0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): I always go back to kind of the behavioral perspective for the general population. How well does this strategy scale? In my opinion, independent of many people I speak with about this is that early time restricted eating would be a huge challenge. Say socially, like getting up, eating breakfast, you know, you can throughout the day cutting off mid-afternoon. If you think about most people's schedules, whether it's work, you know, family commitments school, you're coming home in the evening. Now you're having social opportunities with family or friends. You have increased access to food. You're relaxing a little bit. To me, that would be a very difficult time to, to not eat. It'd be much easier to not eat until mid-afternoon then to eat until mid-afternoon and stop. So even though something like early time-restricted eating might be kind of like on paper, a perfect program where like, okay, you have the shorter eating window. 1 (50s): You're shifting your calories earlier in the day. This is all good to me. On the behavioral side. For most people, it might be a big challenge. 0 (59s): Hello, and welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin. And I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was in five, 10, even 15 years ago, each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Dr. Grant Tinsley. He's the director of energy balance and body composition lab at Texas tech university. And we discussed the best ways to measure body composition, the effects of caffeine on working out, along with different types of fasting to apply to your lifestyle tips around completing a fast, his studies around resistance training muscle with intermittent fasting. 0 (1m 43s): We also discussed his fasting, eating and workout routine. This is in-depth interview with Dr. Grant is Lee. I really enjoyed meeting him and the interview. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. My name is Brian grin and I have Dr. Grant tins, Leon, welcome to the show. 1 (2m 4s): Thank you very much for having me. I'm happy to be here. 0 (2m 7s): Yeah. I'm happy to have you on, I was looking through all your research that you've done through the years, and I feel like we could, this podcast could go on for a long time talking about all the different studies that you've done and the papers that you've written. Maybe tell the audience a little bit about yourself and, and, and the type of things that you research and just a little bit of background. 1 (2m 27s): Yeah. So I'm currently an associate professor at Texas tech university out in Lubbock, Texas, far out west Texas. I've been here for, I guess, almost six years now, which is hard to believe prior to coming to Texas tech. I completed my PhD in kinesiology and exercise nutrition at Baylor university. And prior to that, I completed degrees in nutritional sciences, physiology and biomedical sciences. In addition to that, a lot of our work is I'll get into in a minute involves exercise. So I'm a certified strength and conditioning as well as a certified sports nutritionist. In terms of my lab, we have a very active lab. We currently have about 11 students working lab split across undergraduates master's degree students and doctoral students in our lab focuses on three main areas of research. 1 (3m 17s): One that I think we'll be discussing today is intermittent fasting. And we have a particular focus on intermittent fasting protocols, typically in the form of time-restricted eating and applying those inactive populations. Most commonly, those performing weight training or resistance training. Beyond that, we do a lot of work with body composition, assessment methods. So looking at the validity and reliability of novel devices and different ways, we can either make devices more accessible, say for practitioners in the field and people at home or ways we can go in the opposite direction and make our techniques more advanced or sort of laboratory or research settings. In addition to those areas of research, we conduct a decent amount of sports, nutrition research, looking at a dietary supplementation for say, improving metabolism, exercise performance, and so on. 1 (4m 7s): So that's a little bit about me. 0 (4m 8s): Yeah. I love that. And it sounds like you really enjoy what you do. It sounds like I would love to check it out and like research that stuff for a day. And I give you, I give you a ton of credit because the stuff that the research that you do can help people like myself and people that are out in the field coaching individuals to help, you know, get these individuals to get optimal results. 1 (4m 32s): Yeah, absolutely. And as you know, we briefly discussed offline before this it's it's, I feel fortunate to be an area of research where there is direct application to people and people, you know, want to talk to you about your research. I'm not, you know, over doing something and astrophysics. That's cool, but it might be harder to, to translate to the general population. 0 (4m 49s): Yeah. And one of the things you mentioned, and I wanted to touch on first was you talked about like measuring the best ways to measure body composition. And I, something that I do with my clients is I have them do a DEXA scan. And I'm just curious from your research, what are some of the best ways to do that? Both maybe in the home and then at, you know, obviously it may be at a facility with a DEXA scan. 1 (5m 13s): Yeah. Well, first I'll say it's impressive that you're able to have your clients get a DEXA scan. That's usually, you know, that's one of the best advices we had. If, if I had to recommend a single device, it would be DEXA. It's very accurate, very, it's very helpful that it provides segmental data. If you had access to all equipment, what we do, we use DEXA as part of our, what we'd use our true gold standard model, which is a multi compartment model. Most typically a four compartment model. And we essentially take the best characteristics of different devices and piece that together. So we're pulling some of the decks out, but some output from a bod pod or air displacement plethysmography to look at the volume of the body since Dex is kind of a two dimensional image, looking at the pixels and then similarly, a body water assessment. 1 (5m 59s): Since we have more water in our body than anything else, and then a calibrated body mass estimate. So using those bits and pieces, what we would view as our gold standard model, again, kind of uses the strengths of each of these techniques and combines them into a single estimate with all that said, DEXA is great. And if you're using the same device, the same technology across time Dex is definitely in the category of devices that can effectively track body composition. And again, if you need segmental data, that more advanced model I was talking about, doesn't provide segmental estimates. So you can make an argument that DEXA provides more data in that regard. If we were to pivot away from the, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of lab equipment down to the far other end of the spectrum, my most common recommendations for practitioners or just individuals in a kind of a low, I say, low resource setting, just in terms of access to his lab equipment. 1 (6m 54s): I think you can get really useful information with something as simpler, as simple as a flexible measuring tape skinfold calipers and body mass. And this isn't ideal. We all know there are limitations to body mass, but tracking body mass under very standardized conditions. So say morning after an overnight fast after voiding. And so on tracking, that will be one point of information. Another point of information would be simple limps or conferences where that's like upper arm thyme in addition to waist hips. And then if you pair that with some skin folds, you can get even more information. So if you're measuring say upper arm circumference and getting a skin thickness, which is just reflecting the thickness of the skin and the subcutaneous adipose tissue, then you can start kind of making some inferences just based off the raw values. 