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episode #358

Interview with Dr. Jordan Shallow: Injury Prevention, Golf Training, and Recovery!

May 20, 2024 in Podcast

Intro

This week I interviewed former professional powerlifter, chiropractor, and performance coach, Dr. Jordan Shallow!

In this episode, we discuss how he started his online biomechanics and resistance training course Pre-Script, designed for high performing coaches, trainers, and athletes.

We also discuss:

  • How to Avoid Injury at the Gym
  • Importance of Assessing Clients
  • How Golfers Should Train
  • Dr. Shallow's Training and Eating Routine
and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was!



Brian (0s):

Coming up on the GET, LEAN, Eat, Clean, Podcast.

Jordan (3s):

We get it stuck in our head that the strengthening we need to do is very remedial and very static, right? So the, a lot of times people are doing bird dogs and side planks and curl ups and these very geriatric type movements or anti movements, if you will, right? Limiting the amount of movement at the, at the lumbar spine, which I think is the furthest thing from sports specific, especially when it comes to golf, because, you know, golf is a very, it's, it's static overcome by dynamic. So you kind of have this moment of stiffness when you make contact with the ball that is preceded by a ton of aggressive rotation. And that's where you're going to need your core muscles to be, you know, the most active.

Jordan (47s):

You never try to keep your, you know, you're basically using your rib cage and your pelvis as a slingshot and moving one away from the other and creating a lot of eccentric potential as you, as you wind up your back swing. And then moving through a lot of con centric AC acceleration as you move through your follow through.

Brian (1m 7s):

Hello and welcome to the GETLEAN E Clean Podcast. I'm Brian Gryn and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I interviewed former professional powerlifter chiropractor and performance coach, Dr. Jordan Shallow. We discussed how he started his online biomechanics and resistance training course, Pre Script. We also talked about How to Avoid Injury at the Gym, the Importance of Assessing Clients How Golfers Should Train, Dr. Shallow's training and eating routine.

Brian (1m 49s):

And his one tip to get your body back to what it once was. Really enjoyed my Interview with Dr Shallow. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All, right Welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I've Dr. Jordan Shallow and welcome to the show.

Jordan (2m 8s):

Thanks for having me, man. Excited to be here.

Brian (2m 10s):

Yeah. Excited to have you on. I've been taking your course, watching your content And, now we get to chat about all things fitness and conditioning and strength. So

Jordan (2m 22s):

Yeah, it's nice to be on, it's nice to have the other people unmuted. Well, I just usually sit there and talk into a void, so it's nice to actually have conversation. 'cause I, I, human interaction escapes me sometimes because I just talk at my computer all the time.

Brian (2m 34s):

Yeah, I can imagine. You started Pres Script, right? When did you start Pres Script?

Jordan (2m 41s):

Well, late 20 15, 20 16. I was fresh out of fresh outta chiropractic college, living in the San Francisco Bay area. I'm one of my former classmates, graduated together, friends, colleagues, training partners. Yeah, Jordan and I, yeah, I think late 20, 20 15 we kind of came up with this idea and here we are almost 10 years later.

Brian (3m 1s):

Wow. Amazing. And I'm love, I'm loving it. I'm going through Pres Script one, and I would recommend it for anybody. I don't think you even necessar necessarily have to be a, a trainer or health coach or whatever, because I think a lot of this stuff can just be used fundamentally in your own training. I mean, I've learned a lot of stuff and I've been in health and wellness and fitness for a while now, but I've learned some, some a lot of different things that I've never heard before. And we're gonna discuss some of that today. But before let we get into that. Why don't maybe just give the, the viewers if they haven't heard of you, maybe just a little bit of your backstory.

Brian (3m 42s):

I know some of it, but they might not.

Jordan (3m 44s):

Yeah, sure. I, geez, how about, how far back do you wanna go? Let's, I'll, I'll pick it up. In the professional career I did my undergraduate, university of Toronto. I went to chiropractic college in the San Francisco Bay area. I graduated in 2015. I went straight to work in the corporate sector. I was a chiropractor at Apple's World Headquarters in Cupertino, California. I took on a job as a strength and conditioning coach for the men's and women's rugby team at Stanford University. At the same time, I held both positions for a number of years while opening two practices in the Bay Area, one in Mountain View, California, one in Dublin, California, in the East Bay. And then coming out of the other side of that, oh, I was also a competitive power lifter at the time.

Jordan (4m 31s):

Started free Script and started our own podcast. So it was a busy handful of years for me. After graduating and after a handful of years, I, I found myself getting, you know, proposition to teach seminars and courses, usually on the backs of my powerlifting career. A lot to do with the information and content. I was putting it on social media. I would travel pretty much all over the world to compete. And whenever I would get invited, they would be like, well, do you wanna host a seminar while you're here? Hadn't really thought of, it was just a guy putting stuff up on the internet, trying to, you know, to treat some patients in his practices. And then that sort of became like a thing. And I started doing more and more seminars as I competed to the point where working and teaching kind of overtook my bandwidth to really train and compete at a high level.

Jordan (5m 21s):

And ended up doing, getting a job with the, in, in the corporate gym sector in the big box gym franchise here in Canada called Good Life Fitness and another internationally called Ultimate Performance So. They sort of hired me to develop curriculum and, and implement and teach it to their staff across the world. So I just did that. I packed up a, I packed up a duffle bag and a backpack and left California for what I thought was gonna be three months to just kind of teach consecutive weekends in a different place. And that ended up being the better part of three and a half years. All the while kind of developing the online side of Pres Script.

Jordan (6m 2s):

At the time, all of the education I was doing was strictly, not exclusively, but strictly for these two major gym franchises. And I would fly from Halifax, Nova Scotia to Shanghai to Dubai to Burnaby, British Columbia, and pretty much everywhere in between. So yeah, they created like a little bit of a, I guess like a, an interest, I don't wanna say a vacuum per se, but people were like, what are you doing? Like, why, what are you talking about? Why are you going all these places to talk to these trainers? And so I didn't have any exclusive agreements with either of them, and I just kinda woke up one morning and thought, Hmm, I've got enough inquiries about this where I should probably do something about this.

Jordan (6m 43s):

Because at the time our business was primarily in training and rehabilitation So. we sold training products exclusive to barbell and strength athletes that, you know, we're dealing with nagging injuries, knee pain, back pain, things of the sort. But then we decided to shift the primary core of the business to education, get in where you fit in and yeah, we, we released the pre Script level one course 2017 ish, maybe the first semester. And, you know, the company's grown expansively since then. And now we have level one, level two, and probably about nine or 10 other courses spanning into the nutrition space, exercise programming. But the core track is really biomechanics and applied biomechanics and functional anatomy.

Jordan (7m 27s):

And yeah, I just, we've been developing that alongside my two business partners, Jordan and Matt. and we have a great team that's worldwide of guys that, you know, teach, teach alongside us, develop courses for us. You mentioned Brandon Schultz, Gillian Hamilton, Kyle Baxter, Stu Locke. I'm gonna, it's like naming, it's like my parents naming their kids. Like they, I'm gonna forget what, so I'm gonna stop now. The the ironic part is that they only have two and they can't remember both of 'em. So yeah, that's, that's kind of brought up to speed of where I am now. Now I, I do a lot in the con, so being a chiropractor still, I do a lot in the concierge space. So I work one-on-one with athletes usually on the training and treatment side. So everything from, you know, living with them, going on the road to seeing them periodically in and out of season.

Jordan (8m 11s):

The majority of my clientele is NFL athletes, primarily couple of major league baseball, couple in the NHL and yeah. And when, when I'm not training and treating, I'm teaching and traveling. So yeah, it's, it's kind of me that's in a nutshell, as it were.

