Brian (0s):
Coming up on the Get Lean, Eat Clean podcast.
Jay (4s):
I was intrigued. I, you know, when I first heard those things, I was not all of a sudden jumping into it, but I kind of, you know, dug in and slowly started to learn and, and come across these ideas that felt logical on the surface. And then also as I came to dive into the physiology, I, I found that they really jived in all areas. It was something that went across species. It was something that went across biology, something that affected not only just in terms of something like mitochondrial respiration, but also our electrolyte balance, our mineral balance, blood pressure and cholesterol, brain function, everything being directly intertwined here in making sense through this lens. And so when I, it got me interested enough to at least start to increase the carbs a bit more, more than the 50 to a hundred grams I was having on the workout days from White rice or something like that.
Jay (52s):
And
Brian (54s):
Hello and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Grn and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Bioenergetic health coach and researcher Jay Feldman. We discuss Jay's journey from low carb keto to high carb, along with advantages of carbs as a primary fuel source importance of CO2 for energy production, optimizing hormones, fructose role in health, and ways to improve gut health to start feeling great.
Brian (1m 36s):
Really enjoyed my interview with Jay. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right, welcome to the Get Lean, Eat Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gr and I've health coach and health researcher Jay Fellman. Thanks for coming on the show.
Jay (1m 52s):
Thanks for having me, Brian.
Brian (1m 54s):
Yeah, if you've listened to any of my, our pod, my podcast Jay was on with Dr. Dom Dino, and that was a nice friendly debate we did for about an hour and a half. And we are gonna do a part two coming up in a month or so. And I wanted to get Jay on, cuz I had Dom on by himself, so I figured this would be a good way just to, you know, let Jay sort of express his views around a lot of different topics that we touched on a little bit with, with Dom. So yeah, thanks for, thanks for coming on.
Jay (2m 23s):
Yeah, yeah, I'm excited.
Brian (2m 26s):
So let's start with, oh gosh, there's so many places we can start. You know, we touched with, with with Dom regarding, you know, fat burning versus glucose burning. And it's just this topic that gets ex talked about a lot, obviously over the last, I don't know, let's say five, 10 years keto, low carb carnivore, crave, have, has been sort of on the rise. And when I first heard you Jay on, on the Be Ad podcast with Brad, I was like, wow, this is like, almost back to, to like the old school of maybe consuming more and introducing more carbs, healthy carbs into your life to help with, you know, maximizing energy in the mitochondria.
Brian (3m 16s):
And so I just wanted to touch, we were gonna touch on a bunch of different topics, but what made you go down this road? I know you were low carb, you explained your story a little bit in the interview with Dom. How long ago was that that you started introducing carbs and then, and then sort of starting researching all, all about, you know, the bio bioenergetic viewpoint?
Jay (3m 37s):
Yeah, so it was around 10 years ago when I started on low carb in various iterations, maybe slightly more than 10 years. Okay. And so started with low carb and, and then kind of dialed that in more and more went into ketogenic and cyclical ketogenic diets and intermittent fasting and was, you know, trying very committed just as I am now, of course, to doing what I could to optimize my health. And that was always the focus and the goal and a major passion. And what I was experiencing wasn't lining up with what I was anticipating. I wasn't feeling and experiencing the vitality that I was, was expecting.
Jay (4m 20s):
And so, and that led, that presented itself as far as how I was responding to the workouts or how I felt during the workouts I was doing, how well I could focus libido, all sorts of, you know, small symptoms. And another huge one was a feeling of restriction, cravings for carbohydrates. You know, always looking at the clock for when I could get that meal in, you know, when I was doing my intermittent fasting or even after that first meal. Just always felt very honestly controlled by food, Interestingly, in a lot of ways that people describe when they're, when they're, when they describe like being addicted to sugar or something like that. And so that led to me being open and looking for some alternative views.
Jay (5m 4s):
And I came across the bioenergetic lens, some suggestion that's a pathway. How
Brian (5m 11s):
Did you come across do, were you introduced, I know like Ray Pete, is he like the, the, the gentleman who likes sort of started researching that?
Jay (5m 19s):
So Dr. Ray Pete has been researching health for a long time. I mean, he's 84, I wanna say 84 years old and has been putting out information, you know, his newsletter for maybe 40 plus years and has been talking about the issues with poly saturated fats for that long as well. One of probably the earliest people discussing that maybe even longer than 40 years, that he's been talking about the problems with poly saturated fats. And he has his own research has built upon the research of many other people who have, so, so he didn't coin the idea of, of the bioenergetic view of health. I wanna say it might have been Albert St. Georgie who did that. Okay. But anyway, so I come across a handful of videos over the years, kind of suggesting that there were so, so Danny Roddy is another, he is a major or person in the biogenic view who also is a fan of Ray Pete's work and has a lot of his own work and books and things.
Jay (6m 17s):
And he, I came across a video tour of, of his, and I think that was part of what had start off that started off that journey. And he was talking about things that I had never even considered when it came to a diet. He was, you know, there was, there was this idea that I remember I was, he had a video out talking about part of the issues with using fats for fuel and he talked about how there's a lack of car dioxide production and he talked about all these things going on inside in terms of mitochondrial respiration. And there were things that I had never even considered, you know, when you're listening to these things or, or at least for a lot of people I know was this way for myself, when you're listening to these things in terms of low car, it's painted as like the obvious choice.
Jay (6m 59s):
Of course I get that. And, and you know, you try to, to create a, a picture where it's simplified and so you have all these narratives that sugar increases insulin, which causes diabetes, sugar's inherently toxic and poisonous. And we've created this whole, this whole narrative, we've created a villain in, in sugar, in carbohydrates and put it in terms of evolution, you know, of course we wouldn't have had sugar available and we would've been going through periods of fasting and this is kind of the natural way that things were, which I think there's a lot of assumptions built into there, but there it was, so I guess in some ways service level, but so just associative where it's like carbo carbohydrates equal insulin resistance and diabetes, carbohydrates, equal neurodegenerative conditions, just very, very much in that way.
Jay (7m 44s):
And I had never dug in deeper than that. And so this was the first kind of brush with, with some real in depth physiology as far as the underpinnings of, of different diets and, and whether we should be relying on fats or carbs as our primary fuels or how those fit in together. And so I was intrigued. I, you know, when I first heard those things, I was not all of a sudden jumping into it, but I kind of, you know, dug in and slowly started to learn and, and come across these ideas that felt logical on the surface. And then also as I came to dive into the physiology, I found that they really jived in all areas. It was something that went across species, it was something that went across biology, something that affected not only just in terms of something like mitochondrial respiration, but also our electrolyte balance, our mineral balance, blood pressure and cholesterol, brain function, e everything being directly intertwined here in making sense through this lens.
Jay (8m 40s):
And so when I, it got me interested enough to at least start to increase the carbs a bit more, more than the 50 to a hundred grams I was having on the workout days from white rice or something like that. And so when I first did it, I was still, I had a lot of fear of fructose. I know this is something we'll probably talk about today is fructose. And so I still was not open to that idea, but I was at least open to the idea of increasing starches, increasing glucose through white rice and plantains and things like that. And so that's what I did and that that was kind of the starting place and eventually kind of grew from there. And I did end up introducing fructose containing foods like fruits and dried fruits and juices, which actually ended up feeling way better than when I was relying solely on the starches for my carbohydrate sources and led to a lot of benefits when I shifted away from so being so heavy on the starches.
Jay (9m 30s):
But yeah, I completely changed the way I viewed health and also the way that I felt. It was the first time where in my whole life, because this, even prior to low carb, I was still trying to be very healthy and watching, you know, trying to keep the calories down and trying to, you know, eat, at that point it was whole grains and nuts and seeds, although that continued through paleo and everything. But it was the first time where I actually felt freedom from the food I was eating where I didn't feel like I was constantly weighed down by restriction and cravings. It was also the first time where I really was able to identify clear differences throughout the day in terms of how I felt and how that related to the foods that I was eating. And yeah, it was something that I could really feel and actually tell how different my physiology was functioning and how that led to differences and how well I was sleeping or my skin health or libido or focus energy at the gym and, and responses to energy or responses to workouts, being able to build muscle way easier.
Jay (10m 24s):
You know, I think it would've been a, I spent so many years working out really hard and probably could have had some much quicker results from that at in those times. But anyway, that was, that was kinda what led me through down this path.
Brian (10m 41s):
Yeah, I was just curious because you are right in the sense that the narrative of becoming a fat burner, I mean, you hear that and, and I'm victim, no victim and I've, I've helped people, I've coached people getting to that point or helping people, you know, maybe titrate their carbs down and carbs have been sort of the villain and insulin has been the villain and you know, we have all these, now we have continuous glucose monitors and things like that and you know, Dr. Jason Fung has done a lot in this area. I've had him on the podcast and you know, with people who are diabetic and I'm sure you have opinions about what is the true cause, what's your, what you think is the true cause of diabetes, I guess what, what would you say to someone that's like, oh, you know, you know, I went to start a fasting and, and got these unbelievable results and my, you know, all my blood levels got back to normal and you know, my diabetes went away.
Brian (11m 34s):
Type two, what are your thoughts around that and what, what, what are you, what is your reasoning behind perhaps the cause of diabetes?
