Brian (0s):
Coming up on the Get Lean e Klean podcast,
Michael (4s):
It, it's become roboticized. Unfortunately, you know, I can remember the days of seeing my physician and the, the conversation would start out by a review of, how are you, how is the family, how are things, what's going on? And currently the physicians are under such a quota, such pressure to get so many patients through that, that camaraderie, that that discussion of life has been lost. And instead, all you're seeing is the back of that physician's head as he or she is typing into a computer and clicking off boxes of, of completed notes as opposed to actually engaging eye to eye with you and examining you.
Michael (52s):
Even physical diagnosis has fallen wayside to lab studies and imaging.
Brian (60s):
Hello and welcome to the Get Lean ean podcast. I'm Brian Grn, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week, I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Dr. Michael D. Young. Dr. Young spent nearly 30 years as a surgeon while living and practicing medicine in Chicago. He's also a bestselling author of three books, consequence of Murder, illness of Medicine, and Net of Deception. Currently, Dr. Young is on the faculty of the Department of Urology at the University of Illinois in Chicago.
Brian (1m 42s):
We discussed issues with the current healthcare system, lack of nutrition training for doctors, the impact insurance and pharma companies have on your doctor, and why we need to be proactive regarding our health. Really enjoyed my interview with Dr. Young. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right. Welcome to the Get Lean e Clean podcast. My name is Brian Grn, and today we have Dr. Michael D. Young, welcome to the show.
Michael (2m 12s):
Good morning. Thank you.
Brian (2m 13s):
Yeah, we were talking offline. We both went to Indiana and our avid golfers, so a lot in common here and I'm excited to have Dr. Young on the show. Perhaps maybe give the audience a little bit of background, just your experience as a urologist, you know, 30 years as a surgeon, and what sort of brought you to now becoming a bit of an author. So,
Michael (2m 37s):
Well, I, I practiced medicine in the Chicago area for, as you stated, nearly 30 years. And I truly enjoyed it. I became disappointed, I guess would be the best word to describe my, my experiences in healthcare delivery towards the latter part of my practice over the past 10 years, as I witnessed a, a greater debacle that patients had to go through, that providers had to go through in obtaining or providing healthcare, it became increasingly frustrating for me and I wanted to write about it. And so I elected to step out of clinical practice and wrote my first book, the Illness of Medicine, which was a anecdotal and commentary about the evolution of our healthcare delivery system, which again, I, I find a great deal of fault in, I always enjoyed medicine.
Michael (3m 41s):
I have no complaints about that. None of the problems were, were the practice or the patients. It was the environment with which we had to practice. It was the overwhelming bureaucratic control from a corporate structure that was evolving in healthcare. And since I left practice, I was recruited to be involved and am currently the director of innovation in the Department of Urology at the University of Illinois at Chicago. I teach a course there in the College of Medicine and am engaged in designing and developing medical instruments and surgical devices.
Michael (4m 22s):
And since then I have also written two novels with a medical predicate, and I'm currently working on my fourth book.
Brian (4m 32s):
Excellent. Yeah. And we were talking, your first book was The Illness of Medicine
Michael (4m 37s):
Yes.
Brian (4m 37s):
Experiences of Clinical Practice. What, what would, what are some of the big takeaways that individuals would get from reading that book?
Michael (4m 45s):
Well, I think the, the book starts out trying to explain how I evolved in medicine, both from my background as well as the practice that I was engaged in. And then it divides into more of a descriptor of the problems that patients are confronting. And I would state that the, the main predicate is that it is the business of medicine. It is the, yeah, the business of, of healthcare, who've, I feel their main objective is sustaining the business of healthcare. And that the patient has become more of a commodity in this transactional relationship with healthcare.
Michael (5m 34s):
The physicians themselves have really lost control of their own domain. They have lost the ability to appropriately manage not only what they're doing, the financial outcomes, but also the process by which patients go through. They don't own their own practices anymore. And so I'm trying to describe for the reader that the providers and the patients are really in the same lifeboat as they are struggling to contend with this overwhelming corporate managed perspective of healthcare.
Brian (6m 16s):
Yeah. It's interesting you used the word commodity as like the patients are commodities and you know, it's, it is a, it is a business, right. And almost it's one of those things where they like the healthcare system, do they, do they want us to get, do they want us to get better or do they Well,
Michael (6m 36s):
That's a great point, and I would make the statement, and perhaps it's a broad statement, but the United States is selling disease. We're not selling health. You know, when I turn on television, I'm not hearing a whole lot of advertisements about what to do. Right. For myself. What I am hearing is that we will sell you a pill.