Brian (8m 29s):

And you're also a dog lover, right?

Jordan (8m 32s):

Do you have Yes. Oh my God, yes.

Brian (8m 34s):

Okay.

Jordan (8m 34s):

Thought I, yes, so I

Brian (8m 36s):

Have two dogs of my own. I you do you have a German Shepherd, is that right?

Jordan (8m 41s):

So yeah, he's living in the south coast of Australia. He's Oh, okay. He's almost, he's almost 11 now. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I had him from eight, eight weeks to about five years and then he's, he's overseas now, living the best life possible. Okay. What, yeah, German shepherds are, they're, they're a special breed.

Brian (9m 2s):

Yeah. Yeah. And, and did getting your chiropractic degree help you when you got into, you got into power lifting after that, is that correct? And competed, right? Or

Jordan (9m 14s):

Yeah, I, yeah, that ran about a similar timeline. Okay. I had a friend of mine in school who was a competitive powerlifter from Wisconsin. I was always like, I was always into lifting weights. I worked out in the off season to play hockey and then I really kind of got bit by the bug while playing to the point where I liked training more than I liked playing. And so I was, you know, I was decently strong at barbell lifts before getting into even the notion of, of power lifting. But I would've done my first, I think I did my first meet the summer after I graduated. So either the summer before, the summer after 2015 or 2016. And then did chiropractic help? Yeah, I think, I think to a large degree it did. I mean, it just gives you so much, gives you so much background in pain management and really just the fundamentals of, of anatomy to be like, hmm, because everything hurts when you power lift, especially at like a competitive level.

Jordan (10m 10s):

So I kind of was, it helped me really parse out the difference between pain and discomfort and allowed me to push probably further than I would have been able to otherwise. 'cause I'm like, no, no, no, like I know this, this is fine. This is not, this is, you know, my back is sore. It's not a disc injury. Like some people might jump to believe in and maybe I would've as well without the formal training that I had. So, yeah, in a lot of ways I think it was, and still is super useful despite of some people's thoughts on the education and the, the career path. But for me it was, it was the reason I went to school was to learn things to apply, to get bigger, to get stronger. And yeah, so I definitely put what I learned to work and I thought it was super helpful in expediting my progress as a competitor.

Brian (10m 56s):

Yeah. And let's actually go down the road of like injury. I, I, I feel like as we get older, like I'm 40 plus, you know, you wanna get strong, but you also wanna avoid injury. 'cause then you could be out of the gym for weeks even more maybe depending on the injury. What would you say, I know you guys, your definition is of injuries applied forces greater than tissue tolerance. So what are the best ways for individuals, I know this might be a broad question, but to sort of prevent injury in the gym?

Jordan (11m 29s):

Yeah, I think it's, you know, controlling what you can control from a variable perspective on both sides of that equation, right? The applied force is, you know, having an idea of what you're lifting. I think a lot of people don't have an established training program and even the worst training program is better than no training program. So understanding, you know, it'd be no different than, you know, trying to lose body weight without having a really good idea of your macro insur macronutrient intake, your calorie intake, right? Training is very similar to that, where just having an understanding of your overall volume intensity on a daily and summative weekly basis, I think is a, a great place to start.

Jordan (12m 12s):

But then there's, you can get a little bit more into the weeds as far as sleep quality, quantity, right? How do we improve that? and we improve that with supplementation. Do we improve that with our environment? Do we improve that with our habits nutrition, right? Are we, you know, are we in some chronic pro-inflammatory state based off the amount of food we're eating or the types of food we're eating, right? Pain and injury, albeit not the same thing. They're both relatively complex as they're multifactorial. So, you know, whether it's, like I said, like changing habits, changing nutrition, changing body composition, there's a lot that you can do both in and outside the gym. But I think the big rocks is just understanding your variables and understanding them as constants, And, you know, there's a lot of different things that you can begin to control, which will decrease the likelihood of injury.

Jordan (13m 3s):

I mean, I think at best we're shooting for injury risk management, not necessarily Injury Prevention per se, but I think, yeah, there's, there's a lot that can be done that is well within the control of someone who, you know, doesn't have, you know, a master's or PhD or, or is a pro athlete. I think it's just making, you know, conscious decisions, getting your blood, getting blood work done on a semi-regular, a regular basis. All of these things, they might see a little bit, they might seem a little bit distant to the problem we're trying to solve of like, how do I avoid a muscle strain or a pole or a tear. But it's, it's all one, you know, the, the circle in the middle of that Venn diagram, you know, it has a, a lot of overlapping factors.

Jordan (13m 48s):

So really it's, as most people would just, you know, what people might just deem as like living a healthier lifestyle that will move the needle very rapidly in the direction of decreasing likelihood of injury. So yeah, big ones for me. Just to recap, probably getting blood work that's crucial if you, if you are in some sort of metabolic distress or compensation, the what that can do at the level of the tissue as far as robustness versus fragility is as important as technique, as it's important in exercise programming, all of those things. So outside of the obvious ones, I think that's one that a lot of people gloss over that is very, very consistently an underlying marker.

Jordan (14m 36s):

If you want to get di big into the biometric side of things, if you have a way of consistently tracking HRV, now this is something that might be outside of the, the realm of possibility for most like work a day people. But you know, in the athletic setting we see that variable when solved for a pretty consistent mile marker of predicting injury. So, you know, there are a couple of things that when you know how to interpret them properly can really help you decrease the likelihood of injury short and long term.

Brian (15m 12s):

And And, what about assessment? Just sort of knowing where you're at, like some of the assessments that you guys talk about in Pres Script, like the 90 90 test. It's tough on a podcast to explain some like, you know, but there's also like the Thomas test, right? Showing like how much hip extension someone has, or lack of thereof, right? Like shoulder assessments. I find that like doing, even just I think if individuals do just a, some type of like intro protocol to like shoulder intervention or like rotator cuff work even before they get into their lifts, I find that could be a way to sort of help prevent injury.

Jordan (15m 56s):

Yeah, I mean movement quality is, is paramount, right? And I think from an assessment standpoint, there, there are things that we would attribute to potentially decreasing. Like can you get your arm over your head, right? Can you get your hip into extension? These are all things that at, at the, at the, at the binary level of ones and zeros, like at the source movement code can be fairly complex, but there are ways to sort of weave them into normal exercise or what looks like normal exercise progressions and kind of meet people where they're at. So like loading outside of what we would consider an active range and And what we would consider an externally unstable environment.

Jordan (16m 37s):

So, you know, you can make concessions of, hey, I can't get my arm all the way over my head or my shoulder starts to pinch. Like do you get that same pinching if you do it on a, a cable machine shoulder press? Or is it just with dumbbells? Oh it's just with dumbbells. Okay, let's do the overhead press on a machine. Maybe it's a cable pin loaded, maybe it's a plate loaded, maybe it's a Smith machine. And the external environment will allow us to get in a position where if you can still push the meaningful weight but don't succumb to the reactive stability forces that are required of your, you know, hemo joint, your scapular thoracic joint, et cetera. And then maybe we work on that in isolation somewhere else in your workout, right? So a lot of it is, you know, a lot of it is really on the job assessment and the, I think the thing with assessment that can sometimes get lost, especially as we start to reach, you know, not beyond the trainer and start reaching the, the end user.

Jordan (17m 30s):

Someone who might hire a trainer or someone who might just be an enthusiast themselves is you're, you're always assessing, right? So a lot of times we kind of put on our assessment hat, we walk in and we go, okay, you know, whatever protocol people like to follow and then they take that hat off and they go All, right? We're gonna just do like pretty much the same exercise as I was gonna do anyways. But now we just know that like the left internal rotation is right or less than the right or whatever the presentation is. So, which look I think can be is not necessarily a bad idea. And we're, I think biomechanically we are far more similar individual to individual than like biochemically. And I think that's one of the reasons I've drawn to this profession is like, you know, the amount of variability in, you know, expression of someone's biochem, chemistry from person to person can be so variant.

