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episode #107

Interview with Dr. Ted Naiman: Satiety per Calorie, Protein to Energy Ratio and Is Obesity Contagious?

December 17, 2021 in Podcast


This week I welcomed Dr. Ted Naiman back to the GLEC podcast for a second go around! Ted is a board-certified Family Medicine physician in the department of Primary Care at a leading major medical center in Seattle. His research and medical practice are focused on the practical implementation of diet and exercise for health optimization.

0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): It turns out that there's this protein leverage phenomenon where humans basically eat until they get enough protein. So protein gives you way higher satiety calorie. And then the obesity epidemic is mostly from protein dilution. We have all these refined carbs and refined fats, sugar and oil. Mostly you dump a bunch of sugar and oil into your food supply and it dilutes the hell out of proteins. So now everyone's eating like a 12 and a half percent protein diet instead of, you know, 33% like hunter-gatherers. So the, the whole point of the PE diet is to prioritize protein much, much, much higher at the expense of lowering carbs and fats, especially refined carbs and refined fats that dilute protein really bad. 1 (44s): And it's just looking at your whole diet from this protein versus non protein energy lens. 0 (50s): Hello, and welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was in five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Dr. Ted it he's a board certified family medicine physician in the department of primary care at a leading major medical center in Seattle. His research and medical practice are focused on the practical implementation of diet and exercise for health optimization. We discussed his protein energy calculator, how to avoid over eating junk food, the best way to work out in a short period of time, the importance of protein and how to know the energy density and foods to help you lean out. 0 (1m 43s): This was my second interview with Dr. Ted Naiman. I really enjoyed it. I hope you do too. And thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. And second time around, I got Dr. Ted name and welcome to the show. 1 (2m 1s): Hey, thanks for having me, man. The podcasts must be really slow that you have me back out again. 0 (2m 8s): Not at all. I'm glad to have you back. God. I think you were the most downloaded episode I've had in my year. I've been podcasting. I just had my hundredth anniversary and thank you. Yeah. So it goes fast, but yeah, I'm definitely excited to have you back on and just talk, shop and figure we can get into, you know, a little bit of some of the stuff that we talked about last time. Obviously I know, you know, with PE diet and everything like that, and you mentioned you're doing some work with diet doctor, what type of, what type of collaborations are you doing with them? 1 (2m 45s): Yeah, so diet doctor is doing some very cool stuff right now. They're working on an app. That's super awesome. And they're also just trying to branch out a little bit more in the direction I'm going in, which is satiety per calorie. So looking at things like a higher protein, lower energy density, it's not just quite so like uni, polar and focal carbs are bad type thing. You know what I mean? It's a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more, you know, basically just looking at more than just carbohydrate content. 0 (3m 22s): Gotcha. And maybe so people, obviously you came on my podcast. God, it's been almost maybe a year. Maybe give people a little bit of a background. I know you're a health professional in what state are you 1 (3m 33s): In? I'm in Washington. I'm in the Seattle area. 0 (3m 36s): Sailor. Okay. And how long have you been practicing for him? 1 (3m 40s): I got out of residency 21 years ago. Yeah. So I'm like as old as dirt. Yeah. We didn't have electricity and stuff like that. The way you youngsters do. 0 (3m 55s): All right. And then, so you've had your own, is it, are you by yourself, your own practice? Are you with someone else or, 1 (4m 1s): Oh no. I'm in a huge multi-specialty organization with 400 something doctors, one of the larger major hospital-based multi-specialty groups in downtown Seattle. And so I'm just part of their primary care department and I'm just punching a clock basically for a really big hospital system. And I, and I work in a satellite with dozens of doctors and lots of specialists and that kind of thing. 0 (4m 28s): Okay. And I'm just curious, so 20 years of practice, what, what has changed in your mind and what type of things are you starting to see with a lot of your patients and stuff? 1 (4m 39s): Yeah, I mean, w when I first started out, honestly, what we were taught is that most of your chronic diseases, like your obesity type two diabetes and your autoimmune diseases and all these things are just genetic, right? So like, if both of your parents are overweight, you're going to be overweight. If both of your parents are diabetic, you're going to be diabetic. If everyone had auto-immune disease, you're gonna have autoimmune disease. And now what I've realized is that genetics kind of loads the gun, but your environment completely pulls the trigger. And even if, you know, every relative you've got is obese and diabetic and has some sort of chronic degenerative disease, you could completely avoid that. 1 (5m 24s): If you can change your environment. Now, if you have the genetics for diabetes and obesity and you're in the same environment and by environment, I basically mean food environment, as your relatives who have obesity and diabetes, you're going to get it too, but you can change your environment. And it's mostly food choice that we're talking about and exercise choice, and you can avoid all of that. Like, that's still bad genetics, but you can come, it does not have to happen to you. So that's been the big revelation for me in 20 years is that even if you have bad genetics, you can overcome that and sidestep a lot of the stuff that runs in your family, just with diet and exercise. 1 (6m 5s): And that's just, you know, that's my huge focus. That's my major message. 