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episode #266

Interview with Dr. Chris Knobbe: Are Seed Oils, NOT Sugar, The Primary Driver of Obesity & Chronic Disease?

July 2, 2023 in Podcast


This week I interviewed opthamologist, nutrition researcher, and author, Dr. Chris Knobbe!

Dr. Knobbe is also the founder and president of two non-profits: Ancestral Health Foundation and Cure AMD Foundation. In this episode, we discuss the rise of vegetable (seed) oils and their link to autoimmune disease and obesity along with:

  • What Has Caused the Rise in Omega 6 - Linoleic Acid
  • The Issues With Eating Pork and Chicken
  • Why Sugar is Not to Blame for Our Health Issues
and Dr. Knobbe's Major Rules to Take Charge of Your Health!

Brian (1s):

Coming up on the GETLEAN E Clean Podcast

Chris (3s):

In the United Kingdom, sugar has been going down since 1961, it up through, up through the nineties, and it's been almost flat since the nineties. But Obesity was 7% in 19 80, 20 8% in 2019. So it went up. Fourfold and diabetes increased from 2.5% in 1995 to 7.5% in 2018. It tripled, right? But what was going up? Vegetable Oils.

Brian (37s):

Hello, and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm m Brian Gryn and I here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week, I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Opthamologist nutrition researcher and author Dr. Chris Knobbe. He's also the founder and president of two nonprofits, Ancestral Health Foundation, and Cure AMD Foundation. we discuss the rise of vegetable and it's linked to autoimmune disease and Obesity, along with what has caused the rise of Omega six Linoleic Acid issues with eating chicken and Pork.

Brian (1m 21s):

Why Sugar is Not to Blame for Our, Health Issues, and Dr Kenobi's major rules to take charge of your health. Really enjoyed my Interview with Dr Knobbe. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the show, All. right. Welcome to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I have Dr. Chris Knobbe. Welcome to the show.

Chris (1m 43s):

Thanks, Brian. I appreciate you having me on. It's a pleasure.

Brian (1m 46s):

Yeah. I've been listening to you do the podcast scene a bit here, enjoying your interviews, and I was like, I gotta get you on, you know, we'll talk all about your book, the Ancestral Diet Revolution. Okay. What sort of sparked you to write that book and get into, you know, Seed Oils? I know you're an opthamologist by trade. Right,

Chris (2m 5s):

Right, right. So yeah, it's a long story, but I'll make it really, really brief. Brian. I, I, I really probably ended up in nutrition research out of my own suffering, which is mostly arthritis. And, and I, I began to research that in 2011 when my o when I made some dietary changes sort of towards an, a paleo diet, and that dramatically improved my arthritis. And I eventually be, came across Weston A Prices research in 2013 and read his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, which was absolutely life-changing for me.

Chris (2m 55s):

Probably changed the entire course of my life, really. And then I hypothesis I, that year I hypothesized that processed foods might be driving age related macular degeneration, AMD, the leading pause of irreversible vision loss and blindness in people over the age of 50 worldwide. And so I, I researched that for about a year and a half. And by February of 2015, I was so convinced that that hypothesis held water, that I left practice and began to pursue that full-time. And so, so, and that we researched that data regarding that in 25 nations.

Chris (3m 39s):

And that data completely supported the hypothesis. and we published a paper. I then I published a book on macular degeneration and, and started a nonprofit foundation, Cure AMD Foundation. And then, but by 20 17, 18 19, Brian, I just was so convinced that Seed Oils vegetable Oils, the highly polyunsaturated vegetable Oils, I probably should say are, are such major drivers of Obesity and Chronic Disease, like heart disease, strokes, cancer, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, that I began to pursue that.

Chris (4m 19s):

And I really presented on that for the first time in, in terms of, you know, regarding the, the kind of this broad scope of Chronic Disease and diet, especially, you know, vegetable Oils that I went public with that in 2019 at the Ancestral Health Symposium, which was held at the University of University of California San Diego. And this has kind of, you know, led my life in that path ever since because it's, it's really been life changing for, you know, we think lots of people, we, you know, we, we think we've reached a few million people with this message.

Chris (4m 60s):

And so in about 2020, I started working on this book, this latest book, the Ancestral Diet Revolution. And yeah, it's been a very long process. But finally now it's, it's out and available online and at online bookstores that is, and, and so we're very proud of it. So it's that book, by the way, is, you know, myself and a co-author Suzanne Alexander, who's also put a couple of years of her life into this, into this research and this, this book,

Brian (5m 32s):

How'd you connect with Suzanne?

Chris (5m 35s):

So she reached out to me. She, she's a, a, a teacher by trade, but she's got really about 40 years of nutrition research experience herself. And I don't mean in the lab research, I mean more academic type research. Mm. And, and so she's, she's a very smart individual and she and I collaborated on this book over the last couple of years. And yeah, so, so I, I'm in Colorado, she's in New York, so a lot of that was done, you know, kind of long distance, but yeah.

Chris (6m 17s):

But, so it came together. Well, we, we believe,

Brian (6m 21s):

And so you were, you had an opthamologist ophthalmology practice it, and yeah,

Chris (6m 27s):

So I practiced ophthalmology from 1991 and until 2015, so about 24 years in ophthalmology. And so, yeah, I left practice in 20, in February of 2015. It's been more than eight years now to pursue this. And, and, and we recently started a second nonprofit foundation, Ancestral Health Foundation. And it's through these foundations, Brian, that we hope to do anthropologic studies on ancestrally living populations around the world of kind of getting what, where we should be talking about at the end maybe.

Chris (7m 10s):

But that's our ultimate goal, is to do research that will and, and publish paper. So, because that's what I believe will change allopathic medicine forever, because allopathic medicine, as you probably know, let's just go back to this, they just don't recognize that diet has hardly anything to do with Obesity and Chronic Disease for the most part, except that they'll, you know, they do, they do admit that it's processed foods causing a lot of the problem. But, but for the most part, the, you know, the allopathic conventional medicine does not recognize that, that it is diet driving Obesity and Chronic Disease and that, and, and, and there's an, there's a complete ignorance about this.