1 (7m 42s): So not trying necessarily to generate a body fat percentage that you could do that, but even looking at a particular region and saying, okay, if my upper arm circumference is increasing and my skinfold thickness is not increasing, then you can infer that, okay, I might be experiencing some hypertrophy, some muscle growth in my upper arm without adding fat at this location. And you could view that as an encouraging sign, if you're say in a, in a phase where you're trying to gain muscle. So I think sometimes people can make it, you know, in some ways too complicated or kind of some of these intermediate technologies like consumer grade bioimpedance, they might, certain ones might have a little bit of merit. We just conducted a study on those recently and we're analyzing the data, but sometimes I think it's better to just stick with something, you know, you can measure well, you, if you're trained, you can measure circumference. 1 (8m 29s): Well, you can measure a skim coat thickness as well. And just looking at those raw estimates, I think you can really get a lot of information from that. 0 (8m 36s): Yeah, no, that's helpful. And I agree, I think sometimes just going old school, right. Just doing measurements around, you know, the waist, the belly area, the arm, and a lot of these devices that are coming out where you, you know, like you mentioned, where like you're standing on them and they're giving you sort of maybe an, a body fat percentage of their hooked up to your phone. You're like you mentioned, you're just still doing research on those. And as far as the validity and how accurate they are. 1 (9m 3s): Yes, yes. And actually one side note I'll mention just cause we do a lot with 3d scanning, which is just kind of an interesting technology. There are an increasing number of phone apps where you can use your phone camera to take anthropometrics. So if you're not able to measure your own circumferences or you want like a machines reliability instead of a humans reliability, which depending on how train the person is, could be a good thing. Yeah. There are a number of apps now, and we're, we're looking at some of them in our current study as well, where either from kind of like a front image and a side image or from the person actually rotating, it can build a little avatar from the body and produce pretty reliable circumference estimates. So that's kind of a new method moving forward. That would be in some ways high-tech, but some ways, you know, it's accessible in your pocket or nearly everyone's pocket. 1 (9m 48s): So 0 (9m 48s): Is there a certain app that you would say, maybe take a look at, or you're just looking at that right now. 1 (9m 54s): We're looking at that right now. One that we're looking at is called me 360 by a company called size stream. And we've done some work with them in the past on their, you know, kind of large, I say research grade scanner. It actually originated in the fashion industry. And I think they're more popular over in Europe or sort of high-end boutique stores. You can go in and get a 3d scan and the store gets that information and can custom fit your clothes based on these measurements. So that's kind of where it started, but they've moved into the body composition space. And then now even into the phone app and there's certainly others besides those, but that's the one that we're currently looking at. 0 (10m 28s): Okay. MI 360. I'll check that out. That's really cool. All right. Well, on another note, let's get into some time restricted eating and I know you mentioned, you know, you hear time restricted eating, you hear intermittent fasting, maybe tell the audience what's the difference between the two. 1 (10m 48s): Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll, I'll preface this by saying my views on the terminology and fasting are in the process of being refined. I'm fortunate enough to be involved in a consensus feedback process that just started recently actually submitted, I think two days ago, my first round of feedback on this, but some great researchers in Germany are kind of collecting a bunch of the clinicians and researchers in the realm of fasting and trying to get, try and get us all to agree on terminology. You know, you have a lot of experience in this field. I'm sure you've seen people use one term and then you look at it more detail. You're like, oh, you're actually talking about something else. Or you're using this broad term to mean something very specific. So there's certainly not current agreement. And I'm hoping with this consensus process, we'll move towards that where we can say, okay, some people might solve a bone pick, but overall, most of us have agreed on, on this. 1 (11m 34s): So that's the preface. But as I would currently view it, I would view intermittent fasting as a very broad term, not implying a specific program, but a broad term for programs that focus on when you eat, not what you eat and programs that incur include recurring fast that are longer than a normal overnight fast. And course, we kind of hit a point already of the question, what isn't a normal overnight fast. There are some population level data here in the U S showing that on average, most people, you kind of, from the time they wake up till the time they go to bed. So it's been estimated that the median fasting period defined as like no caloric intake may be only around nine hours in the United States. So, you know, again, people eating over most, most of their waking hours. 1 (12m 18s): So I would view that just kind of broad concept on intermittent fasting, the three main subtypes, I would kind of define to be alternate day, fasting, periodic fasting, and then time-restricted eating. And in each of these categories, there are some, you know, different permutations alternate day fasting. For example, the early research was pure alternate day fasting. Like the name implies it's like you eat Monday, you do not eat Tuesday, Wednesday. You know, just like it sounds. But most of the research in recent years has been really modified alternate day fasting where you have a normal day of eating and on the so-called fasting day, you're usually consuming a small amount of calories about 25% of weight maintenance calories, typically as a single meal. 1 (12m 60s): So in that sense, you kind of have, after your normal day of eating, you go through a real, like overnight fast, say true, fast to lunch, then you break your fast at the small meal. And then another period of fasting say from lunch till the next ad libitum day. So obviously that, that could exert some divergent effects. So just point being, even within a category, as you know, there are different permutations. And 0 (13m 22s): Just, just on that note, that that's our interrupt you, what is your opinion of that? Because it just seems like it's, that's like a teaser, right? Like I feel like if I'm going to do alternate fasting, I'm going to not fast for that day instead of having what 25% of my daily caloric intake in a little Mia, I just feel like that's just going to spur almost more hunger, but what are your thoughts on that? 1 (13m 46s): Yeah, I think, I mean, in the research, it seemed like there was a pretty good rationale for when they added in that meal. Some of the early concerns were related to lean mass loss. So they saw, you know, some effects, beneficial effects as you'd expect on things like weight loss and some health markers with the pure alternate day fasting, but also saw some loss in lean mass. So the earliest documentation I saw in this literature for why they edit that meal is related to lean mass retention, impossibly compliance. You know, it's understandable that it's, it's challenging to not eat for calendar day psychologically. Like, okay, today's Thursday, I'm, I'm not eating today. So I think there, you know, it probably comes down to the individual at that point. Like, is it easier to have that little meal or is it again, like you were saying more of a tease where it's like, you know, I'd almost rather not keep anything, then just get like, you know, right. 1 (14m 31s): As teaser. 