0 (6m 10s): Yeah. Because you know, a lot of times you see that, like, people are just a product of their environment. And I think it's sort of sad in a sense that you'll see a, you know, a kid who's 10, 12 years old and he's obese. And then you're like, well, you see his parents and same thing. And it's like, well, he didn't have much of a choice in that matter. You know, as you get older, you can move out. You can, you know, do your own thing, but you know, you sort of feel bad for these kids that are just getting obese earlier and earlier. Are you seeing that with families and stuff? 1 (6m 40s): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a complete nightmare, you know, childhood diabetes doubled during the pandemic. And when we're just every age category, obesity continues to just accelerate upward. It has not had any kind of inflection point. It's still just steadily climbing with no end in sight for, for all ages. And it's growing really fast in the child and adolescent age range. So it's just some scary stuff. And like, we're, it's just getting worse and worse. It's kind of snowballing. 0 (7m 15s): Yeah. I mean, I feel like with the pandemic, people went one way or the other, almost like there's some people who really took it as a, as a way to get shape. And part of it was to just cooking for themselves. Right. That can go a long way. And then other people unfortunately went the, went the other way and, you know, just ate worse and put on weight. 1 (7m 37s): Yeah. The majority of people got worse. So the average adult American gained 13 pounds and most of our clients just really did gain weight more diabetic, more cardio-metabolic dysfunction. But then, like you said, there's a few outliers who are like, oh wow, I'm just gonna, you know, do something different. Now that I'm at home all day long, I'm just gonna work out and make my own food. And some people, you know, just a rose, like a Phoenix from the ashes ripped and jacked, like it's a very small percentage, but you can absolutely do that. And it really just comes down to diet and exercise. It's the only difference between the people who got better and the people who got worse. 0 (8m 21s): Yeah. And I reason I said that I saw actually a few of my friends, I could tell, like they, they, they lost weight. They look much better and they were cooking for themselves. And you know, if you're going out to eat all the time, it's not, that's not a good recipe for trying to lose weight. 1 (8m 37s): Yeah. I, it just automatically makes it harder. All the can be done. There are people out there who eat out all the time and they're just choosing the healthiest thing on the menu. Every time they're getting the salad, they're putting extra lean protein on top of it, they're drinking a non caloric beverage and you could actually go, I can go to any fast food restaurant on earth or any restaurant and come out with something healthy. Like it's, you absolutely can do that. But most people don't, they just order whatever sounds the tastiest to them. And that's food choice is everything. And most people are choosing foods that sound tasty. 1 (9m 18s): And 0 (9m 20s): I do. And I do agree. I think the only downside to even if you pick something that may be, you know, let's just say, it depends what they're cooking in too. Right. That can obviously play a role in, you know, obviously I would imagine 95% of restaurants cook in vegetable oil, it's the cheapest and easiest way to do it. Right, right, 1 (9m 39s): Right. 0 (9m 40s): I actually, I always tell my clients to ask for butter, ask if they could cook it in butter. And it's an, it's an easy request. And you'd imagine most restaurants have, they might have not, not have grass fed butter, but they, I would imagine they have butter. 1 (9m 56s): Yeah. I mean, they probably do, but maybe not. I mean, every once in a while you get a restaurant where, 0 (10m 3s): You know, they don't 1 (10m 4s): Have like, like, you know, yours and coffee and they just bring you the little creative artificial creamer and, you know, they'll have half and half anywhere in that place or anything like that. So maybe not 0 (10m 16s): On that note, let's talk a little bit about, I, it was interesting. I was looking at that your protein, energy calculator, which I think is pretty cool on your, on your website. I think the website's, well, there, it goes to a separate website, protein percent.com. If you want to check out this, this calculator, but it's cool. You can also search by foods and see sort of the macro counts of those foods. And then how much energy, maybe just to give people a little bit of background of, of, you know, what your theme is regarding, you know, protein and energy and, and, you know, so people have a better idea of what that is, 1 (10m 52s): Right? Absolutely. Right. So we've got the three basic macronutrients, protein, carbs, and fats. And as it turns out, carbs and fats are really similar. They're just chains of carbons with high energy bonds. And it's really just solar energy stored by plants as these carbon chains, these high energy, carbon chains and proteins completely different. It's centered around a nitrogen molecule, which plants have to absorb nitrogen and mineral form from the soil. And protein is used structurally in your body. So you use protein for a lot of the structure and the function in your body, and you don't really burn a lot of it for energy. And then you're just constantly burning carbs or fats for energy by breaking apart the carbons off the change in your mitochondria. 1 (11m 38s): And that's how we get all our energy to survive. So you can kind of look at your diet in a protein versus non protein energy lens, where it's like protein versus carbs and fats and carbs. And fats are super interchangeable where humans could live on a, you know, 0% carb diet, no problem. You can live on a 10% fat diet, no problem. A lot of Seesaw action there, it's protein. That's more crucial. And it turns out that there's this protein leverage phenomenon where humans basically eat until they get enough protein. So protein gives you way higher satiety calorie. And then the obesity epidemic is mostly from protein dilution. 