Brian (7m 2s):
Right.
Michael (7m 3s):
And if you look at other countries that have much more preventative healthcare initiatives, we see fewer patients going to the emergency rooms. We see fewer patients being admitted to the hospital. We have less of the chronicity of disease that we have here in the us which is really reactive instead of preventative. And so
Brian (7m 32s):
Why do you think that is? Do, would you say that's because just the, the amount of clout and money within the pharmaceuticals?
Michael (7m 39s):
Well, I don't blame the pharmaceuticals entirely. I do find them to be significantly culpable for a lot of the problem. If we looking at the pharmaceuticals, the United States makes up 5% of the world's population, and yet 40% of all drug sales are in the United States. 40% of that, of, of that money is, is gleamed here at the us I believe 80% of all hydrocodone prescriptions for the whole world are prescribed here in the us. So yes, the pharmaceutical industry is promoting themselves significantly. They advertise significantly.
Michael (8m 20s):
If you look at television, oh yeah. I think several years ago a study was performed that showed over 700,000 ads on TV for drugs. And it's interesting to note, Brian, that the US and New Zealand are the only two countries in the world that allow medication direct consumer advertising. Hmm. So yes, the pharmaceutical industry has a large part in the cost. We think that, you know, they contribute significantly to many of the people who go into bankruptcy. They simply can't afford their medications.
Michael (9m 2s):
Right. I would also put a, a fair amount, and probably the majority of fault on the insurance industry. I like to quote, you know, the golden rule that he owns, the gold makes the rules and the insurance industry dictates the flow of money within medicine. I, as a, as a physician, can charge whatever I like, but the insurance industry is going to reimburse me. What they deem is reasonable and their metrics for what is reasonable is, is not the same as mine. And so I do feel that the insurance industry, which is regulating the great majority of, of, of costs, both physician costs, hospital costs, what the patient has to pay out of pocket, et cetera.
Michael (9m 58s):
And finally, I would argue that the corporate structure that now owns hospitals and physicians, some 45% of practices, some 70% of physicians who are under 40 are managed by a corporate structure. And they are dictating, for instance, to physicians how many patients they need to see how, how much they have to do, they're controlling the, the paycheck.
Brian (10m 27s):
Yeah. And you don't see many private practice anymore, right? Like it's too expensive right. To be in practice for yourself. Is that correct?
Michael (10m 36s):
Yeah. Yes. I was in private practice initially for 20 years, but with the costs of malpractice insurance, with the inability as a solo practitioner or a small practice to compete with the contracting that occurs with various insurance coverage, we ended up having to join a large collaborative group of urologists. There were about 70 of us in practice. Wow. It was the second largest group in the United States. And unfortunately, yes, it wa it was a matter of survival financially with that.
Michael (11m 20s):
But unfortunately, I in turn lost my capability of dictating how I would do things. It was a corporate, you know, it was like a Titanic turning and everything had to go through a internal discussion review and, and, and it become a, it became a very
Brian (11m 41s):
Like political, almost political
Michael (11m 43s):
And very unpleasant way for me to practice how I wanted to practice was now dictated by a, a group decision. And well, I went, went into private practice cuz I had my own visions of how I wanted to proceed. And now I was part of a large consortium and not all of which felt the way I did about certain things.
Brian (12m 5s):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's obviously been the growing trend, like you've mentioned. And I think like yourself getting into becoming a physician in the first place, you probably didn't think it would go down that road. But I, a lot of pe a lot of doctors don't imagine themselves going down that road. But like you said, it's almost a matter of survival as far as having a practice and being able to practice the medi medicine that you, you know, you've learned over the last Yes.
Michael (12m 30s):
It, it's become roboticized unfortunately, you know, I can remember the days of seeing my physician and the, the conversation would start out by a review of how are you, how is the family, how are things, what's going on? And currently the physicians are under such a quota, such pressure to get so many patients through that, that camaraderie that that discussion of life has been lost. And instead all you're seeing is the back of that physician's head as he or she is typing into a computer and clicking off boxes of, of completed notes as opposed to actually engaging eye to eye with you and examining you.
