Brian (1s):
Coming up on the GET LEAN Eat Clean Podcast,
Jay (4s):
The state of obesity is a state where we're actually deficient in energy. And what's happening is that the fuel that's coming in, the food that's coming in is not being able to be converted to energy. And so instead is being diverted toward body Fat. And this is why when somebody is in this state, they are dealing with all sorts of issues. In addition to the weight gain, they are dealing with issues of low energy, fatigue, lack of focus, issues with digestion and immune function and on and on and on all the metabolic syndrome. And these are actually products of a lack of energy. And this is again, pretty counter to what we're often told is going on in the obesity state where there's excess energy. And so again, the, the crux of the problem here is actually that there's problems converting the food to energy.
Jay (49s):
And so instead the food gets diverted to be to being stored as Fat. So we're left with low energy and excess Fat storage, which also leads to perpetual hunger. And then that leads to a quote, overeating state. But it's not even overeating per se, it's just that there's a low energy state that's telling us that we still need more and more food cuz we can't convert it efficiently. To energy
Brian (1m 9s):
Hello. and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm m Brian Gryn and I here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I interviewed health researcher and coach Jay Jay Feldman. This is Jay's fourth time on the podcast and we discussed how to optimize your mitochondrial energy along with Ways to Improve Gut Health Fat Burning versus Glucose Burning Constructing, the Ideal Diet to Maximize Energy Does Fructose Cause Fatty Liver Disease and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was.
Brian (1m 53s):
Really enjoyed my interview with Jay. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. Welcome to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I have Jay Feldman on welcome to the show.
Jay (2m 5s):
Thanks for having me Brian.
Brian (2m 7s):
Yeah, on for the fourth time, glad to have you back. We're had you on for solo and then a couple of friendly debates with Dr. Dom dagostino and before we get into some topics, maybe give the audience a little bit of explanation of you know, what you've been up to and and sort of the biogenic viewpoint as well.
Jay (2m 25s):
Sure. So I'm a health coach and independent health researcher and come from what's called the bioenergetic view of health. And this is work that comes from the idea that energy, talking about the energy that's produced in our mitochondria is the main driver of our health. And a lack of that energy is what leads to dysfunction. And so it's a lens through which we can look at health and any disease process or symptom or you know, look provides context for nutrition or exercise, whatever it is, we can look at how those things affect our capacity for energy production or how they affect our energy balance and then determine how it'll affect our health.
Jay (3m 6s):
So that's the perspective of health that I'm coming from and it took me quite a while to get to that point. I've been through all the range of diets around vegetarian to keto and low carb iterations and fasting and, and the whole bit. And it's been, I don't know, maybe near about 10 years or so, almost nine, nine years or so since diving into the bioenergetic perspective of health and that's where I am currently.
Brian (3m 35s):
Yeah. And I don't know if I asked this last time, but did you come across Dr. Ray Pete? Is that what got you intrigued? Cuz I know like Georgie Dink talks about how he used to read, he read his articles and that sort of just struck with him. Is that how you came across it or?
Jay (3m 49s):
Yeah, so the first, the first introduction I had to, it was actually from one of Danny Roddy's YouTube videos. He was talking about some issues with low carb in terms of carbon dioxide production and a few other things metabolically. And I saw this video and it was so out of left field to me it was talking about aspects of physiology and health that I had never heard of before. And so I saw that video and kind of didn't think much of it but that was my very first foray and then maybe a year later, so came back around and was looking for, I don't, I don't know what it was but you know, always looking at researching health and looking at people who would get referenced in different places. And so then kind of made my way back in and yeah, then I read Danny Roddy's book and found Ray Pete And, you know, spent a lot of time reading through his articles and books and listening to his interviews and all of that.
Brian (4m 40s):
Yeah, Ray Pete recently passed away this this past year and if you, you know, if you check out his website, there's a lot of really in depth articles and you know, one of the things that I've had georgi dink off on, I have him on again and he talks about obesity as an endocrine problem. And a lot of times we're hearing obesity is maybe a sugar issue or insulin, you know, carb issue. What is your take about maybe your thoughts regarding obesity?
Jay (5m 15s):
Yeah, so I would say obesity is an energy problem and endocrine problems are superimposed happening on the energetic front. So it's really helpful to look at hormones. That's what, when we're talking endocrine, we're talking about hormones, we're looking at stress hormones like cortisol, we're looking at thyroid hormones, we're looking at the reproductive hormones and on from there. And those things are really helpful when we're trying to get a gauge on where somebody's at because you can't always see what's happening on, you know, on the, in the cells and the mitochondria So, we can look at hormones as a proxy there, but those hormones are just signals and messengers that are being produced or inhibited in response to what's going on in terms of the energetic state.
Jay (5m 58s):
So it's really helpful to think of things in terms of hormones, but I think it's also really helpful to keep in mind that that is a level of separation from the underlying driver of a state, which I would say comes back to the energetic state. And when it comes to obesity, and this is where things kind of get flipped on their head and I'm sure, we'll we're gonna dig into this a little bit, weight gain and Weight Loss, but I would say that this is actually an issue of a lack of energy. The state of obesity is a state where we're actually deficient in energy. And what's happening is that the fuel that's coming in, the food that's coming in is not being able to be converted to energy. And so instead is being diverted toward body Fat. And this is why when somebody is in this state, they are dealing with all sorts of issues in addition to the weight gain.
Jay (6m 41s):
They are dealing with issues of low energy, fatigue, lack of focus, issues with digestion and immune function and on and on and on all the metabolic syndrome. And these are actually products of a lack of energy. And this is again pretty counter to what we're often told is going on in the obesity state where there's excess energy. And so again, the, the crux of the problem here is actually that there's problems converting the food to energy. And so instead the food gets diverted to be to being stored as Fat. So we're left with low energy and excess Fat storage, which also leads to perpetual hunger. And then that leads to a quote overeating state, but it's not even overeating per se, it's just that there's a low energy state that's telling us that we still need more and more food cuz we can't convert it efficiently to energy.
Jay (7m 25s):
Yeah,
Brian (7m 27s):
It's definitely a different take on things that you maybe here in the mainstream, most people think if someone's overweight they have almost too, like too much energy or or consumption of too much. But really they're just having a tough time conver converting whatever they're taking in into energy. And one of those is like Glucose, right, Glucose metabolism. How are ways, how, how can people become more efficient at metabolizing Glucose to become, to be in a like a better energetic state I guess?
Jay (8m 2s):
Yeah, so there are a lot of ways that we can, that there are a lot of things that can block our ability to produce energy and that is, it's a very sensitive system, especially when it comes to metabolizing Glucose. In fact that is a much more sensitive system relative to Fat Burning. If we're ever having trouble in our mitochondria, if we're under stress, if there's a lot of oxidative stress going on, if we don't have certain nutrients, whatever it is, we go to our default backup, which is the Fat Burning. So you know, and you can see this in every degenerative state, if you look in diabetes, if you look in heart disease, if you look in cancer and that's a, a detailed one that maybe will come back to another time.
Jay (8m 42s):
If you look into neurodegenerative states and all these situations, there are problems Burning, Glucose and the body shifts toward utilizing mostly Fat. And that is again, because our ability to use Glucose is very, very sensitive to what's going on in the environment. There's a lot of things that can disrupt it. Everything from a lack of certain vitamins and minerals to psychological stress, to heavy metals to endotoxin which is produced from bacteria and the intestines and on from there. I mean there's so many things that can influence that. And so that's really where we wanna be putting our focus. And that's why something like sleep matters a lot or or how much sleep we're getting in our circadian rhythm have dramatic effects on our ability to use Glucose and, and the impact on our mitochondria is pretty dramatic.
Jay (9m 27s):
So this is why, again, coming back to the bioenergetic view, why we want to be looking at things in terms of how they affect our energy production and we can, I'm happy to dig through specifics there, but there are, yeah, quite a few different things that are going to impair our ability to use the fuel to convert it to energy. And that's where we wanna put our focus, especially if somebody is dealing with is trying to lose weight. And that is the opposite of what we're told, right? What we're told is there are never any problems there, let's go the, as soon as we get fuel it's energy, the, there's no difference between those things. There's no concern about that process. And so instead as you were saying weight gain and obesity is a state of excess energy and then you just have all this spillover that that's going to to body Fat.
Jay (10m 12s):
And so then if that's the perspective, the solution is well you just need to eat less and exercise more. And I think that is about as bad of advice as exists, right? Now, I think that's some of the worst things. I think the impact of that has been worse than almost any other nutrition advice. I think that that's led to incredible damage to our culture and society. And so that, yeah, that is something I think we definitely wanna work ourselves away from and instead focus on how well we're using the food that's coming in and what types of foods are better used considering our human physiology and that's really where we wanna focus as opposed to eating less or exercising more. I think that that's a recipe for disaster.
Brian (10m 53s):
Yeah. And you mentioned how Fat Burning is a backup system. Maybe go a little bit more into that because a lot of people, including myself for a while before, probably since the last few years under thought that, you know, you, you wanna get into this Fat Burning state, you wanna get insulin low. And a lot of people are thinking, you know, that's why, you know, obviously the craze with the, you know, low carb And, you know, less unprocessed carbs, which I don't disagree with that, but getting into a Fat Burning state is like the goal of probably 80% of the people that are into the health scene. Maybe explain a little bit about why that's maybe not the route you want to go.