1 (12m 21s): We have all these refined carbs and refined fats, sugars, and oil. Mostly you dump a bunch of sugar and oil into your food supply and it dilutes the hell out of proteins. So now everyone's eating like a 12 and a half percent protein diet instead of, you know, 33% like hydro gathers. So the, the whole point of the PE diet is to prioritize protein much, much, much higher at the expense of lowering carbs and fats, especially refined carbs and refined fats that dilute protein really bad. And it's just looking at your whole diet from this protein versus non protein energy lens. And then, like you said, if you go to the protein percent.com, you can just see a really nice graphical snapshot of foods that are high in protein versus any energy and foods that are low. 1 (13m 4s): First, the lowest is sugar and oil, and the highest would be, you know, egg whites or a white fish or something that's, you know, mostly protein. And it's just a really good way of like, thinking about your diet, you know, here's where you're at on this protein to energy ratio or protein percentage. And if you just tweak that up a little bit, you literally have higher satiety with a lower caloric intake. You automatically eat less and you, your body weight just goes down. 0 (13m 32s): Yeah. And I love the graphics. And my question would be like, for example, egg whites, high protein to, well, how, how would you, I guess my thought is like, you want to have some fat too, right? If you want, right. So like, if you're going to just having egg whites all day, that's probably not the healthiest thing you want to do. You want to have the yolk? What are your thoughts around that? So how do you balance that out? 1 (14m 0s): Absolutely. So everything in life is on this U shaped curve, right? Protein percent is on a U shaped curve where if you're really low on protein percent, you're going to massively overeat non-protein calories to get enough protein to not be hungry. You know, if you're eating French fries, which are potatoes in oil, there are 6% protein. You have to eat like 50 pounds of French fries to get enough protein to not be hungry. So you want to raise a protein percent and you're, you're trying to find the top of the U shaped curve. If you go too high, like egg whites are all the way around the U shaped curve. On the other side, you try to get a hundred percent protein, just egg whites. You're basically going to be out of your mind, starving at all times. And you'll just basically die of energy starvation. 1 (14m 43s): So you're trying to find the sweet spot right in the center, you know, and you know, the worldwide hunter gout or macronutrient estimate is right at about 33% protein, which is amazing sweet spot. Like, oh, we have studies showing that if you can get protein to 30% of your calories, you're going to cure it. Every pre-diabetic out there. And this is basically because you just can't overeat these foods, you're just full, you're done. You're done eating, you know what I mean? So, so the goal isn't to go all the way to a hundred percent protein, which is completely unsustainable and horrible, and you can't just eat egg whites, and you're gonna like hate life and then die right afterwards. 1 (15m 26s): So you, you, you want to find out where you're at on that. You and most people are at 12 and a half percent and then dial it up. So you're at the top, right? It's not going to be all egg whites. It's going to be two eggs and two egg whites. It's going to be some Turkey bacon instead of regular bacon. It's going to be cooking with just a little bit of butter instead of like a whole stick of butter. It's going to be eating, you know, carbs from like salad instead of carbs from like pretzels and chips. You know what I mean? It's going to be a sort of low carb and low fat and prioritizing protein to get yourself at this like sweet spot, this kind of center of the, of you 0 (16m 9s): Got it. Okay. Yeah. That explains it. Cause I'm looking at this graph and I'm like all the way at the top, you see whey protein and egg whites, I'm thinking, well, that can probably be good in some situations, but like you said, it's, it's finding that balance, right? 1 (16m 21s): And if you're looking@proteinpercent.com, you kind of want to be at a 45 degree angle that 1.0 a PE ratio, that's kind of your goal. You can go much more extreme for very short periods of time. If you're trying to do like a produce brand modified fast and lose fat really fast, that's not a good idea. Cause fat, rapid fat loss is, is never quite as good. You're always going to lose a little more lean mass and it's always going to be a little bit less easy to sustain it afterwards. You want it, you do want to eat in such a way that you enjoy your food. You're gradually losing weight. Most of what you're losing is pure fat and you're going to keep it off and sustain it. So you just want to find out where you're at and then go up a little bit and you also want to do progressive overload, just like just like lifting weights. 1 (17m 8s): You know, you wouldn't just take a total noob and put like 500 pounds on the bar and have him bench that right. You find out what they can bench. And then you add, you know, five pound plate on each side or some sort of micro loading. And you're doing the same thing with approaching the energy ratio of your diet. Okay. Here's where you're at eating like corn flakes and bacon. Right. And you're just going to raise that up a little bit by eating oatmeal and Turkey bacon. And then maybe you're going to go even a little bit higher with, you know, some egg whites and some whey powder or something like that, you know, but you're not going to go straight to a hundred percent. 0 (17m 47s): Right. Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm looking I'm God, I'm like I've ribeye steak and eggs quite a bit. And that's probably about a good sweet spot to be at. 1 (17m 55s): That's a super good sweet spot. Like my very favorite like maintenance on would just be, you know, steak and eggs. That's 30% protein. That's great. But then if you're trying to lose weight, you know, maybe you eat a leaner steak, like some sirloin, maybe you eat two eggs and two egg whites. Maybe you cook it all in a little bit less butter. Maybe you throw in some green vegetables, which have a super high pregnant energy ratio. And you're doing all these little tweaks, more protein, more fiber, less net carbs, less fat. And you're just slightly improving these ratios. And then you're just going to automatically eat less calories. 