0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): What I try to teach people to do is know that the number one authority for you is you and the way you feel like, you know, for example, I'm gonna go back to my experience with KIDO. I read everything that was out there. Of course, remember this is 2014. So, you know, that'll help you see what was out there. But I read everything that was out there. I fully bought into the, the science behind why this was going to work for me. And I was convinced, and then my body hated it. And you know, people like, well, you just weren't doing it right. Well, no, my body really didn't like it. I'm telling the truth there. Then I, I re-introduced carbs started doing intermittent fasting and the weight started to come off and I immediately felt better. 1 (47s): You know, with the addition of carbs, I felt so much better and went on to lose all the weight I wanted to lose while eating carbs the whole time. 0 (56s): Hello and welcome to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin. And I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was in five, 10, even 15 years ago, each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed New York times bestselling author and podcast host Jen Stevens. She's just releasing her new book cleanish and cleanish leads readers to focus on real foods and a healthier home environment, free of toxins without fixating on perfection. So in this interview, we discussed the importance of having a true why when it comes to losing weight, how to avoid paralysis of analysis, her hybrid fasting approach, and the importance of crowding out processed foods. 0 (1m 45s): This is my second time around with gin. I really enjoyed it. I know you will too. And thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right, welcome to the get lean knee clean podcast. My name is Brian grin, and I have a special guest that the second time around Jen Stevens, welcome to the show. Hey, 1 (2m 4s): I am so glad to be here. And I love that. You know, the second part of your podcast name is eat clean today. We're going to be eat cleanish right. 0 (2m 11s): Exactly. If we're going to just say a lot of issues today, mainly because Jen is coming out with a new book, which she sent to me very nice. And it is called cleanish right. I haven't read it yet. 1 (2m 26s): Yeah, there it is. I loved the way that cover turned out. I got to have a lot of input in that, which was nice. And I was like, no, no, no. Then I got to make suggestions. I loved the whole part of that. 0 (2m 37s): Yeah, I think it looks great. And my first question for you is what, what did you learn most about writing a book up? We know this is probably a big undertaking. I mean, this is quite the book. This is over, you know, almost 400 pages. 1 (2m 53s): I think it's quite a book. It's a lot of information. It's not my first time at this book writing rodeo. It's really funny. We go back, I write my first book in 2016, delayed on deny. And that was, you know, I self published that one. It's quite a different process to self publish versus going through a traditional publisher. Now I'm not going to really admit out loud how quickly I wrote delayed don't deny. But let's just say from, I mean, I've done a lot of like, thinking about it over time. Right. But from actual sitting down with my computer to having it out in the world was not as long as you might think it just kind of flowed out of me. I put it out there. I was trying to get it out by January 1st. So bam, there, it was. 1 (3m 34s): And, but the process of writing a book for their traditional publisher, you know, I, we actually started first talking about cleanish in like, okay, what year is it now? It's in 2020. Yeah, the whole everything's a blur. So in 2020 we started getting the idea together and then finally got the, you know, it's a go to write it from my publisher. And I mean, this book, I started really, really, really digging into the research in January of, I mean, I started doing putting some outlining together and I had it kind of mapped out before that, but really digging in, in January of 2021. And it was due by March 31st. 1 (4m 16s): So I was, I had to work really, really a lot on it, but I also was late turning it in which, for a teacher like me, that's hard to admit it. Cause I liked, I liked deadlines, but they were okay with it. 0 (4m 27s): So you had about three months to put it 1 (4m 29s): Together. It ended up being about three and a half. And the good thing is we turn in your first draft, you still have time to, you know, go in and make changes and, you know, make it better all along the way, like the version you got from the publishers and early reader copy. So like the formatting isn't right. It still has two more typos, but it goes through a lot of eyes look at it between, you know, when I turned it in, in April and now. 0 (4m 54s): And I'm curious if there's a Ford by Dr. Tim Spector, who's the author of spoonfed and what, what is his, you know, what does he do with this book? Does he just go through it and help you with it? Or how does that 1 (5m 5s): No, he just wrote the forward. Yeah. He is somebody that I've looked up to since before I write my first book, I read his first book, the diet myth in probably it might've been 2015. And so it was right when I had lost the weight that I needed to lose lost over 80 pounds altogether with intermittent fasting from 14 to 15. But I read his book, the diet myth because I was really reading, you know, just anything I could get my hands on. I was, you know, now like really loving to learn about my body and foods and all of that. Right. And he, his background, first of all, he's done a lot of work with twins, identical twins, some of his research, which I've always found to be fascinating, you know, like the stories of identical twins separated at birth and they meet up, you know, 50 years later and they each have a white fence around a tree and their wife's name is Betty or something, you know? 1 (5m 54s): So I've always been fascinated by the role of genetics in our, but he also studies the gut microbiome. So really it was the first I had read about the gut microbiome and he also talked a little bit about fasting in there. So I was like, oh, okay. So I was like, I really liked what he has to say. So when his next book came out, sorry, my phone's ringing. Turn that off. When is my husband? I'll talk to him later. When my, when my, when his next book came out, spin fed, I read that one. And he goes even into more detail. And so I was following his work well, he's doing something now called the predict studies where they're trying to figure out, you know, like the whole concept of bio-individuality and that our bodies are all different when it comes to how we react to things. 