Jay (11m 47s):
So there are a handful of things that go on when we switch to a lower carb or ketogenic or fasting type protocol. And some of them are really great. So for one is we end up removing a lot of harmful foods and that alone I think is responsible for a lot of benefits. I think the foods within the standard American diet are causing a ton of problems, which we see, right? That's very clearly evident. And so we obviously are removing a ton of those, of those foods when we do that. But I don't think that's the only thing. I think there are a couple other factors that are particularly relevant when it comes to shifting toward this type of approach. And so one is, is the gut. So gut health, I think we have an epidemic of gut health disorders and issues and that's partially because our gut is just representative of what's going on in our physiology.
Jay (12m 33s):
If we have diabetes or obesity, if we have a neurodegenerative state, if we have an autoimmune state, there's going to be things going on the vast majority of the time in the gut that are not ideal. And when we feed an overgrowth of bacteria or fungus or all sorts of, of potential issues going on in the gut with fibrous carbohydrates, whether it's raw vegetables or whole grains or you know, and it, most of the carbohydrates that the standard American diet includes, that's going to cause a lot of problems. And so removing those things, removing anything that's going to be reaching the, the farther down parts to the large intestine is going to lead to a lot of relief. And so I think that's a huge component and has been shown to be a huge component when it comes to the benefits of ketogenic diets and low carb diets and fasting where there's a, a compound called endotoxin, which is also called lippo polysaccharide, it's a product of certain types of bacteria and this, it's an extremely toxic bacterial product and it reeks havoc in terms of our ability to produce energy in, in the mitochondria and to the point that it causes death in people who are septic and people who have these systemic infections and lower grade, not death levels, but lower grade endotoxemia, which just just means lower grade levels of endotoxin are found in all of these different states like obesity and diabetes and, and on from there.
Jay (13m 56s):
And so
Brian (13m 57s):
When we, Is there a way, is there a way to me, like I know like with gut health, like you can do like poop samples or things like that? Like is there a way to measure endotoxin or is just, There are, Okay. There
Jay (14m 8s):
Are a few markers that are used in the research, but they aren't commercially available. Okay. And it's non measuring the endotoxin because the endotoxin itself in the blood is going to vary a lot if you just had a meal, if, if you're at rest, and maybe if there's enough data gathered on that at some point we can use that as a marker. But instead what they tend to use are markers of response to endotoxin. So endotoxin will lead to the activity of all these different inflammatory pathways, some of which are unique to it. And so you can use those as indicators of if there's endotoxin, but it can also be caused by other inflammatory drivers. So they're not so unique or specific and they, again, they don't tend to be available commercially for us to, to test unfortunately.
Jay (14m 50s):
But ideally in the future. But
Brian (14m 54s):
Yeah, sorry, interrupt you. Yeah, no, no,
Jay (14m 56s):
It's, it's fine. And, and so that's a huge component that we're relieved of and just as an example to su to show, to demonstrate how much of an impact this has, there are studies looking at ketogenic diet in mice that have epileptic seizures and they're able to do a fecal microbial transplant where they basically transplant the microbiome from those on a ketogenic diet to those that are not on a ketogenic diet. And it has the same seizure protecting effects without putting those normal rats on a rats or my, I don't remember on a ketogenic diet. And that's just an individual example that just shows the power of the gut in and how much it's benefited by these low carb diets.
Jay (15m 35s):
But the point we'll get to is we can have those same benefits and relieve our gut health issues without removing all carbohydrates. And I would prefer to go that route cause I think there's a cost to just throwing out all the carbs. So that's one main area of benefit. The other is, especially if you look at type two diabetes or an insulin resistant state metabolic syndrome, which is underpinning a lot of different disease processes, those are states where we're not effectively using the glucose that's coming in well enough and we're not producing energy from it very well. And so we end up with one thing that happens is that leads to a lot of fat production because we're not actually converting the food to energy. It leads to a handful of other stress processes as well.
Jay (16m 17s):
But in that state, if we are not having the energy available because we can't burn, so to speak, the carbohydrates well for energy and then we take out the carbs and just rely on fat and ketones, we're gonna be much better off. We don't have to keep trying to force it through these kind of broken pathways that we can fix. And so that's the other point is we have this relief from poor glucose oxidation. Of course if we look at someone who has type two diabetes, that's a super clear feature there and maybe we'll talk about that nex as far as what's causing that. But so when we shift away from the carbs, we avoid that problem, we don't actually fix the problem. And so avoiding it can lead to a ton of benefits. We're gonna be way better off, of course we're gonna see better blood markers and potentially weight loss, all sorts of things between the gut and relieving the poor car metabolism.
Jay (17m 1s):
But I think that we can accomplish both of those things without, without just throwing out the carbs and in a process in a way that I think will work much better long term.
Brian (17m 11s):
Okay. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I mean if you think about when people throw, just say carbs, I mean it's such a broad way of saying it. There's so many different types and most of it people are having are, you know, processed and grains and corn and soy. What would you say let's, let's dive into some of the advantages of why carbs are such a good fuel source for the body as opposed to fat. Because I think the narrative has always been going towards, you know, fat, using fat for fuel and getting insulin levels down. What, let's go, let's say top three reasons why carbs are a better fuel source than fats.
Jay (17m 53s):
So I would probably phrase it as carbs are an extremely important fuel source and, but I wouldn't say they're universally better just in that there are certain situations where car, where fats are a great fuel source. And so the kind of context I would put it in is that when we need to produce a lot of atp, a lot of energy very efficiently, we need carbohydrates. Those are gonna be our, our ideal option. We can also use ketones, but we can't, Fat is not going to be the option there. And just as an example, this is why our brains don't use fats as a fuel. They, our brains are very sensitive to of stress. They need, they very high energy demands, you know, as much as 20 to 25% of our total energy demands are used by our brain, which is, you know, just a couple of pounds, you know, just a tiny percentage of our total body weight.
Jay (18m 39s):
So super high energy demands and our brains can't use those fats for fuel and that's because of of this reason. And so, but on the other hand there are situations where we don't need super high amounts of ATP produced in a super, in a super efficient way. And so that would be for example, our muscles at rest. So at rest our muscular energetic needs are gonna be rather low and I think that's a perfect situation where we want to use some fats there. And this is part of why I don't suggest a super low fat diet either. I think that comes with, with its own issues. And instead I would say that we wanna have a combination of both that's going to allow for the carbohydrates for the areas that need those super high efficiency fuels like our brain and liver, kidneys and also our muscles when they're super active and needing to, you know, be very explosive.
Jay (19m 30s):
And then we also wanna have some fat available so we can a spare those carbs for those other areas because if we just have carbs and our muscles take up all those carbs, then we're gonna be running out of carbohydrates really quick and there's not gonna be much left for our brain. So that's why I'd recommend having some fats as well. And those having their place in terms of something like the muscles at rest, which is a big sink of, of fuel and energy disposal. So that's kind of the perspective that I think of it through. And, but of course there are details here as far as why exactly this is happening and the places that I think are best to look at those are what's going on in terms of the mitochondria, what's going on in terms of maybe the blood sugar and the hormones, which I think are all directed related.
Brian (20m 14s):
Let's touch on co2. I think this is an interesting, cuz you, you, you want yourselves to produce more CO2 to increase oxygen use and energy production, right?
Jay (20m 26s):
Yeah. So CO2 is normally thought of as a waste product of metabolism, of mitochondrial respiration and, but in reality it's a super important factor for allowing ourselves to take up oxygen. So oxygen is carried on a protein called hemoglobin. And there's a couple of situations that allow for the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. And so at the cells, if we don't have enough carbon dioxide there, the hemoglobin can't give the cell to oxygen, it won't let go of the oxygen unless it will exchange it for carbon dioxide. This is called the bore effect. I'm kind of simplifying it, but
Brian (21m 2s):
This is Yeah, that's, that's fine. We can, I, you know, I I and I give you a lot of credit cuz if you, if you look at all your re you know, the research you've done, I mean, it, you really gotta dig into this stuff. But anyways, we can keep it. So, but go ahead. Yeah,
Jay (21m 16s):
Yeah. So, so if our tissues are not producing the enough carbon dioxide, they can't take up the oxygen from hemoglobin. And so that's a, a huge driver of oxygenation and it's a very sensitive system. So small changes in, in local car dioxide availability is going to affect whether those cells are effectively getting the oxygen. And that's a, the oxygen is needed for us to produce energy for, for the mitochondria to function. And so when we aren't producing enough co2, it correlate coincides with the state where we're not using a lot of oxygen, we're not respiring a lot in the cells, we're not producing a lot of energy. And when we look at fat versus carbohydrate metabolism, it's one very key clear difference is that carbohydrate metabolism, if you're looking at the same rate of respiration, will produce 50% more co2, 50% more carbon dioxide, which is of course a large amount, large percentage.
Jay (22m 7s):
The other thing to consider is that the rates normally are different too, and carbohydrate and metabolism normally occurs at a much faster rate, so it'd be even higher than 50%. So that's one aspect of a difference between the res, like the mitochondrial oxidation of, of carbs and fats.
Brian (22m 21s):
Okay. So carb oxidation consumes 50% less water and generates 50% more carbo dioxide than the oxidation of fat,
Jay (22m 30s):
Right?
Brian (22m 30s):
Correct. Okay. And, and this, this is obviously hugely important for everybody, but obviously athletes trying to create energy, right?