0 (18m 31s): Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. The couple of nights ago we had like a Turkey tacos and I don't have a lot of ground Turkey and like, it was good, but, but I'm like, God, this just doesn't fill me up. Like a ribeye. It fills me up. I felt like I needed to. And that would be the thing is like, if you're always having li like that's actually a lot of clients of mine. They're like, I, I listened to what they're eating on a daily basis and they're doing chicken with salad and then Turkey was salad. I'm like, well maybe try adding in a little bit of fats. They're maybe adding some avocado because wouldn't you agree if you're just having, like we mentioned before, but if you're just having chicken with salad that might not be optimal. 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. The, I mean that might be too high and then you're hungry later. So absolutely. You might need a little bit more carbs, a little bit more fat. And again, you, you might want to just incrementally go up from where you were before. So it's not all, it's not about getting a hundred percent ready. It's about like going slightly north and higher than the last time to coach a coach, Greg he's, you know, so you want to be like harder than last time, but you don't want to go to a hundred percent because that's not sustainable and you're not going to like your food. And like you said, to, some people might need to throw in a, an avocado or something. And for me, when you're adding carbs and fats, you, you kind of want to get the lowest energy density, carbs and thoughts. 1 (19m 58s): You can like an avocado is amazing, right? A hundred grams of avocado is only 10 or 15 grams of fat. But if you pour it in oil, a hundred grams, oil is a hundred grams of fat. So you're getting like, you know, five times more calories for the same weight in volume. You're just not going to get the same society for calorie. The avocado is going to beat the oil all day long. Same thing with Karak. He wants your low energy density, your carbs. You know, you don't want your berries where, you know, a hundred gram to berries is five or 10 grams of carbs instead of sugar, where a hundred grams of sugar is a hundred grams of carbs. And it's a way where, you know, 10 times more calories. 1 (20m 38s): So it's, so I love adding in carbs and fats, if you have unsustainably high protein percent, but then gaining the lowest energy density, carbon Fest, you can, so you get to eat more weight and volume for less calories, and you're just automatically fuller at a lower clerk intake. So it's kind of a two phase thing I'm cranking of the protein percent. And then also reducing the energy density of your carbs fats. You're not approaching energy, which is kind of one of the things I'm working on. Now, if you look at protein, present.com, this is sort of my original concept for the PE diet. Now I'm working on more of a satiety for calorie mindset. 1 (21m 20s): And in fact, if you go to tidy per calorie.com or satiety score.com, you can see my new calculator, which has pro Dever sent on the Y axis energy density on the X axis. And you can kind of see, oh, Hey, avocado is way better for society than oil. Even though they're both fat because with the avocado, you get to eat, you know, five times more weight in volume in water and fiber and micronutrients and all this stuff versus oil, which is just literally just calories. 0 (21m 51s): Oh, so we got a new calculator. Yeah. 1 (21m 53s): Check it out. It's a tiny score dot. 0 (21m 55s): It's a tidy squirt at home. What about thoughts on overcome? Is it, is it tough to over consume protein? 1 (22m 6s): You, you basically can't do it. Like you literally cannot eat. Quote-unquote too much protein. No one can do that. You physically can't do it. It's basically it can't happen. 0 (22m 18s): And, and what are your thoughts around, you know, like stimulating M tour and, and then like, as far as like balancing that out, maybe with some fasting and things like that, 1 (22m 30s): Mariah, right? So you, you have to have animal some, some anabolism some catabolism you have to stimulate mTOR and then not stimulate NPR. You have to be eating and fasting and all these things have to cycle. If you just said, I'm never going to stimulate MTR, you die. You'll absolutely die. So it has to be a balance has to be a yin yang, protein stimulates inventory. 0 (22m 55s): Sure. And carbs do too. Right. 1 (22m 58s): And fat does too. Anything you eat is going to stimulate mTOR. That's all anabolic and then fasting or exercise or anything. That's hydrochloric is going to be the opposite. And you do want to balance those. And it, it kind of comes down to calories in calories, out in a way. So, but what happens is if your calories are mostly protein, you're gonna be prioritized and your lean mass, your fat mass, if your calories are just carbs and fats, you're going to be prioritizing your fat mass over your lean mass. You know what I mean? So if you're trying to balance anabolism and catabolism, and also the best body composition, you really want to focus on protein and then worrying that protein stimulates mTOR is kind of not helpful because what really stimulates them to are, is being over fat 24 hours a day and having chronically high insulin levels. 