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0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat, clean podcast, 1 (4s): Like in my extreme things, which I test out, like, I'll do what I call a fission sort of day or a couple of days. I've kind of played around with it. And this is where I might fast. I might do more interval training, you know, even to the point where it's more hit, like rather than repeat training, I'll try to activate and PK as much as possible to create more mitochondria, to, you know, really get rid of the bad cells, you know, the autophagy of bad cells and do all these types of things. And then I'll have my, what I call fusion days where I'm trying to take my mitochondria. I have fused them together and make bigger mitochondria build muscle. 1 (48s): You know, so I'm eating, you know, a lot those days I might have more carbohydrates on those days, lots of protein on those days. And so I play with that. 0 (58s): Hello and welcome to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Dr. Craig marker. He's a leading kettlebell expert in a psychology professor at Emory university in Atlanta as a researcher. He understands the latest cutting edge research on fat loss, muscle gain sports performance, and nutrition. So we discussed the importance of high-intensity repeat training, the effectiveness of a one-minute workout along with advantages of eating seasonally, how to use kettlebell swings for a great workout, the correct work, rest intervals for fat loss and how he has been able to look and stay young. 0 (1m 54s): This was a great interview with Dr. Craig marker. I know you'll enjoy it. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. And my guest today is Craig marker. Welcome to the show. 1 (2m 10s): Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me. 0 (2m 13s): Yeah, thanks for coming on. I was saying before we got on air that I loved your interview with Brad Kearns and the be rad podcast. I said, you know, I'd love to get you on because we talk a lot about nutrition in this pot, in my podcast. And I, we, we talk a little bit about movement and I think it's important to get a little bit of both. So I wanted to bring you out and you have some cool perspectives regarding kettlebells, but also just about general workouts. And maybe, maybe why don't we get into that first and talk about, like, I know you wrote an article and you talked with Brad about your hurt versus hit high intensity training versus hurt training. 0 (2m 55s): Maybe explain that to the listener so they can understand 1 (2m 58s): Yeah. The titles of bit unfortunate, because there's another type of hurt. H I R T type of training. That means something completely different. So I don't know which one is going to eventually go into the lexicon, but high intensity interval training. And I think of the, some of the original work by Tabata, Marty Gibala is doing some really cool work on him. That's very different, but I, I, so we can get into Marty Gibala his work, but the original hit workouts were Tabata came up with were 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. And the important thing was like all out intensity and he would go seven sets. And I know, you know, this stuff probably already, but seven sets, if power was maintained, the eighth set would take place. 1 (3m 44s): And I I've done this. I've tried. I've really loved this. When I first read these articles, I tried it keeping power to that eighth round is really, really tough. So, you know, basically you have no rest 10 seconds, so you're just like pouring everything out. So I worked with Tavo Setsu Lynn who is kind of known for bringing kettlebells to the west. He's a former, he lived in the Soviet union and did a lot of different training there and came to the U S and brought kettlebell training here. And so we were working on these different protocols and adjusting work to rest intervals. And like with kettlebells, his training philosophy has always been, you know, he's done a lot of training for special operators, first responders that you always have to be ready to go, that we're never, you know, going to do a burning out workout where, and work on using that term purposely where you're not going to be able to go to the next day. 1 (4m 44s): So he talks about them as training sessions. You're always practicing the skill. You always have enough in the tank to do it again the next day. And so our work to rest issue intervals, we're playing around with it quite a bit. And we like this repeat type training that you could keep the power up session or set after set. So, you know, if, if I can measure my power with a kettlebell by wearing an accelerometer, or if I had a jump plate could measure that and how much power I put into each swing should be the same relatively the same plus or minus 20% over the course of all my rounds. 1 (5m 26s): And so I can measure that and kind of see that. So that was kind of our hurt training. Then this is based in a lot of different models, you know, really Virchow, Schonski, who's known for plyometrics came up with this sort of type of training and kind of called it anti-gay Politik training or something similar in, in Russian, but basically not getting to that burning feeling that you have in your muscles, you might get to it, but then you're going to rest enough where you can get rid of the acid, be able to go another set, and a lot of track and field coaches use this. They do a sprint can rest up to 15 minutes and then do another sprint. 1 (6m 7s): So you're maintaining power on every set. So this long story, I'm sorry, I'll get the answer 0 (6m 13s): Eventually. 1 (6m 15s): Yeah. High-intensity repeat training is being able to repeat the, what you do every set. So, and, you know, it's kind of like one interval type training is, you know, 15 seconds on 45 seconds off that's, you know, even tough to repeat for a while, but some of them we've even done longer lot longer rest periods and, and Marty Gibala plays a lot with the different rest periods too. And so his, a lot of his research has got these very different rest periods. 