was impure illicit sexual activity. Masturbation in particular, and undue thinking about this.

Brian (28m 0s):


Jayne (28m 1s):

I guess it was all pretty Victorian.

Brian (28m 3s):

Wow. Yeah. It, it is And, you know, it, it's interesting 'cause you see studies that come out and, and I always say, well, who funded the study? Right? Like, yeah, what's, you gotta sort of follow the money on all this stuff and just be cynical, I guess Is, is that that's the right word? Mm. Or skeptical, I should say. Skeptical on anything, any study that comes out. Right.

Jayne (28m 27s):

And my, my advice to people, if they don't have time to read all the studies, which of course people don't, is go straight to the discussion and the limitations at the end of the study, this is where all authors of studies have to tell you exactly what the study didn't tell you, what was wrong with it, why the results may not be that convincing. That's what you wanna know first.

Brian (28m 49s):

Yeah. And, and like, there are so many studies going one way or the other. It's like you can sort of drive yourself crazy. I think most importantly, I don't, I'm not sure what you think of this Jayne, but like self experimentation, you know, like try it out yourself, see how you feel. I mean, you know, we can always say what our experiences or if we working with clients, what their experiences are, but I'm, I'm always a fan of self experimentation and just sort of finding what, what works for you.

Jayne (29m 20s):

I, I agree. The sort of n equals one experiment, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that they're valuable and, and the re one of the reasons is we're all so different that and our biochemistry are genetics. Everything is so different that what makes you thrive may not make me thrive. And, and vice versa. The only caveat I would add to that is if you are going to experiment with diet and food, be honest with yourself. Mm. And really understand what's happening in your body. Track what's happening in your body. So there's no point in thinking, oh, I'm really thriving on this vegan diet. If you're not measuring your B12 scores stores and five years later they're nothing and you're already suffering the damage, you have to keep track.

Jayne (30m 5s):

You have to be, you have to be on top of it. I think if you're gonna try anything other than a balanced omnivore approach, you have to be on top of what that's doing to your body.

Brian (30m 16s):

Yeah, no doubt. Because sometimes you don't feel those symptoms until years later. Right. You might, yeah. And at, at that point, you know, you might be deficient in a nutrient that, you know, like you mentioned the B12 or whatever else it is, choline, creatine. Yeah.

Jayne (30m 34s):

Or your blood sugars might be outta whack, you know, so you, you need to be keeping on top of glucco, you might be pre-diabetic by the time you discover that you've been eating too many carbohydrates. And this is the thing with a, with a vegan diet, it tends to be high carbohydrate because there is nothing else. You, you've taken all the, the animal Proteins out, you've gotta fill them with something. And those sources of protein and iron that are plant-based tend to come with a high carbohydrate load. It's just inevitable.

Brian (31m 6s):

Right. And, and I'm not like anti carb. I've actually introduced more whole boost whole based food carbs into my life, mainly from fruits. Yeah. But I, I want, one thing I do keep an eye on is like protein intake. And I find with individuals, most people for the most part are undereating protein. I don't think you need to go crazy with it. I think sometimes that gets a little bit blown up. Like I think, like what I've heard is about 0.7 to 0.8 grams per, per, per body weight, per pound of body weight is, is, is sufficient for most people. But if you're not filling it with protein, then you're just adding in a bunch of maybe junk that you shouldn't be having.

Brian (31m 51s):

And protein is obviously very satiating as well.

Jayne (31m 54s):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Brian (31m 56s):

What, what are your thoughts on vegetable oils?

Jayne (31m 59s):

Ah, well I did cover that in the book. I called them One of the bad guys. you know, that, that might sneak into your diet inadvertently if you decide to cut out animal foods animal, because of course you're cutting out animal fats, so you're bound to use more vegetable fats and vegetable oils are cheap and they're ubiquitous. They now, they, there's their biochemical content, which, which makes them bad for our health because they oxidize so easily when they're heated and in the body, So we get oxidation. And that's never a good thing.

Jayne (32m 40s):

They also have a very high omega six content. And, and really that we need to be watching that because our, the omega six content of our diet has increased dramatically in the past 50 years. The content of our adipose tissue has increased. So Omega six linoleic acid is, has gone from about 9% to 22% in in those 50 years. And that can't be good. It can't be normal. It's not the way we're rebuilt. It's not, it's not the way it should be. So I avoid them like the plague. But to avoid vegetable oils, you have to avoid processed food because every, almost every processed food has vegetable oil in it because it's cheap.

Jayne (33m 26s):

They're never gonna put go put butter and they're rarely gonna put olive oil.

Brian (33m 32s):

Yeah. I recently, it's not out yet, but I've had 'em on a bunch. Jay Feldman, I don't know if you're familiar with Jay. He Oh

Jayne (33m 38s):

Yeah. I love his one. He's great. Yeah.