0 (14m 33s): Sorry. So go, so go ahead too. So we got alternate day fasting time, restricted eating, which is daily short-term fasts and then periodic fasting, periodic fasting. Would that be something where you're fasting for one or two days per week? 1 (14m 46s): Yes. And this admittedly in my categorization includes kind a variety of programs, but typically programs with a fast of 24 hours or longer implemented as infrequently as once every few months, or as frequently as up to a couple of days, a week in similar to alternate day fasting, there'll be programs I view as modified periodic fasting, where they are allowing some calorie intake. A big example would be something like the five, two diet with two, again, sort of modified fasting days. I would also currently like group in this category. Things like eat, stop, eat, where you're having like a 24 hour fast, which again, to draw a distinction with true alternate day fasting. That doesn't mean you're not eating on a calendar day. 1 (15m 27s): It's like, okay, I don't eat after dinner Wednesday. And then, you know, dinner Thursday, 0 (15m 32s): Dinner, dinner. 1 (15m 33s): Yeah. So programs like that as well. And then as you mentioned, time-restricted eating something I like about this programs is the consistency day to day because anyone listening to this here is like with the alternate day fasting, the periodic fasting, there's quite a bit of variability. It's like some days you're eating completely, normally other days you're not eating at all or barely eating. So I think a nice thing, but time restricted eating, and I think their data is sport. This is the consistency of eating schedule each day, where you just have some period, some number of hours where you're eating all your calories. You don't consume calories outside of that. And you just repeat that every day. So in my opinion, and even what we've seen our research, I think people can adapt to that more easily than these other programs. 0 (16m 11s): And when you do your research regarding fasting, you pretty much mean water fasting or is there some leeway as far as like black coffee or unsweetened tea or things that maybe have minimal if any clout calorie in them? 1 (16m 25s): Yeah. So in our studies, we have, we have defined it purely based on calories. So if it is a zero calorie beverage, whether it's caffeinated water, black coffee, unsweetened tea, then, then we allow that it, it seems like from anecdote and there may be some data to support the summit like that recently, but that, that enhances the ability of someone to complete the fast. We consistently receive that where they're like, if I was only consuming water, this would be hard, but if I'm able to have my black coffee or tea or caffeinated water, you know, this, this helps me get through. 0 (16m 56s): Yeah. I've heard it as like fasting training wheels. You know, maybe if you're starting out, it's good to use those tools to help you get through the fast I find just being that I've been fasting, you know, pretty much doing time, restricted feeding for so long that I could go either way. Really. I actually find too that I have to be a little bit careful with caffeine when I'm in a facet state, because I'm pretty sensitive to it. And it's like, you can just get like, you know, throttled up. You don't want to have it too late in the day. Let's just say that. 1 (17m 27s): Yeah, no, I agree. I wish I was sensitive to do. I'm very desensitized to it, but, but I agree, definitely cutting it off, say early afternoon at the latest, you know, minimize sleep disturbances and things of that nature. 0 (17m 40s): And so what has your research found regarding circadian rhythm? And is it, cause I get this question a lot. Is there like a perfect window to, if you're going to consume calories as far as insulin sensitivity and just a way to not affect maybe, you know, your sleep later on or, you know, is there a certain time period that would be beneficial. 1 (18m 4s): Yeah. So I'll say I'll answer this kind of in two parts, one, in terms of the actual clinical trials, we've run with, time-restricted eating, we have not tried to target early time-restricted eating, which is sort of the form of temperature to eating that kind of promotes this idea of alignment of nutrient intake with circadian rhythms in for anyone unfamiliar with early time-restricted eating. So my lights here, this would just be where the, the eating window shifted earlier in the day. So instead of like waiting until lunch and eating from lunch til mid evening to be waking up eating breakfast and eating until mid-afternoon and then cutting it off. So there have been some promising results with this early time, restricted eating again, kind of combining best practices from circadian rhythms, Krone nutrition with time-restricted eating. 1 (18m 50s): So the caveat is our, our studies have largely used kind of a traditional more like typically noon to 8:00 PM, 11 to 7:00 PM type window. So depending on how you look at it for, for some people, if they tend to eat late at night, then even that sort of normal program of eating noon date PM, that could be shifting things in a little bit of a beneficial direction in terms of chronobiology chronic nutrition. And just to make sure we're all on the same page, the general consensus is that consuming more of your calories earlier in the day would be better from a Krone nutrition standpoint, based some on epidemiological research and then some on more controlled research where individuals will ingest the same meal, say in the morning or at night, and then researchers will measure their metabolic responses. 1 (19m 39s): And overall the responses seem more favorable earlier in the day. But again, this is a little bit context dependent. If you're someone that tends to eat right up until bed, you're eating till 11:00 PM and you go on a time-restricted eating program where you're cutting off at 8:00 PM for you. That's actually shifting earlier, which isn't, you know, agreement with Krone nutrition principles in contrast. Other other people may not find that to be the case. So we haven't taught you that specifically my big deal in this area. I think there's actually reasonably strong evidence for Krono nutrition in these like acute meal testing settings. But I always go back to kind of the behavioral perspective for the general population. 1 (20m 20s): How well does this strategy scale? In my opinion, and the opinion of many people I speak with about this is that early time restricted eating would be a huge challenge. Say socially, by getting up eating breakfast, you know, you can throughout the day cutting off mid-afternoon. If you think about most people's schedules, whether it's work, you know, family commitments school, you're coming home in the evening. Now you're having social opportunities with family or friends, you have increased access to food. You're relaxing a little bit. To me, that would be a very difficult time to, to not eat. It'd be much easier to not eat until mid-afternoon then to eat until mid afternoon and stop. So even though something like early time restricted eating might be kind of like on paper, a perfect program where like, okay, you have the shorter eating window, you're shifting your calories earlier in the day. 1 (21m 5s): This is all good to me on the behavioral side. For most people, it might be a big challenge. 0 (21m 11s): Yeah, I totally agree. And I always say the best program as far as timing regarding when you're going to fast or when you're going to feast is based on what fits best for your schedule and how you can do it consistently over time. I always just say two rules of thumb. And I don't know what your thoughts on this was. Don't eat right when you get up. Cause you have that spike in cortisol and you just want to give your body time to wake up and don't eat right close to bedtime. Give yourself a few hours before you go to bed. Other than those rules of thumb. I think that there's a lot of, sort of, it's not so black and white, there's some gray area as far as like, what is best for your schedule. 