0 (6m 46s): Yeah. And I assume the rest period is sort of a context dependent on the person, their background and things like that. W after I listened to your interview with Brad, I I've been wanting to get, you know, Brad talks about sprinting as, as a great way to sort of get these intervals and well, you know, I'm in Chicago, it gets to, it gets pretty cold during the winter. So I actually got a, a rogue echo bike, you know, obviously you're familiar with CrossFit and stuff. So that bike is heavy duty and, and, and, you know, it's interesting. I've been messing around with my, my intervals. And first of all, they have some, you can do custom intervals and then they have preset ones, you know, where it's like, you mentioned 22nd on 10, second. 0 (7m 32s): I don't know how people last you talk about seven sets are in and then do the eighth. I couldn't do seven. And do the, I know it was, you know, especially like you said, especially if you're going, if you're really committing to it and you're going all out, I right now I I've been doing 15 seconds on and I've my mood, my rest period, all the way to about a minute 50, because I, I, like you said, you want to do your next one with that same amount of at least right around that same amount of power output, is that correct? Yeah. 1 (8m 3s): Yes. Yep. Yeah, no. And that that's quite normal to have those longer minutes plus two minutes plus, and like I mentioned, the, you know, sort of the extreme is, you know, track and fields like they'll do, they'll start with a 15 minute rest interval. So they have the same power. They'll go even longer than that. So, I mean, yeah, that's, it's something that's really hard when I train people is like, no, I don't want to sit around in a minute, two minutes, you know? And I think that's the most difficult part is as people getting their head around it, they want to just keep pushing. And so at the end of a workout, they're laying on the floor, you know, and again, if it's a training session, you're going to maintain that power each time. If I can quickly say, like, I think that modality is really important, like that echo bike, oh gosh, I don't have one and I probably should get one, but I just hate it so much. 1 (8m 52s): Like the rower was my nemesis for a while and I just forced myself to do the rower. I, you know, I think the rowers really good that, that sort of echo bike, you know, Brad talks about sprints, but the thing about was with sprints, if you're doing it uphill, it works. But once you build momentum, like five seconds into a sprint, you're not, you're kind of trying to keep momentum. So it's a little bit different. I would love, I think a better would be uphills or a sled push, you know, unless you're just trying to do five seconds sprints, you know, some, you know, and I think it's very body dependent. Like my legs would burn like crazy on a bike like that. And, you know, that changes everything. 1 (9m 33s): So people have different, you know, you'll have a different output of, you know, your weak spot will be different on different modalities. 0 (9m 41s): Yeah. And the nice thing about the bike is you can see your outage, you know, the wattage and also how fast you're going. So I try to keep an eye and like, I try to push to about 35 miles per hour. I can get it on that bike. Yeah. I dunno. I have nothing to compare this to. I, you know, I've never really done it with anyone else, but this is, you know, again, I've been doing it for a couple months, but right now I'm only doing four sets, four sets of 15 seconds. And, and then we'll see like, like you mentioned, I think the more you get attuned to it, I could probably, maybe I'm curious about your opinion is, you know, there's probably a point of no return where you could only do you only want to do so many, you know, seven or eight I'm assuming maybe is probably the max. 1 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And what you're getting at, like Marty Gibala has a book. He actually, you know, he's done a lot of research, but he wrote a book kind of a popular press book and he calls it the one-minute workout. And it's actually just one, I mean, there's two, three minutes of rest in between. So it actually takes much longer than one minute. But if you put in one minute of as much effort as possible over, you know, X number of rounds, you know, that's kind of what his aim is in that book. So you're hitting one minute. Exactly. 0 (10m 56s): Right. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, no, I, I tell people I'm like, I'm like, just try it. I'm like, it's so great. Cause I've never been a big cardio. I'm not a huge cardio fan. Like I know there's other people out, a lot of people that go on a treadmill for 45 minutes or elliptical, what's your opinion? Is that just, I mean, I know steady state cardio has its place, but is it somewhat of a waste of time? 1 (11m 19s): No, I don't. I think, I think they're all important systems. Like the aerobic system certainly important. And you know, I think as we age and I'm kind of thinking a lot about longevity type of things, you know, we're losing our fast Twitch muscles. So this is why I like doing these in a sprint type activities. I want to keep as many fast Twitch fibers and, you know, I weight trained for the same reasons as when I get older, I want as many as possible, but aerobic work, the aerobic systems, what's cleaning up the mess in between rounds. And so we need a good aerobic system. So if I'm starting somebody from scratch, I probably would have them do a good amount of aerobic base before they even start these sort of sprints just because, you know, they need like a base to be able to clean up the system. 1 (12m 7s): So I think it's useful. And I actually, I will kind of cycle through this high intensity repeat training and I'll do a little bit longer, like I'll do jumper up cycles, which is more aerobic. I can't get my heart rate up as high. So I'm doing longer cycles of jump rope and those types of things. So I, I try to mix and match because I will lose some of that aerobic capacity over time, but I, I am trying to do everything as explosive as possible. 