Jay (11m 35s):
Yeah and it's, it's funny, I think a lot of that's born out of misconception cuz here's the thing, if you want to get into a Fat Burning state, you could just induce diabetes. That's a Fat Burning state right there. So the interesting, I think what's really happened is we've come to, we've come into this with preconceived notions that people are overweight and have excess body Fat. So there must be a Fat Burning problem. And I, that is an assumption that I would say is definitely not true. So we've come in with this assumption that people are having trouble with Fat Burning just on average. And then we've come up with this, these things like metabolic flexibility where we all are, our standard is Glucose Burning and we need to shift, we need to be able to go back and forth.
Jay (12m 17s):
We need to be able to burn Fat more and all of that. And again, when we have mitochondrial problems it will make Fat Burning less efficient as well. But that is the default state. If we don't eat anything, if we're under stress, if we aren't oxidizing Glucose, well like, like we're in diabetes, if we're in, again, if we're in heart disease and we look at what happens at the heart and all of these degenerative states when things are growing wrong, we increase Fat utilization. It's something that happens a lot in Fatty Liver disease. So you have this, this kind of supposed paradox where there's this increased Fat storage and Fat production at the Liver, but there's also increased Fat, Burning increased lipolysis, increased stress hormones leading to the release of Fat, all of the Fat activating Fat Burning machinery is upregulated everything that we're trying to do when we're going low carb and keto, that is what's happening in these degenerative metabolic syndrome type states.
Jay (13m 7s):
And So, we, we've started off with I think a false premise built on false assumptions that Fat, that a lack of Fat Burning is the problem. And when we actually look at what's going on in the Fat stores and there have been these clear metabolic ward studies where they see that you can be on a low carb diet and you can be Burning more Fat with lower insulin and having more Fat released from the Fat stores and still be losing less body Fat cuz there's also more Fat coming into the Fat stores. And on the, on the flip side, you can be on a higher carb diet Burning, less body Fat and still losing more body Fat because the pro, because in that case you're storing less body Fat. So we've just focused in on this one piece of the equation of how much Fat are we Burning when it doesn't acknowledge what, you know, the whole flow in and out of of the Fat stores.
Jay (13m 53s):
And I think even that is almost beside the point. But yeah, I think that we are just operating on false assumptions there. And I, I don't get me wrong, I mean I've been there too. I know you were saying that you've been there and, and I used to think that the problem was everyone was oxidizing carbs and the problem was that we needed to get, become better Fat burners. But when you actually look at what's going on in these states, Fat Burning is, is part of the problem. That is what happens when things are problematic. And there is one caveat here that's important, which is that Burning carbohydrates doesn't always mean the same thing. So, we can oxidize Glucose through oxidative processes, meaning that we go through glycolysis and then we go through the Krebs cycle and then we go through the electron transport chain and that Glucose goes all the way through there.
Jay (14m 39s):
I mean it doesn't say Glucose, but the, the Glucose gets oxidated and we end up with a decent amount of energy there when we are in a degenerated state, in addition to Burning, more Fat, we also run through glycolysis more and glycolysis is the first step there, the first part of, of Glucose Burning. And because there are blocks farther down, we can't use the Glucose all the way. And that's a problem that don't get me wrong, that is not a good thing, but that is not caused by the sugar, it's not caused by the carbohydrates, it's not caused by carb Burning that is caused by mitochondrial dysfunctions caused by issues in terms of our ability to produce energy. So we're stuck in like a very inefficient Glucose Burning along with Fat Burning and yeah, that's not a great state to be in, but also that is not the same thing as fully oxidizing Glucose in a healthy metabolic state.
Brian (15m 29s):
And you mentioned mitochondria, what are ways individuals could enhance their mitochondria and be more efficient? I mean, you know, you you there's so I think yes, there's so many different avenues to come to come with, I know Gut health's a big one, right? What are some ways that people could sort of, you know, cuz you'll hear about fiber, you'll say people, some people say fiber is great, some people fi say fi fiber's not good. What are ways people could sort of improve their Gut health? And I know there's sort of some nuance beyond that, but I I I I'd imagine that's just, you know, sort of one pillar of improving your sort of mitochondrial energy.
Jay (16m 12s):
Yeah. When it comes to improving energy production, improving mitochondrial function, the biggest thing is taking away the blocks. It all flows well. We don't need to focus on doing extra things to stimulate it with, you know, weird supplements and And, you know, all sorts of hormetic interventions. Our mitochondrial will work totally perfectly well if they have the right fuel and nutrients and everything and they aren't being inhibited or blocked. And so as you're getting at, one of the most common things that will block mitochondrial function is endotoxin and other bacterial toxins. And it's not the only one we can talk about PolySci trade fats and, and other things like that. But that is one of the main ones. And it directly impairs electron transport, you know, different complexes of the electron transport chain.
Jay (16m 56s):
It directly impairs certain enzymes in the Krebs cycle. So there are these, these blocks in terms of our ability to produce energy. So another way of saying this is if you don't have great digestion and you are producing a lot of, or you have a lot of unhealthy bacteria that produce a lot of endotoxin, which is also, it's also known as LPs or lipopolysaccharide, then that is going to directly block your ability to use the foods that are coming in. So you're gonna be consuming the carbs or the fats or whatever it is, the mitochondrial function is blocked and that is going to increase the storage toward Fat. So what we have is a situation where our Gut health has a really dramatic effect on weight gain and Weight Loss and also every other condition that's all affected by energy.
Jay (17m 36s):
And so correcting or improving our Gut health, as you were saying, is, is really, really important here in reducing that endotoxin load. And you see excess endotoxin, metabolic endotoxemia in all these degenerative states. You know, you see it in every, so you know, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, Fatty, Liver disease, on and on, it's, it is a key feature here. It's a really common problem. And So, we want to improve that and there's a few things we want to consider there. We wanna make sure that we're digesting our food well, that we're eating easy, easy to digest foods and we can talk about what those might be. And then we wanna make sure that we have a good balance of bacteria in our intestines and we can talk about what that would look like. And that also might involve reducing the bacteria that are producing a lot of endotoxin.
Jay (18m 20s):
It also might involve a situation where if you are dealing with excess endotoxin producing bacteria or any excess bacterial overgrows, then feeding them with fiber as you were suggesting can be problematic. And so this is a situation or a period of time when reducing fiber can be really, really beneficial. And this is part of where one of the main places where low carb diets, ketogenic diets, fasting carnivore, all of that are really, really helpful is they provide this relief from the feeding of these bacteria that are producing a lot of endotoxin. And that relief is huge. It goes, I mean you see it in the research when they take, for example, they'll take rats or mice that are, have Fatty Liver disease due to Fructose consumption.
Jay (19m 5s):
They give them antibiotics to clear out the bacteria. No more Fatty Liver disease, no more issues with eating pure Fructose that doesn't get absorbed. And again, this is not a Fructose problem, but this is more of just a evidence of how impactful these bacteria are. And you see it in, you see, can see it also when looking at the impacts of ketogenic diet on neurological function and seizures for example. So there's studies on mice where they have a mono ketogenic diet leads to all these benefits and seizures, then they take another group and they just shift over the microbiome. They, they do a transplant of, of the microbiome from the keto mice to non keto mice and they have all the same benefits and they also have much less endotoxin. And when they bring the endotoxin back, it causes the same problems that were going on prior.
Jay (19m 48s):
So you have this very clear culprit here, not the only culprit, but a culprit in these bacterial toxins. And endotoxin is kind of like a, a catchall, it's, it's specific to toxins produced by gram-negative bacteria specific to LPs, but there are others too. And So, we can kind of use it as a catchall to just say these bacterial toxins that get produced. And so when we're in a state where we have excess production of those, not feeding those bacteria by going on a lower fiber diet or a lower FODMAP diet can really help. It doesn't mean it is the best solution long-term. and we generally wanna fix the bacterial balance and then be able to consume some fiber again because that'll help to maintain a healthy microbiome.
Jay (20m 30s):
But in that period of time prior it can be a really important step.
Brian (20m 35s):
Yeah. So one way that if someone's having a lot of issues with their Gut that you know, doing some fasting, maybe even, you know, a little bit of carnivore for a little bit caught will could help right in in the beginning. Y you're not saying that obviously that would be a long term solution, but that's why some people sort of have some, some of these positive effects. you know, if they're going low carb and they're removing irritating foods that were irr, you know, that were bothering their Gut in the first place, you know, sometimes, you know, tough to digest fibers and antinutrients could cause those issues, right? So right off the bat for someone that might be the way to start. And then from there, maybe reintroducing, you know, if you're gonna have vegetables cooked them, things like that, And, you know, fruits and things that are maybe a little bit less irritating to the Gut.
Jay (21m 28s):
Yeah, we've got a spectrum there and I would prefer, I mean if someone's in an extreme state and they need to just cut out carbs for a period of time, I mean there are certain situations where that might be warranted, I'd prefer not to go that route. I would prefer to adjust, say let's shift toward the easily digestible things and maybe let's take out the fibers and whatnot for now and bring relief without the stress of taking out the carbs or without the stress of fasting. That would be my preference. But we have a spectrum here. So the, the foods that are going to be the most problematic, the most likely to feed bacteria, the most likely to lead to this excess end endotoxin production are going to be things like grains, legumes, nuts and seeds. These, as you said, have a lot of antinutrients and this causes all sorts of problems with protein digestion, starch digestion, mineral absorption and on and on.