Jordan (18m 18s):

But from an anthropometry perspective, like how much are skeletons differ, differ, how much are muscular insertions differ? How much our tensile strength of of baseline tissues differ? It's not anywhere near, you know, like hematology presentation, so like what someone's blood chemistry looks like or something like that. So, you know, I it's not necessarily misguided to have a relatively general heuristic for assessment and training. I just think it's, it's a little bit misguided to only adhere to those guidelines and principles during some arbitrary assessment period. I think that we should always be applying these base level principles to the actual stuff we're gonna do with people anyways.

Brian (19m 5s):

And this is these, a lot of these are just my own questions, but like when you talk about training and doing splits and you talk about it before, like your pecs and your lats both internally rotate your shoulders, right? And I have some postural dysfunction and I've always had it and like I I I just wonder how do you navigate training and also making sure that like you're not posturally getting worse as you go through your process.

Jordan (19m 42s):

Yeah, I mean I, I don't pay much mind to posture. I think the, there's no such thing as bad posture. Only static posture is bad posture. So like it, the, the, it's not the, it's not the position. You are not moving in. That's the issue. It's the issue that you are not moving, right? So that's, that's kind of where, and as far as that impacts like lifting and mechanics and asymmetries and compensations, I think this is where like having a deeper understanding of, you know, the ones and zeros really help because I don't think compensations are at, there's more, there's more cells in our body that are autonomically mediated than voluntarily mediated, which means like most of our body's actions are happening without our say so.

Jordan (20m 28s):

And like, thank God. 'cause like most of us aren't, and myself included, like aren't smart enough to, I don't know, figure out how to turn this camera on the two monitors that are in front of me and turn this mic on. And I also have to worry about all the other processes that my body just handles for me. So I think when, if, you know, if you're a coach or you're avid sort of weightlifting enthusiast, when you get into the realm of like compensations and we start talking about, you know, posture and someone has rolled shoulders and wing scapula and tight hips and upper cross and all these things, it's just, it's just kind of like, it's, to me it's just all sort of red flags. It's, you know, we're gonna try and put them in the best position they can subjectively and objectively we're gonna get some feedback. Does it look good? Does it feel good? And when it starts to look asymmetrical or weird, it's like, I think we need to understand that humans are naturally robust and they are not inherently fragile and there's actually a pretty large margin for error for what most people deem as good technique.

Jordan (21m 23s):

Now the real magic is understanding when and how And what muscles are gonna be loaded during particular compensation. Then adjusting your program to train muscles. Maybe that will more directly train a muscle that is compensated away from in a particular movement, given a postural bias or avoid training a muscle that works more in a movement because of a, a compensation pattern within a other movement. So that's where like, you know, load management really takes flight in a program is I can watch someone, I can watch 10 people deadlift 10 different ways and the rest of their programs might differ because of the way they go through that movement. Some might be sumo deadlifters and they're more quad and upper back dominant, which allows me a little bit more of a window to load into a hinge position.

Jordan (22m 10s):

'cause it, albeit a deadlift, not a ton of sheer force on the lumbar spine given a particular structure. Now someone might be doing a conventional deadlift that's like a ton of hinge, a hinge motion, which means like the chest is more parallel to the floor. And I'm like, well that's a lot of sheer force on the low back, that's a little bit more use in the lat. So I either, you know, I'm gonna of shy away from more hinging and maybe I have that person do a front squat rather than a low bar squat. So, you know, as we deal with posture, I think a lot of times it can be somewhat of a red herring. I think, you know, we have to accept that, you know, life is asymmetrical, that there's really, in the gym, there's lifting posture. That's all we're concerned with. And there are going to be interferences and impacts and compensations, but it's our brain doing what it does best, which is solving problems.

Jordan (22m 57s):

And we just need to be one step ahead of that problem solving curve and start to predict based off the way our brain is or a client's brain is solving this problem of a particular exercise, how we better put them in better exercises to li li to, to solve for the remainder of that equation. Like, what's left? What do we need to train, what do we need to attempt to balance out? So it's, it's a good question because it's something that I think a lot of people, they just take a surface level glance at it and they go, oh, okay, yeah, you know that, that makes sense. Bad posture, I'm gonna do train more my upper back and wrong. 'cause my, no, that's not really how it works. And and I don't think it really matters.

Jordan (23m 38s):

And a lot of people's rom boy upper back issues would really just start to resolve themselves of symptoms if they were just generally stronger. And I think that's where the, that's really where the sophistication comes in is there's, there's a simplicity to fixing a lot of problems that's like, yeah, just do the thing where you can lift the most amount of weight given your current situation and watch your situation drastically improve.

Brian (24m 2s):

Well, I'm a golfer, so like I'm, I'm, I'm

Jordan (24m 6s):

Bless

Brian (24m 6s):

You're shaking, you're shaking your head. I'm always interested in learning about like t-spine mobility, right? I think it's important. I I think a lot of golfers get injured. They're sitting in a cart, they stand up to go hit the, you know, they haven't warmed up, they haven't done anything before the round. But these are just things that I, I, I do for myself. But t-spine mobility and then like o obviously being able to stabilize the lumbar spine, I think are two important things when it comes to a rotation. What other things do you think people can do maybe as golfers that could help either prevent injury and or help them become maybe, you know, more mobile?

Jordan (24m 49s):

Yeah, that's a great question. I, I, I shake my head 'cause golf is so unbelievably complex and they're probably, if you think about athlete, I think athletes of are sensory motor savants. Like when I see a really good athlete, I think of like Rainman, but just with movement. And when I think of that, I think, I think a handful of golfers really, really fit that bill. Like I've heard a story about Fred Couples used to put, someone used to put loops of tape under his grip and then put the grip on and hand it to him and ask him how many revolutions of tape were under his grip. Yeah, yeah.

Brian (25m 26s):

The wraps when they wrapped the grips. Yeah. Got yeah. Yeah. And

Jordan (25m 29s):

He could, he could tell you, and we're talking, I don't know, eighth of an inch, half a centimeter difference. And he could tell you without fail every single time. So now go, okay, golf. And an interesting task and, and I like it because it's not, you know, it's maybe not as expressive of what, what some people might consider more primal or natural movements. Like obviously sprinting maybe a little bit technically upgraded normal gait cycle you could refer to it as, or throwing javelin. These are all fairly fluid motions that can be replicated and that we're kind of built for. But golf is just a meu of different, it's, I don't know what the guy was thinking who put this together, but, so I think hip mobility is massively underrated.

Jordan (26m 15s):

So your ability to move the pelvis through the frontal plane. 'cause a lot of times when we think hip and shoulder mobility, we just think of like the distal appendage. Like if I think shoulder mobility, I just think of my arm moving around, but it's like your arm moves in something that also needs to move, right? Your arm moves inside your shoulder blade and there's a lot that goes into what moves your shoulder blade around. So when you look at hip mobility, you can look at it from either like a close or an open chain and it's not just internal rotation, which is often the case when we're lifting weights. It's like we wanna improve internal rotation. 'cause internal rotation allows us to produce force. You want to have good variability of movement, right? You want to, you want to be choosing your technique not being forced into your technique by a lack of access to a particular range.