1 (23m 55s): So anyone who's over fat is just gonna have way too many way, too much energy in their bloodstream at all times, the free fatty acids and triglycerides glucose, it's all way higher in your circulation because it has no place to go. So over fatness is the very, very worst for, you know, this sort of inventory stimulation that everyone's afraid of. That's what hybrid insulin hyperinsulinemia is. It's just pure over fatness. You're basically over fat, you filled your fat cells. Fat has no place to go in your circulation. That's where your triglycerides are always high and your free fatty acids are always high. And your insulin's high because it's just trying to clear the fields out of your bloodstream. And that is going to massively increase your risk for cancer and heart attacks and cardiovascular events and every chronic degenerative disease you could think of. 1 (24m 43s): And so the very, very worst thing of all is just pure over fatness. And honestly, over the past 20 years of my career, I used to think, oh, wow, people got diabetic because they ate too many carbs or, you know, it was some specific element of their diet. Now I realize it's really just being over fat, full stop period. Like every bad thing you can think of all of your metabolic syndrome is just pure over fatness. And that gives you your high blood pressure, your high triglycerides in your pre-diabetes and then your diabetes and every auto-immune disease that's associated with hyperinsulinemia and all your cancer risks and cardio-metabolic diseases that are associated with high insulin are really just all a hundred percent downstream of over fatness. 1 (25m 32s): Like literally overfilling your fat cells and having no good place to put fat. And so, you know, people who are super thin and all their fat cells are only half full may have tons of room to store fat. You know, in the separate case layer, they, they never have high triglycerides cause they can eat a bunch of food and their fat souls just suck it right out of their bloodstream. So all of their fields are really low. Their insulin's really low all the time, cause there's no extra fields in their bloodstream, their blood sugar triglycerides, their pre fatty acids everything's really, really low. Their cancer risk goes way down their cardiovascular risks go way down. And it's literally about just being fatter or thinner period. 1 (26m 15s): And so the whole goal for body composition for health is to basically get more lean mass and less fat mass. And the way you get theater is to eat foods with higher satiety per calorie. And the way you get more lean mass and less fat mass is to prioritize protein over non-protein energy. And these all kind of dovetails together. You know, you eat a higher protein diet, you're gonna get a better lean mass to fat mass ratio. And then if you work on society for calorie, with a higher protein, higher fiber, higher water, lower carbs, aren't fat, you're basically gonna automatically stop eating at lower caloric intake. You're gonna be thinner and all of these numbers down and all your risks go down and it's so the, the longer I do this, the more, it just morphs into this one big picture where you're just trying to be thinner and basically have recom higher lean mass, lower fat mix. 0 (27m 11s): Yeah. Nicely said. And what would we say? You know, you talk about individuals being can be somewhat of a product of their environment, obviously comes down to that person making choices on a day-to-day basis. But we see that a lot that if you're hanging out with people who have these certain habits, you're going to have those habits as well. I mean, it could be as something as, you know, you have a patient, maybe just getting them to, to be around healthier individuals. And I mean, that can go a long way as well. Right? Okay. 1 (27m 43s): Yeah. This is a terrible thing to say, and this is not going to be popular and I'm going to get canceled for saying it, but obesity is literally contagious. Like it's literally contagious and it's because humans kind of follow these herd mentalities in these group mentalities. And if you're in a household where everyone's just super overweight and they're basically just ordering Uber eats all day long and they just eat, you know, just pizza and donuts and a chocolate chip frappe, ti chinos, and they never exercise. And they literally just glued to the couch all day. You're going to be more likely to be that way, whether you want to or not, whether you realize it or not, it's just going to happen. That's human nature. 1 (28m 24s): That's totally kind of normal kind of natural. And so you've got two options, option one. And this is the easy one is to try to surround yourself with people who are all way healthier than you. You know what I mean? I want everybody around me to be just completely ripped in Jack. They're like, they've got their digital scale, weighing out their skinless chicken breast. And they're like, basically either doing cardio or lifting weights all day long, like it I'm going to be like, oh wow, I gotta go do some cardio. You know what I mean? So the, the hard one is to just be the example for everyone else. You're like, you know what everyone else is just watching TV and eating piece of it. 1 (29m 6s): I'm actually going to get on the Peloton and do an hour of hard cardio. And then I'm going to eat like a salad with a piece of fish on top of it. And you could actually kind of drag people towards you, but that's a real uphill battle. It's really, really hard. It it's, so it's brutal, you know, but, but that's a, that's what more people need to do. And it's not easy. 0 (29m 31s): Yeah. You know, I coach a high school kids in golf and the seniors are all leaving. And I always think about, you know, what would be some good advice to tell those seniors that I said, you know, when going into college, make sure you surround yourself with the right types of people. People who, you know, obviously have good morals, but you know, maybe are working out and are healthy because that's just going to lead to you doing those things as well. And you know, obviously in society we could all use, you know, surround ourselves with better people. It'll make, you know, the whole world better in a sense. 