Chris (7m 59s):

I wasn't taught anything about nutrition in medical school. And for 21 years after I graduated from medical school, from 1990 when I graduated, which is here at the University of Colorado School of Medicine until 2011, I absolutely had no clue at all that that, you know, diet was driving any of this Chronic Disease really, maybe o other than overweight to some, to some degree, you know? But I, I didn't, I hadn't had no understanding of it whatsoever. So this has all been done, you know, based on my own research, you know, mostly, you know, through books and papers and,

Brian (8m 39s):

And has it, do you think that trainings for health professionals, has it changed since the nineties? Or is it, is it, oh, no. Okay.

Chris (8m 48s):

No, I don't think if, if it has very little. So I, you know, I, as I probably wrote in maybe one or both of my last two books, I don't think I got even five minutes of nutrition education in four years of medical school. And if, and what I did get would've been wrong. So the, the, if, if there was any, it probably would've been, you know, saturated fat causes heart disease, saturated fat raises, cholesterol and cholesterol causes heart disease. And, and it would've been as, you know, as simple as that. And so I, you know, I bought that, that story like almost all the rest of, you know, a allopath trained physicians.

Chris (9m 30s):

And so I, I didn't understand any of that, and that, that was wrong until at least 2007.

Brian (9m 40s):

And regarding vegetable Oils, you went sort of started researching res vegetable Oils when you were looking into processed foods and realizing that they were pretty much in every processed food you could imagine. Is that sort of how that came about?

Chris (9m 55s):

Yeah, I would say that, you know, the, I was convinced that vegetable Oils were a problem from west a prices research, which I, which I, I read, as I've mentioned, I read his book in 2013. And, and price evaluated people on five continents, 14 nations, hundreds of tribes and villages and thousands upon thousands of people. And, and he just, for those who've never heard this story, he, he found that those people who were westernizing their diets and essentially replacing their native traditional foods with our westernized foods, which he, you know, he stated were refined flowers, refined sugars, vegetable fats he called them, which is vegetable Oils, canned, good sweets, confectionary, and the like.

Chris (10m 47s):

Those people developed degenerative diseases. It started with dental decay, and they developed arthritis and cancer and so on. And so, I was convinced in 2013 that vegetable Oils were a part of the problem. But in prices day, which is the 1930s, especially outside of the United States and United Kingdom and some of Europe, vegetable oil were extremely low consumption, right? So, they, so it wasn't a big deal to price at that time because it wasn't, it, you know, they, they, the, the consumption was so low o overall, but he knew that they were nutrient deficient and part of the problem, that's primarily what price knew at the time. That's all that was possible for him to know.

Chris (11m 29s):

He's extraordinarily brilliant individual and accomplished more in a lifetime than I can imagine. But, but, but anyway, so, but when I, when we researched vegetable Oils and macular degeneration, you know, what we found was that every single nation that had increasing vegetable Oils had increasing age-related macular degeneration. And those countries in the South Pacific that had almost no vegetable oil had normals, no macular degeneration, extraordinarily rare, like one in 500 people over the age of 60, whereas it's one in three people over the age of 75 in the US and one of 11 people over the age of 52 today is you.

Chris (12m 12s):

And so, and, and, and what we see, Brian, is, you know, if I just go back to the history really quickly. So the world had almost no vegetable Oils through all of history. You look back millennia, all there was was tiny, tiny amounts of all oil, coconut oil, and sesame oil, for the most part, trivial amounts of couple others, but for, for the most part, through most of history, that's, that's what it was. And so the, those are actually the health, some of the healthier Oils. And, and the first vegetable oil, cotton Seed oil was introduced in the United States right after the, the ending of the American Civil War.

Chris (12m 53s):

So 1865 So, we got, we got cotton Seed oil in the, in the diet in about 1866, and be because manufacturers had determined that they, you know, what, what was once machine oil and lamp oil and then fertilizer and then cattle feed, they realized they could feed, feed cattle and not kill them. So, they tried to sell it to people, but people didn't wanna buy cotton Seed oil because they So they associated it with machine oil and lamp oil, right? Rightfully so, which we still should. And so manufacturers couldn't really just sell cotton Seed oil. They tried to, you know, just containers of cotton, Seed oil.

Chris (13m 34s):

And, and for the most part, Americans weren't, they weren't interested in that. They, they, I think sure. They thought it was ridiculous. And so the manufacturers then began to adulterate various things. Well, they started with adulterating butter, essentially, which then they called margarine. And then they had, then they, a adulterated olive oil beginning in the 1870s. And by 1880, the French made complaint because they were getting what was supposed to be olive oil from the United States. And it was, instead they knew it was adulterated with cotton Seed oil, they could tell just by the taste.

Chris (14m 14s):

And anyway, so, but we had very, very low consumption of these Oils through 1909, about one to two grams per day from 1866 to 1908. And then in 1909, soybean oil entered. And all of a sudden in 1909, we're already at like nine grams of total vegetable oil per day. And then what happened is then manufacturers, they knew this was a big moneymaking opportunity, So, they, then we got, so, so that, you know, we had at that point cotton Seed oil and soybean oil. Then we got corn canola, eventually cotton Seed, or, well, we had cotton Seed, grape Seed, grape Seed, sunflower, safflower, rice bran, sesame, and peanut Oils.

Chris (14m 58s):

These all entered the food supply. And so let me just give you a couple more numbers. So by 1961, Americans were consuming an average of 19 and a half grams of vegetable oil per day. And by 2010, we're 80 grams per day All, right? So in, let me just, you know, throw this statistic out. So if you think about it, in 1865, we had absolutely zero vegetable oil consumption. If you would've used the term vegetable oil to any American in the, in 1865, they would've looked at you puzzled, because they, nobody had ever heard that term, and it still shouldn't be used because they don't come from vegetables. But anyway, So, we were absolutely zero in, in, in 1908, we would've been about one to two grams a day.