Jay (22m 14s):
It also causes overgrowth of harmful bacteria like gram negative bacteria. So these antinutrients are a big problem, but also there's fibers in there that can be problematic too. They're generally pretty hard to digest. And so that is a group of foods that just taking those out, if someone's consuming a good amount can go a really long way. You also mentioned vegetables and so a lot of raw vegetables, a lot of that, the fibers, vegetables, those can also be really irritating and they can also be really high in the antinutrients depending on the type. And so that would be another one where we can reduce or avoid those for a period of time. And that can go really long way if someone's in a really extreme state, even the fibers and fruits can be a problem as well.
Jay (22m 54s):
And so normally it's, you know, there's some amount that's well tolerated, but if someone's having a really bad microbiome balance, they might need to reduce fibers from fruit too. And so then we're left with just the super easy to digest carbohydrates like fruit juices, honey maple syrup, things like that. And then working on fixing the microbiome and then slowly bringing back things like whole fruits and cooked vegetables and and roots and tubers, you know, some of those starer things that are, you know, if we're consuming them well cooked and it's a spectrum there and So, we wanna be aware of that spectrum So, we can see where we fit on it because some people just getting rid of the most offensive things and getting to that point of whole fruits cooked roots and tubers, fruit juices, honey maple syrup is perfect and carbohydrate wise they're able to handle that totally, you know, very well and they're not having any Gut issues and for others there's somewhere else on that spectrum that they need to land in the beginning until they can get to that point because they need to work on fixing their Gut first.
Brian (23m 58s):
Now I know, there's people listening right now that'll probably be thinking, you know, that's just not ancestral. you know, fruit juices, did he say fruit juice? you know, fruit juice, fruits, honey now honey, yes. That might be somewhat ancestral. I know that some tribes, you know, that's like something they really crave or they they look for, but maybe explain to the audience, you know, I think ancestral can, can play a role if we look, but sometimes that that's not always optimal. Right. Maybe go a little bit into detail, your thoughts around that.
Jay (24m 35s):
Yeah, I think when it comes to ans the tenant of trying to eat like our ancestors, we have to keep in mind that there are built-in assumptions there. One is that we know what our ancestors ate or would've eaten and we can then create a diet based off that. And two a hu another huge assumption is that it is inherently better to be eating what was consumed before during our, our genetic development, during our evolution as opposed to eating something different from that. And I think both of those are assumptions that are worth challenging. So for one, as you were saying, mo I mean, so there are, if we look at current indigenous cultures, traditional cultures, there are some that are on the lower carb side, although not too many.
Jay (25m 19s):
And then there's some that are on the super high carb side and a lot that are in between, right? And whether they're eating, you know, 80% carbs or less, there's still absence of disease, And, you know, absence of diabetes and, and insulin Resistance and, and all of that. So I think that's worth mentioning. I think the other thing too is if we wanna look at carbon intake, over the last millions of years of development of humans and, and prior apes, the, we were all located in central or centrally in tropical locations, largely in, in Africa, in very warm climates where year-round there was fruit available. And there's a, an article by, so one of the things that people then say is, oh well ancient fruit is not like the hybridized fruit we have now where we've, you know, grown it so that it, it's much higher in sugar.
Jay (26m 5s):
And there's a good article by Denise Minder that talks about how ancient fruits were not all low in sugar and there's a lot of the ancient fruits that are not like modern ones that are very dense in carbohydrates, very dense in sugar. So I think that's worth looking at when, when it comes to that cha, you know, that criticism So, we were in tropical places where year-round it's warm, we have year-round excess to fruit among other potential carbohydrates sources, And, you know, like you mentioned like honey. And so that's one thing to consider and when we consider our, our ape relatives that are currently living in those places, they're diet year round. If we look at for example, chimpanzees, bonobos, I mean they're eating between 60 and a hundred percent of their diet from fruit year round.
Jay (26m 50s):
And those, they're living in the same areas that we've developed for over, you know, nine, 10 million years. That's, that's where we were. So if we're talking about where were we and what were we consuming for most of our evolution, I think it would be hard to say that it wasn't carb rich. And we can look at okay the last maybe 30,000 years that we left those tropical areas, but that is a spec on the timeline compared to the millions prior. So for one, I think that the idea that our, our diets during our evolutionary development where low carb is, is not one that makes much sense I guess I would say. But the other thing is even if that were the case, does that mean that that's optimal And now we're getting into a conversation about genetics and genetic determinism and evolution and to keep that a little short and brief and surface level, what I would say is that's not the case.
Jay (27m 43s):
We aren't stuck with whatever we were eating at that time. We are our, what is optimal for us is not determined by our genes, but rather is determined by what leads to an optimal energetic state. And so if we were limited for thousands or longer years by a lack of carb availability, that could have been something that would've limited our brain capacity or limited our digestive capacity or anything else. And so having access to greater amounts of carbs would actually do the opposite and allow us to shift and adapt in a way toward greater capacity for things like brain function. And there is evidence for this, if you look at the expensive tissue hypothesis, if you look at the spectrum of apes and the ones that consume more fruit and easily digestible food and including sugars and carbohydrates, they have larger brain size and things like that.
Jay (28m 30s):
So there's different lines of evidence to go down there. But I would say again, even if you were somehow to make the argument that we were on a low carb diet prior, that does not mean that that's optimal for us moving forward or at any point we could have been living in a, of course, I mean some aspects of our environment have always been suboptimal. And so I'd say that is an area where now in our modern environment we can make it even better. And so yeah, that's kind of where I would land as far as ancestral eating and carbohydrates.
Brian (28m 56s):
Okay. And the expensive tissue hypothesis, this is done, was this done years ago, I'm assuming? And what was the basis behind that?
Jay (29m 7s):
Yeah, so the idea with the expensive tissue hypothesis is that metabolically, there are certain limitations based on the food we have available and our current physiology. And so if we are consuming, let's say a lot of fermentable carbohydrates like a gorilla, you know, a gorilla relies a lot on leaves and stems and, and very fibrous, you know, carbohydrate things that we don't even consume at all. And so they've, what then happens is those go to their large intestine, they have tons of bacteria there that ferment those carbohydrates into things like short chain Fatty acids and that's where they get a large portion of their nutrition. However, that's very time consuming, very energy consuming to have these huge guts like that.
Jay (29m 50s):
And so what they found is that when they compare the amount of energy, basically if, if you have the system where you only have let's say 2000 calories to work with, if a huge amount is going to the Gut, there's not as much available to go to other areas. And so the expensive tissue hypothesis is this idea that the less energy that we waste on things like hard to digest foods, the more energy is available for our brains and they go through various lines of evidence. So like some of the things I mentioned like the apes that consume more fruit and less of the really fibrous, you know, twigs and whatnot that's fermenting the ones that rely less on fermentation tend to have larger brains, things like that. So that's, that's the basis for the expensive he tissue hypothesis.
Jay (30m 30s):
And if you take that, you know, and apply that to us, what that essentially means is that the less energy that we waste consuming salads and other very fibers things and trying to ferment them, the more energy we have available for other things. If we're instead consuming really easily digestible nutrition sources and calorie sources and So, we can apply this in all sorts of areas. I mean we can say All, right? Well then that's also a reason to be consuming a lot of carbohydrates and not excess protein cuz the conversion from protein to Glucose and then to energy is very inefficient. It's about 30% less efficient than just using Glucose. So if we consider the same idea of the expensive tissue hypothesis, we shouldn't be consuming excess protein beyond our needs and trying to use that for energy cuz it's so much less efficient that leaves less energy for our immune function, for our brain function, for reproductive function and and on from there So, we can apply it in all sorts of of ways, but that's the basis for it.
Jay (31m 23s):
And it also dovetails in with this, you know, kind of coming back to Weight Loss and we don't have to go this route if, if you wanna go another direction, but coming back to Weight Loss, there's the constrained model of energy expenditure which is very related here, which basically says that you can't just expend more and more calories from let's say exercise without it coming at a cost. So if you exercise a thousand calories worth and before you were Burning 2000 calories, that doesn't mean that you just burn 3000. What actually happens is you start to cut into your own basal metabolic rate and you start to cut into your own bodily function. So your reproduction is turned down, your immune function is turned down and things like that. And you don't burn 3000 calories, let's say you burn 2,800 and those 200 are coming from other bodily functions.
Jay (32m 7s):
And so this normally extrapolate, it really also gets at the problems with the eat less exercise, more perspective for or advice for Weight. Loss.
Brian (32m 22s):
Interesting. The ex, yeah, I was just looking up the expensive tissue devices. So we won't go, we won't dive in more into that, but it was a good explanation. And you know, on the, on the note of honey and fruit Fructose is something that gets brought up a lot and I'm actually gonna have a debate on which we'll talk a lot about that on the debate, but what did you, what are your thoughts around Fructose And, you know, people blaming fruit as an issue or fruit juice as an issue for, you know, weight gain and Fatty Liver disease and things like that?
Jay (33m 0s):
Yeah, so I've done deep dives on this on my podcast, the Energy balance podcast for anyone who wants to really take a look into the research, whether it's on Y Fructose doesn't cause Fatty Liver disease or y Fructose doesn't raise uric acid, you know, all all of those things where it doesn't cause Fat gain because there, that is the main perception in a lot of the alternative health sphere right now. And in short, just like any other fuel, whether we're talking about Fatty acids, whether we're talking about protein, whether we're talking about Glucose, Fructose, any of them can be converted to Fat. And what's happened is we've said, Hey, look at this scenario where Fructose gets converted to Fat, that can happen and it actually always happens.