1 (30m 3s): Yeah. I mean, if, if you can surround yourself with better people and if you can't try to be the better person for them, which is, yeah, that's a, 0 (30m 11s): That's a tough one. And part of it is cleaning out the pantry. I mean, I have people who come to me and they're like, well, you know, I snacked on this last time. Like, well, how did it get there? You know, like, you know, I think the simple, easy thing to do is clean out your pantry of all the things that we've, you know, you're talking about the, the sugars, the flowers, the oils that are causing you to go. Cause we all find fault. I mean, myself included, you know, we'll, we'll host a couple of people over for, for like dessert and, you know, you'll get stuff that I probably don't want to have on a daily basis. And we'll always have like leftovers, whatever. Let's just say it's cookies. And I'm like, just, I just told my wife, just get that out of the house after they're done. 0 (30m 55s): Like give it to someone because if it's in the house, I mean, as good as I am. And you know, I'm sure you as well, Dr. Ted, like you sometimes fall, fall victim to that stuff. And if it's in the house, you're, you're more prone to having it. 1 (31m 8s): Absolutely. I'm like, that's just the way humans are wired. Like if there's some super tasty food right in front of you, you are definitely going to eat it. And it's, so it does really start with food procurement and like buying food. Like that's how that food got there. And that does make it really, really hard for the one person in the household who's trying to do better when nobody else's cause that foods just around you all the time. And that's really, really hard. There's basically always some kind of junk food in my house. And what I try to do 0 (31m 45s): Is what 1 (31m 47s): I tried. Oh yeah. I buy some of it. You know, my family, like, you know, everybody's pretty fricking healthy in our household, but there's always some sort of junk food routes for sure. And what I try to do is, is front-load a bunch of healthy stuff. So then I just eat a little bit of it. You know what I mean? Like if I've gone out of my way to eat my, you know, my 0 (32m 14s): Mindset 1 (32m 15s): And my wild salmon and my salad and like all this stuff, okay. Then I can just eat like one donut or one cookie or whatever. And that's, that's pretty much how I'm running it. It's about 90% clean and then 10% just pure garbage where I literally do eat. 0 (32m 35s): I'm good that we're talking about. It's good that we're talking about this because I do think that if you know, you listen to podcasts or you listen to stuff like it, you don't want to see it. It's not about being perfect, you know? 1 (32m 46s): Hell no. Yeah, no, I'm definitely eating junk, but I, but I just try to crowded out by front loading the better stuff. And then I can get by with eating a lot less of it. And that's just like a, just a hack, which I think is a helpful in real life, you know? Cause there's always going to be crap food around for sure. I like, I walk into work and it's like a minefield of like bagels and muffins and crackers. 0 (33m 14s): Well, cause people bring everything they don't want from the house. Probably. 1 (33m 17s): Yeah. Yeah. The break room at work is just like a, just junk food nightmare. Basically. Everyone just offloads all their crap from home there. Yeah. 0 (33m 26s): Right. Well, and also, you know, I, what I never understood is like, you know, you go to some of these hospitals and the vending machines are so bad. It's like, why don't we get some healthy, like at least better options for vending machines and a lot of these facilities. 1 (33m 41s): Yeah. It's brutal. 0 (33m 43s): Yeah. So part of the part of all of this is just not having it in the house. And like you said, I think that's a good hack. Is front load, everything that's healthy. It's like you go out to dinner, you don't want to just scrap for that piece of bread. I always tell them, I always tell my clients, tell them not even to bring the bread you want to front load with, you know, better nutritious, you know, lower glycemic foods that aren't going to like spike your blood sugar insulin levels. Right? 1 (34m 7s): Yeah. And we have a lot of studies that, that actually point to what you can do on a practical level. So there are these protein preload studies where if you eat protein and then you go to a buffet two hours later, you're literally going to eat way less calories. If you eat super low energy and food, like if you start your meal with a soup or a salad, you will literally eat less calories. And this is evidence-based and we have studies proving this. And so anytime you can front load with a high protein food or low energy density food, a soup salad, a protein shake, something like that. If you're going to go out to an event where there's just tons of junk food or a buffet or something, if you, you know, preload with like a protein shake or a salad or something like that, you are going to literally eat less calories. 1 (34m 59s): And it definitely works. And that's a really practical hack. 0 (35m 3s): Yeah. It's like never go to the store with an empty stuff. Oh yeah. 1 (35m 7s): That's the worst, you know, it's just like donuts and chips, which is honestly one of the problems I have with extended fasting because people just get so hungry, they refill it on like a whole dark peanut butter and some sort of low protein food. That's the way we're wired. You get really hungry. You just see the highest energy density thing you can find. And so I have people like losing and then gaining and losing game the same five pounds forever with if they're trying to drive most of their health with a fasting approach. And 0 (35m 40s): Yes, I do agree. Although I will say that once you get acclimated to fasting and been doing it for, let's just say years, I actually find that I get less hungry a lot of times, you know, if I, if I do, if I'm as I'm fasting, but yes. If you're just starting out fasting, I do agree. I mean, you're, you know, the thought is that you're going to Gorge if you do like a longer, fast, but I always tell people to sort of ease your way into it, just like anything else. And you'll just, your body will be more acclimated obviously using ketones and things like that for energy. 1 (36m 11s): Absolutely. And then the fast things also on this U shaped curve, and you're trying to find the sweet spot and fasting is also something you want to just incrementally progress rather than just like, boom. I'm not going to eat for a week. So yeah, you're absolutely right. I totally agree. 