1 (6m 39s): And it's, it's an interplay between yes, our genetics that plays a role, but the gut microbiome plays an even more powerful role. So with the predict studies, they're really looking at individuals, you know, analyzing the gut microbiome, looking at, you know, using a continuous glucose monitor to see how your body responds to what you eat. You know, how quickly does your body clear fat? How quickly does your body clear glucose after you eat? All of those are predictors of, you know, what foods are going to work well for you. So I was aware of his work and actually participated in predict three through Zoe program and turns out that like, I didn't like do it as Jen Stevens. 1 (7m 21s): I just did it as a person. I'm like, I'm just going to sign up for this. I'm going to do it. And I did it well, they figured out who I was, I guess somebody like, they sent me an email and they're like, we would like to have a special, you know, talk with you about your results. And when we were having the conference call, I was like, do you do this with everybody? They're like, no, we do it with you. They're like, well, nice to meet you. I didn't even know. It was kind of funny. But from that we, you know, started partnering up. Cause I recommend the Zoe program to everybody. And they're like, would you like to officially work with us as, you know, like an affiliate and you know, talk about how we can promote it. And I'm like, well, I would love that. And in the meantime then, you know, the people I was talking to like know Tim, right. 1 (8m 2s): They work with Tim. And so on one call, I was like, you know, I'm working on a book. This is like last spring, I'm working on a new book. And it really seems like something that, that he would like, I wonder if he would write the forward for it. You know, you just asked him, I just asked. And the, the, the, the person who worked with him very, very closely was like, I'll talk to him and see what he says. And then he agreed to do it. And so when it got to the point that I'd already written cleanish I sent a copy to him. It was an electronic copy at that point. I was like, what if he hates? But he didn't. And he did write the foreword. And so that was just exciting. Cause he's a real, you know, hard scientists doing the research that I really look up to. 1 (8m 44s): And so for him to find value in the book and, and like it, that was, you know, I don't know about this is just garbage, Jen. I don't know somebody didn't say that. So that was good. So that was a long answer to your question. 0 (8m 57s): What did you gain from the, the studies that, that you did with him for your 1 (9m 2s): That's a great question. I learned that first of all, no surprise. My body does not clear fat well. And so if I eat too much fat, it's inflammatory for my body that did not surprise me at all because I never felt great. When I did a low carb, high fat kind of eating, like keto made me feel inflamed and awful, and it makes sense too much fat for my body. We're not all the same, but I also learned, I don't clear the sugar very well, either blood glucose, like my body doesn't clear that quickly. So it just helped me to realize what made sense also why, you know, when, even when I was a little girl, if I ate too many sweets, I could feel that blood sugar crash and my body just doesn't do well with that. 1 (9m 43s): So I'll just have to be more intentional, really. It's all about how you combine the foods and that, that might, you know, harken back to crazy food, combining diets from like the past. But it just means like if I eat something that's higher carb also having the fat and the protein with it slows the absorption. It just has to do with how your body processes it. Like if I drink straight sugar, that's very different than if I have, you know, something that has more protein, but then anyway. 0 (10m 12s): Right. And that probably goes for most people, but it is interesting how you say you don't clear fat as well because you know, obviously keto, keto diets, the big craze now. And, you know, for someone like myself, I would say, I do eat on that. You know, I would say I have probably more, more fat than normal, but yeah, I feel great with it, but yeah, like, yeah, right. 1 (10m 37s): Individuality and I, a hundred percent believe people who feel great on it and say that they do. But when I was trying to do it, this is before I lost all the weight with intermittent fasting, it was 2014. I had, you know, it was on Facebook at that time joined a bunch of keto groups and the whole, the advice was well, just keto harder. If you're not feeling good, you're doing it wrong. And knowing now that you know, actually, no, I wasn't doing it wrong cause I'm, I can follow rules really well, but I felt so bad, but now it makes sense why I felt so bad and honestly, the crazy low fat diets that I didn't really do very well back in the nineties, I lost great on the low fat diet. So of course I was doing it really wrong. I was doing the whole ultra process, you know, eat the snack Wells. 0 (11m 20s): Yeah. I remember those Snackwell cookies. My mom bought those. 1 (11m 25s): They were free foods because they had no fat in that also is wrong. You know, all that was a very ultra processed, heavy way to do the diet. And when you actually go back and read those low fat books from the nineties, they were not encouraging Snackwells and SpaghettiOs. They were like, eat real food, just not as much fat. So I'm like, oh, I ignored all that part. 0 (11m 48s): Yeah. I think a lot of people did think a lot of people. And, and you talk about in the book, I'm just getting back to that. Cause I was, I went through it. I didn't get to read the whole thing cause I've had it for a few days, but some, some of the highlights, this quote, I, I took from it, the goal of the book is to teach and remind you of the why and help you develop your, how. And I really liked that because I think a lot of times that gets lost in all this, oh, well, what should I eat? When should I eat it? And you get sort of confused, but if you really don't have a true reason why you're actually doing the things that you're doing for your health, then you're, it's, it's tough to make any progress. 