1 (21m 47s): Yeah. And I'd agree, especially with, especially with the second one, I think, you know, on the individual level, it seems like there's quite a bit of variability on how easily sleep can get disturbed. But yeah, I think there is some evidence for, for not eating for several hours before bed and then, you know, personal preferences and scheduling all that. I'd probably defer to those factors on the breakfast that, you know, I wouldn't necessarily, if it's causing someone to like lose an hour of sleep to get up an hour earlier so that they can kind of be awake and all this before breakfast, you know, then you might have to weigh the pros and cons, but yeah, perfect world. I wouldn't take issue with either of those recommendations. 0 (22m 22s): Okay, cool. And I know you do a lot of research regarding time, restricted feeding and resistance training. And those are big areas that just for my own good. I always try to optimize those two areas and see what works best. And I'm curious too, about your opinion about some facet workouts and things like that. What would be best for muscle retention and hypertrophy, I guess, what, what have you learned through your research regarding those two issues? 1 (22m 48s): Yeah, so we have conducted, I believe it's up to five studies looking at resistance training in combination with time restricted eating kind of across different activity levels, everything from recreationally active up to highly trained individuals, many of whom identified as like natural bodybuilders. So we've seen kind of a full spectrum there. We've done studies in males and females, one caveat related to your question. Since you mentioned fast at training, all of our studies have placed the training window within the feeding window. So that was to kind of, you know, stick to traditional current best practices for say sports nutrition of pre-exercise fueling post-exercise recovery. 1 (23m 30s): With that said I'm aware of one study, which unfortunately got derailed by Kobe, but I believe is up and running again. That was actually looking at different time, restricted eating programs with the resistance training, either in the facet state or in the fed state to really tease out cause that there has not been a direct comparison there to my knowledge. And Dr. Andy Galpin out in California is the one who was running that. And again, they, they were shut down for longer, out in California than we were say here in Texas on the, on the data collection. So in our studies again with the caveat that this training was within the feeding window, we have not seen any detriment to the improvements in muscle performance, muscle size, overall fat free mass. 1 (24m 13s): When individuals are adhering to a time-restricted eating program of, of short as short as about seven and a half hours a day as compared to a control group that is consuming breakfast and eating calories over about 13 hours per day. So again, in, in mostly studies, including the most recent one we did here, we bring all participants in for supervised training. So we have our trainers walking them through our trainers are blinded to whether someone's in the fasting group or not. They're taking them through this program, encouraging them, making sure they're on a structured program, progressing the way they should. And again, with a similar overall calorie intake, a similar protein intake, we saw equivalent improvements in, in muscular strength, muscular endurance force production, again, fat free mass muscle, actual muscle thickness like measurement, the ultrasound specific muscle groups. 1 (25m 3s): And then depending on the study have seen fat loss in some studies. So the last one here is pretty interesting that the mean changes in body mass were, were zero and the two different time restricted feeding groups, but that it increase in fat free mass and a decrease in fat mass. Whereas the control group had a slight increase in body mass as well as fat free mass. There was one study looking more specifically at implementing like a similar calorie deficit with time-restricted eating in a traditional meal pattern, including breakfast consumption in there. There was no difference when the calories were acquainted. There was a similar amount over, over a short period. This was a shorter four week study, but similar weight and fat loss in both those groups. 1 (25m 47s): So overall be very comfortable saying programs with as short as a, say, seven, approximately seven hour eating window, definitely don't necessarily compromise in any way increases in lean mass and muscle performance. If say protein intake is sufficient and they're following a kind of well-structured evidence-based resistance training plan. 0 (26m 9s): And when you do these studies that there's obviously that takes some time, right? And you gotta really have a control group and make sure that all the variables are like in order, right? I mean, w what is, what is like the resources and the time that it takes to do stuff like this, 1 (26m 26s): It is very resource intensive. There's, there's a reason why we have other areas of research. If, if these were the only studies we did, it would just be, well, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be as predictive as we need to be, but yeah, it's very resource intensive, especially on the personnel. Some of these studies we've had funding for some we've just really self-funded, you know, like pay for supplies out of general lab funds. Th they're really the biggest cost are on personnel time. So, I mean, all the trainers meeting with participants ensure that they understand and are following the program. We, we track a bunch of different things. So like in our last one, we were tracking accelerometry. So they, you know, different points in this study, we were tracking all their movements to see if there were spontaneous changes in how much they move throughout the day, collecting dietary records, the actual in-lab assessment. 1 (27m 12s): So all these body composition assessment methods we're talking about before we're running all those at the beginning of the study, usually the middle of the study and the end of the study. So yeah, it, it's very intensive. It's, it's rewarding when it's done, but sometimes during the data collection collection, it can feel a little crushing. It's just so, so much, but, but it's nice then again, rewarding in the end that people are interested in results and they can hopefully benefit from them. 0 (27m 37s): Yeah. And I know you had, I don't know how recent it was. It might've been in 2021, but you did the effects of caffeine versus non-caffeinated pre-workout supplements that one caught my eye because I've never been a big, big pre-workout person, but I, I have been leaning towards doing some caffeine before a workout, or even some just a really clean supplement before some pre-workout before I get into maybe some amino acids and things like that. What are your thoughts on, on, on, you know, caffeinate diverse non-caffeinated 1 (28m 12s): Yeah. So we'll say, I'll say this study is under review. I'm hoping to receive a decision on it. Any, any day, I'll give you the results, but then I'll give you kind of a major caveat. So, one reason we wanted to conduct this study is because it's often thought that pre-workouts are only if effective only effective because of the caffeine. It's like there's caffeine, which is what matters. It would get people, you know, it's a stimulant, we'll get people feeling more energetic, they'll perform better in the gym. There's pretty good research on caffeine and exercise performance, kind of across different types of exercise. But the common view is that all other ingredients are just kind of junk. That's thrown in there for marketing purposes. And there's probably some truth to that, but there are a small number of other ingredients with some evidence of potentially being effective. 