Brian (33m 41s):

And he, yeah, he's part of sort of that bioenergetic viewpoint on maximizing cellular energy. And one of the culprits of maximizing cel energy is this high pofa content that you're getting from vegetable oils, especially cooked vegetable oils. So it, yeah, it's definitely a narrative that, that seems to ring true. I mean, I just go back to like the common sense of like, if you just research how they make vegetable oils Yeah,

Jayne (34m 9s):

Yeah. Right. Do you have about that in your body? Yeah.

Brian (34m 13s):

Yeah. Like, it's just like, okay, this just doesn't seem right. Like I don't care, like what the experts say. Like, I like this refinement process just doesn't seem right.

Jayne (34m 24s):

It's so mechanical, isn't it? And yeah, it's, it's extraordinary that, but I think you're right. That's, it's a, it's a common sense approach. If you just throw, ask people to think about that, they would come to the right conclusion. you know, whereas our, our ancestors are, our grandparents were eating goose Fat, you know, butter tallow.

Brian (34m 48s):

Yeah. Back, you know, they weren't, they weren't eating low Fat snack wells. You remember those?

Jayne (34m 52s):

They sure were not. No,

Brian (34m 55s):

I remember my mom bought those And, you know, I was younger at, I don't know how the 10 years old, let's just say. And yeah, I never liked them. I always thought they just tasted weird. Do you know what I'm saying? Some people like, they, they

Jayne (35m 6s):

Taste fake to you. Yeah.

Brian (35m 8s):

They just,

Jayne (35m 8s):


Brian (35m 9s):

There was something that was wrong. Just like my intu I remember thinking back and I never really liked them. Those snackwell, low Fat ones. I'm sure we, if you're, if you're in, if you're probably 30 or 40 and above, you probably remember those, that low Fat phrase.

Jayne (35m 25s):

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian (35m 26s):

What types, like what's your routine? I, I like asking about routines. I'm just curious, Jayne, like what's your routine as far as just like eating and, and, and how do you sort of balance out your meals throughout the day?

Jayne (35m 41s):

Well, I am, I would say I'm mostly low carb. I'm not fanatical about it, but I do better without too many carbs. So I'm usually under 40 grams of carb a day. 50 grams. A blowout day would be definitely 70 grams of carbs. I eat probably two meals a day. So most of the time I'm eating late breakfast, early lunch, and then dinner. And more recently I've added in an electrolyte drink in the morning just to get my hydration up. And I do a 24 hour fast about once a week.

Brian (36m 25s):

Oh. So,

Jayne (36m 27s):

And I don't, don't

Brian (36m 27s):

Like a, like, like dinner to dinner sort of thing. Dinner to dinner.

Jayne (36m 30s):

Yeah, exactly. And it's not very difficult. you know, you're hungry by the time you get to an hour before your next dinner. Yeah. You're hungry. But, and the reason I do that is partly about keeping weight under control, but it's also trying to get some sort of auto benefits of autophagy, which now it's debatable whether at 24 hours I'm getting those benefits because I have read that it, they don't really kick in till you get to 48 hours all the same. I think it can't, I can't be bad. I must be getting some benefit for that. And maybe I'll work my way up to the 48 hours every now and again.

Jayne (37m 12s):

But, but, but somebody asked me the other day how had my thinking changed since I wrote the book. And really, I'm just much more conscious and I'm much more aware that the reason I'm eating food is for nutrition. It's a little, of course it's about taste. It's about entertaining people, it's about culture, it's about enjoyment, family sharing, food is all of those things. But at its very core, I want it to make me really healthy, to make me, you know, to enhance my longevity to, to en enable me to enjoy life.

Jayne (37m 52s):

And so I'm very conscious of trying to get all the nutrients that I want and it's always in the back of my mind, you know?

Brian (37m 59s):

Yeah. I mean, that's a great way to think about how, how to eat, right? Like I always say like obviously being active is important as well. And, and whether one comes first or the other for, for some people that I work with, if you get them moving and doing the right things, let's just say strength training, which I think is really important for anybody. Yeah. Especially as you get older, then they start to become more conscious of what they want to eat, And what they wanna put in their bodies because they know they want to perform at a certain level. And, and that's really what food is meant for Right. To maximize, like Jay would say, your cellular energy and perform at, at, at sort of the peak level that you can get to. Yeah.

Brian (38m 40s):

And so that's why it's like you, like you said, you perform maybe a little bit better on a lower carb approach. I've tried both. I mean, I, I go back and forth a little bit, but like I've tried eating certain things and tr trying some pre-workout things and post-workout and just sort of seeing what works. I will say just some people, I think it, there's, it can be a little bit like a false presumption is like if you go from a standard American diet and then you go to any diet that takes out processed foods, you're gonna probably feel better, right? So like people will go from a standard American diet to a vegan or vegetarian diet. They might feel better, which is obviously rightfully so because they're not, they've gotten rid of a lot of the, the processed foods that they were normally consuming.

Brian (39m 25s):

But you gotta ask yourself eventually, will will this serve me in the long term? you know?