Chris (15m 41s):

And then again, by 2010, where 80 grams a day, 80 grams of oil is 720 calories. That's 32% of US caloric intake. Almost a third of our calories are coming from vegetable oil today. Now, if that doesn't account for losses, so at the worst, you know, the lowest consumption is about 24%. So around a fourth to a third of our typical American diets are made up of vegetable Oils, which didn't exist up through the American Civil War, essentially worldwide. And what we've seen with that is all these diseases like coronary heart disease, cancers, type two diabetes, metabolic syndrome, Alzheimer's disease, dementia, age-related macular degeneration, all the autoimmune diseases, they've all exploded in prevalence in incidents and prevalence since that time.

Chris (16m 35s):

So, so, you know, very quickly, so for example, coronary heart disease was just virtually unknown in the 19th century. Between 1800 and 1900, there's eight papers on coronary heart disease for the entire century worldwide. And two of those on thrombotic coronary heart disease, which is the equivalent of myocardial infarction heart attack, right? That's how rare it was. In fact, the first known heart attack was not yet, you know, documented in the United States was 1912, James Herrick physician published a paper at that, you know, on documented heart attack and with autopsy evidence. And it wasn't even taken seriously for about a decade because nobody, you know, nobody was aware of heart disease, of coronary heart disease, all heart disease.

Chris (17m 23s):

At that time, there was heart disease, but it was all valvular, which is, you know, infectious that comes from syphilis endocarditis, and I just went blank on the third one. But, but in anyway, all infectious type disease. So, and, and then, you know, so coronary heart disease just exploded, and it's been a similar scenario with cancer.

Brian (17m 45s):

Yeah, I mean, I've read some of the articles and I looked, I've gone through your book and I mean, there's so much backing this, it's hard to argue with it. Yeah. What was the reason that Seed, Oils or vegetable Oils, which can probably be used inter interchangeably, what was the reason they, they were brought into the market was to preserve foods? you know, how come they got involved in industrial manufacturing and processing

Chris (18m 14s):

One reason profit? Absolutely one reason it was profit. The, the goal of manufacturers was to make money. And, and, and you, you know, with vegetable Oils, it wasn't because they thought they were healthy, or I don't think they knew that they were dangerous at that time at all. But the, the, but the goal was always profit. And so the, the goal was to outsell butter and lard and even beef tallow. And because throughout all of history, everywhere you look, people cooked with animal fats throughout all of history, except essentially where they had olive trees.

Chris (18m 58s):

And olive trees covered a very small segment of the geography of the entire world. You know, for example, it was mo they were mostly in a few places in, in Europe and in California up through the mid 19th century. That's the only places that had that. And, and of course that's where they primarily are today. But, so, but e even throughout all of history, olive oil has had a very, very, very low consumption. And in fact, it's only, even today, olive oil only counts for one or one and a half percent of the total global consumption of Oils. All the rest are, are vegetable Oils. And so, again, so that this is what happened, it, the, the, the manufacturers, they succeeded in their goal.

Chris (19m 43s):

Their goal was to replace butter lard and beef tallow. And that's exactly what they did. So in the, in the year 1900, when coronary heart disease was unknown by vir, almost every physician in the world when Alzheimer's had never been diagnosed, when there was never had been a case of macular degeneration known in the United States, for example, when Obesity was 1.1%, 1.2%, when type two diabetes was an extraordinary rarity, that animal fats a accounted for 99% of the added fats in the diet, animal fats, large butter and beef towel.

Chris (20m 27s):

By 2005, 86% of the added fats in the diet came from vegetable Oils. And with that, of course, we've had this explosion of all of this, of Obesity and Chronic Disease. And that's what's still happening, is we still have increasing vegetable consumption throughout almost the entire world. And it continues to replace and supplant the animal fats. And, and with that, again, all of these diseases continue to, to just explode.

Brian (21m 1s):

And the thing about it is, I mean, I know it's in pretty much every processed food, but you also can find it in health foods as as well. Yes. I mean, you can go to like, you know, whole Foods, right? Go down, go into, you know, where they have the pre-made, you know, buffet or whatever you want to call it. I mean, and you, they, they state the ingredients and, and it's, you'd be hard pressed not to find an industrial Seed oil in there.

Chris (21m 25s):

Yes. If you even go to, you know, to Whole Foods. And, and even, and as you mentioned, like the pr you know, for those whole food grocery stores that have, you know, ready, prepared food that you can just prepare a plate of food. They do have all the ingredients listed for every single one of 'em. And almost every single one that I've seen has canola oil. And canola oil is about 20% Omega, six Linoleic Acid soybean oil is about 54 to 56%. Omega six Linoleic Acid la and safflower oil is about 78%. So, but, so that's kind of the gamut. All these vegetable Oils they have, the Omega six runs from about 20% to 78%.

Chris (22m 10s):

But if you contrast that to ancestrally raised animals, beef, you know, beef, chicken, and Pork, all of those will have an Omega six, Linoleic Acid of about two to two and a half percent. And this is all proven. And so this is what, you know, we should be consuming in our, in our diets, less than 2% Omega six Omega, six Linoleic Acid. And the reason I know this, Brian, is because I've examined multiple hunter gatherer diets, And, you know, in other words, the populations on the planet that, that still have absolutely no processed foods and are of course are incredibly healthy, have no coronary heart disease, no diabetes, no Obesity, almost no cancer.

Chris (23m 4s):

And what are their, what is their Omega six consumption? It's all under 2%. Every single one of them, their total pufa is usually under, which is Omega six, and Omega three is usually under 2%. And I can give you some examples, but contrast that to where western diets put us today. And the Omega six Linoleic Acid consumption ranges from about seven to 12%. Now, we modeled in our research, and this is, this paper has been submitted for publication, it's pending publication, but we modeled American diets in 1865 before there was any vest Oils at all.