0 (12m 33s): Yeah. And I guess it also depends if you're, I mean, I would imagine most of the people listening, we're not like training for something specific. They just want to have general health and, you know, live a long, long, healthy life. So I try, I, you know, is there a certain amount of times, you know, you'd say to do this, like I know Brad mentioned even just once per week, I've been doing it about twice per week. And again, it probably depends on the individual and their background and things like that. 1 (12m 57s): Yeah, no, I think you just said it there it's, it's independent. It's what are your goals? And, you know, if your, if your goals are to have more aerobic capacity, you know, three to four times per week, you know, if your goal is just to, to maintain and to kind of have some basic aerobic capacity, you know, one or two days a week is great. So, 0 (13m 17s): Yeah. And what about lifting weights? I know you, you, you know, you, obviously, you, you were, you strong first instructor for awhile, right? Kettlebells, what, what did, what, what type of I saw on YouTube, one of your, one of your protocols, what type of things can people do with kettlebells that it can be effective as well? 1 (13m 39s): Yeah. And I, and I can, this kind of goes with my main philosophy of trying to do things either explosive or heavy to build type two muscle fibers. So, I mean, like, I think kettlebells sometimes seems scary to people or, you know, if you're in a kettlebell cult almost, and it's just another tool to me to use, it's simple, like, especially during the pandemic, a lot of people were at home and to have, you know, a bunch of dumbbells or weights, other equipment, it takes up a lot of space. So a kettlebell is pretty convenient. You know, I think there's a book by Paavo, that's called simple and sinister, which is a really great protocol. It's got kettlebell swings. 1 (14m 20s): And I, I think kettlebell swing, if, if I'm gonna recommend one exercise for everybody, it's probably a kettlebell swing because it's working a hinge like movement and it's explosive. So it's just like jumping. And I think that explosive jumping is going to be helpful to most everybody. And then the other movement is a, a get up Turkish get up. So you're getting off the ground with a kettlebell in hand, your body has to rotate, move in different directions with the kettlebell overhead. So you're kind of working a lot of core strength, all kinds of different muscles in your shoulders. Yeah. Yeah. And that really is preventative of like shoulder injuries and different things for me. 1 (15m 1s): So that imbalance of holding a kettlebell over the head and the kettlebell shaking all over the place builds a lot of strength in my shoulder. So I think those are really good basics. You can do a lot of, like, I find presses work really well with kettlebells because of the natural positioning of the kettlebell on the outside of the arm. I like doing that better than with a dumbbell or barbells. So I do a lot of kettlebell presses. And then, you know, other like gymnastic type of exercises, I like like maintaining my pull-ups, you know, I have sort of like goals in my head of being able to do a weighted, pull up with X amount of weight or doing a certain number of reps of pull-ups. 1 (15m 43s): I like to maintain those numbers. And then if I'm, you know, in a gym like doing squats and deadlifts, those are really hitting a lot of bang for the buck, with those movements to 0 (15m 54s): What are your, what's your thought around? Cause I've, I've been lifting for a while and I used to just do a lot of traditional lifts and then the quarantine hit and I got into a, the X three bar. I had Dr. John Jake Rashaan regarding like variable resistance and stuff. Have you, have you done any of that? And do you have any thoughts around that? 1 (16m 14s): I need to try that X three bar Brad was talking to me about it and I was going to get one and I haven't tried it yet, but I do think like, you know, that variable resistance, like I think it's one I need, I'm probably, you're probably much better at talking about it. So I'll let you kind of follow up on this, but I think it's useful for some movements and, you know, some, you know, where that strength curve is important, you know, like, like a press, you know, you want the end of it till, you know, kind of, you want to kind of explode through it. You know, I, there are lots of like overload compensatory type of training systems where, you know, you're doing a squat and the top is a lot easier. So having that variable load resistance is, is important to, to strain more at the top than at the bottom where it's the hardest. 1 (17m 1s): So, I mean, it fits in perfectly with some of those movements. So I, I, I definitely could see its utility. I I've done a lot of weighted squad or squats with bands on them and in different things or with chains on them. But it's, it's different than that, that tool that you're talking about. 0 (17m 17s): Yeah, no, you explained it perfectly. And I I've just gotten to know it over the last couple of years because I was just working out in the basement and looking for something to just be a little bit more, I will say that like, just like my joints are so much better. I used to have some elbow issues and especially with doing presses and things like that. And the variable resistance, obviously, as it gets, it gets more difficult, but you're also getting stronger because you're, you're more extended in a more, an extended position. So definitely a big fan of that. I know you talk about, you have a bunch of on, was that breaking muscle? Is that the knee? Is that the yes. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So definitely check out breaking muscle. If you want to read more Craig's work and you talk a little bit about secret to building functional muscle. 0 (18m 2s): I'm just curious if you want to touch a little bit on that. That'd be great. 1 (18m 6s): Gosh, you might have to give me a little bit of a clue what I wrote in that 0 (18m 10s): I know. And I also, you talked with Dr. Fred Hatfield long time ago, right. And he was known as what Dr. Squat. So I'm curious, obviously I'm a big fan. Actually. I do now front squats with that extra, which has been really cool because I never used to do front squats. They're just difficult to get the right form. And now, you know, when you're dealing with the bands, it's a lot safer. So I really liked doing that. It's a huge, just core activation doing front squats. So yeah. I'm curious the work with Dr. Fred Hatfield and new, you interviewed him a while back. So if you want a reminder on that, I can give it to you, but I'm curious. Yeah, 1 (18m 50s): No, I mean, the things that he taught me over the years is just like, I that's invaluable information. I'm not going to forget that, but real quick about the front squats, like, like you said, the bands can be really helpful. Dan, John talks about, he created what he called the goblet squat. I, I'm not sure, you know, I'm sure people have done that before, but the goblet squat is with a kettlebell in front of you and it kind of inverses a barbell, which people find really uncomfortable on the shoulders. The kettlebell in front of you is almost puts you in a really good position to be upright. And so like for people who are just learning to front squat, I love that sort of, you know, goblet squats and gets it just kind of naturally gets people into position. 