Jordan (26m 59s):

So frontal plane movement of the pelvis is big, being able to move your pelvis side to side. But if you want to have your knees and low back in a good, you know, in good standing long term, you're going to need the femur to be able to rotate within that hip socket as the hip socket moves around the femur head, right? A lot of times people think of like a rotation either at the hip or shoulder and they think about like, you know, exercises like external rotation. It's like, well, I'm just moving my arm around. But in the case of sport, and especially golf, the, the, the, the analogy would be if I, my hand was fixed, I'm just grabbing the microphone here and then I had to move my body around. It's like if I do this and I'm just, for those of you who can't see, I'm just like moving my body around.

Jordan (27m 45s):

It's, it's, it's rotation on a fixed femur. And I think, so if I were to prioritize the big ones for golfers, I would say closed chain rotation drills to make sure that you can get adequate internal and external rotation with the foot on the ground. There's no point in trying to improve range of motion with your foot in the air into internal and external rotation. Because even I, not a great golfer whenever I hit the golf club, both of my feet stay on the ground And, you know, not by, not by much because I'm not a good golfer, but even I know that they should probably both stay on the ground. So that's a big one. I think the second one would be direct core work.

Jordan (28m 25s):

There's, there's a lot of sports and rehabilitation especially we deal with, with sports that are maybe more prone or more sensitive to lower back issues. Basketball comes to mind, golf is a probably at the top of the list actually. We get this, we get it stuck in our head that the strengthening we need to do is very remedial and very static, right? So the, a lot of times people are doing bird dogs and side planks and curl ups and these very geriatric type movements or anti movements if you will, right? Limiting the amount of movement at the, at the lumbar spine, which I think is the furthest thing from sports specific, especially when it comes to golf because, you know, golf is a very, it's, it's static overcome by dynamic.

Jordan (29m 13s):

So you kind of have this moment of stiffness when you make contact with the ball that is preceded by a ton of aggressive rotation. And that's where you're going to need your core muscles to be, you know, the most active. You never trying to keep your, you know, your basically using your rib cage and your pelvis as a slingshot and moving one away from the other and creating a lot of eccentric potential as you, as you wind up your backswing. And then moving through a lot of concentric ac acceleration as you move through your follow through. And I think training the core directly, like the way a bodybuilder would train it with, you know, crunches and side bends and curtain and like, and

Brian (29m 54s):

Rollouts like extension flexion stuff. Yeah,

Jordan (29m 58s):

Flexion extension, but dynamic, right? So moving from insertion to origin and all three planes, right? So doing side flexion things. So frontal plane movement, doing rotational things, right? Transverse plane movement, doing flexion extension, sagittal plane, things like rollouts or med ball slams. I think that's where a golfers leave and athletes in general leave a lot to be desired is that their, their preferred method of core training is way too static. Where a lot of times in sports, the, it's our appendages that are static, our arms and our legs stiffen up while our trunk is very dynamic, right? Like I think of like a, like a football player about to get tackled stiff arming someone.

Jordan (30m 40s):

The core needs to be able to be malleable while this, you know, the arm and the shoulder need to be very rigid. Where a lot of times we see, you know, progressions in exercise and strength and conditioning for sport around the core being the exact opposite principles where it's like, you know, we might have the arms moving around in a bird dog and the, and the shoulders are flexing and extending and the hips are flexing, extending while the neutral or the lumbar spine is maintained motionless. And that's the cue where it's like, well that's not gonna prepare anyone for anything that's gonna prepare you for the bird dog Olympics. But that's about it. So

Brian (31m 14s):

I like, I like using bird talking.

Jordan (31m 16s):

Yeah. And, and hey, to a certain degree it's all about preference. But when we, we dig into like the sport science of it and the applicability and the transferability into sport, there are, you know, it's a completely different beast when you go from resisting your own body weight at no acceleration to trying to use that midsection to create the most amount of force possible. And then it goes right back to our equation again of applied force greater than tissue tolerance.

Brian (31m 43s):

So would something like you said all different planes of motion, so would you say like, like a med ball throw, like where you're just like rotating sort of thing, like where you're de ca accelerating then catching it to decelerate, sort of something like that. Is, is that what you're

Jordan (32m 2s):

Sort of I would go, I would, so I think you get a lot of that in golf already. You get a and you get, what I like about golf when I like about throwing sports in general is you get what you get a true concentric phase. 'cause a lot of times concentrics are mediated by the fact that you're just had, you know, there's a point in a repetition in the gym where the muscle is shortened and then has to begin to lengthen. But there's no underloading phase with golf. There's a massive underloading phase, right? Because you hit the ball and then you just need to slow down pitching. It's a very similar sensation. The ball has left your hand. Now you need to switch from gas to brake pedal, right? Very, very quickly. So in the gym, you know, the idea that you need to experience an underloading phase I think might be a little bit too, like the thing that you're doing already.

Jordan (32m 47s):

I'm literally talking about like follow a bodybuilder around the gym when they train their core and do the things they do, like rope crunches, single arm loaded side bends, some sort of twisting motion resistant. I mean I'm a fan of like a half kneeling wood choppers low to high, right? That would be a good variability for a golfer that's going high to low a lot. And you'll see the asymmetry of like all the, you know, on the side they follow through on, they're probably better going low to high because as the ball makes contact and they can continue their follow through, that oblique sling on that side is used to being able to move through from low to high under the velocity or force created by the acceleration after the ball is swung.

Jordan (33m 34s):

And then you'll see the exact opposite on the other side, right? If you wind up over here, over your right shoulder and you take that same person and put 'em in, you know, right hip extension in a lunge and have 'em start low and then come high with a rope, they are gonna fall in their face. They have no idea where they are, but you put 'em in the, in the shape that they're used to and then they're, they're rock solid. And the goal is not to create symmetry, but to create variability to have them be able to just start to generate torque again between the pelvis and the rib cage. And then that'll allow you to kind of keep it on the tracks.

Brian (34m 8s):

Okay, maybe we should start a golf class.

Jordan (34m 11s):

I'd be so bored, I please don't, I'll, I'll help write the program but don't make me golf.

Brian (34m 17s):

You'll be the face of it.

Jordan (34m 18s):

Oh my god, you can, you know, you wanna sell. This does not go well at golf. This is not, this is not allowed in golf courses. New

Brian (34m 25s):

Age golfer, you know?

Jordan (34m 27s):

Yeah. Call Bryson de Shambo. Yeah, he's got arms, arms bigger than me probably because they weren't drug testing during covid.

Brian (34m 33s):

No, he lost some weight. He, he, you know, he went, he was going crazy there trying to create all this speed and I think he got to a point where he was creating so much speed and he wasn't controlling it like he was hitting it over the map. And he realized that he, when he got to a certain point, there was like a sweet spot, you know, a certain ball speed that he got. He was like, okay, I can't really go past this ball speed 'cause I can't control it.

Jordan (34m 55s):

Yeah. And then the drug testers stopped. It started coming around again after Covid and then he started getting small again. So yeah, maybe that has something to do with, oh yeah, no, I gotta slow down the ball speed. I can't control it. No, it's 'cause wa is coming around again. And, you know, they're coming.

Brian (35m 10s):

Well that could be true. What have you changed? I like this question. What have you changed your mind about let's say in the past 10 years? Like one or two things. What have I

Jordan (35m 22s):

Changed, changed my mind about I'm pretty stubborn. No, I'm sure it's a long list. I've shifted focuses. I think I, I think a lot of the things that I believed in early in my career, I believed it off the backs of experience, And, what had worked for me and I've been weight training since I was 15. And like the first day in the gym I was like, this is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Like, I don't know how yet, but I was so, I was very like ahead of the learning curve early. So I had a lot of practical experience by the time I hit grad school and, but yeah, part of it is learning a lot more.