1 (12m 27s): That's a hundred percent true. You know, my background, you know, this about me. I was an elementary teacher for 28 years. I taught kids. And you know, I know that when the kids, for example understood why they were doing what they were doing, whether you're teaching them math or teaching them to raise their hands. I mean, it's everything when they understand the why they're more motivated to stick with something. So everything that I write is from that point of view of I'm going to teach you the important things that you need to know. And then you're going to know why you're going to do those things. And then you're going to be more likely to do them. You know, like when the whole process of getting cleanish, you know, I can make food lists, tell you what to eat, what not to eat when to eat it, whatever. 1 (13m 9s): That's not going to give you meaningful change. But when you start understanding why you're like, oh, Hm, artificial sweeteners disrupt my gut microbiome to the degree that they actually make. It makes it hard for me to lose weight down the line. Oh, now that's, now I understand why I probably should avoid artificial sweeteners. They're not like this magical, helpful thing that we've been told they were because they actually damage our gut microbiomes. So when you understand the why, and that's, you're like, okay, well I don't want that. 0 (13m 41s): Right. Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. And you know, I think another thing that I found from the book is you talk a little bit about like paralysis of analysis as well. Like, and I think that's more and more prevalent today because I think every other day something new comes out or there's like a new opinion or there's a study that probably doesn't have any much basis behind it, but it's out there. And so, you know, even myself, you know, being in the health industry for so long, I sometimes I I'm like, well, you know, one person just said, talked so great about fiber and another person just talked to down really. I mean, you know, you got Paul Saladino with carnivore and talking about how, you know, perhaps you don't need fiber. 0 (14m 25s): And then, you know, I'm just reading, looking at your book and some other, I just got, I don't know if you've read a book called metabolically, 1 (14m 32s): I've not read metabolically, but my co-host on the intermittent thousand podcasts. I think she interviewed him for her podcast. She, she has one called the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. I think she interviewed him. 0 (14m 43s): Yeah. Yeah. I really do enjoy the book, but he's big into fiber and it's just like, you know, you just have these differing opinions. So there can be a little bit of paralysis analysis. Like we gotta go, how do you go about, you know, sort of not getting too caught up in every other opinion out there, 1 (15m 1s): You know, that's really huge. And what I try to teach people to do is know that the number one authority for you is you and the way you feel like, you know, for example, I'm gonna go back to my experience with KIDO. I read everything that was out there. Of course, remember this is 2014. So, you know, that'll help you see what was out there. But I read everything that was out there. I fully bought into the, the science behind why this was going to work for me. And I was convinced, and then my body hated it. And you know, people like, well, you just weren't doing it right. Well, no, my body really didn't like it. I'm telling the truth there. Then I, I re-introduced carbs started doing intermittent fasting and the weight started to come off and I immediately felt better. 1 (15m 46s): You know, with the, with the addition of carbs, I felt so much better and went on to lose all the weight I wanted to lose while eating carbs the whole time. So, you know, for someone to say, for example, no one needs carbs, which I've heard that I've heard people say, and that's like kind of the mantra in the keto world. There is no requirement for carbs in the human body. You don't need them. Well, well, my brain chemistry needs them. I feel better when I eat them. I feel satisfied when I eat, when I was eating keto, I never, one time felt like I was satisfied from eating and you can trust your body. And, and I knew I didn't feel good. And I also wasn't losing any weight. So I think it's just, you know, getting rid of that noise and giving yourself permission to eat and figure out what feels good to you, right? 1 (16m 36s): You know, the whole idea of fiber. I talk about this and cleanish a bit, and whether fiber works well for your gut or not has a lot to do with the health of your gut and what lives in your gut. You know, if we eat the standard American diet, which so many of us have eaten over the years and you know, it's, it's the, the mainstay of, of most people in America, right? And if you're eating the standard American diet, that damages your gut, absolutely over time in all the processed foods, you know, it's the standard American diet is a very low fiber diet. In general. Most Americans are not getting very much fiber and you have all the chemicals in there which also damage your gut. 1 (17m 18s): Then you end up with a very unhealthy gut microbiome profile in general. So now let's say someone with a very unhealthy gut decides they're going to just change everything and they're going to eat. Like, I don't know, maybe you're going to be whole food vegan, whatever you start eating that way. Oh. And you feel terrible and it makes your gut feel worse and well that's because you're in a place where your gut is not healthy and maybe you feel fabulous. Let's just say carnival, or you're just eating meat. And you don't feel that digestive upset, but that's a function of the fact that your gut has been damaged based on possibly decades of poor dietary choices. So it's a matter of adding it back in more gradually a healthy gut does tolerate a variety of things. 1 (18m 3s): You know, a healthy gut can tolerate foods that our ancestors were eating, you know, go back. And what were your ancestors eating? They were not eating a hundred percent meat. I guarantee it. But, you know, even in places like the Arctic, you know, with the NUS, I have been like held up as like, well, look, there's some healthy, they just eat a lot of, you know, keynote kind of a thing. But in the seasons where they could eat plant foods, they did, they, they ate them when they were available. So, you know, natural populations aid in all sorts of different ways and healthy, they, you know, there were, there are populations that lived, you know, in the tropics and ate like a hundred percent carbs practically. 