Chris (23m 44s):

And all of course, all ancestrally raised animals, and which, which does make a significant difference. And the Omega six consumption was around 1.1% of the diet. It was about 2.2 to 2.6 grams of Omega six LA per day. That increased to about 4.84 grams. By 1909 when we had cotton Seed oil and, and soybean oil, which is about 2.2800000000000002% I think of, of the diet by 1999 with it was 19 grams of Omega six LA per day, which is around 7% of the diet.

Chris (24m 26s):

And by 2008, we're at 29 grams of Omega six LA per person per day, which is 11.8% of the diet. This is the recipe for disaster because that Omega six accumulates in our bodies, accumulates in our, in our body fat, in our cells, and in our cell membranes. And this sets up a pro oxidative, pro-inflammatory, toxic and nutrient deficient environment, you know, biological malu. And, and, and again, this is the recipe for disaster. And everywhere you look as the vegetable go up, you see the body, you'll see the Omega six LA in the body fat go up.

Chris (25m 8s):

And with that, an explosion of o of Obesity and diabetes and metabolic syndrome and cancer,

Brian (25m 15s):

Now it's wet. Does it make a difference whether it's heated or not? you know, cuz

Chris (25m 20s):

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But it either, so the heated is the worst and people, everybody knows that that fast food is dangerous. Everybody just inherently knows this, but they don't seem to know why other than they think it's sugar. For the most part, it's NOT Sugar because if you, if if you eat fast food every day and you don't drink Coca-Cola or Pepsi, whatever it is that they, you know, that, that, you know, those sugary drinks, the sugar sweetened beverages that they serve at these fast food places, you're still gonna have the same problems. And the reason why is because they're all cooking inve oil. They're cooking almost exclusively in canola oil and soybean oil.

Chris (26m 3s):

They're never cooking in large butter or beef tallow. Right. They once did, McDonald's used to cook in beef tallow until the Center for Science and Public Interest back in the 1980s said, you know, you're killing people with that saturated, you know, all the saturated fat, that animal fat you're cooking those french fries in. And of course, you know, so then they, so then they, you know, they buckled and they started cooking in, i, I think they cook in canola oil primarily, but I'm not dead sure about that. But they cook in vegetable oil.

Brian (26m 35s):

Yeah. And I was reading on, there's a company called Zero Acre, I'm sure you're familiar with them. They make a, they make an oil that's, you know, very low in LA that you can cook in, in high heat. And there were some stats they were showing, but how inefficient it is to make these Oils, like for five table stu five tablespoons of grapes, Seed oil, it requires 625 grapes. Yeah. you know, five tablespoons of corn oil requires 98 years of corn. So, you know. Right, right. It just seems not sustainable, although it's happening, you know?

Brian (27m 16s):


Chris (27m 17s):

Yeah, yeah. It absolutely makes no sense at all that we should really ever be consuming vegetable oil. And I, I tell people, Brian, that if they, they should, if they think vegetable Oils are healthy, they might ought first just take a look at how they're manufactured. And there's a, there's a good video on YouTube, you might have seen it, and I think it's called canola oil, how it's made, take a wa you know, take, take, take, observe that. And it's just, it's just a few minutes. And it'll be shocking to most people to, to actually see what the Oils look like because they're, you know, they're crushed, heated, pressed, and they go through about four or five heatings during the process, and then they're, the, the Oils are chemically al colonized, chemically bleached, and chemically deodorized before they're prepared to go in the bottle.

Chris (28m 12s):

I made that sound really simple. But if you look at the, these are major factories, you ca if you look at these, these factories that produce the Oils, they look a lot like a petroleum refinery, but these are vegetable oil refineries. And if you, if you google, just google images of quote vegetable oil refineries, end quote, you'll start seeing what they look like. And, and if you watch the process, you'll see, you know, what it takes to make them. I think most people, if they watch that, they'll think, I cannot believe I'm eating this stuff. you know that cuz it looks like it should be machine oil and lamp oil, and that's what it should be. Now, these are Chronic, metabolic biological poisons is what vegetable Oils are.

Chris (28m 56s):

And I've been saying this, you know, for, for four years now, and I can get into the reasons why if you want to,

Brian (29m 3s):

Well, Linoleic Acid is for one thing, right? It's unstable, it oxidizes very easily. So when it's heated, that's like, at it, when it's at its worse. And you mentioned canola, peanut rice, brand cotton scene. The thing is, you can't really taste you, you can't tell that these are in your products. So you either gotta read the label or a lot of times, you know, you go to restaurants, And, you know, most people don't ask what, what they're cooking their food in. But it's, it's most, it's 99% of the time it's, it's these Oils. So it's almost like a silent killer.

Chris (29m 38s):

Yeah, absolutely. Is a silent killer. And that's, you know, the, the fact is, is vegetable Oils, as I mentioned, are Chronic metabolic poisons. They're not acute poisons for the, for the most part they, you know, they, you know. But I would submit to you that if, if in 1865 we had no Oils, and in 1866 we had 80 grams a day like we do today, there would've been shocking evidence, literally almost, you know, within weeks or months or within the first couple of years, they would've seen just an extraordinary explosion of, of overweight and Chronic Disease.

Chris (30m 17s):

And it would've been well known. But because this, you know, the consumption ramped up so slowly, you know, like I mentioned, zero grams in 18 65, 9 grams in 19 0 9, 19 and a half grams in 19 61, 80 grams in 2010, this allowed all of this Chronic Disease to just insidiously increase. Right? And so therefore, then it's th th this was the perfect way to introduce a poison into the, in, into the food supply, slow and then tell people it's healthy. And that's exactly what they did. They've been telling people, people, it's healthy. In fact, they coined the term as best I can tell, vegetable Oils in the early 20th century.

Chris (31m 1s):

And the reason they did sounds healthy is cause it does. Right. And none of that, not one of these Oils comes from a vegetable. Right. There isn't such a thing. They come from, you know, the ones that are really dangerous that we talked about, Seed, they come from seeds mostly and beans. Right? So most of them were seeds and then soybeans. Right.

Brian (31m 20s):

And Crisco, were they the first in the early nineties to, to, to sell this for human consumption, right?