1 (19m 35s): You ask them to squat without a weight and you know, it can look not so healthy and not so great, but then all of a sudden they put a kettlebell right there and it just changes their center of gravity. They just feel much more comfortable. 0 (19m 47s): Yeah, I agree. 1 (19m 49s): Yeah. But yeah, Fred, Fred Hatfield had, he was quite an innovator. You know, the, what we were just talking about, the, you know, he looked at the strength curves and really like, how do I make myself stronger and more explosive? And, you know, he was a big one in the top of the deadlift. How do I, you know, the lockout, how do I make my lockouts better? And, you know, just putting straps around a deadlift bar, you know, so the, at the top it's more difficult. And so then the lockouts would, you know, he could work on the lockouts that way, or chains or straps or bands on the squat rack, squat bar, as he's squatting, which would compensate for the easier part of the strength curve, what we were just talking about. 1 (20m 36s): So those types of things I, I found, you know, to be invaluable the way he sort of reverse engineered things and was always looking at how to fix his weaknesses. He also talked about this one I've I've tried. And I just don't, I'm not coordinated as he was, I guess, but he talked about with the deadlift sort of this activation, you know, when we jumped and this, this comes from Virchow Shamsky and his depth jumps, but when you land in your jump, your bodies, th the neurons have a signal that kind of tell the, the, the muscle is being stretched too much. 1 (21m 16s): We have to go the opposite direction. So it compensates for that stretch reflex. And, you know, it goes in the opposite direction. So supposedly, and I I'd love to see a video of this. I just have never found one, Fred Hatfield would jump up in the air land, grab the dumbbell or the, the barbell and do his deadlift. And I I've seen like Andy Bolton, who was the first person to dead lift a thousand pounds, do something similar where he's pumping his muscles sort of fast. And then on the third one, he lifts and it's like, he's activating that stretch reflex. And so those types of things, those little sort of reverse engineering of, of, you know, going against what the body wants to do were, were quite incredible to me. 0 (22m 4s): Well, just to let people know if they don't know who Dr. Fred Hatfield was, he, he set the world record squat of over a thousand thousand 14 pounds in 1987 when he was at the age of 45. That's pretty 1 (22m 21s): Impressive. It really is impressive. Yes. Yep. 0 (22m 24s): Wow. Did you ever, so you met him. 1 (22m 27s): Yes. Yep. 0 (22m 28s): Yep. I know he passed away in 2017. I think I was reading. 1 (22m 33s): Yeah. Yeah. He, yeah, he was, he was pretty active until the end, but yeah, just, I had talked to him pretty recently before his, his passing, but yeah, he's, he was so knowledgeable, always wanting to give back to the community and just, you know, really gave the fitness industry some really great information, you know, scientifically based, but also just a lot of reverse engineering of what worked. 0 (22m 59s): Yeah. It's amazing. Well, yeah, it's, I, I would tell anyone that's been doing back squats, especially as you get older, maybe look into doing some front squats, and if you don't have the resistant bands, like I used with the x-ray, you can use, like, you mentioned like a kettlebell or, or even just a dumbbell and, you know, just hold it under your chin. Cause it'll it definitely, it, it, not only are you putting less load on the back and the spine you're, you're also got to keep your core tight the whole time. And you're just, posturally a lot better than a regular squat. So Tommy Craig, so you look, obviously you look great. How old are you, Craig? I'm just curious. 1 (23m 39s): I'm almost 0 (23m 40s): 50. Almost 50. Okay. Yep. Yeah, no, cause I can tell you're in great shape. What type of things would you like? What tips would you recommend individuals as they're getting, you know, you know, obviously I'm, I turned just turned 41, you know, most of the people, I would imagine that, that listen to this podcast or, you know, 40, 50 and beyond looking to sort of stay in shape. Like what, what does your routine look like and how can people apply that to theirs? 1 (24m 7s): Yeah. So I'm my day job is a professor and I teach research and statistics. And so I've always read the research literature. So I, I mean, I, I think I'm always reading, what's new. What do we know? And, you know, on, on exercise and nutrition and those types of things. So, you know, I play also do a lot of experimentation on myself and try to figure out what works well for me. And like you said, there, yeah, there's a lot of individual differences. So, you know, gluten-free versus, you know, gluten full or, you know, those types of things. I need to test it out. Do I have that sort of sensitivity and how does it affect me? 1 (24m 49s): So I've done a lot of different experimentation over the year years. I do think diets very important. You know, if, if we're trying to get as much out of ourselves as possible, you know, I think, you know, kind of the, the hierarchy is diet and exercise first, you know, let's get moving, then I've got very specific ways of that. I find that moving works best for me. And then diet, you know, really focusing on, you know, my basic principle is just natural, not processed foods as much as possible. I play around with keto. I like though in the summertime, I kind of feel like, you know, we have vegetables and fruits that grow in the summer. 