Jay (22m 42s):
Definitely. Yeah. This, again, this isn't something that's gonna be coming into play at a muscle at rest doesn't need huge amounts of oxygen. But when you're, and part of it gets a little comp complex when we're talking about an intense exercise because at that point we have a lot of stress systems activating that allow for all these backup pathways. We've got our adrenaline going, which is gonna force oxidation. Another factor is the vasodilation and the circulation. And so carbon dioxide is the primary vasodilator as well that keeps the, the blood vessels open to allow for good circulation of blood flow. But if we're in a stress state where we need the muscles to work and we are, are not producing as much carbon dioxide, we'll get nitric oxide to be produced as that backup, which helps with the vasodilation.
Jay (23m 26s):
So there's all sorts of backup pathways that help us in a stress state, but those are just ideally reserved for, for important situations when we need some extra energy.
Brian (23m 35s):
Okay. Got it. And then let's touch on hormone optimization, because you're seeing it somewhat a little bit in the keto space where, you know, over time, you know, over maybe a longer period of time you're seeing perhaps a downregulation of thyroid. What are some of the things that come into play when it comes to hormone optimization and and implementing some type of car or glucose source?
Jay (24m 6s):
Yeah, when we're looking at hormones, the hormones are just signals, just messengers that are trying to dictate the underlying state of our body. If we need more sodium, if we need more glucose, if we need more fat, I mean, all sorts of different things are going on in different areas and hormones are those signals. And so it can be really helpful to look at what's happening with hormones as a reflection of the kind of state that our bodies are in. So when we're utilizing carbohydrates for fuel, another difference is, you know, I was talking about the efficiency of ATP production and this comes down to the NAD 10 80 H ratios. It comes down to the production of reactive oxygen species, handful of different factors that are happening there.
Jay (24m 47s):
And the we'll see shifts in hormones when we're, when we don't have the carbohydrates available. And these shifts and hormones are really important because they allow us to kick in these backup pathways to provide, for example, ketones and also to provide enough fat release. And all of these are, again, signals of what's going on in our environment. So if we are in an environment, if we take the extreme of starvation, if we take the extreme or there's no fuel coming in, and we, of course that means no carbohydrates coming in either. We have to rely on our stored fuel, we have to rely on fats, and then we also will tend to kick in keto production. And the reason for that is because the main way that we're going to produce glucose, we can get a little bit from the glycerol backbone of, of triglycerides, but most of it will have to come from amino acids, from protein.
Jay (25m 35s):
And we don't wanna break down our muscle to produce all this glucose. That's obviously a major cost. That wouldn't be a great thing. We would lose our muscle mass really quickly. So instead we make up for some of our glucose needs with ketones. All of these processes, all of these things that have gone on, you know, and have been built into our physiology to help us survive in stressful states, to help us survive in famines and starvations to help us survive when there's not carbohydrates available or not fats available. All sorts of those things have all, again, they've been baked into our physiology and then get, get signaled by hormones. So some of the main hormones that will do this will be what are categorized as the stress hormones, which normally will involve glucagon, adrenaline or epinephrine and cortisol.
Jay (26m 21s):
And normally when we say stress, somebody's thinking psychological stress, right? I'm stressed out, everybody knows cortisol, cortisol's the stress hormone. But being psychologically, stress is not the only thing that causes these hormones to be produced. Anytime we're under physiological stress, where we're at a deficit of how much energy we have available, it'll kick in these, these hormones. So that means if we're gonna go for, for a run, you know, and we're starting to run and our energy's running low, it'll kick on these hormones, if we go for a long time without eating, it'll kick on these hormones. Another factor is our blood sugar. And so if our blood sugar starts to drop too low, it'll kick on these hormones and that's our blood sugar is where our glucose availability is, is going to be evaluated.
Jay (27m 2s):
If there's low blood sugar, that means our brain doesn't have enough fuel, it means that other areas of our bodies don't have the, the glucose available. This can be disastrous. So we have these stress hormones that kick up, that increase our, our blood sugar. And that's a, again, a really great thing to have biologically necessary, helps us survive. But in the process it also signals what's going on in our environment. And so if we're in a really stressful environment and our bodies are trying to survive as long as possible, they want to conserve as much energy as they can for this survival, for this stress. So if we're doing lots of running, we're signaling to our bodies that we're going to be doing a lot of running, let's save our energy.
Jay (27m 43s):
It's not wasted on other processes right now because we've got a lot of running to do. The same thing would happen is if we're not eating for a while, if we're fasting for a long time, all these things are gonna basically turn down what's called a basal metabolic rate. Although this, there's some issues with measuring it, but turns down our metabolic rate turns out, turns down how much energy we're using in case basically because we're signaling to our bodies that there's consistent stress that we need to save that energy for. And the way that our bodies do this, the way that our bodies signal this is through these hormones. So as we have elevated levels of these stress hormones over time, this will create cascading effects that allow for us to turn down our metabolism. One of those is happening through thyroid hormones.
Jay (28m 25s):
So the stress hormones, and it, it varies a little bit between each one, but will turn down the production of our thyroid hormones. They'll also turn down the conversion of the inactive to the active thyroid hormone. And the thyroid is our main regulator of our metabolism. And it has effects everywhere has effects in terms of our skin has effects in terms of our gut and all different areas of our gut has effects in terms of our reproductive hormone production. It, there's a, in order to prove any steroid hormone, we have to bring cholesterol into the mitochondria. That happens via a protein called the star protein. And thyroid's very important for activating that protein, increasing that protein activity. So, and so these stress hormones, if we're, if we're under a state where we're chronically activating them, and we'll signal to turn down our thyroid activity through these different means, turn down our reproductive activity, turn down our digestive activity, all these things to basically turn us onto kind of like a low battery mode to conserve our energy so that we have it to deal with the future stress.
Jay (29m 20s):
And so that's the situation that would argue that we create, when we're doing long-term ketogenic diets, long term fasting, or especially nowadays in the, in the kind of biohacking space, when we're layering all these different stresses on each other, we're doing those things. And then we're also doing these intense exercise sessions. We're also doing cold, you know, thermogenesis, we're also adding saunas.
Brian (29m 43s):
Don't be, don't be knocking on cold. That'll be a whole nother, I do love cold plunging. But anyways,
Jay (29m 50s):
And I'm not saying, but these are inherently problematic, right? I mean, I think exercise is great, right? But we want to be aware of what we're signaling, how we're doing it. And, and
Brian (29m 60s):
It's the, and I and, and you know, I, and I and I always talk about they're all stressors, right? So like if you're stacking 'em, you know, if you're doing calorie restriction and you're stacking all these other things on top of each other, it can add up over time. And like you were mentioning, it can take a toll on thyroid and hypothyroidism is, is something that I thinks people gets sort of pushed on the rug, but probably a lot of people have it, they don't realize they have it.
Jay (30m 24s):
Yeah. Even, I mean, the diagnosis of hypothyroidism is, is super high. And even then, I think so much of it is, is kind of undiagnosed the ranges of, of hormones that are looked at, which first off, normally only TSH is looked at and the ranges forward are way off, I would say, compared to what's optimal and what the research suggest is
Brian (30m 42s):
Optimal. What, what would, you know, off the top of your head, like as far as like free T3 and free T4 and tsh, do you know, what do you have? Like what would be optimal? I'm just curious.
Jay (30m 53s):
So for tsh, I would say that we wanna see it under two and ideally we're closer to around one or maybe a little bit under one. Okay. But under two is, is really the kind of limit I would have. And that doesn't mean if we're at 2.2 or 2.5 that we have severe hypothyroidism and we need to go take medication or anything like that. But it does suggest an underactive thyroid. But we have to be careful because I was saying before how the stress hormones turn down our thyroid activity. One of the ways they do that, especially cortisol, is by turning down tsh. So you can have a TSH of zero or one or something very low, but it's actually being turned down by cortisol. So that's part of the reason why we can't just look at tsh, but we do wanna look at a handful of markers.
Jay (31m 35s):
So TSH would be an important one. We also wanna look at cholesterol. A lot of times high total cholesterol, high LDL can be related to hypothyroidism. And that relationship was known since the very early 19 hundreds. I wanna say it was like 1906 or something. I have a paper describing that. And they used to use thyroid, like thyroid as a way to lower cholesterol. It's not the only cause of course there's, you know, these are intricate situations, but high cholesterol can be another sign of hypothyroidism. And then yes, looking at T3 and T4 can be helpful. Looking at reverse T3 can be helpful as well. So normally for free t3, I would say the ideal range is at least 3.0 or up, and I wanna say that's picograms per,
Brian (32m 16s):
Yeah, PG mls Per ml,
Jay (32m 19s):
Yeah. Per milliliter. Yeah. I don't remember off the top of my head. I don't remember the free T4 range.
Brian (32m 23s):
Okay. I'm thinking like, I'm looking right now 1.4 to 1.8 free T4 is what I see for functional, but sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah,
Jay (32m 33s):
Yeah.
Brian (32m 35s):
But I also think it's important for people to get, like, get these measured. I think sometimes they get overlooked because like you mentioned thyroid, gosh, I mean they re they regulate all like so many bodily functions, respiration, heart rate, muscle strength, body temperature, menstrual cycles, and women, you know, conversion of cholesterol.
Jay (32m 58s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's involved in everything. I mean, it's a huge factor. It's very highly correlated with placebo, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth because low thyroid activity will slower motility. So our, the food's moving very slow through our intestines and the bacteria grow higher and higher. It also affects our bio release and our stomach acid production. But yeah, it's, it's involved nearly every single disease process and both, and every aspect of health too. So it's a huge one. And another important factor to look at is, is reverse T3 when we're talking about blood labs. And that's because if we are inhibiting the conversion from the inactive T4 to the active t3, it will instead be converted to reverse t3. So reverse T3 is elevated, that's a sign of, of low conversion or conversion issue, which is also a situation of, of hypothyroidism where you're not getting enough of the active hormone.