0 (36m 26s): Any, any thoughts on raw milk? I actually, I was curious to ask you, because my wife and I went this weekend to the farm, it's like an hour away and there was a line out the door for this raw milk and they only have a certain amount every morning. And we just got like the last two people to get, to get the raw milk. And I've been having it over the last years and I'm telling you, you know, I was never a big dairy person or a milk person, but I mean, once you have this, it's like, I wouldn't go anywhere else. Do you have any thoughts around that? Have you ever tried it? 1 (36m 56s): Oh wow. Okay. So honestly I've never had it. I never sought it out. I would probably have to go out of my way to get some, and I just don't know if it's magical enough for me to want to go to that trouble. I'm also just old fashioned enough as a doctor to think the pasteurization is a pretty good idea. Cause I've seen people just get deathly ill with, you know, Campylobacter and salmonella Shigella and Eco-Line all these nasty, horrific bacterial infections. And I, especially like infants or young people that have lower stomach acid and pH, and they're getting these weird, you know, botulism and stuff. And so I'm all fashioned enough to think, oh, Hey, maybe pasteurization is good from a public health point of view. 1 (37m 39s): And so I really haven't branched out into the raw milk zone. Cause I'm not sure if the, a risk to benefit ratio, like if it was like the, the elixir of the gods, like a nectar of health, just had some really objectively thing and made me way healthier. I might seek it out. But like at this point in my life, you know, I'm 50 and I've never had it. So I'm probably okay. 0 (38m 4s): Yeah. Yeah, no, I heard it. I heard it. I had to try it. I've been I've I keep reading about and hearing about it here there. I think it, I think the thing is if you get it from a note, a good source, obviously there's risks for anything, right. I mean, I could have sushi tomorrow and get some type of, you know, some type of salmonella or whatever, but either way, I just was curious why don't we change notes and touch a little bit about routine and micro workouts is something I know you're big into. How were your workouts look in these days? I know we were talking last time. A lot of body weight stuff. I know that's in the book doing body weight workouts. Yeah. What are you up to as far as workouts? 1 (38m 42s): Yeah, I still it's still the same thing. You know, most of the book is just trying to solve the exercise equation for the shortest time investment. Right? Like cranking up the intensity is so you don't need as much time since timing and intensity are kind of on this Seesaw. So the book was like, okay, max out the intensity. And then you can just work out for a couple of minutes. And I'm still kind of like in that realm, I'm basically doing body weight resistance, just, you know, one set a day, really high intensity, just kind of maxing out on push-pull legs and that's 0 (39m 20s): The works stick with it. Right. You know, 1 (39m 23s): I spent a lot of time on resistance, exercise cardio. I do more like, you know, I try to hit walk 10,000 steps a day, but then I'm also trying to do some, all outs brands for like, you know, 30 seconds or something. So I'm trying to hit every, you know, rep range on the cardio where I'm doing some low intensity, some moderate touch use some high intensity. But I think the take home message in the book is that, you know, if you crave, you intend to get up, you can be done exercising in a really short period of time. Yeah. I think some people like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0 (39m 60s): No, I like it. I mean, if it works, why change it? I mean, I'm sort of the same way I've gone to more of like 20, 30 minute workouts and just hit it hard. And, and actually what I added this past few months ago was the, this rogue echo bike might be something you might like, but it's those heavy-duty ones you see on CrossFit with the fans. And let me tell you, like right now I literally do four sets of 15 seconds all out. And I rest for about a minute and a half between. And you know, you try to rest to the point where you're pretty much recovered and ready to just give that same sustainable effort each time when the effort starts going down, then you know, you're not resting enough. 0 (40m 43s): Yeah. 1 (40m 43s): I love that. 0 (40m 44s): You know, it's, it's killer. And I put it in my basement and I, I talked to Brad Kearns every once in a while and he touches a lot on this stuff. So I wanted away, obviously sprinting might be ideal, but I F I feel like, especially as you get older, you know, I'm 41. Like, I dunno if I want to go out and sprint and that, you know, I could do it, but, you know, I think just like you said, the risk reward about regarding injury. I, you know, I want to try to keep an eye out for that. 1 (41m 13s): Yeah. I love those airbikes because you can just pump so much wattage into it and such a tiny amount of time. It's just, it's like you just max out in red line, every mitochondria in your body all at once. And I love that. I think that's really great. I don't have one of the, I have a concept rower and, and I'll do like a one minute or a hundred meter or some sort of super all out fair, which is, you know, kind of the same idea. But yeah, I love, I love anything like that, where you can just really pump out the highest wattage you can generate in the shortest amount of time. I think that's, I think that's good for you. I mean, I really do think you want to hit every range on cardio. 1 (41m 56s): You want to do some zone to Maffetone, you know, steady state, but you want to just do some walking, a lot of blocking, but then man, you hop on your air bike and just like dump out every watt in your body as fast as you can. I think it's really good for you. And so I love that. Love it. 0 (42m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. It's been a great addition to my workouts. What about routine? Let's touch a little bit about routine. I'm a big morning and evening routine. What type of things do you maybe help with your patients or yourself as far as like your morning and evening routines? 1 (42m 29s): Oh man. So I, I don't have a, you know, all, I have no exotic morning routine. A lot of people are like journaling and measuring, learning and thinking, no, like I basically just, I've got, you know, cats and dogs and a wife and kid and like, I'm just trying to survive. You know what I mean? I'm just trying to get out of the house. Keep everybody alive. How many kids do? Oh, just one. Yeah. Yeah. I have a teenage daughter. She's 14. So I'm just in survival mode. I, you know, my first patient is seven in the morning and I have a pretty long commute and I have to, you know what, we're like walking the dog and do all this stuff. 