1 (28m 59s): So what we liked is that this particular manufacturer has a essentially identical pre-workout, one that's caffeinated and one that's non caffeinated. And it's generally kind of an evidence based formula in terms of the ingredients and the dosages. So we're really excited about this because we thought, you know, with the same manufacturer, the same sourcing of materials, all these miscellaneous factors, you have to think about with all of that controlled, we can really tease out caffeinated versus non caffeinated. So the caveats here is that this was a blinded study. So participants were receiving either placebo, the caffeinated or non-caffeinated, and they performed each of those conditions in a random order. But if you like pause for a second and think about the real-world effects, if you're say talking about someone, maybe not someone like yourself, but someone who's who's fully bought on. 1 (29m 41s): Pre-workouts like, yeah, I need my pre-workout. I have to have it. When I go to the gym, if they open up that tub and look in and it's empty and they're like, oh, you know, and they go to the gym, they, their performance very well, very likely. Exactly. So here in the lab, we try to take that away by having a placebo, we have the trainers who are blinded. So the trainers don't know, you know, which supplements someone has ingested. They're yelling at them. They're encouraging, like push, push, push, you know, all this on our devices, on all our tests. So that's good from a research control standpoint, but it limits the generalizability because it, it takes out kind of that psychological component. So again, depending on what, you know, it's viewed as good from a research perspective, but a consumer could say like, well, you know, I know whether or not I'm taking pre-workout, I'm not my roommates not giving me some liquid and not telling me if this is placebo or not, with all that Sam, what I can share at this point is it wasn't, we didn't see benefits across all exercise performance metrics, but we did see some improvements actually with both pre-workout supplements on lower body force production. 1 (30m 45s): So we, the only differences that really clearly emerged with the caffeinated diverse non-caffeinated related to subjective feelings of energy. So, you know, even though this, this was blinded in terms of administration, it's a little hard since caffeine does exert effects in your body. You know, this objectives kind of confirmed that at least some of the participants were feeling that I will give the caveat that we've run studies before, where after the study, after it's all done in blinded participant, come back and like, oh, can you tell me what, what supplement I took in this one condition? Cause I felt so good that day. We checked back our records and it's like the placebo supplement. So it's just flavored water, lots of interesting psychological things going on. 0 (31m 24s): Do you have an opinion on pre-workout like, just in general, like what, you know, and also obviously you'd like something like creating, which gets re, which has a ton of research out there regarding it. Any thoughts on like that or BCAs or any, any, 1 (31m 39s): Yeah, so I would say the category of pre-workout is probably too broad for me to give like a, a categorical thumbs up thumbs down. So I'd say, I think there are some supplements that have generally evidence-based ingredients in dosages. I think we're seeing a good push in the kind of sports supplement industry towards transparency where the actual dosages of each ingredients are listed. I'd be very wary of anything if the proprietary blend. So it's saying, you know, it's 15 grams of these 20 ingredients combined, but we're not telling you how much of each, there's no way. One. There's often a lot of junk in there you don't need, and there's no way to know if you're getting into evidence-based dose of the ingredients in there. So yeah, I don't want to make broad sweeping of statements, but I'd say there are some, I would be comfortable recommending if they're third party certified again, no proprietary blends evidence-based ingredients in dosages, but I'd say probably the majority, if I had to tell you that probably the majority would be in the do not recommend the category BCAs. 1 (32m 39s): There are, from my view, the literature, there are some very isolated benefits in some contexts related to maybe muscle recovery, muscle damage or soreness, but typically in context, again, getting back to this idea of laboratory environment, environment versus real world kind of environments where they're being compared to nothing, it's not like they're being compared to protein or whole foods or something, you know, people might be eating otherwise. So generally I would put those in the do not recommend category. If someone's consuming sufficient protein and high quality protein, if someone does want an amino acid supplement, I would push more towards an essential amino acid supplement, which would include the BCAs, but also all the other essential amino acids. 0 (33m 18s): Yeah. I know, I know leucine is illusionary my thinking, am I? Yeah, yeah. Lucene is, is, has found to be helpful in strength gains and that's obviously you can get that from eggs, right. And even just a simple way. Protein, what about your routine? What is your, what is your routine as far as working out and fasting and, you know, I mean, I know you're a researcher and you do a lot of this, I'm sure. Maybe plays a role in how you, how, how it affects what you do with your routine. 1 (33m 49s): Yeah, no, it's yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to chat about that. It does, it does affect it. When I very first got into intermittent fasting research as a PhD student at that point, I was very much a like couldn't miss breakfast maintained a high meal frequency throughout the day. But as I got interested in this area, I'm like, okay, yeah, I need, I need the, I need to see what this feels like me to do this. So yeah, I really liked time-restricted eating programs. I've, I've adhered to those for the most part over the last, I guess probably eight years or so with some variability. If I, if I was in a phase where I was trying to gain muscle gain, weight, gain strength, I might be more liberal with the feeding window or even have it, you know, potentially unrestricted for periods of time. 1 (34m 30s): And then I might get more aggressive with implementing a little bit, not long, fast but longer facet of up to 24 hours in, in periods. Whereas I'm trying to maintain a calorie deficit and finding those longer fasting periods were beneficial for that. So I'd say current day to day, I probably eat in a seven to nine hour period of time starting in the early afternoon two meals, usually more so I usually target at least four doses of protein that are high enough to, to maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis. So this would be up in for my body mass in the, you know, 30 grams or so range 0 (35m 3s): Per meal. 1 (35m 4s): Yeah. A minimum. Usually it ends up being more than that, but yeah, minimum per meal, cause that's kind of the dose corresponding to maximum stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. 0 (35m 14s): And the reason you're doing four times is, and I believe there's some research done by, do you know Dr. Stuart Phillips? 1 (35m 20s): Yes I do. 0 (35m 21s): Okay. Yeah. Cause I, I I've, I follow some of his research and I think there's some research regarding, is it four, four times is like, I guess would be like the max as far as multiple muscle protein synthesis throughout the day. 1 (35m 34s): Yeah. So it is interesting. I think there are a few in DBTs out, so, but there are, there are, there seems to be a limit where like, even if you were constantly infusing someone with amino acids that should stimulate muscle protein synthesis, at some point it'll become, it'll drop even, even if you have all the amino acids there. So yeah, there, there definitely is research support for the idea that like a stimulation and like coming down off that stimulation stimulation, again, talking about muscle protein synthesis and you have four seems to be in the evidence-based range. Even the last study we did here in resistance strain and females with those, you know, really good results with it, seven to eight hour time restricted eating program, they were getting about a three and a half or four meals on average a day. And part of that was because we were supplementing them with whey protein right after their training. 