Jordan (36m 6s):

Part of it is experiencing a lot more, I would say a larger part of it is experience a lot more. But I think I've shifted focuses. I really, I would say my focus now is far more on exercise programming and exercise selection than exercise execution. Where early in my career I think I was very focused on the nuances of exercise execution, which I still like to, you know, kind of nerd out and try different things and all that. But I would say that's something that's definitely a noticeable shift in my attention when I work with people. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could fix this, but is it something we need to fix? Is my fix just putting you in a similar position that's better constrained for your abilities that I don't need to worry about you thinking, right?

Jordan (36m 54s):

I can actually just have you work. So that would be one that kind of jumps off the page. I probably do way less manual therapy now than I did even with the clientele that I, I would say, especially with the clientele that I work with and I, I maybe advise people to move away from that. I, I pretty much do as much manual therapy as my clients or patients or athletes. Like, and then I do the rest is just exercise because, and I think that is something from a rehabs, whether you're a physical therapist or a chiropractor, I think it's like, you know, if when you start to see the long term changes you can make in a very short window of time with well prescribed ex exercises.

Jordan (37m 35s):

And part and part why i I shifted my focus towards exercise selection was when I started to delve into more prescriptive exercises that weren't just corrective and underload. I started to get way better result. And as a byproduct, Now I do far less manual therapy that I have, there's still a, there's still an analgesic effect to it that I, I will lean on and, and I use my hands quite often, but not nearly as often as I had before. So those are two that jump off the page. I'm trying to actually answer your question is there's something I've changed my mind on. Yeah. Like it, it could even be nutrition, you know, or it could be, it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, you know, you could think about it. we can come back to it.

Jordan (38m 16s):

Yeah. I mean nutrition would probably be, that's tough. I, I've, I think the, I've, I I, I have a less bias opinion about nutrition and I think I'm more influenced by the research because it's not my formal training. So I have more of like a, okay, yeah, I, my protein intake is way higher than it used to be. I think I was one who kind of bought into, not necessarily that protein was bad, but that you didn't need as much of it as people thought. And I had people who were around me who were very well experienced, who were like, nah, you should probably eat more than like a gram per kilogram of body weight. And I've seen some really good results personally in, in pushing that paradigm.

Jordan (38m 57s):

So that's something that I used to think like, oh, okay, like protein, sure, whatever gram per kilogram, that seems fine. And, now I'm over a gram per pound, which has been super like a noticeable difference. Very useful in my training. and Recovery, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about it 'cause I do wanna find, hopefully find something that I've like 180 on, but I, I'm stubborn. I know. That'll be tough.

Brian (39m 23s):

What are you, what are you weighing at right Now?

Jordan (39m 26s):

I'm waking up from 2 71 in the morning. Okay. So,

Brian (39m 30s):

And like I'm a big, I I like routines. I'm a big routine guy. What's like a, I know I you're laughing you what's like your routine and like, do you have a morning or an evening routine and also like your training splits right

Jordan (39m 48s):

Now? Yeah, I, I'm laughing because I, I I tr I travel so much that it's very difficult Yeah. To keep a routine. I, like, I have milestones I want to hit, like, you know, I now in this phase of training, I'm up to 350 grams of protein a day. Jesus. Yeah. I mean, but you know, at, at two 70 it's about one point. Yeah. Two, I forgot that you weigh 2, 2 7,

Brian (40m 12s):

Forgot. Yeah, I'm thinking about myself. I'm 180, so

Jordan (40m 15s):

Yeah. So it's, but you know, if, if I'm, if I'm here in Toronto Yeah. Normal up until re yeah, up at 4, 4 30 I get breakfast together, which is usually, I do like a cream of rice, which works out to be like 40, 50 grams of carbs. And I put 40, 50 pounds away, put a microwave of a cup of a half of berries in there, eat that, drive to the gym, train, come home a pound of bison, about 90 grams of carb, 90 grams of carbs and rice.

Brian (40m 53s):

So bison with rice.

Jordan (40m 55s):

Bison with rice. Yeah. So that's, that's good for, with the rice, about a hundred grams of protein per meal. About 80, 90 grams of carbs, 40 grams of fat. I do two of those meals a day. I do two of the creamer rice meals a day and I do a can or two of canned chicken, which are 50 grams of protein per, so that puts me right at, yeah, three 50. It's a simple man, like I, I don't know, it's, and then train and then on travel days it's like I, I have habits that I get into. I wouldn't say they're necessarily routines, but I've traveled so much that, you know, it's, i, if I'm traveling across time zones, I do something different than I'm traveling within time zones. Like if I'm traveling within a time zone, I'll make sure I train beforehand if I can help it.

Jordan (41m 38s):

Unless I'm going to a place where I really like the gym and then I'll train after just 'cause I want to train at the gym. But if I travel across time zones, regardless, like my rules, regardless of when I land And, what time it is And, what time it is when I left, I have to train first thing, you know, supplementation wise I find vitamin D helpful. Melatonin on deck. I usually have no trouble getting to sleep 'cause I'm always so tired. But there, there's definitely like habits when I'm home and habits when I'm traveling. And then my habits at home will depend on my pending traveling schedule as well. Like, it's, it's a very fluid process, but I've somehow been able to with, I dunno, I think I crunched the numbers the other day in the last four years.

Jordan (42m 19s):

I'm somewhere over, I'm somewhere over 750,000 kilometers in the air since 2020, which probably puts me over a million in the last, since 2017. So I've somehow been able to like, keep doing the stuff I like to do, you know, being able to manipulate the variables I want when I want, if I wanna lean out, I, I, I know how to change those habits. If I want to gain weight, I know how to change those habits. But as far as routines, man, I'm a, I'm the worst person to ask for that.

Brian (42m 49s):

Well, I'll tell you, it is not, I, I don't travel a lot, but I gotta imagine it took a, there's an adjustment in like, you know, you talk about recovery, making sure that you get good sleep and when you're traveling a lot, I, I bet that could be, you know, different time zones and trying to, trying to make that work. It's not easy. But

Jordan (43m 5s):

There was a point, there was a point early, it's like, I mean I hate saying it's like everything, but if you do it enough, like last year for example, I did 210,000 kilometers in the air and I was on 84 86 flights, which average out to a flight every four days. And it's just the jet lag becomes less apparent. The my ability to just fall asleep and wake up when I have to become, it becomes easier. And there's just different things you prioritize like hydration when you start to understand a little bit around like cabin pressure, And, you know, maximum velocities and all that. Like, you know, there might be times strategically where I don't have carbohydrates for a few days leading into a long haul flight.

Jordan (43m 48s):

Like I know that pressure's going to increase inflammation and I know if I'm holding more water than I have to, like there's just, there's just little things you pick up along the way that really over time when that becomes your life and career, it's becomes super useful to help just keep things on check. I keep things in check

Brian (44m 4s):

Training split if you, let's just, yeah. Do, I'm sure it's changed through the years, but let's just say right now, what would you say your training split is?

Jordan (44m 11s):

Yeah, so I, I run a push pull legs, arms split. So I, I put an additional arm day which looks in some ways like an additional push day. Like it's a shoulder focus push. I've had like a myriad of injuries to both shoulders. And I find being able to train arms with some, with some reserve. 'cause a lot of times arms, bicep triceps and delts will sort of get deprioritized in a push pull leg split into later within a session, which kind of leaves limited resources as far as energy, especially when they're following such a large movements. So for me it's definitely been a staple of that.

Jordan (44m 51s):

Like push pull legs, arms, the arm day might be intermittent as like almost like an active rest day and I might move that around, but definitely push pull legs is kind of the cornerstone. But arms is probably something I'm doing in a cyclical basis on, you know, four or five day rotation. Okay. So hitting it twi twice a week you're doing that? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know what, I think part of it is, part of it's expediency, but I think for me, a large part of it is when exercise execution is at a high level and you're very confident in training to failure and you're very confident to train to failure with the exercises you've selected. That's big, right?