Jay (33m 46s):
And, and normally for that one, anything above 17. So if you're looking at like 18 or higher, I would start to look at that as, as elevated as, as above where we'd want it.
Brian (33m 56s):
Okay. And like you mentioned, high cholesterol, I mean with obviously the keto carnivore movement becoming such a craze, I think cholesterol, having high cholesterol was never really talked about being associated with low thyroid function and perhaps high levels of cortisol, right?
Jay (34m 14s):
Yeah, not, yeah, not recently for sure. Yeah. Not in the, in that low carb space. And I think that's, yeah, and yeah, I know for my, for myself, I saw my cholesterol come down a hundred points when I brought carbs back in and shifted outta keto and saw the carbs come up. And again, I'm not one of those people who's saying that, you know, high cholesterol causes heart disease or anything that, that's simple. I'm not, But instead I am looking at it as a marker of what's going on metabolically. And, and I think it's very parallel I that in the low carb space, we've recognized that high cholesterol might be a sign to something going on, but it's also an incredibly important healing factor. It's super important for immune function and super protective.
Jay (34m 56s):
It's also precursor for hormones. I mean, it's a super, super essential important compounds and so, or molecule. And, and so we've recognized that high cholesterol and heart disease, we're looking at association, we're not looking at causation there. We don't blame the firemen for a fire. But then we've done that same thing when it comes to insulin resistance and diabetes. These are states where you see high glucose and high insulin. And I would say that this is, those are responses to an underlying problem. They're actually protective responses that we want to happen, right? Our bodies are, are super intelligent. They're, they're not adapting in a, in a stupid way that we need to just go in and fix because we know better. There's a, a very important reason why we've done the, why our bodies do that.
Jay (35m 36s):
And we don't, don't wanna blame the glucose in insulin. We don't wanna assume that just because glucose and insulin are high in those early stages of diabetes. I mean, later on insulin, you know, you lose your capacity to produce insulin. But just because that's the case doesn't mean that those are causing that state.
Brian (35m 51s):
Gotcha. Yeah. And you know, so, so there could be, there could be some, gosh, some sort of correlation between low carb diets, decreasing T3 levels, increasing free T4 and reverse T3 levels and yeah. Okay. Free
Jay (36m 15s):
T4 is, I I would say free T4 is normally not high, but normally low free T3 and high reverse t reverse t3. Yeah. And normally I will say people coming from low carb, I cts h very low, but it tends to be suppressed, tends to be suppressed by the stress hormones. You tend to see high morning cortisol, you tend to see high morning glucose.
Brian (36m 33s):
Okay, let's talk a little bit about fructose. It's our favorite topic here. I had Dr. William, well, gosh, I've had Dr. William Davis who was more, that's grain brain. He, he wrote the book Grain Brain. I've had Richard Johnson. And you know, I think that, and I always thought, you know, and you even hear like Dr. Jason Fang individuals talk about fructose is sort of the, the, the, the devil, the demon in the sense that you stored in the liver and you might not get like an in a glucose response from it, right?
Brian (37m 14s):
Or you know, insulin response from, from fructose. But you always hear, yet you shouldn't be drinking tons and tons of, you know, orange juice or things like that. You, you're better off maybe eating it. So let's talk about fructose role in the body and how it can actually potentially be beneficial.
Jay (37m 35s):
Yeah. So it has been certainly painted as, as even more a villain than just even sugar or carbs as a whole. And part of that comes down to, so, so there's a couple things that happen. For one, of course, fructose can go through a pathway called Denovo lipogenesis and lead to the production of fat Fructose also can lead to a situation where you've increased your acid, which I know is, is Dr. Rick Johnson's concerns or concern. But just because it can do those things doesn't mean it does in normal physiological context. And there's, you know, I've spent, you know, we were talking about this before, I've got a couple of podcast episodes actually going through the research and explaining that these things don't actually happen in normal human context and normal consumption of even considerable amounts of, of fructose.
Jay (38m 28s):
But they will happen when you inject it in massive amounts or when you give it to rats. And there's all sorts of reasons for this in terms of the issues or differences between human livers and rat livers. And our capacity for, for carbohydrate and carbohydrate storage and utilization. There's, the gut is a huge mediaing factor as well where when you give fructose alone, it doesn't get absorbed very well. It actually needs glucose with it to be absorbed very well. And this is something that happens in any source of fructose that we would get in our environment. It's always paired with glucose. The vast majority of fruit of fruits are about 50 50 between glucose and fructose. And that include, you know, a lot of 'em have sucrose as well, which is also 50 50 glucose fructose.
Jay (39m 8s):
And there's some variation in there in that range. But they always come with good amount of glucose in there to help with their absorption and for a handful of other reasons. And so, Sure.
Brian (39m 17s):
I was just, I was just gonna say, you know, you hear a lot that, like for hibernation purposes, a lot of animals just stocked up on like pounds and pounds of, of fruit to, to put on fat for the, for the winter so they can hibernate. What are your thoughts around that? And now you're starting to see a little bit in the carnivore space with, you know, Dr. Saladino and, and car never Arius who's, you know, sort of just writes blogs and stuff. I know you've written on his blog before, but, you know, adding in fruit to like a meat-based diet, and this is something that we talked about off offline, but I've been adding in fruit to my diet just to see how I perform in the gym and, you know, see how my blood levels are and I'm sort of doing a self experimentation myself.
Brian (40m 0s):
So I'm, I'm just curious. That's why I was wanted to bring up fructose in its role.
Jay (40m 5s):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think there's some recognition that, that in, in normal context, it shouldn't be a problem. And, and in the context of giving pure fructose, it's not gonna be digested. You lead to this huge endotoxin production. These are things that are parsed out in the research where then they, if they do the same thing, but they give an antibiotic, so there's no endotoxin production, there's no issue, there's no to novo lipogenesis. So, so there's, there's a lot of reasons I think when we dig through the research that we don't need to be uniquely concerned about fructose. But you're, you're right. And that what it does do is it does go directly to the liver and it doesn't create as much of an insulin spike. And then what the liver does is it converts that fructose to, well, it does a few things with it.
Jay (40m 47s):
So one, it can use it to produce energy for, to fill whatever energy needs it has, it can convert it to glycogen to store to then release later, or it can convert it directly to glucose or to lactate and release both of those out as fuels that the brain can use and muscles and whatnot. Or it can store it as fat. But again, that's something that's normally happening in about 1% of the fructose coming in in a normal diet. And even then you always have flux through the fat stores. You end up storing fat that's taken in as well. And you know, there's, that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna be increasing the fat stores. So it can actually have a very protective effect because it serves that role as, as a fuel. And so it's been, there's a handful of things that are really interesting.
Jay (41m 29s):
For one, it increases alcohol clearance and the liver. It also has been shown to protect against various like hepatotoxic, so like liver toxic agents and both of these being a product of
Brian (41m 42s):
What about mineral retention? Sorry to interrupt you cuz I think that can be an issue and a lot of people are, you know, are, especially on low carb, are not getting enough minerals and they, they're sweating 'em out. Fructose can actually enhance mineral attention is it's true.
Jay (41m 57s):
Yeah, yeah. And so and so carbohydrates as a whole can. Yeah. And then also fructose uniquely. Yeah, it does help increase mineral attention.
Brian (42m 6s):
Sorry to interrupt you there, I just, I just was thinking that I, I was just looking at article by carnivore Relius and he was talking about how sugar is anti-stress. What, what does he mean? Yeah, I'm curious.
Jay (42m 20s):
Yeah. And so that's when I was talking earlier about really feeling differences in, in how I, how I've responded to food. And this was this idea that carbohydrates turn off our stress response was something that was so far in left field for me or outta left field. It was just a crazy idea. And was life changing? Absolutely life changing. So we were talking earlier about how these stress hormones are largely dependent or regulated based upon blood sugar. And so any time blood sugar and I, I should really say an energy deficit. So anytime there's lack of fuel leading to a lack of energy or using too much energy, it'll lead to the release of these stress hormones. Anytime our blood triggers dipping, it'll lead to the release of these stress hormones.
Jay (43m 1s):
And so the most powerful way to turn off these stress hormones, normally what we're told to do is do some deep breathing, take some magnesium, whatever it is. Not to say those things aren't helpful, but in terms of the actual physiology, the best way to turn off those stress hormones is providing carbohydrates, especially quick digesting ones that'll, that'll get to the, the blood readily and turn down immediately the glucagon adrenaline and cortisol. And so glucose and fructose are really, really effective at doing that. And that was, it's something that, you know, people talk about feeling hangry a lot of times that's caused by these sort of stress hormone responses due to low blood sugar, due to low fuel, due to low energy. And yeah, it, it's, it's amazing how much that can shift your mood.
Jay (43m 44s):
Of course people know how they feel when they're feeling hangry, but yeah, it could shift your mood, your energy, all of that.
Brian (43m 51s):
And can fructose also help restore proper glucose metabolism?
2 (43m 57s):
So there's
Jay (43m 59s):
Yes, it, it actually can a help with the blood sugar response. So as you were saying earlier, because it doesn't cause a release of insulin and instead goes to the liver and then gets repackaged and sent out in smaller amounts over time you have a more steady blood sugar response and so you get less of the dipping crash, which can be really helpful for, for that. But also you do see in, in studies where they look at just glucose versus glucose with fructose that you get better utilization of the carbohydrate.