1 (18m 43s): And they were very, very healthy, but they were eating real foods and it's just a matter of, of yeah. Real food. It really comes down to real foods. And also, like I just said, an unhealthy gut and unhealthy body may not tolerate all real foods, but you really can, you know, build back up that tolerance for a lot of things. Does that mean every food works for everybody forever and ever? No. 0 (19m 5s): Yeah. I completely agree. It does come down to like service self-experimentation. Cause I can remember for a while I used to have like a big salad with some type of protein in the middle of the day. And I, it actually like, I, it slowed me down quite a bit. And so I actually backed off a little bit on that and went a little bit more protein, fat combination, maybe eggs and avocado. And I felt like I like, I, that sustained energy throughout the day kept going as opposed to feeling like it sort of weighed me down and who's, you know, eating a nice big salad with a good protein is, is, you know, technically a healthy meal for most people. 0 (19m 46s): For most people. Some people can't tolerate it as much as others, but you have to sort of, you know, try both see how you feel. You know, maybe don't try it for a day. Maybe try it for a week. It's almost like the saying, you know, like if you're, if you're like Brad Kearns talks about, you know, you're having these meals and you're getting up, you know, gas and an upset stomach, well something's going on. Right. You really shouldn't be having it. I always, you know, so like you said, just keep an eye on how you're feeling or, you know, things like dairy and stuff. Some people can tolerate some people can't 1 (20m 18s): Dear is an interesting conversation because I'm really, probably only about 25% of us are genetically able to handle dairy well. Right. And it has to do with whether you're lactase persistent or not. And it goes away bacteria ancestors. Again, we know what dairy is. Dairy is food for babies of mammals. That's what it was designed for. And so we have there, the enzyme lactase that shuts off after we get out of babyhood and then we'd get into adulthood. But for about 25% of us, our ancestors relied on dairy as part of their diet. And so your lactase persistent as you go through life, meaning you can still, you can still digest well tolerated into adulthood. 1 (21m 6s): And you know, I've had my DNA analyze. I am lactase persistent, which is exciting. I can eat dairy. And when I say dairy works well for me and I feel great, it's true. But for, you know, the 75% of people that are not when dairy causes them problems, that is also true. So it's, it's just when people make blanket statements like, yeah. Dairy is just for babies. It's just for, you know, it's not for adult humans that, well, that might, they might feel really bad from it and it's not for them, but that doesn't mean it's universal. 0 (21m 36s): Yeah. And have you tried broad dairy? 1 (21m 40s): You know, I live in a state where we can't get it. I'm so sad. I would like actually I actually have tried it if I go back to my childhood, I remember, you know, a friend of mine had it. Her dad was a dairy farmer in Virginia. So 0 (21m 55s): Let me tell you, once you go raw dura, you're not going to want to go back to regular. Yeah. Cause we got some, I just tried it a few weeks ago. We drove, there's a farm, like 45 minutes outside Chicago and I, and, and we actually waited in line if it tells you we waited in line. And, and then we were like, like the last person to have only a certain amount to give out every day that we almost missed the cutoff. Like if we miss the cutoff after waiting in line, after waiting outside in the cold, but we made it and we got, you know, we got our first try it raw dura. And I will say, I want to, I'm definitely going to go back. 0 (22m 35s): It doesn't, you know, obviously last that long. So about a week, like 1 (22m 39s): Food is not supposed to last for a 0 (22m 42s): Telltale sign that something's, you know, good. Yeah. 1 (22m 45s): I saw an Instagram the other day, someone had happy birthday McDonald's meal and it was an 11 year old cheeseburger and fries that her daughter had used in a science project 11 years ago. And it looks exactly like, like she just had it last week. Like, you know, you would expect a week old burger to look a little dehydrated and maybe dry it up. If you found a frog under your car seat, you know what I mean? This is 11 years old and it looked like, 0 (23m 14s): So wait, they kept it for 11 1 (23m 16s): Years. They've had it for 11 years. So every year they wish it happy birthday. So, but it looks the same as it did 11 years ago. And so that tells us right there. I mean, do you think that that is good for your body to go through? Like it has so many preservatives and chemicals in it that it literally doesn't rot. And so now think about what that does to your gut. Our gut is alive and the gut bacteria that live there are there like, you know, so many of them there that have too, and now we're putting these chemicals in there that are keeping our burger fresh. Well, not fresh, but I would need it, but you know what I mean? 0 (23m 55s): No, I hear you. Yeah. I mean, that's a good way. Sort of a good rule of thumb is if it, if it, if it lasts more than a week, probably not good for you, 1 (24m 9s): 11 years sitting there, it's really not good for 0 (24m 13s): Yeah. Another, another highlight from the book that I wanted to talk about was your, you mentioned some about a hybrid fasting approach. I thought that was interesting. I think you talked about maybe like an every other day protocol. Well, what was the basis behind that? 1 (24m 33s): Yeah, cleanish is not a fasting book. It has one chapter on, on fasting because that's our, one of our body's best self-cleaning mechanisms. So I, you know, fasting is just one of them, but you know, I've lived in intermittent fasting lifestyle since 2014 and there's so many different ways you can structure it. There tends to be two main approaches, one time-restricted eating, which is the daily eating window approach. And that's what I do now. But there there's other approaches like alternate daily fasting. Some people might've heard of the every other day diet, that was a book that came out a while back also, you know, maybe five two, which was very popular in the UK, especially cause Dr. 1 (25m 15s): Michael Mosley lives in the UK and he was on TV, promoting the five, two diet. So if you're in, if you're in UK, you've probably heard of five, two. It wasn't quite as big here in America, but people tend to think of, you're either going to do time restricted eating and have a daily eating window, or you're going to do five, two or four, three or every other day, but you can actually mix them up together. You know, with five two, for example, there were two days where you fasted and the other five were eat. Normally, normally I'm in the, every other day diet or the alternate daily fasting. It was fast eight day fast, eight day. And he just kept doing that. So people think, well, you're either gonna do this or you're gonna do that, but you, you can put them together and kind of a hybrid approach. 