Jordan (45m 32s):

Because I, failure has different definitions per person, per movement. So for me it's like I know what the movements I have that I can really, unless they're strategically put in there for some sort of secondary benefit other than hypertrophy stimulus or strength or what have you. I, I have a concerted effort which only leaves my sessions 45 minutes to an hour and 15 per day. But I get a more effective volume through frequency rather than through a single session. Right. Because it's like, you know, if you start handling heavier weights and I'm not as strong as I once was, but on average, you know, the weights that I'd be managing for multi-joint exercises are, are heavy. They're your ability to keep turning those over set after set within a single session just tanks, you know, a couple, couple of heavy sets to failure on a compound lower body movement or something like the, the rest of the session has a very abbreviated timeline, right?

Jordan (46m 30s):

I the second I'm done, my second working set of my second exercise, if that's the, the model I'm going with, I maybe have 35 minutes of gas left in the tank. And that's not necessarily a, a commentary on the gas tank as much as it is a commentary on the, as the, on the foot to the floor. Like there is a lot of torque, quite literally physically generated lifting heavier weight. So I think it's something where if you are a novice, like if someone is listening and there might be new to lifting weights, maybe full body splits three to four days a week. And then as you progress going to something like an upper day and a lower day, and then as you progress again, then you can go into push pull legs and I'm at a point where, you know, push pull legs and an arms allows me to just kind of stoke the fire.

Jordan (47m 15s):

I think like a bicycle wheel spinning after you've changed it. Like yeah, early days you're gonna have to like, you know, when you first start training, there's, there's, you can be in the gym for longer, but once that thing is spinning you wanna just tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. That's all, that's all it really takes to keep it, keep it spinning. So that's, that's kind of my take on my training split right now. And I gotta say for the last couple of years that's been more or less the, the, the, the framework of it

Brian (47m 40s):

In your, in your off days. So you, you typically take a couple days off in your off days or just complete off days, right? You're not doing anything, are you doing

Jordan (47m 49s):

It's tough off days are usually travel days. Yeah. Which are not. And so off days and travel days are not rest days. And then it, it, to me it's, there's a psychological component to my training that supersedes any sort of desired end result physiologically. So there'll be months where I train every single day. 'cause I just need to, to keep my head on straight because I'm traveling, like, you know, I'm home for a few days and I'm like, oh, okay. Like, you know, I gotta, if I'm gonna deadlift, I try and keep that, you know, as far away from any long haul flights as I can. I've been lucky this year on long hauls, but you know, later in the year it's gonna be an issue. But then it's a matter of like, okay, well I have, I have blind to the west coast probably get better sleep if I land at nine and if I go train than if I don't go train at all.

Jordan (48m 40s):

So, you know, what am I, what is the net benefit of me getting terrible sleep on this annoying three hour time swing or me training for the 13th day in a row? I'm like, honestly, probably better for me to get better sleep if I'm gonna be out there for a handful of days. So I'll take the l on training 13 days in a row to get better sleep that night as a byproduct of training. So it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of give and take. But yeah, rest days for me are usually, rest days are usually off days. Every now and then I'll sit in a sauna or something, but I, the luxury of time is not afforded to be that often. So for me it's usually, oh okay, I'm on a plane for the, I'm on a plane for 20 hours.

Jordan (49m 24s):

Well there it goes the whole day and I'll train when I get back in my brain. I still train the same day. But it's, yeah, that is not optimized, that is not optimized for physiology, that's optimized for psychology.

Brian (49m 41s):

Question, best exercise for glutes. What would you say if you, if you were going to,

Jordan (49m 46s):

If I had one? Yeah, either something loaded or something lengthened. It's kind of a, a good rule of thumb if we're trying to think about, you know, if I could do one exercise forever for a particular muscle group, I would have to say

Brian (50m 3s):

Deadlifts.

Jordan (50m 4s):

That's something loaded. Yeah, it's something loaded for sure that would, that would do the trick. Yeah, I mean either a hinge, a squat or a single leg movement. I think I would probably tend towards a single leg movement because it's gonna bring with it some ancillary attributes. You'll get plenty of hypertrophy stimulus, you'll get good length of the muscle, but you'll also get some movement variability that could potentially allow you to load that more long term. So, you know, a, a contralateral, so a dumbbell in the opposite hand of the foot that's forward, some sort of step up movement that, you know, has a dumbbell that's strapped to the opposite hand of the hip that's of the hip of the foot that's on the bench.

Jordan (50m 48s):

And that'll allow you, you know, to create some of that good eccentric internal rotation of the glute, get some good frontal plane movement of the pelvis, you know, force you to create, you know, a, a fairly active foot. So I think that is plus being a really good driver of, of hypertrophy, I think that would probably be something where most people are gonna suck at it. When at the beginning most people are gonna take, it's gonna improve their coordination, it's gonna improve their mobility, it's gonna improve their stability, but it'll also improve, you know, it'll improve what we're looking for. We, it'll improve, you know, muscle cross-section, layer of the glute. So I think that would, if I put like a step up, put on the spot, like

Brian (51m 25s):

A step up,

Jordan (51m 26s):

Step up, step up, you can either do it in a Smith machine or you can do it with a dumbbell in one hand, stabilizing yourself on another hand, or you can do it with a cable. But I would say step ups are pretty hard to beat, in my opinion.

Brian (51m 42s):

Do you believe in stretching the hamstrings because they're, since they're a, a long muscle,

Jordan (51m 50s):

Eh Yeah, yeah. It is always a psychology physiology thing. Like, you know, my belief in stretching them personally, no, I, and I don't suffer from tight hamstrings because I, I like to think at least I have a working, I have a re I operate in a position where the result of my hypothesis is true, is as true as I need it to be. Which means it's a really sensitive way of me saying, I think I know why hamstring get tight and mine are tight because I don't do the things that, cause most people's hamstrings get tight. So hamstring tightness has more to do with the position of the pelvis than any sort of transient shortening or lengthening or, or whatever the, the common adage is.

Jordan (52m 32s):

So stretching the hamstrings is gonna do nothing to improve the awareness of the position of the pelvis. And if we can do that, if we can stabilize the pelvis better, more effectively against more force, a lot of times people are no longer inhibited by that sensation. Now most people you know who might be listening to this and thinking, well why arm a hamstrings tight a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're technically just falling over all the time. Right. And the mus,

Brian (53m 3s):

I was just gonna say, sorry to interrupt you. Is it, is it mainly, would it be their lateral hamstring that is typically tight and that you maybe can release or like thoughts around that?

Jordan (53m 15s):

Okay, so you're not so No, it's a good, it's a really pointed question and, and a really good question at that. So there's your lateral hamstring. So your biceps femoris the two heads, they are the dominant hip extender of the hamstring group and they also carry with it this property of lateral rotation of the tibia So. they can point the toes outward or are shortened as a byproduct of the toes being pointed outward. And the difference in the verbiage there is important. And those two attributes usually lead to those hamstrings being tighter than the medial semimembranosus, semi tendinosis.

Jordan (53m 56s):

But it's, it's more to do with the fact that if you take someone who might be relatively deconditioned, right? That you take a person who is not that strong, maybe hasn't been to the gym, maybe you know, is a bit overweight, their body and the autonomic nervous system is organizing their skeleton in a way to constantly be sopping them from falling over. Right. So, they are, as Kyle Baxter would say, weaker than the forces of gravity acting on them. And, what does a skeleton do when it's starting to decelerate? It externally rotates. Everything opens up. It's a break. Right? So, you know, pronation and internal rotation is a gas pedal. So when we're dealing with someone who's reacting to their center of mass being outside of their base support in front of them due to the relative deconditioning and the fact that they carry a little bit more excess body weight, the nervous system puts the skeleton in a place that is the, a massive skeletal brake pedal, which means the feeder off to the side.