Michael (13m 19s):
Even physical diagnosis has fallen wayside to lab studies and imaging. And I'm not saying that that is wrong in terms of diagnostic ability, but I also feel we have lost that human component of healthcare that I, as a patient, I need someone to touch my belly, hold my hand, smile, give me reassurance, and not this roboticized sterile treatment modality that we're in today. Mostly out of efficiency needs.
Brian (13m 55s):
Yeah. And you, and you mentioned before about like prevention and obviously myself being in this business as a health coach and just interviewing a lot of different individuals in the some same realm. Hope, I think prevention hopefully has become more in the, in the limelight in a sense with a lot of different, like for example, I'm learning through a company called Functional Diagnostic Nutrition where you know, you're gonna learn how to, you know, do some tests on individuals and, and help people, you know, be proactive about their health because really our healthcare system, or you wanna, if you wanna almost call it like a sick care system, is really just about, you know, waiting till that individual gets
Michael (14m 37s):
Sick. Yes, yes. Exactly. And, and, and to your point, nutrition is something that I honestly feel was neglected in my healthcare medical school. Right. Education, the value of understanding diet, understanding the gut biome as a, a major predicate in our overall health was, was really ignored. And much of our healthcare teaching is exactly what you said.
Michael (15m 17s):
It's after the disease has occurred as opposed to preventing it. I, when I was a practitioner, as a urologist, obviously I practiced in the era when Viagra came out, Viagra was introduced, it was f d a approved in, in March of 1998. And I remember very clearly how that impacted healthcare patients were demanding this little blue pill. And yet when I would try to tell patients, well, let's try something else. Let's, let's change your diet, right? Let's increase your sleep, let's cut out the alcohol, let's cut out the smoking, let's go on a vacation for a week.
Michael (16m 4s):
All of these measures to try to improve health without taking a medication seem to be an outlier in how many of my colleagues were managing it. Because it was much easier, it was much simpler to write a prescription than to go through the litany of discussions about one's trying to lose 20 pounds. And as we look at our society today, if I, I believe obesity is about 40% of our population or overweight, I, I don't know specifically, that's a bit outta my realm. But we have a, a society that is not engaged in healthcare prevention and as a consequence we're seeing all of these, these chronic illnesses.
Brian (16m 58s):
Yeah. And you know, also too on that point is the, the amount of statins and things that are, that are handed out, is this, is part of that reasoning just the physicians, the pressure for them to, to, you know, to move the statins to make,
Michael (17m 16s):
You know? No, I don't think so. I, I and, and I'm certainly not opposed to writing prescriptions. That's what I did. Sure, sure. However, as a surgeon, for instance, to cut was not to cure, to cut was to cut. Right. And it is not the, the go-to solution that I felt was appropriate. It was the last solution. And the same thing with medication. Certainly if you need to prescribe it, do so. But I would always encourage trying what could be done without the introduction of these drugs. And, and it's not that these drugs are, are necessarily bad for you.
Michael (17m 59s):
However, many patients are taking multiple drugs for many things. And I would see, particularly in my practice as a urologist, a a fair number of my patients were elderly. I'd see patients coming in on 12, 13, 15 drugs. Wow. And rather than adding another drug, let's try to subtract some and let's see, you know, we're on one drug to compete with or cause one problem and another drug to balance that drug. And it, it really became a ridiculous chest match of trying to counter each drug side effects. And, and so to that point, no, I don't think physicians are encouraged to write drugs, but I think they're very easily ways to, to help people.
Michael (18m 47s):
And that is the one they do. And I would argue other ways that you're more, much more long-term or time consuming are less frequently engaged.
Brian (18m 56s):
Would, would one solution be, cuz I had a doctor out of the West Coast, Dr. Gary Schleifer, who has a practice and they do, they're, they're, they're geared towards preventative. Would one way of sort of changing the realm around this or the landscape is to, with, with the trainings that are being done for physicians to, to incorporate more of that preventative end in their trainings and make that part of almost like a benefit, a benefit for the, to having a practice and helping people.
Michael (19m 26s):
Oh, absolutely. And and again, the physicians, 99.99% of physicians are going into healthcare. They're going through a very long process of, of education and training, a lot of work, a lot of sacrifice. They want to do the right thing. I think many of them are handcuffed right now. They simply don't have the capability in the way practices are set up to facilitate these long-term discussions with a patient. I, you know, current patient comes in and it, it's interesting, Brian, a study was done that showed that a patient comes in and 88% of their time, their introductory statement is interrupted and it's interrupted at 17 seconds in.
Brian (20m 17s):
How do you, where do you get this data from? That's it.