Jay (33m 43s):
Like we've, we've just taken out all of the other possible routes for Fructose to go and said that it, for whatever reason, it's always gonna go to Fat, whether it's going to the Liver or elsewhere. And that is not accurate. And in fact very little Fructose gets converted to Fat, it's gonna go to everywhere else, meaning glycogen or just be used to produce energy or be converted to Glucose. I mean there's all sorts of of routes for it to go before it's getting converted to Fat. And what we've,
Brian (34m 12s):
And I was just gonna say, and I think people come to that conclusion because they say, oh well Fructose gets stored in the Liver and that they just assume, oh well that causes Fatty Liver.
Jay (34m 22s):
Yeah and it does. So Fructose does go to the Liver and it gets picked up by the Liver immediately, whereas Glucose will go out into the bloodstream and can be picked up by the, the muscles and whatnot. But the, our livers have developed to handle massive amounts of Fructose. And so most of the research that is looking at what happens to Fructose and the people who are saying, Hey look, Fructose is just gonna be converted to Fat and whatnot is going on in rats. And there's a few differences, there are a few problems there. One is that rat livers are very different from human livers in their capacity for Fructose handling. So our livers have an incredible capacity for handling Fructose. Hundreds and hundreds of grams can be stored as glycogen can be converted to Glucose or lactate and sent out to be stored elsewhere or used elsewhere and then can also be oxidized.
Jay (35m 6s):
So when we consume excess Fructose in a normal context, in a healthy Liver and whatnot, very, very little is gonna be going to Fat. It takes huge amounts of carbohydrates before you're storing, storing much Fructose Fat or producing much Fat in the Liver through de novo lipogenesis. And that's because our livers have this incredible capacity for handling it alone. They can store more than a hundred grams of, of that Fructose as glycogen, but they can also convert large amounts of it to Glucose and lactate to send out to other areas and they can also oxidize it and then if they're still leftover, then they'll convert some of it to Fat. But again, we're talking very, very small amounts here, you know, a couple of grams even if someone's consuming huge amounts.
Jay (35m 48s):
So that's one important distinction. But there are other reasons why we can't extrapolate the effects of Fructose and rats to humans. And also a lot of it has to do with study design as well where we have this huge problem where so much of the studies, even in humans, they look at Fructose sweetened beverages or like a Fructose only carbohydrate source. And that doesn't exist in our environment. Whether you're consuming fruit or honey or anything else, the Fructose to Glucose ratio is always near one to one. Sometimes there's a slight bit more Fructose to Glucose, but even in like high Fructose corn syrup, people think that must be super, super high in Fructose it's about 55% Fructose and 45% Glucose.
Jay (36m 31s):
We're really not talking about major differences here. And that's important because we, our intestines don't absorb pure Fructose. Well, if there's Glucose present, we absorb it very well. But if there's not Glucose present and you're just consuming a hundred percent Fructose, which again does not exist in nature in any foods that you're going to eat. And so if you consume pure Fructose, we can't really absorb it very well. And so what happens is a lot of it goes past, it doesn't get absorbed in our small intestine, continues going down to the larger intestine where it feeds bacteria, those bacteria produce endotoxin. And that is what leads to things like Fatty Liver production or Fatty Liver disease and Fat production at the Liver. And you see this very clearly in these rat studies where they give 'em per Fructose, there's all these problems.
Jay (37m 13s):
If they provide antibiotics and clear out the intestines, then there's no endotoxin production and you don't have the same effect on the Liver. So that is, you see that very clearly there and it's a totally different ballgame when you're looking at something that actually has near normal amounts of, of Fructose and Glucose. So that's a, that's another huge kind of caveat or or thing to consider when you're looking at any research here beyond just the differences between rats and humans to begin with.
Brian (37m 41s):
One explanation I've heard is like, if you think of any food that's made in nature or you know, yeah, any food that's made nature, like there's not gonna be a combination of high carb, high Fat, it's either one or the other. What, what are your th you know, like fruits obviously is a high, more high, higher carb And, you know, meat obviously is very low carb, maybe higher Fat, but you're not seeing one thing in nature that's both. And a lot of times that could be the issue is when you have high Fat, high carb combined. What are your thoughts around that?
Jay (38m 19s):
Yeah, that's something that's pointed to quite a bit. And then a along with that is hyper palatability, right? So those things taste really good and that must be a problem as well. And I, I don't particularly agree with either of those concepts. So It's true that in nature most foods are going to be high in particular macronutrients. you know, it's rare that you're gonna get high carbon, high Fat, but that doesn't mean that we don't adequately handle carbs and fats together. And when we consume them, our bodies are pretty good at partitioning them to where it's needed. Where, you know, at rest our muscles have pretty high needs for Fat and So. they can take up that those fats and and use them for fuel and places like our brains and our Liver and kidneys, you know, those are going to need quite a bit of carbohydrate and those can take up to carbohydrate.
Jay (39m 9s):
And so if you consume a meal that's 50 50, it's not like you can only use one or the other. Our, our bodies are nice and complex, we're not unicellular organisms. We have lots of different tissues, lots of different organ systems and So, we we're perfectly ade, you know, able to handle both of those things together if we're metabolically healthy and you see that as well. So you see that essentially the percentage of Fat and carb that we Fat and carbs that we consume is going to be about the percentage of Fat carbs that we burn. Again, assuming things are functioning well metabolically and we're consuming healthy fats so to speak and we're not feeding bacteria and all of that, like all of those things aside, we're pretty, pretty good at handling both of those together. And most people have needs for both.
Jay (39m 50s):
I mean we have very clear needs for Fat that aren't just for fuel. I mean there's also structural needs for Fat. All of our cells are made up of, of fats and lipids. We also have hormonal needs, digestive needs. I mean these, these things are, are really important. So I'm not a fan of cutting either macronutrient per se.
Brian (40m 9s):
Yeah.
Jay (40m 10s):
For a healthy person. I should throw that caveat out there. I, I think there is a place where somebody might do better on lower Fat or lower carb and we describe some of that with lower carb. I think for lower Fat there are situations where someone does better with lower Fat if their needs for Fat are lower. But I don't think it's, I don't blame either of them as, as the
Brian (40m 29s):
Culprit. Yeah, I mean I guess when, when you think of high Fat high carb, you think of like a donut or something, right? So like something like that obviously doesn't exist in nature and probably not the best thing to be consuming every day.
Jay (40m 41s):
Yeah, yeah. But I don't have right an issue with potatoes and butter, you know, I think
Brian (40m 46s):
Potatoes and butter, right? True. I guess it's, I guess one's probably just more processed than the other and there's, yeah,
Jay (40m 54s):
Artificial, well I mean let's look at what's in the donut, right? We're talking about wheat, gluten, which is an anti nutrient lectin causes all sorts of problems. We're talking about polyunsaturated fats, right? I mean it's fried in, in seed oils that right are have probably been way oxidized at this point. I mean who knows how long it is that they're using those, but even if it's not oxidized beforehand, it will oxidize in internally. I mean pufa, those poll saturated fats and the seed oils are really effective at blocking our mitochondria's ability to produce energy. So I, I mean I think even if you took the equivalent of that but made it with potato and butter, I think we're to talking about a totally different food regardless of how processed it is per se.
Brian (41m 32s):
And no doubt, I mean a homemade donut is better for you than a one that you get at, you know Dunkin Donuts, right? Yeah,
Jay (41m 39s):
Yeah. And if you're fried in, you know, fried in tallow or something, coconut oil might
Brian (41m 43s):
Try that out. I'm actually don't really like donuts anyways.
Jay (41m 47s):
I do, but I've never tried it.
Brian (41m 49s):
Oh you do like donuts,
Jay (41m 50s):
Homemade, yeah, I love donuts but I mean it's not like a food I eat but I, I would definitely try to make 'em at home at some point.
Brian (41m 57s):
You should try that. Yeah. Yeah. My wife makes like, it's amazing though, you make homemade things and it's like, you're like, why am I buying this? It's like she made like homemade ice cream and I, I don't know if you even can call it ice cream, but it was literally bananas and a little bit of peanut butter and just a blender and, and it like came out. It was just unbelievable. It's amazing. Which you could, you know, you start cooking for yourself and, and I don't know, you just don't wanna go out and buy it anymore. I mean sometimes it's nice the convenience of buying things but you don't, you, you just avoid so many ingredients that you probably have no need eating anyways.
Jay (42m 33s):
Yeah. And there's a huge difference between ice creams that exist, right? I mean you can get good quality ice cream that's milk, eggs, sugar, vanilla, you know, and, and I don't have any issue with that versus one that is all sorts of fake products with oils and corn syrup and carina and gums and things and that's, those are to two totally different foods in my mind.
Brian (42m 55s):
Yeah. What would you say to some people, cuz this is something that I think a lot of people just get tired, right? Like they have a meal, they get tired, And. you know, it's interesting, I've been doing a little bit of, I always do self experimentation but especially after, you know, our conversations over the last year, And, you know, with Brad Kerns and talking with him is, you know, I just found that I wasn't consuming enough and enough protein as well, so I added in an extra meal. So Now I do have a meal in the morning and what I do find is that like that meal in the morning, it's probably 700 calories on average give or take.
Brian (43m 35s):
And it's mainly fruit and yogurt and things like that. And then the middle meal, I sometimes feel like I don't even need the middle meal and if I do, I just try to keep it light because if I think if I overdo that middle meal, I, I get tired. I think of that people, a lot of people run into that. So I, I, I just, I everyone's a little bit different. But your thoughts around people eating and then just, you know, getting that like malaise in the afternoon where you need a app, things like that.