Chris (31m 27s):

That was, so Crisco represents the, the very first partially hydrogenated fat, which which gives us trans, you know, artificially produced or industrial industrially produced trans fats, which are completely different than the natural trans fats of animal fat. But yeah, so, so Crisco was introduced in 1911 by Proctor and Gamble. Proctor and Gamble were So they were soap and, and candle makers. And their, you know, their candle making business was drying up because of electricity at the time. And So, they literally, you know, looked at their, their candles and they said, you know, this kind of looks like lard.

Chris (32m 12s):

And they had, they, they partnered with a, a German scientist, ec Kaiser, if I remember right. And in 1907, and they, and they, and they's how they, they first manufactured Crisco, which is they took cotton Seed oil and bubbled hydrogen gas through it while, while boiling it in the presence of a nickel catalyst. And this is how you produce this partially hydrogenated oil, which again, they, they, they just made something that looked kind of like lard. And that was their goal was to, with that product, was to outsell lard. And whereas margarine was, you know, produced more, I think it began, they first began to produce in the 1870s, and that was again, to replace butter.

Chris (33m 0s):

And what they were doing is they were taking cotton Seed oil and mixing it with butter and selling it as margarine.

Brian (33m 9s):

Now in the, in your book, you have a lot of studies, a lot of, you know, you cite a lot of studies. Was there one that sort of sticks out, you know, cuz you know, obviously studies have their different variables and, and their pros and cons. But was there one that sort of stuck out to you?

Chris (33m 26s):

Well, I think the, the animal studies are, are, you know, where they've put animals on, you know, various Omega, six containing diets. Those are particularly striking. So I could mention a couple of those, or at least one of those if you want me to.

Brian (33m 45s):

And I was just reading, actually looking at a post looks like in 2021, what was the most recent one done? This one looks like it was done on acute anterior uveitis, a severe eye inflammation. Is, was this something that, have you seen this one? I could, you

Chris (34m 2s):

Mean that is related to Seed Oils,

Brian (34m 4s):

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (34m 6s):

And I, I'm not aware of that. Okay.

Brian (34m 7s):


Chris (34m 8s):

But, but U uveitis is an autoimmune disorder and all of the autoimmune disorders have exploded again since the, since the 19th century. And we've seen an extraordinary increase. I can give you those numbers in autoimmune disorders. So like everything from like lupus, multiple sclerosis, Crohn's disease ulcer, ulcerative colitis, there's over a hundred of these autoimmune disorders today. But they were rare in the 19th century. And just since, you know, between 1985 and 2015, we've seen just that the data proves that the autoimmune disorders have increased on an average of, in terms of incidents, a hundred percent every five to six years between 1985 and 2015, a hundred percent increase every five to six years.

Chris (35m 2s):

Why? Well, again, the one thing, and this is globally, and the one thing going up is vegetable oil. And the, the reason this is true is because vegetable Oils create the, a, a biological malu in the intestine that is ripe for leaky gut, increased intestinal permeability. This is, I think the, one of the primary causes of autoimmunity with, you cannot have autoimmunity, I don't believe, without having leaky gut. It's a prerequisite. And, and the best way to set that up is through processed foods and vegetable Oils is, you know, is to create that situation.

Chris (35m 44s):

But if we go back to, I'll mention Brian, the, go back to one of these studies, I happen to have this in front of me. So I'm looking at this, this data on this Sure. On this, the diets of, and, and a study of soybean oil versus sugar in animals. So, so I have one here where these researchers, they, they, they compared rodent chow, which is 1.2% Omega six Linoleic Acid la right? This was, and this diet was 4% sugar. These, these rodents, they, they grew up to be n normal size, the equivalent of like, if we call that the equivalent of 170 pound man, and then they've had a second, then there was more groups than what I'm gonna mention here, but I'll just mention three of 'em.

Chris (36m 34s):

That a second group that was 10% Omega, six la which was 19% soybean oil, which is typical, absolutely typical of Americans. This is exactly what Americans are doing around 20% vegetable oil in their diet. Right? We talked about it. Or 24% even. Right? But anyway, the second, I'm sorry, so the second one was 10% Omega six la which is lower than Americans as of 2008, but it was also, this diet was 25.9% fructose. So that's huge amount of sugar, right? And these animals gained up to, they, they averaged the human equivalent of 261 pounds So.

Chris (37m 17s):

they, they, they get, they weighed about 90 pounds more in terms of human equivalent as compared to the child growth. Right? And this is in over 32 weeks, eight months basically All, right? Okay. Third group was 10% Omega six la which is 19% soybean oil, again, but no sugar at all. And that group had the worst outcome. They, they, they had the human, human equivalent of 277 pounds So, they outweighed the group that was the high, the the Seed oil and the high sugar, they outweighed them by 16 pounds. And they had by far the worst non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.

Chris (37m 57s):

N a ffl d most insulin Resistance, the most diabetes, the most hip hepatocyte ballooning. Everything about them was the, the worst. So actually that there was protection from the sugar. Now, I'm not advising based on this, that people consume more sugar. Sugar is part of the problem because it's a nutrient deficient food, but it's not toxic except in extraordinarily high doses, which is what they use in a lot of these animal studies like this one. Yeah. That's a very, very high dose of, of, nobody's getting 26% of their diet as, as fructose. Cuz fructose is half of sugar sucrose or table sugar is made up of glucose and fructose 50 50 mix.

Chris (38m 38s):

Right? And, and, and high fructose corn syrup is about 55% fructose and 45% glucose. But nobody's consuming 26% of their diet as fructose. Naturally, that would be the equivalent of, you know, 52% of your diet is sugar. It doesn't happen anywhere. Americans consume more sugar per capita than any, any, any nation in the world. And our consumption is around 20%, 21% of our diet as of 2010. Right.

Brian (39m 9s):

So yeah, I I, I close to that. I dunno if you're familiar, I'm sorry, I dunno if you're familiar with Dr. Ray Pete. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've had some of his sort of disciples on the show and Georgie dink off has come on. He's actually coming back on. Yeah, I mean, you know, they talk about how sugar sugar's not to be blamed really. And, and this is, this is sort of proof that that study showing that, you know, it was more so the Linoleic Acid and, and, and the Oils that you're using to cook in or, you know, that are in the foods. It's interesting. So go ahead.