Michael (20m 22s):
I I mean this is, this has been repeated. This is not from a study. Right.
Brian (20m 26s):
But
Michael (20m 27s):
Patients who have been preparing for that appointment for weeks, if not months, have a, you know, they are prepared to think about what they want to talk about. And the physician who has no time allotted because they are under this quota system because their practice is owned by this corporate structure, is telling them you have to see, you know, 20 patients per day x you know, ding, ding, ding. Right. It's very much a, a roboticized process. The pa the patient is also exposed to more mid-level in practice. Right. Less of the physician's time. I've met some very, very capable and very good mid-levels.
Michael (21m 8s):
But again, from my perspective, patients want to talk to the doctor and the doctor just doesn't have the facility to do it. And so you're talking about preventative emotions or preventative means for healthcare. That requires time, it requires emphasis, it requires reiteration. That just doesn't exist today in our current system.
Brian (21m 35s):
Yeah. And, and really just comes down to the individual being proactive and taking their health in their own hands. Granted, there, there's a time and place obviously to go to a doctor and, and I'm not understating that, but like even for my own health, like I do my own, you know, I use Merrick Labs, they, you know, got a script right up, do my own labs. I had another individual who I was on the podcast who is very well versed in, in analyzing blood, you know, doing blood analysis and just, I've done some set in talking with him and just going through the blood work and really looking at what are optimal markers for myself. Cuz a lot of times the marker, even though the ranges that are shown on a lot of the blood work that's being done is not optimal.
Brian (22m 17s):
It's what, you know, like the general population should be at. And so Yeah. Really comes down to a lot of just like, like you mentioned. Yeah, go ahead. Yes.
Michael (22m 27s):
But you know, it's interesting, Brian, you're mentioning yourself or the most people, they don't have the time, they don't have the energy, they don't have the resources. Yeah. They are working one, maybe two jobs. They have, they have their children to manage. They have so many responsibilities that they, the last thing they can do is to be their own physician. And, and to that end, many people go online for their healthcare information. And that is a double-edged sword. Sure. Because people are learning the vocabulary, but they're not learning the meaning.
Michael (23m 9s):
And so they, they will go online for 20 minutes, a half hour, you know, after I discuss with them a particular problem. I mean, I've spent 30, 40 years doing that, and yet they're gonna go online for half an hour and feel that they have the equivalent background to discuss this. And they don't obviously, but the internet provides a, a, a background information, media for them, but it is not replacing, and people who think that are, are, are, are making an error because they, they don't have the background to properly interpret everything. So yes, you have knowledge, you have experience, but the great majority of people, they don't.
Michael (23m 55s):
Yeah. And seeing a doctor is a rare event and unfortunately it's all too often after a problem has occurred.
Brian (24m 3s):
Yeah, no, I, you're right. I mean, most people won't necessarily go out of their way to, you know, do their own blood work. And, and, and maybe I think, I think it's important though to align yourself maybe with either some type of holistic PR practitioner or someone that's a little bit more on the preventative end, still have the doctor Right. You know, as, as you know, as an annual or biannual, you know, sort of appointment. But it also helps to have someone who's more versed maybe in the nutrition and the wellness side of it. I think that that in itself is, is is a good sort of one, two, well,
Michael (24m 40s):
Yeah, I mean things are evolving today. If you look at just what we can do with the apps on our phone, patients are able to monitor, for instance, their glucose much more easily today with the transdermal monitors as opposed to having doing a finger stick.
Brian (24m 60s):
I have one on right now.
Michael (25m 2s):
So yeah, if you're doing a finger stick to check your glucose several times a day after, a few days after, a few weeks after a few months or years. Right. You get tired of sticking yourself. Yeah, it hurts. Yeah. It's expensive. And you know what, after a while you say, you know what, I'm not doing it as often as I should. So obviously the transdermal monitors allow you to more frequently do it and take control where, again, much of our healthcare is improved if we have a consistency and frequency of evaluation, you have the patients who can monitor their EKGs off their phones today.
Michael (25m 42s):
So I, I do and I'm hopeful that downstream we will have technology that allows you to measure, say blood pressure more easily. Yeah. All of these things that give or empower the patient to take some modicum of control rather than waiting for that as you state annually or biannual exam, we, the more frequent you can assess things, keep your weight in check, keep your glucose in check, I think you're going to see less downstream medical issues.