1 (25m 34s): I feel like it's more natural for my body to get that. So I do less keto wish diets in the summer, but I'm not trying to take in any processed sugars, processed fats, especially, you know, the sort of vegetable oils. I got try to avoid all that. That's in a lot of processed food. So, and, and the stuff that you're talking about quite a bit, you know, in, in your, your website and your podcast, you know, I kind of follow that sort of those natural principles, you know, and then I look at supplements and you know, what can I do to enhance this even further? And I play a lot with like, like I said, longevity, and looking at what activates my mitochondria best, what keeps my blood sugar, you know, optimize my insulin resistance low and keep my inflammation down. 1 (26m 28s): So I try to look at everything that I'm doing and it gets, it gets a little crazy at times. I don't share these secrets with many people, but 0 (26m 38s): So say if you, if you start researching supplements, that could be, that could be a long, long journey. What type of, if you talk about anti-aging where there certain things I know there are some ones that have come on the market recently, and that there's certain ones that sort of stood out to you. 1 (26m 55s): So the way that I have been playing with this lately is that I think of kind of two phases, and this is overly simplifying it, but we have M tour, which is sort of building muscle and, you know, building, you know, building our body. And then we have amp K, which is, you know, comes in when we're fasting and, and exercising and our body notices an energy deficit. So I try, we have this sort of cycle naturally, like if I exercise and eat, I'll, you know, build <em></em> will be activated as a meeting and, and PK when I'm exercising, but I'm trying to swing that pendulum a little bit more extreme. So like in my extreme things, which I test out, like, I'll do what I call a fusion sort of day or a couple of days, I've kind of played around with it. 1 (27m 45s): And this is where I might fast. I might do more interval training, you know, even to the point where it's more hit, like rather than repeat training, I'll try to activate and PK as much as possible to create more mitochondria, to, you know, really get rid of the bad cells, you know, the autophagy of bad cells and do all these types of things. And then I'll have my, what I call fusion days where I'm trying to take my mitochondria. I have fused them together and make bigger mitochondria build muscle, you know? So I'm eating, you know, a lot those days I might have more carbohydrates on those days, lots of protein on those days. 1 (28m 26s): And like, so I play with that and, you know, I've done things like even on the MPK days where I might fast, but I also have done fat fasting where I'll just eat fat the day and kind of like, I there's been science on like PPA, our alpha, which is utilizing your body fat that stays active. If all you're eating is a low protein and fat. So I'll play with that somewhat. Like, so I play with all kinds of different things and, you know, I, I think shocking the body is good. I don't necessarily think it's something I want to do all the time. It's pretty extreme at times. And, you know, people, I, again, I don't tell many people about this, these weird experiments that I do, but yeah, it's, it's, you know, I kind of play around with this a lot. 0 (29m 13s): That's great. I mean, yeah. You talk about like all like these hormetic stressors, right? Like fasting and working out, these are all stressors. Do you do any cold or hot therapy? 1 (29m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you know, jump in 0 (29m 28s): The lakes like bread. 1 (29m 30s): Yeah. Bread breads has that to an extreme end. Like his freezer that he has that's filled with water is, is great. But, you know, I tried to do it a little bit more naturally. Like now I'm not in Chicago cold, but you know, it's hitting like 40 degrees here. And so like I walked an hour this morning and just a t-shirt and shorts and, you know, kind of creating a little shiver response, nothing extreme. I'm gonna keep that up over the winter. Like I'm building, you know, sort of things now, you know, January be 25 here, 20 0 (30m 2s): Really good again. So you're in Atlanta gets done 1 (30m 6s): In the morning. Yeah. Yeah. I I've lived in Chicago where you're at and it's not, I wouldn't be doing the same thing. I'd have to build up to it, I think. But I think 0 (30m 14s): I took my dogs for a walk with just a shirt and shorts in the middle of winter. I'd probably get some interesting looks, but it, it w it would be probably a bit of a tough walk. 1 (30m 26s): Yeah. Yep. And then the heat exposure, like a minute Atlanta, summertime, I, I try not to turn my air conditioner on in my car at all. I would do it at home and work, but nobody would want to be near me, but you know, the, the car ride home, I've got 25, 30 minutes. That's my sauna. If I stopped at the grocery store that people wonder what, what happened to this person you're 0 (30m 51s): In the sweat, 1 (30m 52s): But yeah, it's, it's it, you know, so it kind of build these things in as much as possible. I'll try to do cold showers and those types of things at times. But I try to find those again, just taking to the pendulum of what's natural in my environment and trying to make it a little bit more extreme. So I don't bundle up and I don't, you know, do excessive things to cool down in the summer. So yeah, 0 (31m 14s): No, those are good, like little tips that you could do just throughout the day. And then you talk about sort of, you have your fasting days. I'm curious. Cause we talk a lot about fasting. Do, do, are you doing fasting on a daily basis or do you just pick maybe a few days during the week where you do maybe some extended fast and then you have days where you need more on a normal schedule? 