Jay (44m 4s):
Yeah. So I think if somebody's experiencing that, it is worth exploring why that is. And a couple things that come to mind. One could be that we are consuming something in that meal that we don't agree with particularly, or at the moment maybe it's causing an intestinal issue, maybe it's causing a blood sugar issue. Maybe we don't have the insulin sensitivity to consume huge amounts of starch after already having relatively full glycogen stores from a, a meal in the morning. And so if we have this huge amount of rice, you know, white rice that digests really quickly and we get this big bolus of, of Glucose and then we get a crash like that could totally happen and So we want to consider that as a possibility. So I would, I would look at the macronutrients in there, I would look at the, the types of foods in there.
Jay (44m 48s):
I would also consider, I think for the average person, and then, and this might totally not apply to you cuz I'm sure you're, you know, paying attention to your sleep hygiene and, and prioritizing that. But for an average person who is overworked running through life on, you know, five, six hours of sleep of probably poor quality sleep and not, you know, an on and on and on, if you feel if you consume, you know, and, and are running on coffee during the day, if they consume a meal and feel tired after, I don't, I wouldn't necessarily look at that as a bad thing. I mean that probably means that you're relieving like you're running on stress hormones as your baseline and you're relieving those stress hormones. You're bringing those down and you're feeling what you should actually be feeling in that moment. So it's a tough distinction to make.
Jay (45m 28s):
It all depends on someone's individual context, but I think that that's a, a common thing too in a lot of people who I work with is, is they're either undereating or they're overstressed or they're not getting good sleep and at that point they're running on stress hormones and having a drop in stress hormones could be a good thing or would typically be a good thing. So I wouldn't necessarily look at that meal as a, as a problem. However it can interfere with being, you know, the most productive human that you can be. And I think that's okay as well. I don't think we're on this planet just to be as productive as possible, but a bit of a digression.
Brian (46m 2s):
Yeah, yeah. And you talk about stress hormones, I think a lot of people do do run on those quite a bit. you know, obviously when I was doing a lot of fasting, energy levels were really good. I was a little worried about adding in another meal. But what I did find is initially when I added in another meal and I wasn't consumed concerned necessarily about weight gain, but I did put on some weight initially and actually what I found is I've come back to like my, with my baseline, it's really interesting. Like I was probably around 1 72 ish and then, and then and added that extra meal which is, you know, a seven, 800 calories mainly fruit and yogurt.
Brian (46m 42s):
And I was like, oh I think I got up to like 180 at one point, 1 78, 180 and then, but now it's like I'm back down to 1 72 70 eating the same amount, which I find really interesting.
Jay (46m 54s):
Yeah, I had that same experience. It was a bit more weight I went from, but I was, I was on, I was definitely very much under eating. I was coming from local calie, I was coming from a lot of fasting but keto and everything and I was really undereating. So I gained about, I guess it was about 30 pounds
Brian (47m 14s):
When you started, when you started to eat more and okay, so you
Jay (47m 18s):
Came Yeah, so I went from 180 5 to two 15 or so and build some muscle as well, right? But then, yeah, I didn't eat less after that. I did, I was always tinkering and trying to create a diet that felt better for me and, and then the weight came back down to a point where I was as Lean as I was prior with some extra muscle on as well. You
Brian (47m 36s):
Look Lean now.
Jay (47m 37s):
Yeah, well now is a different story. Now it's really tough to keep up with my metabolic grade and make sure I'm getting enough food in otherwise I will lose weight. So on the other side of the spectrum,
Brian (47m 47s):
Let's talk about ways to increase metabolic rate. you know, I think it's one that I know within the biogenic space and, and like Danny Roddy talked about, like measuring your, your pulse and temperature. Like are these, are these things that you do just to see your, me, see where you're at as a baseline or you know, what type of things could individuals do to maybe help raise their metabolic rate?
Jay (48m 11s):
Yeah, so I think as you were saying, having an initial gauge of where you're at is really helpful. You can do that by checking your pulse and temperature. Those are great ways to have an idea of where you're at metabolically. If you're not hitting 98.6 later in the day, if you're not hitting, you know, 97 8 or 98.0 when you're waking up, that can be a sign of a hypometabolic state if your pulse is particularly low, if you're not getting into the mid seventies or potentially low eighties depending on your fitness state, that can also be a sign of, of a low metabolic rate. The caveat with that is that the more cardiovascular fit you are cardiovascularly fit, you are the lower, your me, your pulse rate will be independent of metabolic state.
Jay (48m 53s):
And that's because your stroke volume increases. The stroke volume is the amount of blood your heart pumps with each beat. So you can pump, you can have fewer beats and still pump the same amount of blood. But most people who are chronic, you know, endurance trainers or trainees, you know, exercisers, they will also have a low metabolic rate. So it's hard to parse those two out. But something to keep an eye on.
Brian (49m 14s):
So resting, so resting pulse like first thing in the morning and then temperature first thing in the morning, then maybe do it one more time in the afternoon.
Jay (49m 22s):
Yeah, and kind of like we were talking about earlier, trying to identify if a meal is, is making you tired because of a drop in stress hormones. You can also look at temperature and pulse before and after a meal. And so if your temperature, and I see this a lot, you know, somebody wakes up at temperature 98.4 and then they have their breakfast and it drops to 97.5. That is a situation of a drop in stress hormones where the, someone was waking up in a stress state, their sleep's probably not optimal, they're probably not optimal metabolically, then they're consuming some carbohydrates and their stress hormones drop. If you're seeing that happen after a meal, it's a pretty good sign that that's what's happening. And if you're feeling tired, that would be something to point to to say, okay, it's not actually a bad thing.
Jay (50m 4s):
This is probably just a temporary stepping stone as my metabolic rate improves and as I'm working out of this chronic stress state. And just another little thing to mention there, you had talked about, you know, fasting and low carb is as situations where, or kind of alluding to those situations where you can be relying on those stress hormones or you will be relying on those stress hormones. And so if someone is low carb and they consume a carbohydrate containing meal, even if it's a healthy one, cuz forget the, the fact that we call pizza and donuts, carbohydrates when they're super high in Fat and specifically pine saturated fats for something like the donut. But that aside, if you are, if you're eating a healthy meal of fruit and you crash coming from low carb, that's probably because of two reasons. One, you're probably not metabolizing the Glucose well due to physiological insulin Resistance.
Jay (50m 45s):
And two, you're probably getting a drop in stress hormones when you're normally relying on stress hormones. So just a little tangent there. But using temperature and pulse can be a good way to measure your metabolic rate. Another good way to do it is just seeing how many calories you consume while maintaining your weight. And you can even compare that to a, a calorie calculator, your Fitbit or Apple Watch or whatever it is. And if you're, if those things are saying, well, with your activity and everything else, you should be Burning 3000 calories a day, but you're maintaining your weight on 2200 calories a day, that's a sign that you're pretty hypometabolic. And that's something I see all the time. And in reality, I would say we wanna be higher than what those estimates are from the watch or from the calorie calculators.
Jay (51m 25s):
And so that's another thing that you could do is see at what calorie intake you're maintaining your weight. And as you said Brian, you've just hiked that up by seven or 800 calories. And so the question is, where is that going? Well, that is extra energy for better reproductive function, better immune function, better Gut function, better brain function. So that's huge. That is a huge win. That's normally the first step that I wanna see with somebody is let's increase the amount of food that you can consume while maintaining your weight as a proxy for increasing your metabolic rate. And that normally means a lot like when that happens. It normally means relief from a lot of symptoms normally means a lot better sleep, better relaxation, but also better energy, better recovery. So that's a huge, huge improvement that I like to see and, and that I would work toward.
Jay (52m 8s):
And I definitely had the same thing. I mean, when I was on keto, I was maintaining my weight to, you know, 2000 calories or something like that, 2,400 calories and Now, I, I wouldn't be able to function on that, that's for sure. So
Brian (52m 21s):
What, what, what are you weighing right now and how many calories would you say you're consuming a day?
Jay (52m 26s):
So I don't track my calories very often, but the last couple times I did, I was near 4,000 calories. Wow. 3,800 or above. And I weigh about 180 at the moment.
Brian (52m 38s):
Yeah. So 4,000, 3,800 to 4,000 calories. I do not get to that point. I, that's, that would, I'd be a lot of eating. Let's, let's talk about the finish up. Let's like, I mean, you know, Constructing an Ideal diet. I don't like love that because I do, you know, like we said, everyone's got their own different issues. you know, some type people, like for example, there are, you know, genes where individuals are better off oxidizing or, or can handle certain fats better than others. Like, like for me, I was, I have a gene that actually I have to not go crazy with high and saturated fats and, and bring it down a little bit. But either way, whatever. With, with that, with that said, let's try to sort of construct an Ideal diet and what works for you.
Brian (53m 23s):
Obviously Jay might not work for everybody, but let's sort of talk through that and, and see, you know, you know, get people sort of thinking about what what would work for them.