1 (36m 18s): So yeah, I'll typically weekdays just schedule what works for me is I don't, I don't like bringing, preparing food. So usually the first feeding or two, like here in the afternoon will be something like one of the high protein, like Fairlife ultra-filtered milk. So essentially be protein only like through the first couple of meals and they'll go home and enjoy like a lot of fruits and vegetables, you know, carbohydrates, fast protein, everything, a normal meal, a large normal meal. And then another usually protein centric, but also include, you know, other particularly fruits and vegetables in kind of like a final meal in the mid evening. So like I probably pushed my final eating time, a hair later than I used to just cause that's on a weekday with the schedule of the job and family life and all that. 1 (36m 59s): It's, it's what tends to work. Now. I typically open up the feeding window again for, for like scheduling family related reasons. I usually open that up a little more on weekends cause I'm, I'm making protein pancakes for the kids and I want to enjoy those also. So I'll usually have that window open more and I try not to, you know, go overboard or binge eat or change my food choices too much by just open up the feeding window because on those days at home it's more agreeable. So again, it's very on the behavioral focus in terms of training. I'm fortunate enough to, I live out in west Texas that a lot of rooms, I recently built a big metal building in my backyard. I have a home gym there. I primarily perform resistance training. I'll do most of my low intensity cardio will be like walks running in the yard with the kids playing. 1 (37m 43s): I'll do some jump rope and biking. But for the most part, I do resistance training, kind of a mix of powerlifting and bodybuilding style just because it's just what I love. It's what got me into to exercise in the first place. So I'll usually do that four days a week or so. And then I'll continue. I'll give you the whole program on supplements. You mentioned creatine. I definitely take creatine monohydrate daily. I think it's great. People have different views on multivitamins, but I take, take a multivitamin take fish oil, often supplemental vitamin D and zinc, particularly through the winter I have been. And then I'd take typically a pre-workout supplement. I'll have my caffeine in the morning and then I'll take a non-caffeinated pre-workout supplement because I train in the evening and I like we were talking about don't want sleep disturbances or anything. 1 (38m 27s): Oh, so you do your 2 (38m 28s): Training in the evening? 1 (38m 29s): I do. Yes, but kind of late afternoon, usually the kids are doing their training running around, picking up dumbbells, 3m around and I'm doing my training as well. 0 (38m 38s): Yeah. I follow you on Instagram. I saw your, how do you have a son? That's how old? He's 1 (38m 42s): Four. 0 (38m 43s): And he did, he just picked up a kettle, but I saw they picked up a kettlebell and just did it like perfect form on a deadlift, right? 1 (38m 49s): Yeah, it was, it was a very proud father moment. Yeah. He was at 41 pounds ripped to this 53 pound kettlebell off the ground and the cheering for him. He did it once. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, dude, let me grab my phone out and like, okay, take a little rest period. And then I want to see if you can hear it again. So 0 (39m 2s): You do it again. 1 (39m 3s): He did. 0 (39m 4s): Okay. Yeah. So he did. Yeah. He had like, yeah, I saw that and that's cool. I saw your gym. So, so typically your day you'll break your fast, like let's say what two o'clock ish give or take 1 (39m 18s): Yeah. In the noon to two range, depending on the 0 (39m 20s): Day. And you'll have something more on the protein fat side, it to break the fast and then you'll work out and then you'll sort of backload your carbs. Does that sound about right? Yes. 1 (39m 32s): Yeah. Yeah. Essentially do. And it's pseudo intentional. It's not for like a great performance reason. And I'll give the caveat that if I have a day where I'm trying to hit heavy deadlifts, heavy squat, something like that, I'll either have like a pre-exercise snack. That's like more carbohydrate focused or I'll put those on those weekend days where my feeding is already opened up and I'll have had more kind of pre-workout nutrition just cause I feel I can get through most of my workouts find in a pseudo facet or like say only having had protein state, but squats and deadlifts. I can not get the performance I want. So I just kind of tailor it based on that. But if it, if it's more accessory work or upper body work, it, it doesn't feel as challenging even in a kind of protein sparing, modified fasting type state. 0 (40m 16s): Yeah. No, that's interesting. I love hearing other individuals routines. I mean, I try to tweak mine and make it, I I've been in this rhythm of being in a facet state when I work out and just breaking it when I'm done. And I've tried the other way. I, and I, I'm curious to see if it, you know, my workouts though. I, I changed. I used to be like sort of old school in a sense hour, hour and a half in there now it's like 30 minutes and I'm like done. So it's almost like a little bit of a micro workout, but it's just the more it guys, not, not just guys and more women or men I interview that are study this stuff is just like these micro workouts I think run true as far as effectiveness. 0 (40m 59s): Yeah. I don't think you necessarily need to spend hours in the gym to get, you know, to get the gains. 1 (41m 5s): Yeah, no, I agree. Completely and similar. I've seen a similar progression, some for practical reasons, but also yeah. Kind of, you know, cost benefit analysis that it's like, yeah. Sitting at 30, 40, 45 minutes, you know, you can get the majority of the benefits depending on the style. If you're a powerlifter and you're needing to take three to five minute rests between every set, it may get pushed out longer. But if you're trying to get in and get your work done, get out, I, I completely agree that duration can work. Are you, you've probably talked to your listeners more so you can don't you don't have to answer this question, but I'm curious to hear about your program. Like you mentioned, it's nice to talk to others and kind of see what, what they do. 0 (41m 39s): Yeah. So, well, my program typically is I I'm in a facet state from, I tried to cut off my eating time around 6 30, 6 37. So my I, my wife and I eat and the early side, we're early bird special. It's like we, we did a trip to California and we had these reservations, you know, you're, you're on vacation like, oh, well we'll put it for like 7 37. And every time I think every day at, in the middle of the day, right. Let's just call the restaurant and move up our time. And it's, you know, we just enjoy eating early. So we eat early. I'm usually done eating around 6 37 and then I'm in a facet state. I do all my work and stuff. Try to get all done in the morning. 0 (42m 19s): So I've done around like two, three o'clock and then I'll work out and then took my workouts, which like I mentioned to, you used to be more traditional. Now I had a Dr. John Jake wish on my podcast a couple of times with the X three bar and a, I don't know if you've heard of that. It's it's variable resistance with, and w I'd be curious to see if you ever do a study on that, but very resistance versus traditional lifts. Have you, have you ever done any studies on that? 1 (42m 46s): I haven't. I and I haven't actually even used it. I'm generally aware of it, but yeah, but you enjoy that. 0 (42m 52s): Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm how old are you? 1 (42m 55s): I'm 31 31. 0 (42m 57s): Okay. So I got 10 years. I'm 41. So I just found the band training. It comes with, it's like an Olympic bar. There's a ground plate. And I've just done more with bands because the Viro variable resistance, it's just easier on my joints. And I've been able to do, there's a, there's an exercise. And if you check out my Instagram, you'll see it, but I I'll do like a front squat with it. And it's a lot safer than holding, you know, having an actual traditional, you know, bar with the weights. It's it's it's and front squats are just, I don't know if you do them, but they're just the toughest things to do. And so I do, I do a lot of, I do upper body lower body splits, just getting back to my routine and then I'll break my fast after that. 0 (43m 47s): Usually I don't like to, I usually do like eggs, eggs, and some maybe avocado and eggs or locks and eggs or something like that to break my fast and then I'll have one more meal. So I usually do two meals per day. And if I'm going to have carbs, I typically have it in that second meal. 1 (44m 6s): Okay. So is it total then of about like a four hour eating period from when you first breaking your fast til you're done at six 30? 