1 (31m 36s): Might yeah. Come on. Normal schedule is probably have a, at least a 14 hour fast almost every day. And that's something, I don't know if that's even a fast, but you know, there'll be days where I've extended out to like 24 hours. And you know, that, you know, maybe on Fridays is, you know, that's my extended fast where I don't eat until, you know, one meal a day, the next day or something. And those are kind of just, that's just my general week, you know, 14 to 24 hours. If I travel, like I find like that's the best time to fast, you know, cause everything's different. I'm not, you know, don't know where I'm could eat and those types of things. So, and plus I, you know, I don't necessarily want to eat processed food, so it works out well and there, I can fast, you know, a couple of days and you know, kind of, you know, every few months do something like that. 1 (32m 23s): But 0 (32m 24s): Yeah, I always say traveling's a great time to fast. I mean, now you don't really serve you anything anyways on a plane because you know, that's just not the way they do it anymore, but either way, like you said, most of the stuff at airports and stuff is processed foods and then you might as well just fast right through it. Right. Yep. And then as far as your work, your workouts, I mean, obviously you've been lifting for how long, how many, how many years have you been lifting for? 1 (32m 51s): I mean, I probably started in my teens so 30 years or so. 0 (32m 55s): Yeah. Yeah. And w what's your, what's your workout routines now? 1 (33m 2s): I do mostly early mornings. Cause I find that just works better for me. I'll do, you know, long walks during, you know, afternoons or whatever, if, if I, you know, with the dogs or family and those types of things, but I get up in the morning, like I've been doing my sort of fishing days where I'll do a lot of, like, 0 (33m 23s): When you say, what does that? 1 (33m 25s): Yeah, yeah. That's not a good term. It's just a, that's my kind of break everything down day. So like, I'm thinking of like the mitochondria, when I say vision, I'm actually like trying to split them to make more mitochondria and you know, like a and PK. So I'll do a lot of like heavy bags, work, jump rope, work rower. Again, I don't, I try to be explosive in my movements. I don't want to do anything. You know, I find like the heavy bag is great that I can just punch it as hard as I can. And I don't want to lose my power on those or kettlebell swings, you know, kind of the same thing. I just want to be powerful. Don't want to lose that power. 1 (34m 5s): And however, I work my work to rest intervals. I've maintaining my power. So I'll, I'll try to do those. And then, you know, and you know, to Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, I'm doing a little bit more strength training, what I call my fusion days, fusing my mitochondria together. And then after that is, you know, those are probably my shorter fast days where I'll try to eat two hours afterwards or so, and, you know, kind of feed the muscles and maybe take a little leucine or, you know, some things that activate M tour a little bit more. 0 (34m 42s): Got it, got it. What would you say? I mean, you've been in the fitness industry for a while now. You, you know, you you've been a professor for a while as well. And you were at, are you at Emory at university? Is that 1 (34m 53s): Right? Mercer university 0 (34m 54s): Mercer. Okay. But you know, all through your years in the, in, in health and wellness, what are the, some of the things that, like the biggest thing that you've probably learned since what's in 30 years or so? 1 (35m 8s): Yeah. I, I think, you know, some of the basic principles I have been, I think one thing I've learned is that things get reinvented over and over again. And, you know, I, I think of our, you know, the fasting protocol or a half a mile Meyer, you know, kind of talked about the warrior diets. I think it was the 1997. He published that book and, you know, and, and we've been talking about sort of keto diets and, you know, Atkins, you know, so like these simple things may not, you know, I think the refinement is great. Like some of the things that like now, like, you know, I think the Atkins diet, you know, like he might've even advocated for people eating bacon and, you know, all kinds of different things just to get fats. 1 (35m 52s): And now we know a little bit more about, you know, how to optimize a keto diet and, you know, one meal a day type of things, what it's actually triggering. So I think we've learned a lot, but I think, you know, some of the basic principles stay the same, you know, strength, principles, you know, we look at, you know, what, one of the reasons I enjoy my work with , he studied in the Soviet union and studied, you know, all of these sort of Virchow Shamsky and all of these, you know, USSR track and field and weightlifting coaches and their world records. They changed weight classes for the, the weightlifting. 1 (36m 33s): I mean, they would still stand today if those weight classes still stood. So they knew what they were doing. And those types of training methods have kind of stayed over time as well. So, you know, I don't think, I think we're refining, but I don't think there's anything that's like super new that's coming out. 0 (36m 53s): Yeah. And as far as I saw your video on YouTube doing some kettlebell swings and then presses, and you talk about, I'm curious to just know your opinion about like Mio fibrillar, hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. 1 (37m 10s): Yeah. 0 (37m 11s): Maybe, maybe put it in layman terms and just explain to people the differences in how they can bet how could benefit them. 1 (37m 20s): Yeah. I don't really know what's happening in my body when I'm doing this. So this is, you know, when I say those terms, I'm guessing what happens, but my oh, February, their hypertrophy is the muscle fibers getting thicker and more muscle fibers. And that's sort of the leaner muscle. Like a special operator would want something. That's not adding a lot of weight, but making them a lot more explosive, a lot more, having a lot more strength. The sarcoplasmic is something that bodybuilders are looking for just bigger muscles and strength comes with that. But it's the fluid and other pieces that are filling up the muscle. 1 (38m 2s): So I've never like, I'm sure when I first started, I thought I'd like bodybuilder type training. I wanted to be, I didn't want to be a bodybuilder, but I wanted to gain muscle like that. I could never gain a lot of muscle. And, you know, I think there, you're doing a lot higher reps, you know, I, I'm focusing probably when I do weight training, you know, three to seven reps to build the most strength and that's gonna build the most fibers versus sarcoplasmic, which is, you know, eight to even 20 reps. And, you know, that's, you're going to feel a lot more of the pump going to, you know, bring a lot more fluid to the muscles. You know, that type of training is just, it's just different. 1 (38m 42s): So with the kettlebell swings and that, that, that training that you're talking about, everything was explosive, but, you know, it was, you know, the presses were between three to seven reps and heavy presses as explosive as possible, but three to seven reps kind of building that, the fibers 0 (39m 3s): Got it. So most of your weight training is done in that zone. And when you talk about, you know, maybe 10 plus reps, you talk a little bit more and the endurance side, as opposed to what you're looking for, which is more just building muscle, which has, would be like the three to seven rep range. 