Jay (53m 33s):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's such a great point. Anytime we're coming to a recommendation or discussion about this is that we have to consider the individual and where somebody's at and the best diet for an individual might be very different now from five years ago and five years from now, or two weeks from now, right? So all things to consider, but what we can discuss as principles, which I think is helpful. And so on the macronutrient side, I think the easiest place to start is typically protein. And that's because our protein needs are not going to change too much based on our context. It's just really going to vary based on our body weight more than anything else. And so in terms of getting the maximal amount of protein for proper repair and growth, but not getting so much that we start to use it as a fuel and it starts to lead to, you know, suppressed appetite and increased stress hormones and things like that, excess ammonia, all of those things that range of, of optimal tends to be 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
Jay (54m 35s):
And if somebody is particularly over underweight, you could say per pound of Ideal weight, because you know, if someone's particularly overweight, that could be a huge amount of protein 0.6 to 0.8, you know much more than is necessary. So you could consider based on Ideal weight, right? And so that is a good starting place and there's some great work by men Hensel men's that shows that even in people who are, you know, heavy lifters and bodybuilders and athletes, more protein does not actually provide any benefit in terms of protein synthesis and muscle gain and all of that. So the 0.6 to 0.8 is even including a decent buffer there, the actual number they found was 0.63 grams per pound.
Jay (55m 16s):
But that's a little bit of buffer, just, you know, in case the protein sources aren't Ideal or you're overestimating or something. So that's a place to start. And when it comes to protein sources in general, I would say we want to be focusing on, you could say animal based. I think that plant Proteins are generally not Ideal and they come with a lot of antinutrients and polyunsaturated fats. So we're talking meat and seafood, we're talking dairy as you know, the main protein sources. And that also when it comes to, when it comes to meat and seafood, that also includes collagen and gelatin as important sources as well. And the important thing to consider when it comes to meat and sea would be that we wanna be staying away from the polyunsaturated fats. So yes, we're concerned about omega sixes in seed oils, but we also wanna be concerned about omega sixes in chicken and pork.
Jay (56m 2s):
Most of the time those are very, very high in omega six s unless they're fed a low proof of diet, which very few places do that. So, and that's because they're eating the, the not the seed oils sometimes, sometimes they're eating the seed oils, but sometimes they're eating the seeds that go into the seed oils that are just as high in polyunsaturated fats. And so that's a major source. Another major source of omega sixes is nuts and seeds. Again, somehow things like Fatty chicken and pork and Fatty and, and nuts and seeds became healthy in the paleos sphere despite omega sixes being considered a problem and vegetable oils being considered a problem. But those have all the same fats in there. So I would, those would be pretty high on my list of things to avoid would be the high.
Brian (56m 43s):
Are there any nuts? I love, I mean actually I shouldn't say I like love nuts. I think obviously I've heard macadamias are a little bit low in little na acid that, so that might be a, a good one if you want every from time to time. Yeah,
Jay (56m 59s):
Yeah. There are a couple of exceptions. So macadamia nuts are very, very low in pva. They're a good source. Hazel nuts are on the low end. They're not super low, but they're low enough that there's a, you know, you could have some of them. Those would really be the only two that I, that come to mind as far as nuts. But also we have things like chocolate, cocoa, which is technically a seed or a bean, but it's very highly saturated and that's because it's tropical. Same thing with coconuts. So like those are exceptions where they're all going to be high in the saturated fats and very low pofa.
Brian (57m 35s):
Okay. So cuz that like if you're doing the nut butter route, you could do macadamia nut butter.
Jay (57m 42s):
Right?
Brian (57m 43s):
Okay. Yeah, yeah,
Jay (57m 45s):
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I don't have any issue with macadamias from the, the Fat side, so,
Brian (57m 50s):
Okay. Okay, so protein 0.6 to 0.8, mainly animal-based, like, you know, like, like you said, meat, seafood and seafood. I know you're not obviously with like salmon not a huge fan cause of potentially the high PUFAs.
Jay (58m 9s):
Yeah, yeah. So we're told that the Fatty fish are the healthy ones and that's because of the omega threes. But I argue that the omega three s have all the same problems as the omega sixes sometimes and more and have the same disruption to our ability to produce energy. That's, there's, there's other details there, but that's kind of the basis for it. And so with that in mind, I'm not a fan of the Fatty fish that are high in the omega three s and I would prefer to have low Fat seafood. So it still leaves a lot. There's a lot of low Fat fish, you know, cod flounder, mahi mahi, certain types of tuna other than blue fin blue fin's high in omega3s halibut, handful halibut. Yeah, halibut, halibut's and other for the white
Brian (58m 49s):
Fish flat of the white fishes. Yep.
Jay (58m 53s):
And it also leaves, you know, the mollusks and shellfish, you know, mussels, clams, oysters, shrimp, crab, lobster, all those things. So it's still a ton of low Fat seafood options that I think are really important. A lot of nutrient density there and, and great protein sources. But yeah, not affinity, omega3s. And I should say the only other, or not the only, but one other protein source to consider as well or to be concerned about the fats is eggs. Where again, we want eggs that are fed that are from really well fed chickens because if not those will be pretty high in in the poly rated fats as well.
Brian (59m 27s):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of eggs. I mean we buy it And, you know, you go to, you buy it from a store and hopefully who knows the label is correct, hopefully the label's correct unless you grow, have your own chickens, which I'm sure you do in Mexico, right?
Jay (59m 43s):
Oh, well in Ecuador, not, not quite. Oh,
Brian (59m 45s):
In Ecuador,
Jay (59m 45s):
I'm sorry. Yeah, not yet. That's on, we don't have our own land yet in our own space where this is just a rental, but we'll be looking for that soon. And yeah, chickens are absolutely on the list.
Brian (59m 55s):
On the list. Okay. Okay. So now we've hit protein, let's go, let's go carb sources.
Jay (1h 0m 3s):
Yeah, So, we kind of laid out that spectrum earlier of harder to easier to digest. So the grains and legumes being the ones that are generally much harder to digest. And so the ones that would Lean away from, if they are traditionally prepared, meaning they're soaked and sprouted or fermented, I think they can be a small part of the diet and not be an issue, but we just wanna be careful with them. They're much more likely to cause problems and sometimes the traditional preparations still aren't enough to really clear out the antinutrients. So I would say on the spectrum, those are the ones we generally wanna Lean away from. Especially like the, you know, wheat flour and and things or non, you know, I would say even worse is like the whole wheat, the whole grains that are not traditionally prepared.
Jay (1h 0m 45s):
And that includes brown rice as well. you know, the, I much prefer the white rice that has all those anti-nutrients stripped from it. So
Brian (1h 0m 53s):
Striped from it. Yeah. Yeah,
Jay (1h 0m 55s):
So,
Brian (1h 0m 56s):
So fruits obviously the least offensive of the carbohydrates. Most fruits, yeah.
Jay (1h 1m 2s):
Yeah, ripe fruits. It is important to mention that on ripe fruit will also have some antinutrients in there. So we want to have ripe fruits, ripe fruit juice, dried fruit, and then roots and tubers, you know, well-cooked potatoes, sweet potatoes, parsnips, things like that are also great carbohydrate sources. And then honey, we mentioned maple syrup are, are also good options,
Brian (1h 1m 24s):
I'll tell you honey. And you gotta get it from a good source. That's another thing cuz a lot of times, you know, just a normal run of the mill honey is is just processed just like anything else, right?
Jay (1h 1m 39s):
Yeah. Yeah. And they can, they can have irritants in there as well, especially the darker colored honeys and maple syrups. I would actually Lean toward the lighter colored ones.
Brian (1h 1m 47s):
I'll tell you what's what, what I like is just sort of a, it's almost just like think of as a dessert, but like Greek yogurt with with some honey in it, you know, raw, raw honey. Yeah, I like that.
Jay (1h 2m 1s):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I'll do like a good quality milk with honey or maple syrup and sometimes like a pitch of salt if it's cold or I'll do that warmed up at night sometimes with a bit of honey or, or
Brian (1h 2m 14s):
Maple syrup. Now Now I know with Dr. Ray Pete, they talk about the carrot salad. Are you a carrot salad guy or is that something that you try to include in your diet?
Jay (1h 2m 23s):
So I think it's helpful to have those types of fibers and so raw carrots and certain other like raw radishes are, are kind of similar. We can also get good fibers from whole fruits and cooked vegetables and things like that. So I think that if someone has a healthy Gut, those things can be helpful. And if someone doesn't have a healthy Gut, having something like the carrot salad where it's also mixed with things like olive oil and and vinegar which have antimicrobial effects can be very helpful. I've seen it have pretty big impacts on Gut health, on motility, on hormonal health. So I am a fan of that. I think a raw carrot can work as well, but the carrot salad is I think a step better. So yeah, I think it's something that can definitely fit in and be really helpful for a lot of people.
Brian (1h 3m 6s):
Okay. And then what else? Just, you know, fats, you're gonna get that obviously from the meat and then just cooking in obviously tallow butter if you want to use like probably you could do avocado oil, things like that. Coconut oil I'm assuming.
Jay (1h 3m 21s):
Yeah, yeah, all those and avocado and olive oil are kind of in the middle there. They've got some of the pollen saturated fats, they're nowhere near as bad as the seed oils, but I wouldn't want either of those to be a primary Fat source. But I think they're fine as as a Fat source. And yeah, I would really wanna Lean toward the, the, you know, as you said, tallow, coconut oil, butter, those kinds of things.
Brian (1h 3m 44s):
Okay. Anything else we're missing?
Jay (1h 3m 48s):
Well, I don't think so as far as food sources, but when talking about the composition, talking about how much carbs versus how much fats, that is something that I think certainly is a spectrum that will depend on the individual and where they're coming from. Yeah, if someone's coming from low carb, I would always want to titrate up slowly, you know, it's always something to consider and slowly tweak up the carbs as you tweak down the Fat as a, as a final kind of resting place. Normally for Fat intake I have most people within 20 to 40%, like within that range, which is a decent, you know, decently wide range. And that'll really vary based on things like, what it's really varying based on is Fat needs. And so your Fat needs are going to be higher if you're more active.