Brian (44m 30s):
Okay. I'm sure a lot of people are hearing this, they're like, wow, this is great. I can just have sugar. I guess, you know, going back to the question I asked you, what would you say, you know, cuz obviously we said insulin is getting sort of a bad rap, carbs have gotten a bad rap, you know, obviously sugar. Who is the blame? I know, I think I know you're gonna say it's proper glucose oxidation, right? Being able to restore that. What is the blame, if you were gonna say for someone who's maybe type two diabetic and this is something that has come, come you know, over the years, maybe over the decades that someone's become diabetic.
Brian (45m 10s):
Would you say the biggest sort of villains are then if they're not insulin and if they're not sugar, what are Yeah,
Jay (45m 18s):
Yeah. So part of it to to, to get to those villains, we have to first identify that problem, right? And so I would point to that problem being proper efficient mitochondrial respiration, part of that involves the availability of, of fuel, the availability of fats and the availability of carbs. But it also involves a lot more than that. And so we know that we have a mitochondrial respiration problem. We know that as people are aging, their ability to produce ADP drops dramatically. We know that this is also something that you see throughout all these different chronic health conditions. It's very clear when it looks, when we look at type two diabetes, where you see an inability to properly convert that glucose all the way down through glycolysis on the Creb cycle and then electron transport chain.
Jay (46m 1s):
Instead you end up just going through glycolysis and you have a lot of fat oxidation to make up for it. We're basically in, in like a stress metabolism state, very similar to cancer metabolism. And we see this in, in what's going on in the brain and neurodegenerative states, this is part of why keytones are so helpful in those cases. But what we're seeing is, is at this underlying point we're seeing blocks or inefficient metabolism blocking the capacity to properly convert the fuel to energy. So we end up in the stress metabolism and there are a lot of different factors that go into making sure that those things are running properly and fixing that. One of the biggest ones that I think a lot of people are pointing to, but not necessarily pointing as as deep as they could as far as the reasons why are the polyunsaturated fats.
Jay (46m 46s):
So everyone's pointing at the seed oils, those omega sixes, they're a major problem. And yes, they trigger the inflammation pathways and things like that with their metabolites, but they also directly impair our ability to properly produce energy. And, and part of the way that there's a couple of ways that they do this. One of I would say the most important is that they are actually use this structure, they get integrated into the cellular structure and in the mitochondria the production of energy occurs at, at the inner mitochondrial membrane. And when we have more of the unsaturated fats there, it leads to a very porous membrane that that protons can flu through.
Jay (47m 25s):
And so it leads to very inefficient energy production. So if you think of like a hydroelectric dam where you have like a, all this water flowing through like a wheel sort of thing that's, that's producing energy. If that's held in by a dam and that dam has a bunch of holes in it and the water's leaking through, you have much less power to go through the, the actual hydroelectric power producing piece. And so that's kind of what's happening with the unsaturated fats among other things. There's, there's a handful of reasons but I would say tho that's one of the biggest that's causing issues with energy production. There's a handful of others as well. So there's a ton of nutrients involved with producing energy. So it's one of the main reasons why we need the various B vitamins, magnesium and zinc and all sorts of, of different vitamins and minerals that are involved in these steps.
Jay (48m 11s):
If we don't have enough of them, it's going to create kind of jams here. It's gonna prevent our ability to con, you know, convert all the way down this train to produce enough energy. And that is part of why you can see such benefits for certain B vitamins like niacinamide, which is B3 or vitamin B one in some of these insulin resistant states is cuz they, not only are they necessary for the energy production, but they also help to reverse a lot of the, the negative effects. So nutrients are a huge one and then there's a handful, more than a handful, There's a ton of factors that are kind of more external like the poa, the poly trade fats that block the efficient respiration. One of the ones that we talked about was endotoxin that we were discussing, but there's a handful of other bacterial toxins that could get produced in our guts or fungal toxins as well.
Jay (49m 0s):
And all of these, the reason why they're toxic is because they directly block our ability to efficiently respir to efficiently produce energy normally at different points along the electron transport chain. In addition to direct effects there they also then lead to the, to various inflammatory metabolites and all sorts of oxidative stress agents or different inflammatory products like even nitric oxide for example, create blocks of different points along energy production. So anything that's stimulating in inflamed oxidative stress sort of state is going to black energy production. Again, that includes the bacterial issues.
Jay (49m 40s):
It also is going to include heavy metal exposure and various pesticides. It's also potentially going to include some EMFs. It's, you know, ionizing radiation and things like that. There's, you know, it's, we still wanna be looking at all these factors in our environment, but I think it's really key that we're looking at it in terms of how they're affecting our ability to produce energy in the mitochondria and fixing that problem, fixing that underlying problem as opposed to saying, well we can't produce energy so let's just not taking carbs anymore. Like we can't use them well, so let's just forego the carbs.
Brian (50m 10s):
Yeah, no, I get that. So some of the things just to summarize that you mentioned were particular nutrient deficiencies, the over consumption of vegetables, gut health obviously was a big one you mentioned at the top of the show and then then possibly environmental factors. And I think with the one these things that you mentioned, all of these to some degree are, other than maybe nutrient definitions are tough to measure, right? Like, I mean to some degree like environmental factors. I know people who have gotten mold toxicity in like they've, this has been like a decade long search of trying to figure out what was wrong with them.
Brian (50m 50s):
And I've had people on the podcast who have, who've had multi toxicities and it's just like this ever, ever ending, you know, sort of, I don't know, puzzle to try to fix. So it's interesting and perhaps that's part of the reason why we are blaming maybe things that don't, shouldn't take the blame and the reason we're blaming maybe let's just say carbs or sugar is it's sort of easier to measure and to to sort of break down and understand why that, or perhaps, I guess it's just easier to measure so we can just put the blame on it as opposed to maybe some of these other things that you mentioned, like even like gut health, which can be somewhat of a trivial thing to measure and, and understand what's going on.
Jay (51m 38s):
And it's a, it's a pretty effective bandaid, I would say removing the carbs, people tend to feel good pretty quickly and in the short term, you know, it tends to be effective. And I'm not even saying that there's not a place for reducing carb intake to an extent. Sure. But I would only do that in the context A of only reducing it so much. But then B, you know, shifting the types of foods and then c working on fixing those underlying processes so then we can bring those carbs back in. And you're right, when it comes to something like mold toxicity, I mean that can be a really tricky one. So can a handful of these, I think the vast majority of ti of the time, I don't find going down those sorts of routes of possibilities to be necessary. I think that while those things are potential real issues, I think a lot of times too they can be overdiagnosed or can just be looked at as an issue, but are really just a result of a body that's not able to handle a stressor, that it should be able to, and maybe that's because of chronically downregulated metabolic function.
Jay (52m 35s):
And so, yeah, I, I would consider that as a, as a factor as well. And you're right, these things are hard to test and even nutrient deficiencies can be really hard to test. I mean, there's not very many markers that are reliable as far as looking at, you know, serum measures of, of nutrients. So depending on which one it is. But yeah, so, so it's, they can be tricky and, and of course part of the reason why, or or part of the result of that means that we need to be doing some self experimentation and trying different dietary strategies and see how we feel and use symptoms and other markers as a result. But, but normally if, if those things are a problem, if someone's deficient in B one and you add in some, some thymine, they should feel a difference.
Jay (53m 20s):
But I mean, yeah, these are, it's complex. It, you know,
Brian (53m 23s):
It what do you, I just nuanced, Gosh, I just interviewed a gentleman and it's, I'm drawing a blank, but he, he's gonna be out when, right after, right before this comes out. So, but I'm curious, you know, you hear about body set weight as a sort of genetic point where it's almost like a thermostat in your house where, you know, you set it for 70 and you know, we all, we all know sort of like, oh, you know, we have this certain weight that we're comfortable at. And moving that and getting that body set weight down can be very trivial and tough for individuals cuz you tend to yo-yo diet and come right back up to that weight, that body set weight. And he was mentioning that he believes it's 75% genetics, 25% environment.
Brian (54m 6s):
I'm just curious to know your thoughts around body set weight and how to potentially, if someone's been, you know, let's just say 30, 40 pounds overweight their whole lives and they yo and they, yo, what would be some, some ways to get that done other than just saying, okay, let's just get focused on insulin.
Jay (54m 24s):
Yeah, yeah. It's a tough distinction to make. So I certainly think there are hereditary components without a doubt, right, in people of different body types and you know, are more kind of prone toward different shapes. But that also doesn't mean that it's purely genetic in that it's not affected by the environment or the environment of prior generations. And we see, like I do, you know, we do see evidence of certain environmental factors and I don't mean environment is just like a pesticide, but you know, availability of different types of foods or lack of availability of different foods leading to an increased incidents of diabetes generations later. I think there's some, some evidence of that with Holocaust survivors. And so I don't think there's such a clear separation between what's hereditary and genetic versus what's environment.
Jay (55m 11s):
But I do think that we are given some amount of a starting point. Of course. Yeah. And that, Go
Brian (55m 19s):
Ahead. No, I was just gonna say no cuz I, I, the rhetoric I know with just even talking with like Dr. Jason Fung is to order to get that body set way down, we have to focus on getting insulin down and it seems like a very simplistic way of going about things. And I guess what would be your answer? You know, I'm sure it's could, maybe could be a really long answer, but what would be like a quick way of answering?