Brian (26m 14s):
Yeah, no, you're seeing a lot that with the wearables, like you mentioned the cgm, which I do from time to time just to sort of just to get an idea. I like to test things out and like the whoop and the aura ring and where analyzes sleep, so Yeah. No, I think that is a growing technology that can definitely be used. What would you say, let's maybe get a little bit into you. You've, you have a couple, a few books. Books maybe touch on your most recent one is, is that the novel is, or
Michael (26m 47s):
Well, I have written two novels using healthcare as a predicate into problems that occur. My last book was entitled Net of Deception. And Net of Deception was really predicated on my frustration as a practitioner with these evolving online pharmaceuticals such as, pardon me?
Brian (27m 16s):
Yeah, no problem.
Michael (27m 18s):
Such as where one can order various erectile dysfunction medications. And as a consequence, I found it very disturbing that a patient could so easily convince the practitioner at these companies of the need for say, Viagra. And they would get it right. And they bypassed many of the questions that I think are important.
Michael (27m 58s):
Oh, one could argue that their, their licensed physicians, they know what questions to ask. I went on myself to try, I could have gotten these drugs without ever talking to anybody. There was very little vetting of my need. And yet these drugs are not benign. There have been deaths related to them. And so I wrote that novel as an expose, if you will, in a, in a fictitious manner, but predicated on reality of a nefarious company that takes that healthcare information that one is giving and uses it as blackmail information.
Michael (28m 37s):
You know, I can go to Amazon, I could go to any online retailer and they'll ask me for my mailing address and my credit card, that's fine. But if I go and they're starting to ask me more delicate questions about my personal health information, well that's things that they can hold onto and potentially use against me. And so that's what the novel was about. It was about a, a bad acting pharmaceutical online company taking advantage of people's needs and their weaknesses and then going back and using that against them. So it's a, it's a fictionalized perspective of reality.
Brian (29m 21s):
Yeah. What would you say, like what, what are some of the biggest things that you learned about just like writing these books, but also your just experience 30 years as a surgeon? Like would you have changed anything through your career? Would you have done anything differently? If there's someone that's maybe getting into medicine, what, what advice would you give them?
Michael (29m 43s):
Well, I do teach in the College of Medicine at University of Illinois here in Chicago. Nice. I teach a course in innovation and in the development of medical devices more as a, as a technique or a tool for learning methodology and process. Okay. But again, I try to emphasize to the students the need to maintain and to find the, the, if there is such a thing, the humanness that has been lost in healthcare.
Michael (30m 23s):
The students are very well versed in anatomy, physiology, et cetera, et cetera. But how do you learn to talk to someone? How do you learn to evaluate, to be in touch with them? And I, I'm not trying to be pollyannish here, but we have lost that in healthcare. We, we all have that image of the physician as this caring individual who's listening to our problems. And yet when we go to the office, I think we all come away almost disappointed that I've gotta slip of paper with a set of instructions of what I have wrong with me and a prescription and a number to call.
Michael (31m 7s):
And when I call that number, it ends up going to some computerized answering service that puts me in touch with someone I've never met. And so I really want to try the, the current generation to, to, to try to become more involved in, in, in, in treating a person. I, from my perspective, treating an individual is, is, is not treating a disease in a person, is treating a person with a disease. Hmm. And understand that that person needs comfort and they need understanding and they also need direction and they, they need a, a human element that I'm, I'm finding is missing today.
Brian (31m 54s):
Yeah, no, that's, that is so true. And I was actually speaking of company that I think is sort of on the forward end of doing things. A company called, have you heard of Go Forward? They've not, they're actually in Chicago. I've never actually done anything with them. I'm not affiliated with them, but I was just looking them up and that they've sort of tried to combine like personalized preventative healthcare and make it all into one sort of a cool leading edge company. So yeah, it's called forward and if someone's looking for maybe a resource, they'll use that, that might be something. And, and I know they're in Chicago in a few different
Michael (32m 32s):
Areas. No, it's, it's a terrific concept. I I I see a, I see two problems. I see, see, yes. Number one, people need to take more control individually. They need perhaps more advocacy on their own, but we also need to find a method of healthcare for the masses.
Brian (32m 52s):
Sure. Public, right. Because they're, they're paying monthly, you know, this is out of pocket, right.