Jordan (54m 59s):

The hips are externally rotated, the pelvis is dumped forward, right? The, the shoulder blades might be pinned back and the shoulders are internally rotated as a byproduct of the scapula is retracting or externally rotated. So when we see that, yes, it is the lateral hamstring, but without creating a, an ability to internally rotate, which is force production without, without building strength, their, their nervous system is going to choose to fall into its structure over and over and over again. So we can release the lateral hamstring, it can feel good, but if the pelvis goes back into the same position and it dumps forward and pulls up the ischial tuberosity, which is the origin of the lateral hamstring and as it pulls up on that, it's going to use the hamstring more as a hip extender than the glute.

Jordan (55m 47s):

And then if the skeleton is deciding that the feet need to give us a broader base of support as we walk, the tibia is gonna laterally rotate. And then that same biceps femme that's gonna be used more in extending the hip as we disadvantage the glute, as our pelvis jumps into anterior pelvic tilt and our lumbar spine and then goes into excessive hyper lordosis or hyper lordosis, excessive lordosis, then all of a sudden we have an overworked lateral hamstering at the hip and we have an a shortened pre shortened O lateral hamstring at the tibia So, we have that lateral rotation, we have an anterior tilt, we get overuse of extension at the hip from the hamstring rather than the glue to the adductor. And then you get this thing where, oh, it feels good when I stretch my hamstrings.

Jordan (56m 27s):

It's like, yeah, maybe transiently to get you into these better positions. We do that. But once we've kind of, you know, removed that first Tumblr in the barrel to really unlock that mechanism, we need to, we need to be able to better control the center of mass. And a lot of times that's gonna be just getting stronger in better position.

Brian (56m 48s):

Well said. So, okay. That was good. I will say some of the stuff that I'm learning as far as like to be applied is interesting. Like, for example, like a prerequisite for a deadlift. You would never think someone would say, well you should do a body weight pull up. But that's something that you talked about. I you, you've talked about that before. Is that something that you align yourself with?

Jordan (57m 14s):

Yeah, I mean it's a good safeguard. Yeah. Right. Like it's, I could deadlifting is, it's funny 'cause I remember, I forget who it was, maybe it was Robert Obert on the Joe Rogan show and he was a competitive strongman, or he was a competitive strongman athlete and they were discussing deadlifts and they were discussing the potential like dangers associated with him. And it is in the gym. It's gonna be the exercise that has the greatest amount of sheer force on a lumbar spine. And if we, the problem that a lot of people don't, or a lot of people don't consider what the, how to interpret the resting state of someone's nervous system because it's quite an abstract thought to think.

Jordan (57m 59s):

But if you, you're dealing with someone who is overweight, who is relatively deconditioned, and I'm thinking of a return on the investment of my time from an exercise perspective. I don't know if taking someone who's standing up exhibits the attributes of someone who's falling over, I don't know how much benefit I'm going to get of taking that person and then tipping them over. Right? So, you know, and there could be a point where, and we see this all the time, like we see less than favorable body compositions at the pinnacle of strength sports, right? I would, no one has abs that's no one who squats over a thousand pounds has abs visible, right?

Jordan (58m 40s):

It is just not, it's not just how, it's just not how it works, right? You get a couple 900 pound guys, some guys that are close that are, that are relatively lean, but like when you're talking the strongest guys in the world, their center of mass is truly within their base support. They're very upright squatters and they have a very stable platform to do it up. But you get those same guys to bend over and do a deadlift. You have guys who are pulling 700 pounds, guys that I can out deadlift that are squatting over a thousand because it's the same. And I'm gonna use the word very deliberately here. It's the same physics that makes 'em good squatters that makes 'em bad deadlifters. So, you know, for me it's like if you train general population clients and your clients don't absolutely want to deadlift all the time and it's like a milestone that they have to deadlift a particular weight and you have this person on a year contract and you want to just get them the best results possible in losing weight and building muscle in that first year, maybe in the first three years, maybe in the first five years, unless they come in and say, I saw this person deadlifting and I really want a deadlift.

Jordan (59m 43s):

I really don't see if I'm coaching someone three to four times a week or they're training three to four times a week, I don't see where the value is necessarily in most cases to putting an exercise like that in there because it's just gonna run into too many technical bottlenecks. It's like, I don't need them to think I need them to work. I need them to work for like three or four years. And then once you know it, after three or four years, hey look, there's that body weight pull up that we were, that we were after And, now we can control our center of mass. Now our lats in our spine can interact in a meaningful way. And then sure, yeah, you wanna deadlift, go deadlift. Great. It's just, people are very dogmatic. There was like a point 10, 15 years ago where like every article was the king of all movements, the jack of all movements, the like, what is this royal family of movements?

Jordan (1h 0m 30s):

Who is this appointed monarchy? This, you know, this And it's like this, it's all, it's all bullshit. Like, it's all just this like fraud squats and the king. It's like, no, none of it is squats. It's like none of it, none of that stuff is true. And it's just, it's very hard to break away from like the blood and guts type of rah rah beat your chest type training, which like, hey, I lo love that stuff and I deadlift, it's my major compound movement in my training cycle. But it's like I do a lot of stuff that other people shouldn't do, right? So it's, you know, I I think it's something where it's a good axiom to follow. And I think if you, if people think about it logically and are trying to maximize the results of their clients, they find very quickly that a movement like that goes away and gets put on the back burner until which time where they've made a bunch of incremental progress elsewhere.

Jordan (1h 1m 20s):

And then usually it coincides with like, wow, the, I got my client down 40 pounds And, you know, their measurements are better, where they should be and down where they also should be. And I, you know, they're, they're, they're pretty lean Now, I think I need a really loadable exercise. Like great fed lift is there, but I bet you the pull ups gonna be there too.

Brian (1h 1m 39s):

Well, and one thing you talk about too is sort of this progressive approach where like for squats, like instead of going right to like a, a low bar squat or a high bar squat, you can actually start with like a counterbalance squat and then work your way to the goblet and then perhaps the front squat. And then, so like, I like that progressive approach where if they can't do the first thing, why would you have them do back squats if they can't do a counterbalance squat?

Jordan (1h 2m 5s):

Yeah, I mean, I, I am, my adage or axiom for that is, you know, you, you always want to progress the movement, not progress the load, right? Or you always wanna regress the pattern rather than regressing the load. So, you know, for the most part, most people who walk into a gym recreationally, and even up until you've reached the echelons of advanced, advanced lifters, the difference in loading particular tissues is, is trivial. But the amount that you load the system is meaningful. So it's like the difference between quad versus glute hypertrophy stimulus in a session where you decide to go from a front squat to a goblet squat or the amount of quad stimulus that is different between going from a front squat to a goblet squat.

Jordan (1h 2m 59s):

Yeah, you're gonna get a little bit more knee travel, but you're dealing with someone who maybe has recovery constraints. Like if I had, if I have a client who's traveling the, you know, two days, they gotta fly to Perth Australia, and in the program the day before I have front squats, I'm just gonna have them do heels, elevated goblet squats. Because the constraint now is like, if that person can hold 130 pounds, that's like the greatest goblet squat that I've ever heard of. This person would be front squatting 2 25 or 2 75, and then I'm gonna go stick 'em on a Qantas flight from SFO to to Perth and it's gonna be 17 and a half hours.