Chris (39m 46s):

Yeah. The, the, the sugar consumption, just, just while we're on this subject, the sugar consumption in the us Brian, we have this data. We've published this data and Stephan gne also published the same data. And our, our data is virtually identical because they come from the same data sets going all the way. We're, we're the only ones that're, those two of us are the only ones that I know of that have published data on sugar consumption going clear back, G N A and his colleague, they published sugar consumption in the US clear back to 1822. We found it back to 1840. But, but 1890 sugar consumption in the US was 10.8% of calories already in 1890.

Chris (40m 32s):

And this is when Obesity was 1.2% and diabetes was 2.8 per hundred thousand. It was 0.0028% of the population. Extraordinarily rare. Right. And in nine, in, in 1907, sugar consumption was 15.8% of the diet All. right. The American, or I'm sorry, the World Health Organization today tells us we should not consume more than 10% of our calories as sugar. And yet we exceeded that by half. you know? But you know, in, in, in 1907, back when ma you know, back when Obesity was around 1% diabetes was practically unknown.

Chris (41m 16s):

Metabolic syndrome had never been diagnosed. There had never been a case of Alzheimer's disease ever. The first one was diagnosed in 1908. There'd never been a heart attack in the US that we, you know, that documented. Cause that came in 1912 and,

Brian (41m 30s):

And sugar consumption was pretty high back then. Sugar

Chris (41m 32s):

Consumption was 15.8% of the diet And, you know, by, by 1935, sugar consumption was 440 calories per day. 22% of caloric consumption. What was Obesity then? Round three or 4%? We don't have exact numbers, so that's interpolated data. But you know, because we know that Obesity was about 1.2% in the 19th century. And the next data we have was 13% Obesity in 1960. So, so, but, but sugar consumption, 1935 was 22% of the diet. 440 calories, where was it in 2016?

Chris (42m 12s):

Sugar consumption, 24% of the diet 526 calories in 2016. So between 1935 and 2016 and 2016, sugar consumption went up 84 calories and 1.5% of the diet as an absolute number. Not much. Not much. We've had, oh no, yeah, it's virtually flat. I mean it's almost flat in terms of the, you know what, it's a little bit increase in calories, 84 calories. That's, I think, you know, roughly five teaspoons of sugar. So there's very little change between 1935. And nobody will disagree that we've had an explosion of Obesity and Chronic, Disease of heart disease, cancer, you know, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, Alzheimer's, dementia, you know, age-related macular degeneration.

Chris (43m 5s):

All of this has exploded since then. It's not the sugar, it cannot possibly be the evidence everywhere I look, you know, it shows the same thing. We, you know, that So, we, you know, we've shown that, for example, and we'll publish all of this data in coming months and years that, for example, in Australia, sugar consumption and carbohydrate consumption has been going down since 1961. But Obesity increased, I think threefold diabetes, you know, an explosion. I'm trying to remember what the number, I can't remember exactly what that number was.

Chris (43m 48s):

I might have it here. Let's see. I think I do Brian, so I just won't throw, throw this out. So, okay, so Obesity increased from 9% in 1980 to 31.3% in 2018. This is Australia. Okay? But the sugar consumption was declining and so was the carbohydrate consumption. But what was going up vegetable Oils and the United Kingdom, I'm sorry, I don't, so I don't have the numbers on the diabetes in the United Kingdom. Sugar has been going down since 1961, it up through, up through the nineties and it's been almost flat since the nineties. But Obesity was 7% in 19 80, 20 8% in 2019.

Chris (44m 31s):

So it went up, fourfold and diabetes increased from two point a half percent in 1995 to 7.5% in 2018. It tripled. Right? But what was going up vegetable Oils, and it's, and it's a very similar story. I'll give you, you know, some very interesting numbers in Japan if you want me to. It's the same story, right? you know, it's the same story. And in the United States we've have sugar going down at somewhere at least since 2004 and probably since 1999. So minor discrepancies in data sets there. But sugar's been going down since either 1999 or 2004.

Chris (45m 14s):

Carbohydrates have been going down in the US since 1997. Total calories have been going down since 2002. And yet this is when we've had the worst explosion of Obesity and diabetes and metabolic syndrome in is in the last 20 years. And autoimmune diseases is in the last 20 years. Right. But what's going on? And it's still the vegetable whales, they continue to replace the an, you know, the animal fats.

Brian (45m 41s):

So yeah, I mean let's talk about some steps people could take to Sure. you know, cuz obviously there's a lot of data there. And definitely I would check out your book for sure called the Ancestral Diet Revolution, how Vegetable Oil and Processed Foods, destroyer Health and How to recover. And so let's talk about some steps. And I like how you did in the back of the book, which I saw ways that we can sort of change our health destiny and obviously the first one is to avoid all high proof of vegetable Oils, you know, soybean, corn, canola, cotton, Seed wrap, Seed, grape Seed sunflower. You, you know, you can do, you can make a song out of it if you want. And so to replace those best animal are animal fats, correct?

Brian (46m 28s):

Yes. You got lard, ghee, things like that. Butter, grass-fed butter for things that high heat, those are great, right? I I think butter, you gotta be a little bit careful at high heat if I'm, if I'm not, if that's correct. But I know ghee beef, talo, seit la even cooking in that and nowadays you can find those. But a big one, I think too is just not, not going out to eat a lot. I, and it's interesting thing when, when Covid hit and everything closed down, and I saw this with actually a few of, like my friends that probably went out to dinner more than they probably should.

Brian (47m 9s):

They lost weight, you know, they really, they looked better just from cooking from themselves at home. Yeah. Cuz I don't think, I don't know, at least from my peop the friends that I'm around, like, I don't think people go out necessarily and buy th buy these Oils. I mean, maybe a lot of people do and maybe certain spheres of the globe. But cooking for yourself is such a big one, I think. I think that's like that, that that'll go such a long way.