Jayne (39m 31s):

Yeah. And, and people call that the vegan honeymoon, right? So you can feel good and the honeymoon might last a few months in some people it might last a few years in other people, but at some point for most people, it kick the end of the honeymoon comes, it arrives and you don't feel good. Which is why we see, you know, the typical duration of vegan diets is about three months. People try it and then they go back, they'll go back for different reasons. But I think one of the main reasons is gonna be they don't feel good.

Brian (40m 2s):

Yeah. Well this was great. What your book, you came out March of 2023. How long did it take you to write it?

Jayne (40m 11s):

Well, it came out March 23 in the US I think. 'cause it was later than in the uk. It was Mar it was June, 2022 in the uk. So it's two years old here now. The paperback is 1-year-old. And, sorry, what was your second question? Was it what next?

Brian (40m 31s):

It was, oh, I just asked you how long it took. I've written a couple books. I'm always curious how

Jayne (40m 34s):

It took a couple of years and then a year in editorial and legal because it was, when it hit the publisher's desk, when I submitted the final version, the lawyers were a little bit antsy about it because I was being critical of quite a lot of established organizations and people So, we, we went over it to be very careful about exactly what I was saying and whether it was libelous or not. So that was a long process and probably a worthwhile process.

Brian (41m 10s):

Yeah. They wanted to make sure that you weren't stepping on too many people's toes.

Jayne (41m 16s):

Yeah. Or at least if I was gonna step then be very sure about the facts that are backing up. And I think it's really interesting because nobody has come forward to question what, what I've written now could be 'cause they're just ignoring me. Or it could be because you know what I'm saying is true. And then if they protest then we, you know, their secret is gonna come out, isn't it?

Brian (41m 41s):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the great plant-based Con.

Jayne (41m 46s):


Brian (41m 46s):

Why eating a plant-based diet won't improve your health or save the planet. Great book. And you can find it everywhere, right? On Amazon it's on

Jayne (41m 56s):

Yeah. And bookstores that are brave enough to stock it, because some of them aren't, or they hide it in the back shelf, so you have to go find it sometimes.

Brian (42m 4s):

Mm. Okay. Yeah, that I like, I had a, I wrote a kids book years back and I was getting it into different small bookstores, which was great. But you know, we know that like, I don't know what percentage of book sales is online, but I'm sure it's a high percentage. Yeah.

Jayne (42m 20s):

Yeah. It is. It is. And And, you know, if, if it gets more books into more people's hands, that's great. Yeah,

Brian (42m 26s):

Yeah, yeah. 'cause I think books like this are important to read and And, you know, th there there this narrative that, you know, you must go plant-based to be healthy, I think is, like you said, I think it is sort of maybe quieting a bit from just people like yourself and just getting on Podcasts and getting the word out.

Jayne (42m 45s):

And I talk to anyone I can about it in my real life too. So I'm probably before, but it's part of my role.

Brian (42m 53s):

Yeah, no, I hear ya. And I appreciate you coming on the podcast. I'll ask you, actually, let me ask you one last question. If you were gonna give one tip, I might know it, but maybe, maybe it's something a little different to individuals who are looking to get their body or mind back to what it once was 10, 15 years ago. What, what one tip would you give them?

Jayne (43m 14s):

Can I have a two part tip?

Brian (43m 16s):

Sure. We'll give you two.

Jayne (43m 18s):

Stick to real food. Avoid stuff in packages. That's a pretty good rule. And make sure you have some animal source foods at every meal, even if it's just an egg, please. Because they're super foods, eggs. And I think you can't go too far wrong if you do that.

Brian (43m 38s):

Love that, love that. Well, Jayne, I appreciate you coming on. Love the book. And we will put Links in the show notes for everybody to check out your materials. And thanks again for coming on the podcast. Thank

Jayne (43m 51s):

You very much. Okay. Have a good day.

Brian (43m 52s):

You as well. Thanks for listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast. I understand there are millions of other Podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.

Jayne Buxton

Jayne was born in the UK and has lived in Canada, the US and the UK. She has an MBA from IMD Busines School and a master’s degree in creative writing from Kingston University. She spent fifteen years working as a management consultant specialising in business strategy and data analysis at a major international consultancy before publishing her first work of nonfiction, Ending the Mother War, Starting the Workplace Revolution in 1998. The book was called a ‘fiercely intelligent’ exploration of the entrenched positions and false choices faced by women wanting to combine motherhood and careers, and led to Jayne being recognised by the Guardian as one of the women writers driving a ‘quiet revolution’ in feminism.

After the publication of Ending the Mother War, she became a regular spokesperson and writer on work-life issues. She founded a website and consultancy for working parents, Flametree, which was later incorporated into the human resource practice of a major consultancy. After leaving Flametree, she turned to writing full-time.

Like Ending the Mother War, Jayne’s new book, The Great Plant Based Con, challenges the dominant narrative about an important issue and proposes a compelling alternative perspective.

Jayne supports the Public Health Collaboration and The Real Food Campaign, organisations working to leverage the power of real food to improve public health.


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