Michael (32m 58s):
People can't afford that. Right. Half of 45%, 50% of Americans right now can't afford a $500 emergency medical bill. Their budgets are so thin, they are not going to spend that extra 10, 20, 30, $50 a month. They just can't. And they
Brian (33m 21s):
Won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
Michael (33m 25s):
Yeah. The economics of healthcare really supersedes what most people want and need today. Right. And we look at this healthcare train that is moving right now in the United States. We have the most costly healthcare system in the world. And what are we getting in return for that? We are 30th in longevity. And I'm sure that comes as a shock to many listeners. We all pride ourselves on American technology innovation and look what we have.
Michael (34m 5s):
And yet we're 30th in longevity. We're first in obesity, you know, 15% of our children are on poverty. These are inexcusable numbers.
Brian (34m 21s):
Yeah. And there's probably not a quick fix as we've seen, especially with all the politics and things like that.
Michael (34m 29s):
No, no, there isn't. But I think there is a fix and
Brian (34m 35s):
Maybe you should run for mayor.
Michael (34m 37s):
Well, I, I I, I do think that the, the, the, this is not a problem that has been forever, I think. And, and this is something again I experienced over the last decade or so in practice, which eventually drove me out of it. But if we can control, and this was the predicate of illness of medicine, if we could control the flow of money, I think we could better manage things. Now that, that, that's easier said than done, obviously. But we can regain this if, from my perspective, if you have a single payer system where you're not having competition and you're not having a fragmented healthcare delivery system right now, the drug companies are pulling out what they can, the device are pulling out what they can, the industry is pulling out what they can.
Michael (35m 34s):
Nobody is working in a consolidated fashion for the patient. We live in a country with 20 to 25% wasted money in a 18 trillion, you know, we have, we have this massive amount of gdp of which, what 17%, three and a half trillion is spent on healthcare. 20 to 25% of that is wasted with administrative costs over testing inefficiency use of our testing. There's no excuse for that. If we had a single payer system, from my perspective, no one would be competing.
Michael (36m 14s):
They'd be working in a consolidated manner. So I do feel that without getting too far out on the political spectrum Yeah. Because healthcare shouldn't be political. Right. Healthcare is something we all need. We are all patients, physicians alike, but we do need a method to reel in and control how money is spent in medicine. And I think if we can do that, we would have better control. We could eliminate many of these problems that we have. So I don't, I'm not giving up on it. Yeah. But how we vote, which companies we support, whose products we buy, which stocks we buy, et cetera, et cetera, can all control the flow of money.
Michael (37m 1s):
And I think it is a generational problem, Brian. This isn't gonna be fixed in a, in a decade. It may take 20 to 30 years, but I think we could get things back on a, on a, where the ship isn't, isn't keeling. Yeah.
Brian (37m 15s):
Well, yeah, this is definitely a topic that we could probably talk hours about. But yeah, I appreciate everything you've brought to the show and where, where's the best place for people to find you?
Michael (37m 27s):
Well, people who are interested in my publications, they can go to my website, which is Michael J. Young md.com. They can go to my publisher's website, which is gm books.com. I'm on Amazon in a Chicago area. There are not a lot of bookstores anymore to find these books.
Brian (37m 54s):
I definitely wanna check 'em out cuz I'm, I'm be I'm I'm more of a nonfiction guy. But it sounds like it's a, you're, your novels are sort of a, a mix of both non-fiction and fiction.
Michael (38m 4s):
Yes, they are. Yeah. Yeah. And, but a few independent bookstores will carry my books. But again, from where I'm sitting, I have to think long and hard where I could physically go to a bookstore and purchase a book. And so online seems to be the most Yeah. That appears to be the easiest method to do it. And I hope people will, will take the time to, to read these books. They, they all carry a theme. The, the novels, as you stated, they are novels, but they're, they're predicated on experiences of reality. Yeah. Of drug company realities, of drug innovation, realities of problems that people see in healthcare.
Michael (38m 50s):
And my main topic, I guess if one could say, I see a common theme of greed in all of my books, which leads to many of the debacles that we're having.
Brian (39m 4s):
Well, Dr. Young, I appreciate it. I will definitely check out, I'll put some show links in the show notes of your books and your website. And yeah, thanks for, thanks for coming on the show today. A a local, local Chicago guy and IU looks like their basketball team's gonna be someone to watch this. They're
Michael (39m 23s):
Looking good.
Brian (39m 24s):
Yes. Season. So thank, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Michael (39m 27s):
Great, Ryan, thank you so much.
Brian (39m 31s):
Thanks for listening to the Get Lean e Unclean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.