1 (39m 21s): Yeah. And, and building sort of that strength related to muscle. I think, you know, eight to 20, you're going to build a lot more size. I'd like, if you want to put on mass, you know, probably, you know, they, they've always talked about eight to 12 putting on mass, but I, I know that, I think that range is even a little bit bigger on the high end side that you can really get the pump and burn, you know, 15 reps or so. And you know, that's going to put on a little bit more mass, I think. Got it. Okay. Not necessarily functional strength, but more of the, 0 (39m 53s): The size. Yeah. Is you think there's a point of no return as far as reps, you know? Cause it's interesting with the <em></em> he has, you do one set to failure with like almost half reps at the end when you can't even press anymore. And I've always just curious, I've actually, you know, I was doing one, I've been doing one to two sets of that and I've been putting on muscle. Haven't been sore once. What's your thoughts around like, cause a lot of people think they have to get sore to actually like build muscle, but actually the opposite could have be good because you damage the muscle and you almost sort of just go spinning you're spinning in place. 0 (40m 33s): What are your thoughts around that? 1 (40m 35s): Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I, one of the articles that I wrote that I didn't really mean it to be a, I didn't know the quote would take off, but I wrote like, I don't care about your feelings. I care about results and people feel sometimes like they have to be sore, otherwise they didn't do a workout and yeah, I don't think you have to be sore. And it's probably Contra indicated. Like I think if you're, you know, some of the hits type protocols and even, you know, CrossFit gets a bad name, but it, I think it really depends on the CrossFit coach, but like some of those training where you're always going, you're sore all the time. You come in the next day, it's like a hangover you're trying to do it again. And you know, that can lead to injuries over time. 1 (41m 18s): Your body just isn't recovering. And so I, you know, I, I think there is a point of diminishing returns. I liked that idea of being able to go, you know, I might have a little soreness, but like, I like to be able to go and almost as peak performance relatively. 0 (41m 34s): Yeah. And the one thing I've noticed just doing, doing the resistance training and doing less sets and not being as sore as, like you said, like I can increase the, how many workers I do during the week, as opposed to just doing lower body once or maybe twice because I'm just cashed and I just can't do it again. And then I gotta wait longer. As you know, I've, I've been doing, you know, maybe three, four lower body workouts a week now. And I don't, I feel like my output is just, this is, you know, is strong. 1 (42m 6s): Yeah, no, I think that's great. I mean, I like that more frequent too. And I think maybe as, as I aged, like it's just like I needed to do more frequently and I couldn't just do it all in one day. You know, Dan, John and pelvis have a book called easy strength and they're doing a whole body workout. Gosh, I'm going to probably bastardize this book, but I thought four to five days a week. Maybe that's just what I did with it. But, but it's that sort of, that, that idea, that principle, you're not putting a ton of reps per day, but over the course of the week, you've kind of have that volume. 0 (42m 41s): Yeah. I think Brad interview someone that was doing like, he had like a deadlift bar by where he would work and he would just block every time he walked past it. He did like one of them, you know, again, it's all I think when you can, you know, when you talk about these micro workouts, I think it, it, everyone can do them and there's no excuses. I think sometimes the excuses come in, when you think yourself, well, I got to drive the gym and I got to be there for an hour. So, you know, and then I got a shower. So then that they ended up not even doing anything. And so I think they can go a long way if you just can do a 10, 15 minute workout. And like you said, like that, like those sprints or the, what I'm doing on the bike, I'm really only doing one minute of output of heart output and the rest is just rest time. 0 (43m 27s): But then I'm done after whatever six, seven minutes. Yep. 1 (43m 32s): Yeah. I think like in that, that mindset, you know, 15 seconds, I feel like I can do, oh, I can handle any pain for almost 15 seconds. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's at, if I think I have another 30 minutes, like it's, oh gosh, that's hard to mentally handle, but 15 seconds, I worry about the next 15 seconds after I finished this one, but I can handle 15 seconds right now. 0 (43m 56s): Yeah. I know. It's like, you look at the clock. You're like, oh, okay. Like you're I think, yeah, it's a total different mentality. Cause I don't like love, I don't even like riding a bike, but like I just crank it out. And by the time I, if I close my eyes, by the time I open my eyes, I'm pretty much done with that set, which is good. Cause I need to rest anyways. One other question. 1 (44m 15s): I'm glad to hear though that I'm not the only one closing my eyes when I don't want to see the class. 0 (44m 20s): Right, exactly. Yeah. No, the only time I'll open it. I just want to see how fast I'm going. But other than that, I'll try to close my eyes. And my question too is I know Brad's talked about work ratio as far as like 10 to 30 seconds when you're doing some of that height, you know, that high intensity work is that sound about right? 