0 (44m 12s): I would say on average at four to five, four to five hours, which you know, and like you mentioned, you, you have almost like three to four separate meals sometimes. I think, am I getting enough protein? I almost feel like I'm probably in some type of calorie deficit, but I do try to keep my protein up and I eat till I sit until I'm satisfied. So it's like, I don't, I don't feel like I need to keep eating just to eat. You know what I'm saying? 1 (44m 37s): No, I think that's a great perspective. And then today it's like, you're doing something that you can continue to do that enjoy doing, getting the results you want. It's like, you can't, you can't argue too much with that. 0 (44m 46s): You know, talk, speaking of DEXA scans, and one of the things you mentioned that you like about them is the segmental measurements that it takes. Cause it literally to take like your, your left leg right. Leg, right? Like, is that what you were saying that you really liked about it? How it really gets exact? Yeah. And one of the things I noticed is I is I'm wondering with myself is I'll do it every six months or so is I have been able to put on some muscle. My weight is probably been about the same. I'm probably about one between 1 70, 1 75. But what I noticed, especially with doing those front squats, my legs have gotten just bigger. Like I can tell. I mean, I, I, the DEXA scans that tells it to, but so that's always a good feeling. 0 (45m 28s): Cause I know you're, I've seen you do dead lifts and those are some tough deadlifts that you do. 1 (45m 33s): Oh, thanks. I agree though. Front squats are kind of the worst, I mean, great exercise, but yeah. Psychologically. Yeah. Very challenging. 0 (45m 40s): Yeah. So I'd be curious to see, I know you got your home gym, but maybe try some variable resistance with, with bands. It doesn't even have to be the X three, but you might, you might like it. Maybe not all the exercises that you do, but just to mix it up with, with presses. Cause I used to have like elbow issues when I used to do just traditional bench press. I feel like that's for like the younger people. I maybe when I was in my twenties, I'm able to do bench, but now I'll do it with the, with the band. And there's an Olympic bar too, which is nice. It's, it's a little bit of a narrow grip, but I just don't have those elbow issues anymore, which is nice. 1 (46m 16s): Yeah, no, I'll definitely look into, I'm always looking to expand what we have available in the shop gym. 0 (46m 22s): Yeah. And I saw, I saw the Jimi belt that's it was, it was pretty cool. Thank 1 (46m 26s): You. 0 (46m 27s): And so, and then what about just turn the page a little bit, let's talk a little bit about your recent paper that I have. If you're watching on YouTube, here we go. And so this was, I read this whole thing. I don't know how many pages it was, but probably 10 pages, which is a lot for me to read, but I found it interesting. And we're not gonna obviously touch on every single thing. We've already talked about a bit of it, but what would you say, like a conclusion that you came from it that maybe you didn't have before you did this study? 1 (47m 2s): Yeah. So I'd say the biggest thing. Yeah. Just for any listeners. This was a review article we published in nutrition reviews recently looking at kind of acute changes in different physiological markers over the course of a fast. So we're trying to tease out like what's happening after an overnight fast what's happening at 16 hours of fasting, 20 hours of fasting 24 and so on because there've been a number of trials and a lot of interest, of course in intermittent kind of the long-term results of these programs. And that's great, but we wanted to kind of back up and say like, okay, we know different things happen across different durations of fasting. And maybe that should inform our choice of how we put together an intermittent fasting program. 1 (47m 44s): So, you know, with the caveats that, of course we always come back to kind of the behavioral aspects and adherence and all this, but say you're someone like yourself, Brian, who, who can do well with fasting. It's like you, can you fast 20 hours daily, you could extend that. I'm sure if you wanted to, is there evidence, we have to kind of inform what duration of fasting might give you the most bang for your bucks, so to speak. So I guess one takeaway that's interesting, again, this isn't I'm rail against, you know, like common implementations of time-restricted eating like the eight hour eating window and 16 hours of fasting. But it, it is very possible that cutting off a fast at like 16 hours, you may be missing out on periods where physiologically there's some greater shifts and things like carbohydrate and lipid metabolism. 1 (48m 29s): And again, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't base all our decisions just on these acute physiological changes. But as someone progresses up to 20, 24 hours of fascinating, there are a number of events going on, such as the depletion of liver glycogen, that's progressive throughout a fast, but by 20 to 24 hours, nearly all the liver glycogen is depleted. That's one of many signals that that will influence carbohydrate and lipid metabolism. There's a very large increase in lipolysis or breaking down fat as well as fat oxidation. As you get up closer to like 1820 into 24 hours, that kind of range from 18 to 24 in some of the studies is where they saw the biggest increase in lipid metabolism over the course of a whole 72 hour fast. 1 (49m 14s): So if they're looking at all the time periods of their 72 hour fast, that was kind of a critical period. And again, we can't infer too much of this. We can't say for sure that it's like, oh, if you're doing 60 hour fast, you're going to get no results. You have to be doing 24 hour fast or anything of that nature. But just to say, there are physiological changes occurring in the body that might help us inform our duration of fasting. So we kind of hope this would help maybe not only practitioners, but even researchers instead of just rinsing and repeating the same fasting programs to kind of consider and say like, okay, is there a specific health outcome we're targeting with this study? Is it some, you know, insulin sensitivity based on these acute changes? Is there a duration of fast we should be using that might be better than just, you know, the standard programs everyone's used? 1 (49m 58s): So that that'd be my best attempt at a, at a big picture summary. 0 (50m 1s): Yeah, no, I love, I love this study because this is something I think about a lot just for my own good. I started doing, you know, all, you have all these wearables, right? I got it. I got a CGM. I don't go. I try not to go crazy with all these wearables. I've, I've worn some sleep ones as well. But one of one that I started to do was measuring ketones and I was like, Hey, you know, I wonder, cause you know, I'm fairly low carb and fasting a decent amount, you know, am I getting in ketosis? And so I had Ben Azadi on, he's like a big keto guy. He's like, I'll check out a keto, mojo. I don't have any affiliation with them, but I was like, all right, I'll check them out. 0 (50m 41s): And so I started doing it. I noticed like my ketone levels. Weren't crazy. And actually the only time that they were somewhat impactful was actually after I was probably in about a 20 hour fast. And it's interesting that you say that, that my body then started to utilize fat for energy. Is this something that you've ever measured on you or, 1 (51m 0s): You know, infrequently, infrequently? Occasionally I have though. I similar to what you're mentioning and even from the daily schedule, I, I, you know, just described I'm a little on the shorter end that there is some data and we discussed this in the paper where ketone bodies may start to increase after, you know, shortly after an overnight fast, but not to a very large extent up until you're at, like your mentioned that 20 into 24 hours and beyond then you're seeing kind of a larger increase say around that 20 hour mark. So I have sparingly, but based on the durations of fast I'm most typically used, I haven't seen a ton of merit in it again, like, like you're saying it might just be cutting off a little short of that period where that would be more detectable. 