Jay (1h 4m 30s):
Cause you're gonna be Burning more Fat if you have more muscle mass, cuz you'll be Burning more Fat. Also, if you're leaner, you're probably going to have less Fat circulating than if you're particularly overweight. When you're overweight. There's a lot more flux through the Fat stores, a lot more Fat being released. So you might also have fewer needs or lower needs for Fat at that point as well. So if someone's less active, less muscle mass or less Lean, those would be times I might Lean toward the lower end of that range of the 20 to 40%, maybe it's somewhere in 20 to 30. And then if someone is on the other side there where they're more active and leaner and more muscle mass, I might Lean toward the higher end of the 30 to 40% range andt titrating there based on how someone feels, what their symptoms are, how long they can go between meals.
Jay (1h 5m 12s):
And I think it's worth pointing out that two low Fat has its own problems where in the same way that our body is sensing how much Glucose it has and releasing stress hormones, if there's too little, it'll do the same thing with Fat as well. It'll sense the amount of free Fatty acids in the blood and if there are too little, it will release the same stress hormones to release extra Fatty acids. That's cuz that Fat is just as necessary. It's a, it's a nutrient for a reason. We need it for hormone production, we need it for cellular repair is, it's a part of the cellular structure and we need it as a fuel as well. If we don't have any Fat and our whole body is using Glucose, it leaves less Glucose available for the places that really need it. Like our brain and Liver and kidneys and So, we run out of it quicker. Our blood sugar drops quicker so that there's problems with that too.
Jay (1h 5m 51s):
So that's why I don't like to go too low on the Fat side. And then you can use that ra you know, based on your range of Fat, you can then determine your range of carbohydrates. So if you're on the lower end of Fat, then carbohydrates could be, you know, 55% or so. If you think, you know, 25% Fat, 55% carbs then leaves 20% for protein versus if you're on the higher end for Fat, the carbs might be lower, like 40%.
Brian (1h 6m 18s):
Got it. So you, you almost start with titrating, the Fat proponent of the macronutrients and then base everything off that as opposed to, I think a lot of people, we look at the carb and start, you know, the carbon intake and start with that. So, but that's interesting. you know, it, it, it makes sense. I've always, I, well now I've been seeing, I've gone days where I do hire a little bit more carbs and then I'll do days where I, I bring the carbs down. I don't know, I'm just like, that's like in my head I'm used to doing that and seeing how I feel on, on both. And obviously ev you know, like, like we've said, everyone's a little bit different. You gotta do a little bit of self experimentation to see those, those like amounts.
Brian (1h 7m 0s):
But you know, the thing is, I think the grasp from this is just not, not to be afraid of carbohydrate sources, you know, are we carnivores? No. Right. We're, we're, we're more like, actually I was just seeing, I just saw a diagram that we're actually most like our stomach, our small intestine in and our proportions are compared to other primates are very similar to like spider monkeys.
Jay (1h 7m 28s):
Interesting. Yeah, I hadn't seen that, but I can, yeah, there's, looking at that comparative physiology I think is really enlightening and kind of goes back to that expensive tissue hypothesis and things like that, you know, comparing our guts to, to other animals.
Brian (1h 7m 40s):
Yeah. Yeah. I can, let me share it with you real quick before we jump off if you wanna see it. Sure. It's here. We're, and then people watching on YouTube can take a look, but this is from carnivore Aurelius who originally was a car eating mainly meat And now is added fruit and things like that. But Harry talks about the spider monkey and these five primates and then like our small intestine compared to theirs. So Argo is actually very similar large brain spider monkey, you know, which gets 75% of its energy from fruit. So pretty interesting.
Jay (1h 8m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting. Yeah, no, that was the first thing I was pulling up was what is the spider monkey diet and yeah, mostly fruit. So
Brian (1h 8m 26s):
Yeah. And, you know, so we're considered like omnivores would you say? Oh,
Jay (1h 8m 30s):
Absolutely,
Brian (1h 8m 31s):
Yes. Okay. Cause you'll get argument and pushback from the carnivore community from that.
Jay (1h 8m 37s):
Yeah, well, and, and look, we can look at digestive systems and comparative physiology, but also we can look at the actual physiological processes that happen when we eat carnivore. And I think those, I think it's really helpful to keep that lens of, of what is optimal for our physiology based on how we respond to different inputs. And the way that we respond to a low carb diet is the same way that we respond to starvation. That's an important connection to make because we know that starvation is not a health state. We know that when we're in starvation, that's a state where we have to be under a lot of stress. We have to be turning down our metabolic functions. There's all sorts of adapt adaptations that have to happen there.
Jay (1h 9m 19s):
And so, and if we're, if we're saying that like our optimal state has to be pretty far from starvation, right? And so if we're trying to argue that a low carb state that creates the same physiology of starvation is optimal, I think that that's, that is a hard thing to reconcile. And so I think that's important. And when we look into the details, what happens to the stress, what happens to cortisol when we drop carbs down, when we go from a normal carbohydrate containing diet to a low carb diet, the fact that that shoots up and that we have elevated stress hormones for a month or more at a time is I think very, very significant. That's a pretty intense stress if it's causing a more than a month of elevated stress hormones. And then when you look longer term and see the depression and thyroid activity, the reduced T four to T three conversion and all of that, I, I think as much as we wanna look at comparing ourselves to other species and comparing ourselves to our, our past and our ancestry, looking at what we have right now in terms of our physiology is really telling as far as what diet we are optimized for, so to speak.
Brian (1h 10m 21s):
Yeah, I mean, you know, what would you say if someone's been on carnivore for a year and they're like, oh I'm, I'm having great results, my stress hormones aren't elevated, you know, my markers seem in line. I mean, you know, everyone probably can handle it differently. Can handle, if you wanna say that stress for a certain amount of time long-term. Do we know? Probably not.
Jay (1h 10m 44s):
Well, so when you look long term, okay, so there's a couple things. One I would say is, as we were saying earlier, there are a lot of potential benefits to low carb. I think a lot of them can be mediated by endotoxin and there's good evidence that they are right. A reduction there can lead to you being in a way better state. I'm not trying to say that everything, like when you go low carb, everything is worse. You could be way better off than you were before, but that doesn't mean it's optimal. So that's one thing is, is endotoxin, the other is relief from poor Glucose oxidation. So if you are having trouble being a carb burn, if you're having trouble Burning those carbs, and this is something that's really common in, well it happens in every degenerative state, but let's say we take the brain and Alzheimer's, if you're having trouble Burning carbs and you provide ketones, you're gonna be way better off.
Jay (1h 11m 26s):
You didn't fix the problem, you didn't fix the capacity for Burning carbs, but you provided an alternative fuel that skirts around that pathway and and allows for substitution. That's gonna, it's a better brain function. Is that better? Yeah, of course. Does that mean that is the optimal way to fix our physiology and lead to optimal health? I would say no. So I think that is an important context. People can be doing way better on low carb than their prior diet unless even forgetting the fact that someone's coming from standard American diet, seed oils, donuts, the whole thing. Like let's even say someone's coming from a healthier diet that included carbohydrates, but they're having endotoxin issues and carb Burning issues and then they take those problems away or avoid those problems. Perfect.
Jay (1h 12m 6s):
I mean, if you take someone who has diabetes and you put 'em on a low carb diet, wow, their blood sugar's managed way better. You didn't fix their ability to metabolize the carbs and balance their blood sugar. You're just avoiding it. And yeah, that's gonna lead to some benefits during that period of time. Does that mean it's optimal? That is the, that is the second a different question. And that is a question where I would say, I don't think it's optimal and you might be feeling good for now, but I think a lot of people that that is a ticking clock and that will, like, that time will come up where all of a sudden your sleep's gonna get a bit worse and worse. The recovery in the gym's gonna get worse and worse energy's gonna get worse and worse. Reproductive activities gonna get worse and worse. And that's, you know, a lot of the people who I'm working with are people who have, who are at that point, right?
Jay (1h 12m 49s):
Their testosterone's tanked, their, or their cycle is, is off. They're not sleeping through the night, you know, things are, things are really deteriorating over time. And so that's, I think the inherent result of the avoidance of carbohydrates. And, and so I know you were saying, well look, yeah, there's a short term stress, right? And short term being relative, you could say medium term if you're saying months or six weeks of stress response. But then after that, oh there's, there's no clear stress response. And it's true, you're not gonna see the continuously elevated cortisol, but what you do see is that in response to exercise, you're going to have increased cortisol relative to someone using carbs where you're gonna see his response to any stress, you're gonna see increased stress hormones relative.
Jay (1h 13m 31s):
The other thing is you will see turn down thyroid activity over time, over time, less t3, lower reproductive hormones. And we can try to create some mental gymnastics to say those things are actually good. you know, we can try to like, like we can people do that. But I think that's a pretty hard argument to make. And anything that's going to clearly increase stress hormones for four to six weeks when you implement it, I think it takes a lot of gymnastic mental gymnastics to say that that's a beneficial thing. I mean, again, it's, I'm coming at it from a different perspective, so I, to me that sounds very foreign to think that something that's that stressful, you could be that anyone could say that that's optimal, but, you know, and then that comes back to a question of hormesis and whether stress is beneficial and all of that.
Jay (1h 14m 15s):
But yeah, tho those are tangents. In any case, I think that there are a lot of potential benefits to these types of diets, but that does not mean that they're optimal. And I will say, I would argue that they will come at a long-term cost.