Jay (55m 47s):
Yeah, so the idea that that increased insulin equals increased fat gain, I think is, is erroneous. I don't think that that's a fair starting point or an accurate starting point. And there's some great papers looking at the car, what's called the carb insulin model of obesity. This idea that more carbs equals more insulin equals more body fat and creating, you know, providing some very good clear evidence that it's not that simple. There's a, a study that I will reference from, or that I reference often from Kevin Hall to metabolic word study looks at a very low carbohydrate diet versus very low fat diet or low carb versus low fat diet. And
Brian (56m 26s):
The low carb, low carb versus high carb or low carb versus low,
Jay (56m 31s):
It's low carb, high fat versus high, high carb low fat.
Brian (56m 34s):
Okay, gotcha.
Jay (56m 36s):
And in the low carb high fat diet, they have all the changes. You'd expect much higher levels of fat burning. They become fat burners, much lower levels of insulin. And you see the opposite in the other one, right? They're in the high carb group, they're burning a lot more carbs and their insulin's a lot higher. But what they found is that in the high carb group, they lost more body fat and less lean mass than in the high fat group. So despite having less insulin, or sorry, despite having, well I guess depends which way you wanna put it, despite having higher insulin, they lost more fat or the other way, despite having low insulin, they lost less fat and they lost more lean mass.
Jay (57m 16s):
And I think that just, and there's a, this is not like a, a unique study where every other study is showing something different. I mean this is, there's quite a bit of evidence against this, this very simplistic idea that it is just insulin equals fat gain. And that's in part for a couple reasons. One is that when we're carbs are not the only thing that cause fat gain like that can become fat. Fat that we take in can become body fat. And normally when someone's on a higher car diet, if they're gaining body fat, it's not from the carbs, it's because they're using those carbs and they're actually storing the body fat, storing the, the dietary fat as body fat. And I think this is one of those things that came out of this underlying assumption that low carb is better, so let's kind of fit all these other things around it.
Jay (58m 1s):
But the thing is that insulin is not required for fat to be taken up in the fat stores. So you can still be taking up free fatty acid and triglycerides in the fat stores without insulin and you can be storing those as body fat. And so there's nothing to say that high or low insulin means you're storing less fat. There's nothing to say that high low insulin means that you're releasing less fat either. There's a lot of regulatory steps going on and I, and to reduce it to that, I, I think at this point is largely, I mean there's a lot of evidence against it. Does that, like all of that being said, does that mean that someone who's insulin resistant has high insulin? That that's a good thing that that state is a good state? No, of course. I'm not saying that that's a good state to be in, but I would say it's not caused by high insulin.
Jay (58m 45s):
High insulin is a symptom, it's an effect of the state.
Brian (58m 48s):
Okay, got it. And let's touch on a famous, a topic that's been talked about a lot if you, if in the health is the Randall cycle. Sure. We don't have to go crazy in the detail, we can keep it just so you know, fairly basic just so people understand what that is and sort of, I know Paul Sal Dino's done our, done some thing, some, excuse me, some podcasts on it. But what is, maybe explain what the rental effect is and how it, it can maybe explain what the root cause of diabetes is.
Jay (59m 25s):
Yeah, so it's, it's normally called the rental cycle, but as you were saying it's, or suggesting it's not actually a cycle. It's more of just an effect. Okay. And the, what it basically says is that when a cell is oxidizing or using fat, it's burning fat, it's going to block the burning of carbohydrates and then vice versa, if a cell is burning carbohydrate, it's going to be blocking the burning of, of fat. And there's a lot of details there, detailed mechanisms, all sorts of things which you know, are important and you know, worth looking into. Right. And but the, sometimes what it's used to suggest is that we shouldn't be eating carbs and fats together because the cell can't burn both at the same time.
Jay (1h 0m 10s):
And I would say that that is, there's a couple of reasons why that's not the case. So for one is that the random cycle, again, it does suggest that a cell can only be burning one fuel at a time, but that doesn't mean that your body can't be burning multiple fuels at a time. And normally our bodies are pretty good at burning the fuels that they're given. So the another way of saying that, again, there's good research to support that the food quotient is, or the respiratory quotient I should say is dictated by the food quotient. So what that means is when we're talking about respiratory quotient, it's the, it's a proxy marker that's used to determine the amount of carb versus fat burning. Basically what they find is that the ratio of cars and fats that you take in affects the ratio of carbs and fats that you burn.
Jay (1h 0m 53s):
And, and that's, you know, a pretty simple idea. And the reason for that is because you can be taking in both fuels and different tissues can be burning both at the same time. So you can have a brain that's burning glucose and muscles at rest that are burning fat. Those things can be happening at the same time and there can be mixes all throughout all sorts of different tissues. So there's nothing inherent to the Randall effect that suggests that we shouldn't be consuming both carbs and fats at the same time. And if you wanted to also create a simplistic idea in terms of like, again, just a real quick counterpoint. If you were to take in a hundred units of carbs, a hundred units of fat or 50 of each, and let's just assume all else equal, let's assume you burn them the same way. The rental ol effect doesn't say anything about the, the fact that just because you're only burning carbs, you burn through those a hundred units immediately or because you're only burning fat, you burn through that a hundred units immediately.
Jay (1h 1m 42s):
But if you had 50 50, now all of a sudden there's gonna be huge fat storage. There's still a huge dictating piece here is how many units are being earned, how many units are being used for energy. And that's dependent on so many other factors. So it's a long way of saying is that this is, I think a and and this is a way that it can be misapplied, the Randall effect not something that Pulse aldena was, was doing. I know you were referencing him, he wasn't saying it this way.
Brian (1h 2m 9s):
Yeah, few other people I think maybe.
Jay (1h 2m 11s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and so the, what I would say, and you were suggesting what is the role here in terms of diabetes? So there are some important points. And so one is that when there are, when there's excess or there's large amounts of fat burning, it will impair our ability to burn those carbohydrates. And so in a state of diabetes, that's largely what you see, you see, and this is not unique to diabetes, you see this also unfortunately, virtually any state where our metabolism is blocked to some level inhibited due to the various factors we talked about. So you see it in fatty liver disease as well, very clearly, where there's this large upregulation of fat burning because we're not burning the glucose well.
Jay (1h 2m 53s):
And then you see high blood sugar and it's because we're relying so heavily on this fat burning that when we're taking the carbs in, they aren't able to be utilized effectively in the cell. And so that's leading to at least one of the factors leading to high blood sugar in those states. There's other factors as well.
Brian (1h 3m 10s):
So the blood sugar is high, it's not because of ingesting the glucose, it's because the liver's pumping out excess glucose because it's damaged and you can't properly metabolize the glucose in your bloodstream. Is this correct?
Jay (1h 3m 27s):
Yeah, the, the way I would kind of, kind of in chronological order, if you wanna think of it that way, I would say the cells can't use the glucose effectively to burn energy. So they shift to fat that leads to a stress date cuz they're, they're not getting the energy they need. That leads to the stress hormone production you mentioned. So that's gonna lead to glucose output from the liver, the glucogenesis you were mentioning, because we're relying on the fat oxidation. We can't burn the fat, the glucose, well that glucose that's getting produced is staying in the blood and leading to high blood sugar. It's not getting taken up by the cells which can't use it there. That uptake is being blocked by the fat oxidation and there are, and then if you consume carbs it kind of adds to that problem.
Jay (1h 4m 6s):
And there's of course some details here, but that's kind of like a, a basic idea of, of what's going on in those states.
Brian (1h 4m 14s):
Okay, cool. Yeah, that's, that's good to know cuz I keep hearing it come up and I wanted to just touch, I know you, if anyone wants to learn more about the Randall Cycle, I know you and, and your, your buddy Mike who you do your podcast with and the third guy who you guys do your own, what's his name?
Jay (1h 4m 31s):
Danny Ruddy?
Brian (1h 4m 31s):
Yeah, yeah. What's the name of that podcast?
Jay (1h 4m 33s):
Yeah, so that's called the bio energetic helpline.
Brian (1h 4m 36s):
Okay, okay, gotcha. I know you guys talked about that, I was listening to some of it, it get really gets into detail if people wanna learn more about that. Let's just to finish up, let's just to touch on how ways people can maybe improve gut health, reduce endotoxins and let's come up with some things they can do. One of 'em perhaps maybe removing gluten.
Jay (1h 5m 5s):
Yeah, yeah, I would say so. So I think it's a great topic and, and so the first thing I would say is let's get rid of the worst offenders and that's going to be the high anti nutrient foods, the ones that are really hard to digest and that's going to be raw vegetables, especially raw leafy greens, nuts and seeds, oil,
Brian (1h 5m 24s):
Grains. Yep. Yeah, go ahead, sorry.
Jay (1h 5m 26s):
Yeah, yeah. And, and so all of those are going to contain a lot of those antinutrients in gluten is one of those antinutrients found in, in wheat, which is a grain. And so reducing the those, especially the whole grains, especially the unprocessed whole grains. So if we're not soaking and sprouting or fermenting them, which helps to reduce the antinutrients and then also raw leafy greens and nuts and seeds, that's going to not only be a huge factor legumes as well. So only gonna be a huge factor for gut issues. You know, I can't tell you how many people will seed those things clear up dramatically the bloating and gas and things like that just by reducing some of those worst offenders. So yeah, I would say that's, that's step one. And and reducing the poly trade fats is a, is a big one as well.
Jay (1h 6m 8s):
They, they don't create, they aren't as directly or uniquely, uniquely damaging with their, with antinutrients, but the poly Andi fats alone are, are normally enough to, to cause some inflammation in the intestines.