1 (43m 15s): So was no fancy routine at all. I'm just basically like down in the trenches, working hard. 0 (43m 23s): Well, Hey, go taking the dog for a walk. That's Hey, that's a good part of the routine or 1 (43m 27s): That's true. Oh yeah. And honestly, anyone who wants to up their step count, go adopt a pit bull the way we did that seems to explode your step count already. Yeah, definitely ups to step down. But yeah, I don't have any kind of fancy routine. My diet, I do a 16, eight every day. So I basically don't eat until lunch time. They, you know, the two meals in our window, lunch and dinner, maybe a little snack in there in between. I work out every day with basically triples. Oh, well one set to failure with some rest pause sets of some sort of pushing the pushups. Did something like that. 1 (44m 7s): Some sort of pulling the pull-ups typically, and then some sort of leg moves like pistol squats or that kind of thing. So I'm basically just doing a single, really, really hard set of push full legs every day. And then I try to do some sort of cardio every day, either. It's just a 500 meters on the rowing machine or a running with a dog. I do this thing where when we reach a hill, we sprint up at as fast as we can and then we walk down. So I'm basically just sprinting uphill, every chance I get. It's kind of like some low budget interval training I like to do. Yeah. 0 (44m 47s): These are the joints easier on the joints when you're going uphill a little bit too. 1 (44m 51s): Right? Exactly. So it's basically daily doing little bursts of maximum output cardio and little bursts of maximum intensity push, full legs. And the, the beauty of that is they can all be interstitial at different times. You know what I mean? Like I can do lunch break at work. I can do set up pushups. I can do some pistol squats, but then later when I get home, I gotta pull up bar or something. I can do set up, pulling exercise, pull up, throws, something like that. And then the sprints it's like, I might do it when I'm walking the dog or I might do it on the room, she later or something like that. But I'm just doing these tiny little nano workouts. That's like two minutes each, but it's as hard as I can possibly generate, but I'm just sprinkling them throughout the deck. 1 (45m 38s): And that's, that's pretty much how it goes. I don't have a, what I really don't have a lot of his free time. So I don't have this exotic free time a ritual at all. 0 (45m 48s): This is good to hear. I think this is good for the people to hear. Right. You know? Cause I know you're you, you, you, you know, you have books and you speak out a lot and I think it's good to hear it from you that, you know, you're busy just like them, but you know, it's not about making excuses. You're just finding a way to get it done. 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. I'm just squeezing the diet and exercise in there individually. And I don't have a whole bunch of time to just like journal and meditate, not doing this, 0 (46m 13s): You know, it's not for everyone. I will say my wife and I have been doing meditation before bed. And I think it's a good time to sort of separate, okay, this is what's gone on during the day and with work and with kids, and then you just sort of like, you got this cutoff, maybe you do it, you know, right before bed. And even if it's just, we've been doing like 10, 15 minutes of like some guided meditations, maybe that's something you can add, but it's a great way. And it's nice to do it with a partner and just sort of then, you know, go right to bed and finish the goal. That sounds good. Yeah. So maybe next time we talk, you'll try implementing a little meditation. 0 (46m 54s): Well, this is good. I think the moral of this story of, of this interview was prioritize protein. Find ways to just put in micro workouts throughout your day, surround yourself with people who are healthier than you and get rid of everything that's bad in your pantry or 90% of it. I was trying 90%. You can keep the 10%, right? Yeah. 1 (47m 19s): Our CRA are crowded out with mortgage stuff. 0 (47m 22s): Right? Exactly. Crowded out with the good stuff. If you have a few things, I'm the same way. Like I'll have a little things that are like, I don't know. I like, I've always liked peanut butter and jelly. It's like, you know, so I'll have occasionally, but you know what, instead of putting it on just like a bad whole grain bread, I'll do it. Like they have these egg white wraps that are really cool. And there's like, there's like nothing in it. It's like egg whites. And then I think it's just like one filler just to hold it together. And so I'll put that on, you know, I'll put that or, you know, on, on it every once in a while. And that's like my sort of like splurge, so you can sort of splurge, but you're not like, you know, I'm not like having some horrible piece of bread. 0 (48m 4s): That's just going to like weigh me down. 1 (48m 7s): Right. Right. Yeah. So I like that. You're basically just substituting us on a little bit lower carb. It gives you a little higher society for calories, a little higher protein percent. That's brilliant. 0 (48m 17s): Yeah. I like it. I know there's my dog been. He made it about, you know, almost 50 minutes without seeing a squirrel. But on that note, he, he wanted us to end the interview. Right. Well, I appreciate you coming on again, Dr. Ted and best place to check you out. 1 (48m 38s): Oh, you could just go to Ted name and.com and anything new. I do. I'll probably fro there so that, yeah, that's what I would check out. 0 (48m 48s): Okay. Well check them out there and I will put that in the show notes and I appreciate you coming on the podcast for part two. So thanks so much. And we'll talk down the road. 1 (48m 58s): All right. Great to talk to you. Thank you for having 0 (48m 60s): Me. No problem. Thanks for listening to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

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