Brian (1h 14m 29s):
And just to close it up, we talked about everything except as far as like meals per day. I know that's sort of probably an individual thing and I mean there's times, there's days where I, you know, at some point sometimes I'll have two meals. There's some days where I have three, I know there's some people who have four meals. What would you say, I mean that's probably an individual thing and how busy you are And, you know, things like that. But like do you try to get three to four meals in a day, would you say?
Jay (1h 14m 60s):
Yeah, so definitely individual. I would say that the most important thing here is if we want to consider it through the bioenergetic lens, meaning that we want do what ma what maximizes our metabolic rate, maximizes our ener energy production and minimizes stress. We don't wanna go too long without eating, cuz if we do, we're triggering the stress, we're relying on stress hormones, glucagon, adrenaline, cortisol instead of relying on food coming in. So there is, that is a limiting factor that I would say me is enough to say we don't wanna be eating one meal a day. I do think that that's gonna generally be problematic. And if somebody is feeling fine on that, then they might be over consuming protein or under consuming carbs or whatever else.
Jay (1h 15m 40s):
So part one I would say is there's a principle here, which is that if we wanna Maximize our metabolic rate, we need to eat frequently enough. Now what that frequently enough means can look different from person to person. In general, I would say we don't want to be eating every hour or two. Normally that means that we're either not eating enough with each meal or we're getting too little Fat in and So, we want to eat enough that we can normally get between three to four hours between a meal at least normally. I think that's where optimal lands, if somebody's going more like six hours between a meal, you know, so I'd say three to five is probably yeah, optimal, so to speak, depending on your metabolic state and all of that. If someone's going longer than five hours between meals, I think normally that's a sign that either a, the meals are too large or they're too high in protein, protein can be pretty suppressive of our appetite or they could be just in a lower metabolic state and So, we want to get that metabolic state up.
Jay (1h 16m 35s):
Those are like some general things that'd be looking to, if, if someone's comfortable going longer than five hours between meals because it's a sign that we're not using the fuel that's coming in that quickly and we wanna be using it quickly. So those are some yeah, principles I would keep in mind. But in general, I'd say three to five hours between meals or snacks is a good range.
Brian (1h 16m 54s):
Okay. Lots of good things here. Jay, lots of good stuff. I appreciate you coming on. Maybe one last tip I typically ask my guest, I probably asked you last time you came on, but if, if someone's looking to, you know, sort of get their body back to what it once was, you know, 5, 10, 15 years ago, I know we've hit a lot of tips today, but, and we've gone through sort of an Ideal way of potentially eating, but what, what tip would you give that individual trying to get their body back?
Jay (1h 17m 22s):
Yeah, so I, I like the question, I don't know how I answered it last time, but two things I wanna say. So one, just going back real quick, another factor is digestion. So if someone's going more than five hours between meals, it could also be a slow digestion that could be a, a factor there and something to
Brian (1h 17m 37s):
Consider really. Okay, yeah,
Jay (1h 17m 38s):
Yeah. Slow
Brian (1h 17m 38s):
Digestion meaning like, and also too about like going to the bathroom, like if you're not going, should probably be going at least once a day.
Jay (1h 17m 48s):
I would say at least. So when we're talking optimal, I would say at least two, if not three, is normally in the optimal range for most people. Yeah. So yes, low motility, low, low stomach acid, low bile flow, it can lead to food sitting and all those things can, and, and then you can also be feeding bacteria which can produce not only endotoxin but serotonin, which will slow things down as well. So yes, digestion could be another factor. If someone's going more than five hours between meals and they're not hungry, it's something else I would look to for sure. But I like the question of how do I get back to my body or how I was 15 years ago, or maybe when I was in my twenties or something like that. Because I think that is a really helpful perspective, right?
Jay (1h 18m 30s):
When we're in our twenties, let's say, or late teens and we can kind of eat whatever, and our metabolic rate's really high libido's, really high sleep's never an issue. You can be, you know, out at a really loud concert, And, you know, super hyped up and then you pass out right after. I mean, digestion's really good things don't bother you. That's the state. Those are the kinds of things we want to be getting to. And the, I would say the key difference there is where is our metabolic rate at? And over time, metabolic rate slows, mitochondria, respiration slows. We see this. If you take aged mitochondria from, you know, from someone who's above the age of let's say 60 or 70, you know, there's a dramatic reduction in, in energy production looking at, at the energy capacity at those ages, not to mention all the other things.
Jay (1h 19m 13s):
So what we're seeing is, or what I would say the solution is, is to get back to that young metabolism. And I think it's totally doable. It's just a matter of eating the things that we're, that are, that are designed for optimal function that allow for maximal energy production, avoiding the things that, that interfere with that, avoiding the polyunsaturated fats, lowering endotoxin, you know, having good, consistent sleep, consistent movement. I mean there's, it's a complex, right? It's never as simple as just eat this one thing, right? Or just take this one pill, anyone selling that I think is selling, but, but, but like
Brian (1h 19m 50s):
You said, having that perspective of trying to think of speeding things up as opposed to slowing things down, definitely
Jay (1h 19m 57s):
A
Brian (1h 19m 57s):
Good, good place to come from.
Jay (1h 19m 59s):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, I, I would agree. I think that that is what we want to put as our right as our goal.
Brian (1h 20m 6s):
Cool. And one more thing, methylene blue, any thoughts around that? Is that something you've ever experienced or tried?
Jay (1h 20m 13s):
Yeah, I like methylene blue personally, but also as a, as a supplement, it's got a, a number of interesting effects. For one, it's, it's antimicrobial, so it's a pretty good antifungal antiparasitic and that's how it's used medically is normally for those two reasons. But it also has some pretty interesting mitochondrial or energetic effects where it is able to work as an electron carrier and, and or acceptor and donor. And so if things are not working well in the electron transport chain, one of the main sites where we, or the main site where we're gonna produce our A tp, if things aren't working well there, something's blocked, let's say by endotoxin or ply saturated fats, whatever it is, methyl blue can kind of help us bypass those issues and allow us to continue to produce energy despite those things.
Jay (1h 21m 3s):
It also happens to lower ni nitric oxide, which is another inhibitor of mitochondrial respiration. And so it's got a number of benefits. I will say like any other supplement, there's a place for it and there's also a place where it can be problematic and it's never the first thing I would go to. We always wanna work at those foundations first. We're nearly always, you know, get diet on point, eat consistently, get enough carbs and fats in, make sure we're getting the nutrients we need, trying to work on our sleep hygiene, our movements. I think those are always the first places, but I do think there's a place for methane blue to help with either those microbial issues or for getting the metabolism going in certain instances.
Jay (1h 21m 43s):
And then it also, in particular has some benefits neurologically because of these stimulating effects on respiration where people use it as a nootropic because of those effects too. So, yeah, I, I like it. Again, it's not magic in that it is going to fix the problems, but it can be helpful along the way is I guess, the way I would put it.
Brian (1h 22m 4s):
Okay. Yeah, I was curious. So you use, you use it from time to time?
Jay (1h 22m 8s):
Yeah, I've gone through periods of time where I've used it more consistently and currently I think I would really only use it. I mentioned anti-parasitic antifungal, it's also antiviral. So currently I would really only use it for one of those purposes or if I was, you know, feeling a little like un under more stress or couple days of not feeling a hundred percent and then maybe just to kind of get a boost. But it's not something I go to particularly, I, I mean there's really no supplements I use on a day-to-day basis. Okay,
Brian (1h 22m 39s):
That's what I was gonna ask. Yeah.
Jay (1h 22m 40s):
Yeah. But it's in my toolbox is something I would use on an acute basis for, you know, certain instances.
Brian (1h 22m 47s):
Okay. All, right. Jay. Well, lots of great info. Thanks for coming on for a fourth time and yeah, I appreciate it. And anything else? Best place for people to find you?
Jay (1h 23m 2s):
Yeah, yeah, so I know I was saying, I think the best place is always to, the best place to start is always with foundations, basic diet, stress, sleep, lifestyle type things. And those things get us 80% of the way almost all the time. I mean, we always want to go to the supplements and, and the specific intervention or the, the Cold bath, whatever it is, the thing that's just gonna magically propel us forward. But in almost all cases, the foundations go so far that I think that we really want to take advantage of that. And sometimes doing the other things first can actually be detrimental and can cause issues. So I think it's really important to start with those foundations. And I have a resource to help people do that. It's called the, it's an energy balanced mini course.
Jay (1h 23m 44s):
And so it goes through seven days of emails describing how you can adjust things in terms of nutrition and lifestyle and stress and all of that to Maximize your energy, increase your metabolism, and resolve these sorts of symptoms. And so listeners can go to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy to sign up for that. And that would be my recommended starting place. And beyond that, I have a podcast called the Energy Balance Podcast, where we dig into details and mechanisms and research and all sorts of things like that. So I would recommend checking that out as well. And yeah. Yeah, I'll, you can find me there.
Brian (1h 24m 21s):
Yeah, I'll put Links in the show notes for that j felman wellness.com/energy for that mini course, and then for your, your podcast as well. So.
Jay (1h 24m 31s):
Awesome. Thank you.
Brian (1h 24m 32s):
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Yeah,
Jay (1h 24m 34s):
Thanks for having me, Brian. It's great conversation.
Brian (1h 24m 38s):
Thanks for listening to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other Podcasts out there, and you've chosen to listen to mine, and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned in this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.