Brian (1h 6m 22s):
Okay. So remove, remove gluten lectins which are in vegetable, a lot of raw vegetables, right? Also remove seed oils. Also reducing stress can help with gut health, right? That's a big one. And then from there you want to introduce nutrients, right? You want to eat nutrients that support gut health. You know this obviously, you know, I always talk about high nutrient dense foods. What are some of the foods and nutrients that you like to, I mean, know everyone's a little bit different and you know, obviously a lot of people are probably lacking in B vitamins or vitamin D and even vitamin A.
Brian (1h 7m 4s):
So what type of foods, you know, obviously we, I had a did a podcast on beef liver. I'm not saying you have to have liver every day, but I think it's, it's a good thing to implement from time to time. But what some, what are some of the other foods maybe that, that you like to implement for nutrients?
Jay (1h 7m 20s):
Yeah, there are, I mean I think we want to be centering our diet around nutrient dense foods and nutrient dense not only being micronutrient but also macronutrient dense. Meaning that they have the carbs, fats and proteins that, that we need to provide our body, the building blocks the fuel to, to function well. And so normally I'm centering that around good quality animal-based protein sources that are low in pfa. So lean away from most fatty pork fatty chicken unless it's grown superbly well, which is very rare, right? Because those are super high sources of pfa the fat in those, you can always get the leaner cuts though. So you know, chicken breasts without the skin or like some pork chops and things are gonna be lower in PFA even if they're not raised perfectly well because they're low fat options.
Jay (1h 8m 9s):
Also, you know, ruminant meat. So beef and bison and goat and lamb are all gonna be great sources, very highly saturated fats. And you were touching on the organ meats, which are great, whether it's liver, kidney, you know, on from there. Those are all, all very nutrient dense
Brian (1h 8m 25s):
And you're seeing this so a very protein, somewhat protein centric animal based proteins that are high in nutrient density. And then, you know, people are like, well what carbs, you know, I can't have plants, I can't have grains and, and I, I've, I got, I remember getting away from like, I remember eating cereal back in the day and just getting away from that cuz I was like bloated beyond belief. I haven't had cereal in probably 20 years. But you know, this is why I think you're seeing some people in the carnivore space implement fruit because it's the least top toxic of the carbs can be digested very easily. Would you agree with that?
Brian (1h 9m 6s):
Any other carb sources maybe that if people want to implement, I know you might tubs or things like that.
Jay (1h 9m 11s):
Yeah, just, just to round out the, the protein sources real quick. I would just also low POA seafood. I know high, high omega three seafood is, is often so recommended and I would personally lean away from that. Maybe we can talk about issues with the omega three s as well, but
Brian (1h 9m 25s):
Oh wow. That could be another podcast. You're, you're so like wild salmon, you, you not a fan,
Jay (1h 9m 34s):
Correct? Yeah I would and there's a lot of low, there's a lot of low fat seafood, right? So cod, mahi mahi, I wanna say grouper halibut, tuna, of course you wanna be careful with heavy metals, but there's a lot of low fat options. Salmon is salmon and like Chilean sea bass, there's a couple others that are high fat but most fish are actually not. And
Brian (1h 9m 55s):
The reason what if you're getting that salmon from a really good source, you're still not a fan.
Jay (1h 9m 60s):
So I'm not a fan of the omega3 s and the salmon's gonna be very high in fat, very high in pofa, which normally there's a lot of focus on the omega six s, but the omega three s are also poly saturated fat and I would say carry with them largely the same issues that
Brian (1h 10m 15s):
You're just knocked out half my wife and i's diet, right? Oh my god I gotta call her after this is done. Sorry. Oh
Jay (1h 10m 22s):
No,
Brian (1h 10m 24s):
We won't stop eating salmon. We get, we get it from a really good source. I actually had the CEO of Utopia and they make sushi grit. It's unbelievable if you and, and you, you can, it's not just all salmon, there's a lot of mix of different things but it's all sushi grade and it's actually farm raised but they farm raised in an environment that it, that it should be that the, the fish should be eating the correct diet. It's actually a pretty neat company outta California. But yeah, go ahead and
Jay (1h 10m 52s):
I'd be curious, maybe it's lower fat, maybe it's grown in, in a better environment and lower fat. Normally it's just the nature of it, it tends to be higher fat as a
Brian (1h 10m 59s):
Cold. So you're just saying because of the high pfa of the, the salmons and the, the, the fishes that are fattier, that's, that can be an issue.
Jay (1h 11m 10s):
Yeah, yeah. You know I'm not a fan of the fish oils either or just omega-3 S in general. What
Brian (1h 11m 16s):
About, oh sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.
Jay (1h 11m 18s):
I was just gonna say it doesn't mean like we should absolutely never eat these things. I just don't think the omega-3 S are ideal.
Brian (1h 11m 24s):
Yeah cuz omega3 s get talked about so much. That could be a whole nother podcast but we'll, we'll we'll go maybe another time on that but okay, so, so, so animal organs obviously if you can add those in time to time, obviously grass fed, grass-finished meat, shellfish.
Jay (1h 11m 44s):
Yeah shellfish is great. Oysters, muscles, clams, eggs, there are some crustaceans in there. Shrimp, lobster and did you say eggs? Yeah.
Brian (1h 11m 51s):
What are your thoughts on that? Okay, eggs
Jay (1h 11m 53s):
Are great. They're gonna be, you know, they've got a bit of poof up but I mean I, not enough that I would be concerned about it at all, especially if they're, if they're pasture raised, you know, good quality eggs, the conventionally raised ones can be, I wanna say as much as 20, 30% poa. So I would say it's an area where it's good to get important to get good
Brian (1h 12m 13s):
Quality and then you gotta be careful with chicken, Turkey and pork, which is something that my wife and I really don't eat much. Occasionally we'll get some chicken but that'll be pasture raised obviously try to make it to get it from a quality source.
Jay (1h 12m 26s):
Yeah and I mean the labeling and it's difficult with all those foods. So yeah, I would just say you wanna investigate it, you know for a lot of the pork for example, they'll talk about it being pastured and acorn fed acorns are super high in pfa. You know, they might be given very high PFA feed still. So you just wanna be aware of those things. Same thing with with chickens, you know, don't want it to be vegetarian fed. Right? You want it to be pasted eating lots of bugs, andreen things. Yeah. And then dairy I would say is another great very nutrient dense source as well for whether it's, you know, milks, cheeses, butter butter's not gonna be quite as nutrient dense. But
Brian (1h 13m 2s):
Have you ever had raw milk before?
Jay (1h 13m 4s):
Yeah, yeah,
Brian (1h 13m 6s):
Yeah. There's a farm like 45 minutes from me. I, I would go every Saturday cuz literally there's a line out the door for the raw dairy. So
Jay (1h 13m 15s):
Yeah, it's normally pretty expensive too.
Brian (1h 13m 18s):
Yeah, it can be. It can be. Yeah. And you don't want it to sit on the shelf for that long so. Right. Another thing that I've heard a little bit in sort of the bio energetic and sort of the ray heat environment that, that you're, you're in is the raw carrots. Hmm. What is the, what is the, the big thing with raw carrots that you guys,
Jay (1h 13m 39s):
Yeah so just, I don't know, just in case listeners are, are upset that we haven't gone back to the carb sources. I'll maybe touch on those real
Brian (1h 13m 48s):
Quick. Oh that's right, yes. Well we did hit some of 'em. Amy fruit and then go ahead. You could hit on the rest of them. Yeah,
Jay (1h 13m 53s):
Yeah. Ripe fruit honey maple syrup I think are all great options. I would also throw in other forms of fruit, so that can be dried fruit or fruit juices, you know, frozen fruit, things like that. We could talk about whether juice is a good idea or not. And you know, maybe, we'll, we'll slide
Brian (1h 14m 9s):
A minute on that. Orange. Orange juice.
Jay (1h 14m 11s):
Yeah, orange pineapple, great pomegranate. I mean there's a ton of options. What some of the best things about juice are that it's normally ripe year round, especially if it's pasteurized cause they're getting it from ripe fruit at whatever season it was in. And a lot of times it's hard to find ripe fruit, especially in the states, you know, for a large portion of the year. So it's one, one good thing with the fruit juice and is basically, you know, constantly available quality and also the concentration, if somebody has high carb needs, it can be pretty hard to do that when you're talking berries and, and melons and things that are really filling.
Brian (1h 14m 46s):
I I, I was gonna mention that, yeah, like I'm, I've been implementing more carbs and I, I've been tracking it and it is, it is difficult, you know, if you're having berries and like you mentioned raspberries, blueberries, things like that. It's so go ahead. Yeah, so, so orange juice is probably a quick and easy way. Do you have any, and I meant to ask you this earlier, any like what about mixing foods? Any, I know you, we talked about mixing carbs and fats and that you don't believe that's an issue. Anything with mixing fruit with anything or is that all good?
Jay (1h 15m 20s):
So there's some things to consider when it comes to, so on one hand, on the carb metabolism side, if somebody is not as efficiently oxidizing carbs and it can be helpful to have slower trickles, slower digesting carbs sources or slower absorbing carbs sources. And so what that would mean is maybe leaning away from honey or fruit juice, especially on their own. And that means maybe leaning toward more of the whole fruit or at the very least having the honey or or fruit juice with a meal or after a meal before a meal, something like that. So it's mixed with the fat and protein to help the digestion slow down a little bit.