0 (51m 40s): Yeah. And on the other hand, it's a self-experimentation thing, right? Like you said, it's tough to make this blanket statement because like my wife, for example, who eats about the same way I do her ketones were like rocking and rolling earlier on. So I was like jealous, oh my God, dude. We were like comparing ketone levels. Yeah. 1 (51m 60s): Thing people do, right? 0 (52m 1s): Yeah. No, I would assume most households do that. So I was, yeah. I was like jealous. I'm like, all right, whatever. But either way, it's just interesting. I think that's why these wearables and, and these different tests are cool, I think to some degree, but on the other hand, you have to almost just go up how you're feeling and like what works best for you. So I'm not like getting all caught up in that one other question would be like, what did, what did you learn from maybe extended fasts? Cause this is something I think about occasionally I'll do it where I'll just, you know, go, let's just say a couple of days, you know, go overnight fasted. And I'll just do, I won't do that too often, but every, maybe few months I'll do that where I'll do maybe a two two-day three-day fast. 0 (52m 42s): Was there any research behind that? And, and as far as, you know, even a toffee G O cleansing. 1 (52m 50s): Yeah. That's a great question. So we have not conducted trials in our own lab looking at fast, longer than 24 hours. So we've done some studies with 24 hour fasting from the literature view we're describing there. The is longer like 48, 72 hours are relatively well characterized in older research. So looking at big picture things like glucose and insulin, concentration, Olympic kinetics, kind of what we were describing with, with lipolysis and fat oxidation, the interest in autophagy seems to be more recent. And I haven't seen a lot in that extended period though. I think it's reasonable to assume the longer, the fast, the higher, the likelihood based on kind of the molecular underpinnings, so to speak, you know, what's actually stimulating this. 1 (53m 38s): I feel like I might have forgotten part of your, your 0 (53m 40s): No, that's okay. I mean, I had Dr. Jason Fung on here, goonie. There's no way to measure a Tophat you really? So it's sort of, I know that question is, is a tough one to answer, but I was just curious if you did anything past 24 hours and it sounds like from, from this recent paper, it was just up to about 24 hours as far as, you know, lipid metabolism and things like that. 1 (54m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. And then in our own studies up to 24 hours, and then yeah, this, this review, we went up to 96 hours in terms of the studies we considered and yeah, you're right. The measurement of autophagy is challenging. We, there are some markers or components of the pathway you can measure, but, and we kind of discussed this in the paper it's far from well characterized in humans and their challenges kind of, oh yeah, this is, this is what I was thinking of with the pattern you described the longer, fast, every so often, you know, there there's some rodent data supporting that there are some human programs that are sort of similar to that. The one that comes to mind is like the fasting mimicking diet, where it might be a five day period or so. And it's not truly fascinating, but you're trying to mimic the fasting state. 1 (54m 44s): It's low calorie, you know, like certain selections of macronutrients and so on. But I think that did arise out of some research showing even just very, you know, occasionally like every few months, a longer fast of several days could have profound effects. Now caveat is that a, you know, two day fast and a rodent is not the same as a two day fast of a human because of differences in metabolism and so on. So yeah, definitely some challenges in translation, an interesting area for research though, again, I would say, I think about the generalized believe. There are some people, again like yourself and I guess myself, to some extent who, who can have and can push into longer, fast as desired, and don't have too much problem with that. 1 (55m 25s): And there are others who, you know, in our 24 hour fasting studies, there's actually interesting. A number of the participants were like, and rightfully so very, very proud of themselves. They're like when I enroll in this study, I didn't actually think I could do this. I didn't think it was possible to not eat for 24 hours, but they did it. And they felt this great sense of accomplishment, which is kind of a side note. So, you know, people can, can do more than, than sometimes they realize they can't in that, that realm. But there's some people who probably wouldn't like a two day fast, that's just never something I'm going to attempt. 0 (55m 52s): Right. And I always say, I've obviously lost my voice or he might have to take over the podcast. Now I would say that. And I ran out of water too, which was good. Yeah. I would say that it's like fast things like a muscle. Right. You just got to build it and it's not something you want to overdo because it is a stressor. Now on that note, are there any other hormetic stressors that you do for yourself or that you would, that, you know, you sort of implemented into your routine? 1 (56m 21s): Not systematically or intentionally. Yeah. Not, not, not really beyond. Yeah. Like exercise and fasting and you know, just surviving on limited sleep due to a family life. Things that no, no, no other intentional ones. 0 (56m 36s): All right. Well, we'll have to do a part two, cause I know we can keep going on and on. And maybe in that part too, I know you have your, that your big workout facility facility that you built for yourself, you got to put a plunger in there, do some cold punching. I highly recommended. I think it'll just up your recovery up your end up inflammation, energy. I think it's something maybe especially cause you got that perfect spot and I don't know where you built that in your backyard or whatever, but I would add a plunger as be my advice. 1 (57m 7s): Yeah, definitely. There's some empty space. He built it bigger than the amount of stuff we had. So we will yeah. I'll continue to be looking for ways to enhance it. 0 (57m 16s): All right. Well, where's the best place to find you. I know you got a bunch of articles on pub med, but where's the best place for people to see your research? 1 (57m 25s): Yeah, probably easiest way to connect is Instagram when we post new or when we publish new articles, I usually post about it there. So my handle, there is just grant underscore, Tinsley, underscore PhD. If you want more direct links out to all my research, I have a personal website, which is just grant tinsley.com. So I have links to, to pub med and other sites that, that how's our research articles. I've pictures of our lab description of our lab team, a detailed article about our garage gym, all that type of information. So those would probably be the two best places to connect. 0 (57m 58s): Yeah, that's great. And we'll have to, we'll have to do a part two down the road. Maybe when you have some, another cool research study that's come out and you feel like it'd be great and advantageous for people to hear that because you know, like we said, in the beginning, I love connecting with you because you sort of tie together a lot of the things that maybe I talk about with clients or that you hear that they hear on the podcast, but you're really doing the research behind it. So I appreciate that. So, 1 (58m 23s): Oh no, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the kind words that'd be. I'd be happy to come on again. 0 (58m 27s): Well, thanks so much. 1 (58m 29s): Yeah. 0 (58m 31s): Thanks for listening to the get lean eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.