1 (25m 60s): It's just wording that I, I came up with and there was no like scientific, like hybrid approach studies, right. But you know, you can, you can put them together. So the rule of thumb is based on the research. We know about alternate daily fasting. After every fast day or down day, they had, what's called an update where you are not having a restrictive eating day. You know, participants in the research ate about 125% of their daily caloric needs on their updates. So that's really important. They found that that kept the metabolism going strong. So if you have a full fast for, let's say 36 hours, the next day should be an update where you're eating, you know, more than your body needs because that that's, you know, what's protective of your metabolic rate in general, after you no longer fasting. 1 (26m 47s): But then the day after the up day, you might have, you know, a five hour eating window, you know, doing time restricted eating. And then maybe the day after that you have, you know, four hour eating window or a seven hour eating window or whatever, it's fine to switch it up. Then maybe you want to have another down day or another 36 hour fast. Then the next day would be an update. So you just keep sprinkling, sprinkling them all together. The only rule that I would really think people should follow is after any down day have an update, but then the other days can be what you prefer. So it's kind of a hybrid approach. And a lot of people really love it in my community. We have something that I don't follow it, but it's meal list Monday, one of, one of my group moderators, Roxy. 1 (27m 29s): She started having meal this Monday and kind of encouraging people to try a longer, fast on Monday, just if it felt good. So Mulas Monday became a thing and then Tuesday was an update, but not for everybody, just if you wanted to, then the rest of the week could be what you wanted, but I like to eat every day. So I'm not having a meal as Monday. I'm also not trying to lose weight. So 0 (27m 49s): Yeah, no, I mean, that's the thing is like, I get the question a lot. They're like, oh, well, you know, can I fast from this time to this time? And for the most part I say yes, like, or can I eat from this time, this time there's really not a perfect way. It's similar. Like what we talked about for eating, it's sort of a self experimentation when it comes to fasting. And I think most importantly is habit fit, like whatever your day is like that day or that, or whatever your week is like, like for example, we were just traveling and not the longest flight, whatever three-hour flight, but travel days are longer days. And it just worked out that I ended up just fasting the whole day and I just, I, in my mind, I had it, I'm like, you know, this will be a perfect time to do the next, you know, a little bit of an extended fast and I did want, and it was, it just worked out great. 0 (28m 37s): The fact that I was, you know, flying and in places where I probably shouldn't be eating their food anyways. So, so, you know, I think if you just, I think with fasting, I think if you just make it dictate what your day's like and whether that's activity level or if you're traveling, I think that's just a good rule of thumb to go by. And if you're really busy, I actually think it's a great time to do some, to do some fasting and then skip a meal or to 1 (29m 3s): It's true. You know, this, this week, you know, I, right now I'm, I'm at our little beach cottage. I'm here with my son, but two days before we came, I was recording podcasts until probably 6:00 PM. And so it was a very busy day. So I didn't eat until after 6:00 PM that day. Cause I was very busy. I don't like to eat and then record podcasts because I'm a little, not quite as mentally sharp as right after I eat. But so that day I didn't eat till till after six. And then when I came to the beach that day, we drove down my son and I it's a big three and a half, four. It was a four hour drive that day because they're doing some road construction on I 20 never fun. But so we sat in traffic for a while. And again, I was like, well, you know, we did our grocery shopping. 1 (29m 45s): So we were ready at the, at the, at the while we were going to be here and then we didn't get to dinner until it was again, probably six 30. So I had fasted until then. So then yesterday after having two days longer, fast as like, you know, I'm, I'm ready to open my window a little earlier. So we went and we had something around, around like lunchtime kind of a thing. And it just, so I'm gonna, you know, I had two meals yesterday and a longer, probably my eating window was nine hours. Whereas the days before it had been like, you know, one hour, yeah. It was like, you know, I opened it, I ate my meal and then I was done for the day for two days in a row. 1 (30m 25s): So it's all about being flexible and I felt fabulous, you know, fasting longer on those days. And then I also yesterday and my body was like, you know, it'd be good to open a little earlier today. I was a little hungrier. And so I needed to eat a little more, but you learn how to listen. Right, 0 (30m 41s): Right. You talk. Yeah. It's like in to, to hear the word intuitive eating. And I always say the more you fast, you become, you become more in tune with your hunger hormones and what true hunger is and what true satiety is 1 (30m 55s): True. I think, you know, all the constant eating, you know, that I used to do before fasting really disconnected me from my hunger and satiety hormones. I tried intuitive eating before I was an intermittent, fast, dry read all those books. I, you know, I told you I was reading everything back then. I read all of the books. And again, it made so much sense. I'm like, this is going to be my answer. So I put away my scale. I always ask myself, am I hungry? The answer was always, yes, whatever. I asked myself, are you hungry? So I would eat. And so I intuitively ate myself up to 210 pounds. And that was the most recent thing I had been doing. And then I got on the scale and I was 210 pounds. 