Jay (1h 16m 0s):
But in someone who's really efficiently metabolizing carbohydrates and has high needs and everything, I normally having some fruit juice on its own should be okay. Again, it's gonna depend on the individual and so, so that would be some of the main thoughts on the carb tolerance side of course also wanting to adjust the, the amount, right that's gonna vary between the individual. And I would say one other category of carbs that I would, that I suggest often is well cooked roots and tubs, potatoes, sweet potatoes, any sort of root vegetables you mentioned, carrots, parsnips, whatever it is. I also think there's benefit to rock carrots too.
Brian (1h 16m 36s):
Rock carrots. And then for, for sweet potato and baked potato, like obviously just getting 'em and getting organic, getting it from a good source. And And what do you typically like just bake them?
Jay (1h 16m 48s):
You
Brian (1h 16m 49s):
Do you put butter on it? Do you put butter
Jay (1h 16m 50s):
On? Yeah, I think so. I think pairing the starches with the saturated fats really helpful for their digestion. I would also not eat the skin of the roots and tubes cuz there are antinutrients there and it's generally not very digestible.
Brian (1h 17m 2s):
Well that's the best part.
Jay (1h 17m 6s):
It's easy for me to say I never liked the skin so much,
Brian (1h 17m 8s):
Although they always say all the nutrients are in the skin, although maybe that's, they say that more for like apples, but
Jay (1h 17m 13s):
Well, and they say that for grains and all that too, it's all, all on the whole grain. That's where all the nutrients are. It's why you don't wanna process, but those nutrients are bound up with, you know, phytic acid, oxalic acid, things like that. And, and so you do some of those issues with the, the root vegetables too. So I would lean away from the skins and yeah, I think you can, you can boil them, bake them, saute them. I mean I would say you do want to have a fat source with it, typically it does help with the digestion and taste too.
Brian (1h 17m 39s):
So, So steak and baked potatoes fine by you.
Jay (1h 17m 42s):
There you go.
Brian (1h 17m 43s):
I mean that doesn't sound so bad.
Jay (1h 17m 46s):
Yeah. And, and so you mentioned mixed meals and I just to add another piece there is the digestion component. And so one thing that tends not to go very well is having like a huge plate of watermelon and then trying to have a steak, at least from my perspective, or for most people it's, it's like you're, you're very full, you're kind of diluting your stomach acid and some other digestive juices with a lot of water, a lot of liquid, and then trying to add a stake on that. So that's, again, it all depends on the individual, but normally I, I would try to separate those a little bit. Maybe if for having a really watery fruit, I might have that away from like a heavy dense protein meal or maybe just like 15 minutes before is kind of like an appetizer maybe after as a, as a dessert or something like that.
Brian (1h 18m 32s):
Couple, few, few more things. So the raw carrots, you like them because they help remove endotoxins in the gut. Is, is there been some studies regarding that?
Jay (1h 18m 42s):
Yeah, so it's helpful to have some fiber sources to promote the growth of healthy bacteria. It's also helpful to have some fiber sources to help move, get like a good motility to prevent the growth of excess growth of bacteria. And a huge component when it comes to all plant foods is the polyphenols. So whether we're talking about root vegetables or fruits or even raw vegetables, I just don't think we want those for other reasons. Their, their dent to these polyphenols, they give them their color and have all sorts of effects. And normally I would say, you know, Paul Aldino for example is not a fan of these in high amounts because of their potentially toxic effects and hormetic effects when they're consumed and absorbed in high doses.
Jay (1h 19m 26s):
But most of them are not actually very well absorbed instead, especially when we're just consuming them in food with fiber, it helps to prevent the absorption of a lot of those polyphenols and it carries them to the large intestine where they have mild antimicrobial effects. So they slow the growth of certain bacteria, prevent the growth of certain bacteria, they can actually kill off some, some harmful bacteria and tend to do it in a pretty remarkable way where they tend to only to benefit the good ones and tend only to kill off or reduce the harmful ones.
Brian (1h 19m 55s):
And you're talking about carrots,
Jay (1h 19m 56s):
Not only carrots but polyphenols from berries or fruits or, or anything like that. The nice thing about a carrot, raw carrot or radishes bamboo shoots is that they have certain fibers that are gonna help them get to the large intestine. Plus they have the polyphenols that also are gonna come with and help as kind of a very, very mild antibiotic sort of effect. And, and you can also add olive oil or coconut oil vinegar, which also have some parallel antimicrobial effects and help to sort out the, the balance of bacteria in the large intestines. So it's an easy and sometimes pretty effective way to improve gut motility and support gut health and even help with the excretion of certain, certain toxic things that we excrete in our bile, which includes estrogens.
Jay (1h 20m 43s):
So it can actually help to lower our systemic estrogen availability and prevent it from being reabsorbed. So having some sources of like that, like a raw carrot can be effective.
Brian (1h 20m 55s):
Is a raw carrot, does it not have as many antinutrients as, cuz it's as obviously some of the other vegetables that you mentioned?
Jay (1h 21m 4s):
Yeah, so when we're talking antinutrients and vegetables, the leafy greens are by far the worst with carrots. There's gonna be a very small amount in there. And again, ideally not very well absorbed and, and with a fiber being carried to the large intestine, the, you know, we have this kind of culinary idea of fruits and vegetables, but when you actually look at the foods, it's not that simple. So like a bell pepper, for example, is actually a fruit and Roma outside is, is fine to eat raw or cooked. And you know, the same thing with like tomatoes again, there can be some issues and people who are particularly sensitive to night shades, for example. Right. But for the most part they tend to be very low on the antinutrients and not to cause issues.
Brian (1h 21m 47s):
Do you ever have kimchi?
Jay (1h 21m 50s):
I've had,
Brian (1h 21m 51s):
That's enough
Jay (1h 21m 52s):
Sauerkraut. I don't know if I ever tried the, the kimchi. I used to do a homemade sauerkraut.
Brian (1h 21m 57s):
Okay, yeah, fermented vegetables like kimchi. I'm not a huge, a lot of 'em have like chili pepper in 'em and they could be pretty, I'm, I'm like a wimp when it comes to that stuff, but I know people who, who really love that. But
Jay (1h 22m 12s):
Yeah, living in Latin America, you definitely, your spice tolerance definitely increases
Brian (1h 22m 16s):
Corn. Oh yeah, that's right. You get all that, those types of food. Awesome. Well I think that's pretty much everything I wanted to touch on. I mean, yeah, we're gonna do another part two with Dr. Domino, so look out for that. And Jay, where's the best place for people to, you know, read and learn about your, your activities?
Jay (1h 22m 40s):
Yeah, so well just real quick as far as the fermented foods go. Oh yeah, I will say I normally don't actually recommend those as much. I would normally lean toward supporting our microbiome with the fibers from fruits and root vegetables and those polyphenols and allowing those to shape our microbiome as opposed to, especially with the commercially, the commercial fermented foods where you're adding in all these cultures and just kind of, it's the equivalent of taking a probiotic. And I tend not to, to go that routed. I think we wanna let our foods create the healthy microbiome as opposed to trying to superimpose it into that
Brian (1h 23m 13s):
Statement. Yeah, and that's a good point. And, and just to rehash, the main things that we talked about regarding reducing endotoxin was just cutting out a lot of the things that could be causing harm first, like removing gluten lectins, what else? Seed oils, reducing stress. And then, and then once you know, heat, once the gut is some, and that's why, you know, like you mentioned fasting can play a role in heat, in in gut health as well, and then add in, you know, these nutrients that can help support it that we talked about.
Jay (1h 23m 43s):
Yeah. And there are further steps, right? Some people they'll try to bring some of these foods in and will have symptoms of, of endotoxin production, got bacterial toxin production, they'll have bloating or things like that. And that's a sign that maybe there's issues higher up with actual breakdown of those foods. The actual digestion of the digestion. Maybe there's issues with the absorption, maybe there's a major bacterial and balance that is not going to be solved just by clearing out some of the harmful ones. And you might need to, you know, look to certain supplements, help clear things out. Maybe you'll need to look to a CBO test. I mean, it depends on the context, but there is a place as well where addressing those issues can be, can require some extra steps.
Brian (1h 24m 22s):
Excellent. Well, we've touched on a lot what j j feldman wellness.com right?
Jay (1h 24m 32s):
Yeah, yeah. My website's jay feldman wellness.com. I do a podcast or I have a podcast called the Energy Balance Podcast. And then you mentioned earlier, I also do a separate podcast called the Bio Energetic Help Line. But kinda my main, main one is the Energy Balance podcast and ton of articles and, and all that information can be found on my website, which is dave feldman wellness.com. And I do also have a free mini-course for listeners that talks through some basics as far as maybe what we wanna look to in terms of macronutrient intake, how stress is involved, how exercise plays in here, and how we can basically orient our lives, our environment, the things that we're giving our bodies to fix those energy producing processes and use that as our, as our jumping off point to improve our health.
Jay (1h 25m 17s):
And so listeners can find that free mini course@jfeldmanwellness.com slash energy.
Brian (1h 25m 24s):
Awesome. Excellent. Yeah, I'll put links in the show notes for that. And Jay, I appreciate you coming on and, and I, I think the, the listeners will get a ton of value from today.
Jay (1h 25m 35s):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me, Brian. I appreciate
Brian (1h 25m 37s):
It. And we didn't have a mini earthquake, so everything was
Jay (1h 25m 40s):
Success.
Brian (1h 25m 42s):
All right. Thanks so much Jay. Thanks for listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrn.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.