Chris (47m 37s):

Absolutely. And I, I just, I just have to, you know, maybe reiterate what you're saying, that my experience has been that there's been a lot of people who mistakenly believe that because they're not using vegetable Oils, they're not pouring vegetable Oils into their own food, that they're not getting any Mm. And nothing can be further from the truth because if you're consuming processed foods at all, anything pre-packaged, ready to eat or any,

Brian (48m 7s):

All all these bars, all these bars,

Chris (48m 9s):

All yeah, all restaurant foods, all, all fast foods, they're all made with vegetable oil almost. you know, very, very few restaurants are cooking exclusively with butter, for example. So, but yeah, and I would just recommend in terms of, you know, practicality, you know, if we get to the sort of the pragmatics of, of this is I would recommend cooking everything in butter as much as possible. I think that's the easiest and safest thing to do. And if you need a lot of oil for something, coconut oil is a, is a really good choice because it's 2% Omega six LA

Brian (48m 47s):

And what about avocado oil?

Chris (48m 49s):

Yeah, the prob, so avocado oil is about 14% Omega six LA so it's not nearly as safe right off the bat to cook with at, you know, as coconut oil or palm kernel oil, which are both 2% LA and it's, that's where butter would be. It's one and a half to two and half percent Omega six LA And so,

Brian (49m 13s):

Okay, so it's not quite, it's yeah.

Chris (49m 15s):

Yeah. And two, two other huge problems with olive oil and avocado oil. Same thing as what happened in the 19th century. We have the, we have a worst problem today probably that these are the Oils that are most adulterated with cheap vegetable Oils. Right? So 79% of the olive oil in the United States recently was, you know, shown by the, the National American Olive Oil Association. N A O O A I believe that is to not meet criteria for good quality standards of olive oil. Meaning they're either adulterated or they're, you know, they're too old and they're oxidized and you know, they're, these are not good Oils.

Chris (49m 59s):

So most people that even when they think they're getting olive oil, four out of five bottles on a statistical basis are not going to be even good decent quality olive oil. Unfortunately, you know, we still have this problem going on today. So there's adulteration is, is a global problem of, of these Oils and that's, it's a very similar situation for avocado oil. Those Oils are ex pretty expensive to make. And so, you know, and if, if you can get a, a big bottle of oil for $14, it's adulterated I almost guarantee it. In general, most of 'em are gonna be adulterated.

Brian (50m 38s):

Yeah. And so you gotta, you gotta know where this, where it's coming from. So extra virgins, olive oil from a good source, you know, you can use that as a dressing and you could cook in it if, if you know, if the source is correct. Right. And then, like you mentioned, butter, coconut oil is a good one. If, if you don't wanna, if you're maybe a vegetarian

Chris (50m 60s):

Yeah, absolutely. Or, or anybody could cook in coconut oil. But I would recommend, number one, I think it's, for most people it's easiest to get rid of all of their Oils because even coconut oil, which is fine, but just everybody should keep in mind that none of the vegetable Oils whe whether they're good or not have any vitamins a D or k2, which you will get in butter for example. And you will get those in beef towel and you get let much lesser amounts in Pork lard. And I should mention really quickly, Brian, I think that people need to be a little cautious about the kinds of chicken and Pork they consume.

Chris (51m 46s):

Because if those animals are fed corn and soy like they are in CAFOs concentrated animal feeding operations today, they will, because those are monogastric animals like humans, they will develop very high Omega six in their body fat up to around 20% Omega six la Whereas if those animals, chicken and pigs are fed Ancestral diets, which means they get no corn and soy, I mean these are, you know, chicken and Pork are, they're both omnivores, right? They eat, they eat other animals and they eat plants like humans do. And, but anyway they can, they can develop very high levels of Omega six LA in their body fat.

Chris (52m 29s):

So if you're consuming those animals that those meats off the shelf in grocery stores, you're almost always getting a cafo fa, you know, CAFO raised and corn and soy fed animals. So you have to, you have, you have to find those. Whereas with beef or any ruminants, any ungulates, the, the ruminants that have that are poly gastric, they, one of their, one of their stomachs is a essentially a bio hydrogenation chamber and you they can convert high Omega six into monounsaturated fat. So in other words, they can take and take Omega six LA and convert it into monounsaturated fat and saturated fat and then they will store that in their body fat and they will have very low LA So even a corn and soy fed pal will have Omega six LA that's around two and a half to maybe three and half percent of the body fat.

Chris (53m 24s):

Whereas a hundred percent grass fed cow will have closer to 2% Omega six la. So very little difference. Again, compare that. So even in a cafa raised, you know, cow, cow, you know, beef, right? You're, you may only be getting three, you know, two and a half to three and half percent Omega six LA contrast that to 56% LA in soybean oil, which is the most commonly used pufa oil in the world today. It's the second most commonly consumed oil, the number one oil in the wor worldwide is palm oil, which is, doesn't get very good, you know, has very relatively pretty low consumption in the US cuz nobody uses it for anything other than some for some processed foods.

Chris (54m 10s):

But, but it's, you know, it's has pretty big consumption in, in, in Asia for example.

Brian (54m 17s):

Yeah. Your, your, you know, your, your point on the, the cows versus chicken and Pork. Actually, when this comes out, I'll, I, I'll have an interview already out with some ranchers. Ranchers and dairy farmers and they talked about that in particular. The interesting thing is cows are most, most of the cows, even if it's conventionally raised, like just the health status of that just is be so far beyond the conventionally raised chicken and Pork. So I guess from that standpoint, if you are going out to eat, you know, I would stick with, if, if you eat those things, I, I would stick with meat over the chicken or the Pork.

Brian (54m 59s):

Cuz I think people go out to eat and they think they have, like, they get an iced piece of chicken on a salad, they think they're eating healthy. It's sort of, you know, and, and yet they're getting these, you know, high amounts of Omega sixes.