1 (31m 36s): And I was like, okay, intuitive eating is not working for me. I am 0% intuitive at this point. But a funny thing happened the longer I did intermittent fasting. I consider myself to be an intuitive eater now, but it's within the paradigm of intermittent fasting. And the thing that makes me a little sad is that the intuitive eating community absolutely reject intermittent, fascinating as a whole like yes. In general, like a guy I can't think of. Can't think of the author's name. I can't off the top of my head that the book intuitive fasting. Have you heard of intuitive fasting? 0 (32m 12s): I think I know who you're talking about. Is it, 1 (32m 14s): Is it cold? Dr. 0 (32m 17s): Ryan? I don't know. 1 (32m 18s): Whatever. Anyway, Cole, I think is his last name. I'm sorry. I apologize. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but you know, I thought, oh, what a beautiful title, intuitive fasting. Because that's very much what I feel like I do. But then when it came out, it was just like the people came out of the woodwork and gave it terrible reviews. Hadn't even read it, but they're like, this is not intuitive. This is bad. This is dieting. And it was the intuitive eating community just slammed it. And it made me really sad that we could work together and realize that these two approaches to me really do work together. I've never felt more intuitive than I do now. So 0 (32m 58s): Yeah. It's interesting. And one of the things I found from your book as well, you talk about crowding out. And I really liked that as like, it's sort of a, it's like a little hack. I think that I talked with Dr. Ted name and recently on the podcast and you know, he mentioned like he, he eats junk sometimes, but he does it at the end. You know, like, you know, you always heard about dessert at the end, but like, like I think your example in the book maybe had to do with chips or something. 1 (33m 28s): Yeah. That's my thing. We've got ships here now. And I'm like, all right. I had a few in mind. We bought them for my son, but 0 (33m 35s): I forbid, you know, it was fun. We were on vacation. I took, you know, my wife and I, we're not, we don't have a ton of carbs and I, she was eating chips and I was just giving her a hard time, just, you know, and, and fun. And she actually cut her mouth on the chip. There's one head, she was bleeding. I said, that's what happens? The chips, 1 (33m 56s): I dropped a pina colada. I was at a conference in Arizona, in October standing next to a well-known diet guru, whose name you would probably recognize. And you know, she doesn't eat gluten dairy sugar. And I was having to subpoena colada just straight up Peter Galana and I dropped it on her feet. Right. Right there at the pool. Bam. It went everywhere. You know how that feels. And you're like, okay, it'd be sick, but she's like, you shouldn't have been drinking bad. Anyway, it was funny. And it was just not mad at me about it. But anyway, it's like revenge of the pina colada. 0 (34m 32s): Yeah. Right. You dropped a sugar drink on the sh on the, on the, 1 (34m 36s): The met is sugar purse. She's lovely though. So it was, 0 (34m 41s): But yeah, let's talk about crowding out what the philosophy behind that is. I'll let you explain it since 1 (34m 48s): I actually heard the wording, first of all, from, I went through the Institute for integrative nutrition, just because I wanted to really, you know, have I have a credential of some sort in the food and nutrition world and they have a health coaching program and I really liked their philosophy. So I was like, I'm going to go through this and see what they have to say. I loved it. 0 (35m 8s): I did two back. Did you go through 1 (35m 10s): Institute for integrative nutrition? I don't know if I knew that. Did I know that 0 (35m 14s): I did. I forget. 1 (35m 16s): I might. I, my brain is like full things come out. So anyway, but I loved their program because they're very much about, you know, bio-individuality also, and like, they talk about a lot of different things, but the whole idea of crowding out as something that really, that they used that wording as I was going through it I'm like, that really makes sense. And it's just, again, like you said, you know, have the dessert last eat the, the, we, we need to eat for nutrition. Our bodies need the nutrients. And I didn't even really, I mean, that might sound dumb. You know, we, we grew up hearing that, take your vitamin. That's all you need. You need these vitamins. But really when I was researching for cleanish, we need foods from plants, all those phytochemicals and all the nutrients, all the things that we're getting from our foods, we don't even know what they all are. 1 (36m 8s): So it's very important that we're putting in these highly nutritious foods, whatever that looks like to your dietary paradigm, you know, whether you're eating organ meats because your carnival or whatever that looks like the highly nutritious foods go in first, because that's what our bodies are looking for. You know, our bodies don't count calories. They look for nutrients, right. And so, you know, if I drove through the golden arches, you know, I have a story in fast Feaster P where one day I did, I had, I think I had a big Mac and I had fries and I had a Coke and that's, that's sufficient calories. That's a lot of energy right. Coming into your body. But I spent the whole rest of the evening wandering around the kitchen because I just wasn't satisfied. 1 (36m 52s): And I'm like, you know, this is really my body's saying that wasn't what we were looking for. You know? And so if you've ever eaten a lot of junk food and then just felt like you needed to keep eating that's because your body is not nutritionally satisfied. So when you focus on the highly nutritious foods, your body is going to be satisfied, then you can have in that, you know, at the end that ice cream or whatever, but you're not going to like want to eat the whole gallon because you're satisfied from the nutritious foods you have. 0 (37m 21s): Yeah. No, it's, it's great. And you know, you also talk about, well, I've talked about it before is prioritizing protein I think is, is, is really as the basis around each meal. Cause most people, and I even think I do to some degree under eat protein, you know, I'm active and I have a meal, the two meals, and I'm thinking to myself how much, you know, if I'm going to get a pound per body weight or per lean mass that's, let's just say that I weigh one 70. Let's say if I, my goal was 150 grams of protein. I mean, I got to really, really look hard to find, you know, that, that amount of protein and put that in my diet. And especially as you get older, because you don't absorb it as well either, 1 (38m 0s): You know, I I'm a big fan of the protein leverage hypothesis. I'm sure you're familiar with that one. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, again, like I just was talking about our bodies, let us know the protein leverage hypothesis states that you will keep eating. If you haven't had enough protein because your body is searching for the amount of protein that it needs. So if you haven't given it sufficient protein, you will keep eating and want more and more and more until you've met that protein need. And I love the whole idea that our body is wise and that we can listen to those signals. I was sick at the end, beginning of November, I had a fever and I just didn't much of an appetite. So I really couldn't eat a lot. Meat was not a practice to me at all. 1 (38m 41s): I was like, I just don't. I was eating like eggs, eggs sandwiches. I needed a different kind of food. But after I recovered, like for about four days when I was totally well and myself, again, all I wanted was meat. I was like, give me the meat. It's like, my body was like, okay, let's rebuild some of that. It was crazy. And I listened and I don't normally eat giant meat, heavy meals, but my body told me I needed it. And so just as my body said, you don't want to eat meat right now when I was sick, it just wasn't appetizing. Once I was better, my body's like, all right, let's have some meat. 0 (39m 13s): Yeah, no. And that's, that's a good point. And also you talk about in your book, you know, cleaning up the home, cleaning up the yard, you know, I really, and one thing I will say, I really like to about the book is it's, there's almost like, you know, there's places in here where you can sort of journal. Yeah. And, and I liked that because a while back I had a journal, I wrote a journal, you know, the intermittent fasting journal. But in here you can definitely fill out and put in your choices as far as what you're going to do. But you talk about cleaning out, cleaning out the house and the yard 1 (39m 46s): And your personal care products, all that is so important, you know, and that's the whole thing that really led me down the rabbit hole, being, being an intermittent faster and knowing that my body has that self cleaning going on every day. And I was like, well, what about all the other stuff that we're putting in? And of course, if you start talking about it with food, you know, we're not putting in the artificial flavors, artificial sweeteners, we're not putting in the preservatives, but what are you putting on your skin? Right. You know, and we all know that the skin health is a delivery system for drugs. For example, like we've all seen the patch, you know, birth control patches, the nicotine patch. We know that transdermal medication delivery. And I, my husband, when he was getting his PhD in medicinal chemistry, one of the professors that he worked with her specialty was transdermal medication applications that go in through the skin. 1 (40m 35s): So everything that you put on your skin goes into your skin. So when you're putting on your makeup and I started really, I have a friend, Melanie Avalon is my co-host with the intermittent fasting podcast. And she's been talking to me about this for years, you know, and even like the kind of makeup that she uses and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Then she sent me some, I'm like, okay, I'll wait. This is really good makeup. I like it. You know, it has to be good. That's, that's part of something I talk about in cleanish it has to work, you know, we're not going to change things up and they don't work, but I was using it because I liked it. And it seemed like a good thing. But the more I researched for cleanish, you know, endocrine disruptors in our personal care products, 0 (41m 16s): All over the place and the detergent and the depression, right. 1 (41m 21s): I start reading it and you're like, oh, this really is huge. And so, you know, I changed all my cleaning products at my house and, you know, we're all victims of something called greenwashing. I talk about this in cleanish and I didn't realize how I had been so duped by the greenwashing. You know, I thought I was making good choices. And I, cause I was buying products that, you know, had the green kind of labeling. And when I started looking into them, they had, I used an app. I talked about it in cleanish environmental working group has a great companion app that lets you put things in and they give it a score and tell you why it might not be a good choice. And the like this dish soap that I was easing that I thought was a good choice. 1 (42m 4s): I think I got like a D or something. And so like the blue brand that we're all familiar with it, they use to clean the animals of the oil spills that actually got a higher score than this one that I thought was, you know, so clean and good and 0 (42m 19s): Ewg.org, right. UWG out. Or you can check if the product sort of meets these standards 1 (42m 26s): And they have an apple on the app store and it's really good. And I use it all the time now, but once I'm the kind of person that likes to, you know, get my core brands that, you know, like with the makeup that I use, they are like, so like we do not put these things in our products, so I don't even have to research there's I just know they're good. If I buy anything they've got, I'm set. And the same with like certain, you know, cleaning brands, you know, like the one that I use right now, it comes with a concentrate that you make, all your other stuff out of, including, including your laundry detergent, it's super easy. And then you can, like, I use organic essential oils to give my counter spray a little peppermint. He smells so, you know, but what you don't want is all those fragrances that they put in, 0 (43m 9s): Right? You want to find the fragrance, free cleaning supplies and the detergents and things like that. 1 (43m 17s): But even more so than that, they can call something, you know, they, they use like, they can say it's unscented or whatever, but then they're actually putting in masking agents to cover up. And so that's like even worse. So you just really have to make sure. And that's why researching each thing, you know, like our laundry detergent that we were using, it was a free and clear kind of a thing. But still when I really looked into it, it wasn't, wasn't, it, it, things are easy changes to make, you know, I want my laundry to be clean and not to have all the toxins in it. And once you find a brand that that just works, it's easy and you don't even, you're not really giving up anything. 