1 (44m 39s): Yeah. So 0 (44m 41s): 30, 30, 30 might even be even long. Right. That might even be too long. 1 (44m 46s): It is. Yeah. And it's kind of gets at energy systems and everybody has, you know, again, individual differences in how these things kind of play a role, but like I want to drain the lactic system, which is our quick system and you know, that starts to drain pretty quickly, like seven, eight seconds into it. And then the glycolytic system is ramping up that whole time and around, you know, 15 seconds or so that starting to go. So it depends with, you know, so like I'm still trying to find the exact right timing, but yeah, I think, I think between 10 to 20 seconds is my pretty sweet zone. I could expand it out a little bit more 30 seconds, you know, it depends maybe on some pieces of equipment, it just takes me a little longer to ramp up. 1 (45m 32s): But yeah, I think 10 to 25 seconds is that sweet spot. Yeah. And, and you know, just not getting into the deep, too deep into science, but a lot of those triggers that trigger mitochondria biogenesis. And you know, what we're trying to do is drain that energy system, that ATP as fast as possible, because that sends out a signal to our body. Like, you know, we're running out of energy, you know, we got to go fix this system up so we can handle these types of things. And so you, yeah, like you said, it's that hormetic shock that, you know, we're just draining it as fast as possible. If you start expanding it out, your body will naturally, you know, switch energy systems and that's not going to get you the signal it's going to get a different signal. 0 (46m 22s): Yeah. And I'm also curious, and your thoughts on this is can this sort of translate into other things that you do? Cause like I I'm a golfer. I know we talking about Brad a lot here, but Brad's Brad, you know, I think he set the record for the fastest hole. That's how I found them the world record for the fastest playing the fastest golf hole. But you know, I'm always, you know, nowadays with golf trying to hit it, I'm not like going crazy, trying to find speed because I hit it a decent while. But you know, getting, getting speed this way and, and, and building up the fast Twitch muscles muscles, I'm assuming this could be a crossover into other AF AF athletic endeavors. 1 (47m 4s): I, I definitely think so. Yeah. I mean, I think the, you know, you're kind of forcing the body to adapt in different ways. Like I said, the aerobic system just kicks in to clean up the mess. So you're building your robot system without even, you know, like you said, doing those long, long rest periods. And that was the most fascinating part about the Nevada original research was his four minute protocol people were doing as well on a 5k run as they were practicing 5k runs all the time. So the, you know, just four minutes versus, you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes of running, it was the same sort of building up the aerobic system. 1 (47m 45s): So. 0 (47m 46s): Cool. Wow. And so just to summarize, if people want to get into sort of this high intensity repeat training, right. You know, something quick, fast Twitch, it could be like we mentioned on a bike, even the kettlebell, could you do 1 (48m 4s): Kettlebell swings? Yeah. Yep. 0 (48m 6s): And you want to do, let's just say anywhere from, let's just say seven seconds to 20 seconds of work time and then rest time would be, you know, depending on the individual you want to probably take that work interval and times it by maybe five to 10 times that 1 (48m 24s): Yep. That seems reasonable. Yeah. Yep. So 0 (48m 27s): Like, and then, but you want to make sure that that work, that rest time is enough, so you can come back and give that same output the next time. Exactly. Yep. And then let's just say maybe four at the most 10 reps of it. 1 (48m 45s): Yeah. It probably depends on the, oh, I'm sorry. 0 (48m 49s): 10 rounds. Yes, yes, yep. What I'm saying. Okay. 1 (48m 52s): Yeah. Yep. And it depends on how intense it is, you know, if it's, you know, like you said that that bike echo bike, it's intense because it's getting your legs, your arms, everything, it's hard to keep that power up, you know, something, gosh, what is a different one? That's not as intense, you know, like a sled push, maybe, you know, you're going to hit all the lower legs. Maybe you can do more of those or something, you know, and again, it's going to be 0 (49m 20s): A rower. 1 (49m 20s): Yep. Yep. It's going to be individual individualized. Some people are just going to have, you know, the ratios of type one to type two fibers are going to be different in different parts of the body. So, 0 (49m 32s): Awesome. A lot of good information maybe before we end, I, I like to ask this question and I sort of asked it to you earlier, but maybe if you'd give, give one tip to someone getting up into their fifties, sixties and beyond what one tip would you give them if they wanted to maybe get their body back to what it used to be back in their, you know, in their list of say in their thirties, 1 (49m 54s): I gave one tip. I think it'd probably focus. I mean, it depends a little bit on their diet versus what they're doing, exercise wise and probably work on the one they're doing the least on, I think diet wise, it probably going to be the most important piece. You know, I think for me, it's eating less processed foods and you know, if the person's eating a lot of processed food, cutting that out, we'll change things like crazy and they'll feel all kinds of benefits and, you know, be it even if they're doing, you know, carbohydrates versus not, I think it really matter as long as it's not super processed. I mean, I think people can do well on oatmeal and less processed foods, you know, and, and not just have a keto diet, but I think eating less processed is probably my biggest tip if I had to for somebody. 0 (50m 42s): Yeah. Totally agree with that. And, and Craig, if people want to find, are you still writing stuff? I know what's the best place for people to find you. 1 (50m 52s): I mean, if people want to email me, they can just email firstname.lastname@example.org. I love talking to people about these things. I mean, I'm a researcher, so this is like fun for me to do these types of things. But I, I write for breaking massage every once in a while, still a strong first and T nation. So my articles kind of come out there every once in a while. So. 0 (51m 15s): Great. Well Craig, thank you so much for coming on. This was a lot of great information that I'm sure people can take and apply and I sure have so thanks again. It's 1 (51m 27s): Been my pleasure. It's been fun talking with you. 0 (51m 29s): All right, Greg. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the get lean eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show email@example.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member has looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.