Jordan (1h 3m 40s):

It's like, well all I, what I didn't tell them to do was go front squat light. I didn't regress the load, I did, but I regressed the pattern, which as a proxy of the novel pattern, reduce the overall load, reduce the amount of fatigue debt that we would need to repay. And then with within the hypothesized constraints of recoverability of a 20 hour flight to Perth, it's actually longer than that, at least from where we're at. But now I'm, you know, I'm, I'm more on track than I would've been if I just decided to check the box that day and hit my whatever, three by five at 2 75 front spot.

Brian (1h 4m 20s):

This is great. A couple more questions then we'll close it. I just lost my train of thought. No I didn't All, right? So this is a question I asked all my guests. If you were gonna give one tip to someone who's maybe gotten a lot of shape and they're trying to get their body back to what it once was 10, 15 years ago, what one tip would you give them?

Jordan (1h 4m 43s):

Do stuff you enjoy, number one, across the board, whether it's, if it's someone who's an an avid lifter of weights or you just have to do the stuff you like, 'cause that's gonna be the stuff you do. That's like, that's really, I think that's the, that is the, that is the under, that is the unspoken truth about discipline is that people who do the things that other people find difficult, these people have just found enjoyment in. And that's, that's, that is. And so it's not, and I, I I'm not, I I don't want to add to the noise of like discipline versus motivation. 'cause I think it's

Jordan (1h 5m 23s):

Such a silly way to, people

Jordan (1h 5m 25s):

Just voice their opinion about something to create content and it's nauseating and I don't care for it. But there are, there are things that people

Jordan (1h 5m 35s):

Deem difficult.

Jordan (1h 5m 36s):

Like, you know, Jocko willing comes to mind as he's this sort of this prominent figure in whatever digital space Yeah, this is. And it's like, oh, he wakes up early and trains. It's like,

Jordan (1h 5m 47s):

You know,

Jordan (1h 5m 47s):

He enjoys that, right?

Jordan (1h 5m 49s):

And you can, you can listen and I

Jordan (1h 5m 50s):

Don't, I don't know him personally and I don't wanna put words on his mouth and

Jordan (1h 5m 54s):

You, and there, there are days where

Jordan (1h 5m 56s):

He could say, and, and I don't know if this is true,

Jordan (1h 5m 59s):

He might say that he doesn't enjoy it,

Jordan (1h 6m 1s):

But he doesn't anyways.

Jordan (1h 6m 3s):

But he does enjoy it. Like, there's a thing where people go

Jordan (1h 6m 7s):

And, and I don't know if there's a, there's a handful of people who are very like, raw, raw figures in the industry and that they're, they're hyper successful and super, the net benefit. And I wanna get all that, all those disclaimers outta the way. 'cause I think these people are

Jordan (1h 6m 20s):

Unbelievably useful

Jordan (1h 6m 21s):

For

Jordan (1h 6m 22s):

Motivating

Jordan (1h 6m 23s):

Society to get stuff done. I think of like a Goggins esque character and it's like, you know, I'm not gonna put his YouTube video on and because I don't, I

Jordan (1h 6m 32s):

Don't need to be coerced into finding

Jordan (1h 6m 35s):

Enjoyment of things I, I don't like, I know how to find the intersection of useful for me and enjoying now if he can be the thing that catalyzes someone into realizing there's enjoyment in something that fucking rights man. Like I have no, I have no bone to pick with any of these guys. I think they're doing great work. But I think what people need to realize

Jordan (1h 6m 53s):

If they are ever, you know, maybe a little bit

Jordan (1h 6m 58s):

Mystified by people like this and they don't find enjoyment in the things that they are, you know, advocating and doing and enjoy themselves,

Jordan (1h 7m 9s):

That they are not, that these people are not motivated, highly

Jordan (1h 7m 14s):

Motivated or highly disciplined people.

Jordan (1h 7m 17s):

They are simply doing it because

Jordan (1h 7m 18s):

They enjoy it. And we can sit here and be

Jordan (1h 7m 20s):

Like, no. He even says that's a lot of day, every day before he puts his shoes on and goes for a run. He says how much he hates it. Right? But he still enjoys it because, and whether it's the social credit that comes from us talking about him doing the thing and having, telling that story, that experience of that, of closing that loop and our involvement in it is the thing he enjoys. He enjoys being a public speaker. He enjoys being an author. He enjoys being. So whatever he's doing is an agent of his enjoyment, right? As a part of the corpus. He hasn't killed himself. He has not taken a gun to his, the, the, the his brainstem and blown his brains out.

Jordan (1h 8m 4s):

So there is, there is a net enjoyment in that. And I think it's

Jordan (1h 8m 9s):

Very difficult for people who are trying to get back into it, to,

Jordan (1h 8m 12s):

To really allow themselves to do stuff they enjoy. Which is, yeah. And I don't think it's of any fault of anyone. I don't think it's Goggin's fault, I don't think it's Jocko's fault, but I just think it's an, it needs to be understood that when you're watching these aspirational characters, what you're really watching and, and it's hard to understand because of the, the grit and the, and the callous and the the militant background. It's hard to understand that what they are doing is enjoying themselves. Right? The net benefit of Jocko's an empire, his podcast, all of that, his little Timex watch that he puts up after his kettleball, that is part enjoyment. And when people might not be cut from that green beret, marine, army cloth, navy seal cloth, I think they go get, get down on themselves because they're missing the point.

Jordan (1h 9m 5s):

Because the point is so thickly veiled behind this, Hmm, you gotta be the bitch like running on the side of the road that it's like, it is about enjoyment and it's like, I could very have easily just said, oh, enjoyment, do stuff you like, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, I think it's actually, it's, it's much deeper a problem than we give it credit for. Because if it, if it was, if it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be a problem. Like, the reason that the, the, your question is such a important question is because it doesn't have a really good answer, And. what we see to be a really good answer is it's there, it's the essence of the answer is there, it's right in front of us with every single person that we aspire to.

Jordan (1h 9m 51s):

That is an aspirational character in health and fitness that do, that does hard things. But what they've, the only thing that they've done is that's unique is they've made it enjoyable in some way, shape, or form. So that's my advice and that's my diatribe on it and I think there's something to that

Brian (1h 10m 9s):

Great way to wrap it up, Jordan.

Jordan (1h 10m 11s):

That's a good Yeah, but don't, don't, don't ask another question 'cause I'm just gonna yell some more. He's clearly like I, that old man yells at cloud's rev now.

Brian (1h 10m 22s):

Well we can do a part two

Jordan (1h 10m 24s):

Here for it always.

Brian (1h 10m 26s):

I'd love to. 'cause there's more. I do want to talk about best place for people to find you, Jordan.

Jordan (1h 10m 33s):

Yeah. Instagram at the Muscle Doc or shoot me an emailJordan@themuscledoc.com.

Brian (1h 10m 39s):

Yeah. And if you're looking for a, a cool certification, there's what Pres Script one, two is there, is there a three? Yeah,

Jordan (1h 10m 47s):

Level three is, we do hold that, that's a six day intensive down in Florida where you come with me to train. Oh, nice, nice. Off season NFL players prepping for the next season. That's really, yeah, that's really cool. It's, it's, you know, it's like Mike Tyson always said everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the face. So it's like kind of that. But on the coaching side,

Brian (1h 11m 5s):

That's cool. I like that. I was wondering if there was a live aspect, so that's cool. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Jordan, I appreciate it. You're probably gotta catch a flight, so I thanks for coming on the podcast. Of course, man. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned In, this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.

Dr. Jordan Shallow

Dr. Jordan Shallow D.C. is a Chiropractor, Strength and Conditioning Coach, Powerlifter and founder of both Pre-Script and RX'D RADIO.

Jordan currently works with teams, companies and individuals all over the world, lecturing, coaching and consulting on applied biomechanics, sports performance, and injury risk management.

https://themuscledoc.com/

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