0 (43m 54s): Right? Yeah, yeah. No. And these are things that you got to sort of just be your own. Like you got to just be your own investigator on this stuff, because what you're going to hear in the mainstream is probably if it's in the mainstream and it's on TV, it's pro you probably don't want to buy it because I know that 1 (44m 9s): All right. That's very true. That's very true. And it just, once you, once you get into a good routine with it, and it's not necessarily going to be like super duper more expensive, because the one that, that I use now, again, it comes as a concentrate. The ones you're buying at the store are mostly water. So here I am with this concentrated, it ends up being pretty economical over time. And I know that I'm making good, good choice. And I also don't need, you know, 82 different cleaning products from my house. This one concentrate that I'm using does everything. 0 (44m 38s): My what's the 1 (44m 39s): Brand, if you don't mind. Well, I use branch basics, branch basics, branch basics is what I've been using. Cause they just work really well. You know, I actually reached out to him and said, can I try your product? Send them to me. They look really good. And they did. And I loved them. So yeah, branch basics and they're all incentive, but I add, you know, essential oils to give them the scent that I like. Like I like tea tree oil for my bathroom cleaner because it just gives it that, you know, a little bit of, of clean smell, but not in a, in a dangerous way. 0 (45m 13s): So what would you say, you know, with your book, you wrote it in three or four months, what would you say? The biggest messages that you want to get across to readers when it comes out in one January? 1 (45m 24s): Yeah. It's that it's a process and that perfection is not required. You know, I, I talk about it. It's a concept that I first heard years ago when my son was having issues with, with food sensitivities and chemical sensitivities called the bucket effect. And it makes a lot of sense. We all have a bucket, you know, this let's call this your toxic load bucket of what your body can handle. You know, as stuff goes into your bucket, your body can deal with it. You know, we've got all these self-cleaning mechanisms, but there comes a point where your personal bucket gets full and then if anything else goes in, it, it overflows. And now you're having all of these, you know, symptoms and problems and inflammation. So it's all about getting our, our personal bucket lower. So we're going to intentionally put less in, you're still going to come across toxins. 1 (46m 8s): You know, I went out to eat yesterday. I don't know what they've put in, what was in their food. You know, I'm sure there was stuff in there I wouldn't have at home. And that's okay. Cause I intentionally put less in through my personal care products and through my cleaning products and through what I eat. And so I also helped my body self clean through eating nutritious foods most of the time. And by doing intermittent fasting, I have a sauna, I jumped on a rebounder. I have a vibration plate, stimulates my lymphatic system, all those things that I do, you know, help my body self-clean. And so that helps lower, you know, your, your toxic load in your bucket. So you don't want to get to the point where you're just, you know, paralyzed by fear because you know, it can be scary when you start hearing about endocrine disruptors and all, you know, all these chemicals that are everywhere and, you know, babies being born with these chemicals in their cord blood, you're like, oh no, we need to live in a bubble, but that's also not possible. 1 (47m 7s): We're living in this modern world, but it's just a matter of intentionally lowering what goes in and helping your body through self-cleaning and knowing that every time you make, make a choice, you're, you're helping in the long run. 0 (47m 22s): Yeah. It's all those little choices that you make throughout the day. And that adds up over time. But it's again, like you say in the book, it's not about being perfect. Right. And, and you know, even like, you know, I, you know, you hear all these health experts come on. I had, and you know, like I said, Dr. 10 name and on, and you know, he's not a perfect eater. And I think that just needs, I think with Instagram and everyone's got a perfect body, you know, 1 (47m 45s): I do not have a perfect 0 (47m 48s): Mean either. Although I tried to, now 1 (47m 52s): I'm a 52 year old woman on the other side of the menopause. I'm just embracing who I am now at this point. And that's okay. 0 (47m 59s): Exactly. So embrace who you are, experiment as much as you can find what works for you and you'll come out on the other end, right. 1 (48m 9s): And really learn to trust yourself. You know, if you have a hunch that, you know, something works for you or doesn't work for you, go with that. You, you, you've got all the wisdom you need. You don't need me to tell you what to eat. You don't need me to tell you, although cleanish will help you figure it out for yourself. You know, it's very much at the end of it, you develop your own personal definition of cleanish eating and cleanish living. And then you choose the tools you want to implement into your life. Maybe one of them is intermittent fasting. Maybe it isn't, maybe one of them is, you know, upping your vegetable intake, or maybe you don't want to do that. 1 (48m 49s): It's just a matter of choosing the tools that work for you and feeling empowered. You know, that's, that's really what I want people to come away from. Anything that I write feeling empowered and not scared feeling that you've got the tools and you've got the wisdom and don't ask me what to eat or when to eat it, listen to your body. 0 (49m 10s): Well done. Well said, well, I'm looking forward to the book coming out and I appreciate you sending me this cause I'm going to keep going through it. So yeah. Coming out in, what is it? January? 1 (49m 22s): Oh, so excited. That's great. It's really seen from today. I can't believe how fast December is going by. 0 (49m 29s): Who's 1 (49m 30s): Going to wrap my Christmas presents. I'm usually all done by now and I'm not 0 (49m 32s): Done. I'm not, you'll make it happen. It always 1 (49m 35s): Happens. Right? Yeah. Well, that's true. 0 (49m 39s): All right, Jen. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This is great. Second time around and perfect timing just for your new book to come out. So again, I appreciate everything. 1 (49m 48s): Thank you for having me, Brian, as that you can guess I could probably talk about it for like five more hours, but 0 (49m 55s): I know you could. Yes. Well, thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the get lean clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.