Chris (55m 11s):

Yeah. So if you do, if you do consume CAFO raised chicken, for example, then the safest thing to do is to consume the, the cuts of meat that have the lowest fat, which would be like a chicken breast Okay. With no skin and no fat. Right. If you, you know, if you, but even those, the la the Omega six LA is gonna be substantially higher, about four times higher than it would be in a ancestrally raised chicken. Yeah. So again, that would be like a, you know, chickens that are, that are fed, you know, a na a natural diet.

Chris (55m 53s):

So, you know, chickens, chickens, again, they're omnivores. you know, people who think chickens are vegans that's, there are no more vegans than we are. I mean, generally speaking they're omnivores and they eat, they, you know, they eat worms and bugs and, and you know, carry on. They're, you know, decaying flesh, all kinds of flesh. They'll eat, they'll eat, you know, rodents and snakes and all that if they can get them. And then they, they also, but they eat plants too, you know, so they're eating, you know, they'll, they'll eat fruit and vegetables and, and greens, all that. So

Brian (56m 30s):


Chris (56m 30s):

That's what, that's what a chicken, that's what chickens should be eating.

Brian (56m 33s):

Right. And it's, it's tough to find that, you know, I, I go to, I use a source company called Force in Nature and they have, you know, quality chicken cuz my wife likes to eat it up. But yeah, so I think you're best off. Yeah, like you said, either finding leaner cuts of meat, of, of chicken meat or just maybe going with steak if, if you've gotta chew between the two and you're going out to dinner, gotta, you know, so is there anything else like people could do, you know, before we close things up here as far as, you know, sort of taking their health in their own hands.

Chris (57m 11s):

Okay. So as far as, you know, very quickly just to sort of recap Yeah. Is to get your Omega six down and get it low, get it to an Ancestral level. You wanna have your Omega six under 2% of your diet. There's only one way to get there. Number one, eliminate your ve the vegetable Oils, the Seed Oils have to be eliminated. Number two is avoid CAFO raised chicken and Pork number three, you is cut out nuts and seeds at least for a while, at least for several years because that's how long it'll take to get your Omega six LA in your body, fat in your cells and your cell membranes down to an Ancestral level. And then, you know, and then the next thing is once you do that, next steps are get rid of processed foods because then you're eliminating, you know, for the most part, refined sugars and refined flour.

Chris (58m 0s):

Right? And so now you've eliminated. So, so that's it. Th those are the huge steps. If you just want to get, you know, the low hanging fruit, if you eliminate vegetable Oils, refined flo and sugars, you're, I think for most people you're 95% of the way there towards an Ancestral diet. So then you can eat anything you want to, you know, any kind of food, when people say, well can I have Chinese food or Mexican food or Brazilian food, whatever, that makes no difference what it is as long as the ingredients are Ancestral and, and, and Ancestral ingredients means no vegetable, little, you know, I I would say, you know, small amounts of sugar and small, very small amounts or, or no refined flour essentially that's those right there are the big steps.

Chris (58m 49s):

That's the low hanging fruit to easily get to. And I'm not saying this is easy to do, you have to be very vigilant in order to, you know, to con to consume an Ancestral diet. But that's how you do it. That's how you do

Brian (59m 1s):

It. And when you say nuts and seeds are like, let's say someone likes macadamia nuts.

Chris (59m 6s):

Oh that, okay, that's the one that's low in la.

Brian (59m 8s):

Okay. Yes. Okay. Macadamia nuts. What about pistachios? I do like pistachios sometimes.

Chris (59m 13s):

No, they're, I don't know the number off the top of my head, but they're, all of the nuts and seeds will be high in LA except macadamia nets. Macadamia nets are 2% Omega six LA So if you're, if you wanna consume nuts, that's the one. Got it. you know, you know, there could be other issues for people with those and I wouldn't, I would not recommend nuts be a staple for anyone cuz they're, they're not really, they should never be considered staples of the diet because they couldn't be, you know, for any population ever in history, nobody had huge amounts of nuts to eat. you know? I mean there's been a couple of populations that, you know, the kung sand for example, that consume a fair amount of Mong Gogo nuts.

Chris (59m 56s):

But it's because they can't get, they're starving and they literally just can't get enough. you know, they can't kill enough animals to survive. So they're eating Mongo nuts and they're not, these people are not, it's one of the few hunter gatherer populations that is not doing, you know, they're not doing very well. Their kids have, their kids are starved, they're malnourished and have qua or you know, the distended bes and things like that. So, but anyway, that's the low hanging fruit, that's what you, that's how people get, you know, get towards an Ancestral diet.

Brian (1h 0m 29s):

All. right. Chris, well thank you so much for coming on. Best place for people to find you.

Chris (1h 0m 35s):

Yes, Brian. Well thanks for having me on. And yeah, So, we have, well, as I mentioned two foundations, Cure AMD Foundation and Ancestral Health Foundation, the latter. Our website will be coming along here shortly. That'll be at Ancestral health foundation.org. Cure AMD Foundation is at Cure ad.org. We have Facebook for both of those foundations. We have Twitter for both of those foundations. Instagram for both. I am on Twitter, but I'm not very active. I'm at, at Chris Kenobi, md I'm not very active at

Brian (1h 1m 16s):

All. And I'll put, I'll put, that's fine. I'm not, I'm not a big Twitter guy, but I'll put Links in the show notes for all that. And then as well as your book, the Ancestral Diet Revolution, which was recently, you know, published in paperback and hardcover. I see. Right. And yeah, any, anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. That should be good to go. Well, Chris, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing all this knowledge and hopefully people will take a little bit from it and, and, and implement it into their lives.

Chris (1h 1m 43s):

Sounds great. Brian, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on.

Brian (1h 1m 48s):

Thanks for listening to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other Podcasts out there, and you've chosen to listen to mine, and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned In, this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.

Dr. Chris Knobbe

Dr. Chris Knobbe is a physician, researcher, ophthalmologist, author, speaker, and Professor Emeritus, focusing on the dangers of processed foods and vegetable oils.


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