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episode #167

Interview with Dr. Bill Campbell: Fat Loss, Optimal Protein and Maximize Muscle Gain!

July 27, 2022 in Podcast


This week I interviewed Exercise Science Professor and Physique Scientist Dr. Bill Campbell!  His research is focused on exercise performance and enhancing physiques through resistance exercise and nutrition. He has published three books on sports nutrition, including the NSCA’s Guide to Sport and Exercise Nutrition. In this episode we discussed: - Principles of Fat Loss - Optimal Protein Requirements - How to Maximize and Preserve Muscle Mass - Ideal body fat % to have a defined 6 pack - Calories vs. Insulin Model of Weight Loss and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was!

0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean eat clean podcast. 1 (3s): Think about whey protein is it has the highest amount of leucine and leucine is a, an amino acid that will trigger muscle protein synthesis. So whey protein has more of that than the other sources. The other thing that it does is post-workout whey protein is also insulinogenic meaning that it will spike insulin and after a workout, what insulin will do well, we'll do it anytime, but insulin will actually suppress muscle protein breakdown. It will lower it. So that what whey protein offers is it kind of is a very anabolic protein, but it's also anti catabolic because of its effects on insulin secretion. 1 (45s): So that's, I like, I like whey protein post-workout for that reason. 0 (52s): Hello, and welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was in five, 10, even 15 years ago, each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week, I interviewed exercise science, professor and physique scientist, Dr. Bill Campbell, his research has focused on exercise performance and enhancing physiques through resistance, exercise and nutrition. He's published three books on sports nutrition, including the <inaudible> guide to sports and exercise nutrition. 0 (1m 33s): We discussed principles of fat loss, optimal protein requirements, how to maximize and preserve muscle mass ideal body fat percentage to have a defined six pack the calories versus insulin model of weight loss, and is one tip to get your body back to what it once was tons of great info on this interview with Dr. Bill. I know you'll enjoy it. I did too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the interview. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. My name is Brian grin and I have Dr. Bill Campbell on welcome to the show. 1 (2m 10s): Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to have a conversation with you. 0 (2m 13s): Yeah. Excited to have on Dr. Bill is a world's leading physique scientist. I thought that was cool. And actually what drew me to Dr. Bill was his Instagram, which he does all himself. Tons of great questions. I almost, as I use it almost as a resource. And so I was like, I got to get this guy on my podcast. So what, what got you interested in, I guess, being a physique scientist and also an exercise science professor. 1 (2m 43s): Yeah. So the easy answer is bodybuilding. When I was younger, I, I love bodybuilding and particularly I love like sports supplements, dietary supplements, and how they could enhance the body's adaptations to training or nutrition. And now I've that 95% of that is garbage, but that's what initially got me in. So resistance training, trying to build big muscles, trying to speed up the progress with supplementation. So it was really my passion for that, for, for bodybuilding. Now I'm, I would say I studied bodybuilding. 1 (3m 23s): They're the world's experts in fat loss, but my research and probably my, my target audience and in terms of who my research serves are for not necessarily bodybuilders like competitive bodybuilders, but for people like me, my wife, where we want to look like we're bodybuilders, but we actually have a life. We don't want to live in the gym while we want to go get some ice cream with our kids. And so I almost call it like a lifestyle physique approach. 0 (3m 51s): Yeah. I love that you might have to change your Instagram. And, and with that said, what, what did you learn through? I mean, how many years have you been researching? Just, you know, weightlifting and bodybuilding. 1 (4m 8s): Yeah. So when I was in grad school, I, I was involved in obesity research. There'll be city on one side and then, and this was in females and then sports performance with dietary supplements on the other side. So that was my, my upbringing as a grad student. And I've been a professor at USF for 15 years and I've kind of done the same things I used to do much more sports nutrition. Now I'm solely physique or fat loss building muscle. So that that's how long I've been doing it. And I guess over my career started with obese individuals. And now I'm, I'm a little bit more in this space where I do fat loss research on people who really don't need to lose fat. 1 (4m 50s): They're already lean, but they just wanna, they either want to maintain it or they want to just live a lifestyle of leanness. And, and one other thing is I said earlier, I studied bodybuilders. The only difference that I do is study what bodybuilders do, and then you just dial it back a few degrees. And that seems to be able to fit most people's lifestyles in terms of their training and nutritional habits that they're able to sustain over a period of time. 0 (5m 21s): Gotcha. And what would you say some of the biggest things that you learned from bodybuilders that you can apply obviously to just regular everyday people that maybe are looking to get their bodies back or, you know, lose a few inches? 1 (5m 35s): Yeah, I think the biggest lesson that bodybuilders have done for a long time and that more recently, the research has validated is a high protein diet. It doesn't have to be extremely high, like some body builders do, but the data, the evidence is pretty clear. If you want to have a leaner physique, I higher than average protein diet will support that. 0 (6m 2s): And that makes sense. And we're starting to hear that a lot just in my podcast and just the nutrition world is to prioritize protein. And you hear differing amounts. Are we talking like a gram per pound on average? Or what would you say or does it depend probably on the individual? 1 (6m 17s): So yeah, I'll, I'll end with the individual approach to this, but I, I typically recommend a gram per pound just because that covers all bases. That's probably overkill for maximizing muscle mass, but there's other research, not as much, but let's just say in theory, and my belief is that actually will cause a lower level of body fat as well. When you get higher amounts of protein in terms of, does everybody need to do that? No, if you get, let's say 0.7, five grams per pound, that's what, that's what I think. And other scientists believe is enough to nearly maximize gains in muscle mass. 1 (7m 2s): So if you think of like a curve, like an asymptote that goes like this, and then it levels out at the top, that's kind of what protein does. Your biggest benefits are going to keep going up and up and up till you get to about 1.6 grams per kg in terms of muscle mass. Once you start going over that the, the benefits are still there, but they become progressively less and less and less doesn't mean there's not a benefit. It just means that it's not, it may not be worth if you're struggling to get 1.8 grams per pound, let's say it may not be worth it for you to try to get more thinking that this is going to be a, have a huge impact on your body. 1 (7m 44s): I don't think it will. But again, if you do go a little higher, I believe that it does cause additional fat loss, even when calories are, are, are not reduced, that's somewhat controversial, but I have data to support that. And then the other thing is people that do diet when they reduce their calories, a higher protein diet really helps with sustaining a diet because it makes us the one nutrient that makes you feel the fullest for the longest. 0 (8m 13s): Yeah. And when you say, when we say one gram per pound of body weight, or is it lean mass 1 (8m 20s): Per, per pound of body weight? So real quick, I'm about 200 pounds, right? I need, I would aim for 200 grams of protein per day. Now just real quick. One lifestyle approach here is, and I kind of have like a phrase that describes my research. It serves people that want to optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. So I have a big emphasis on lifestyle and sustainability. So what I do on the weekends, I usually will increase my calories a little bit and I'll actually drop my protein because the foods that I like let's say like pizza, they don't have, they're not real high protein. So that's when I dropped to 2.8 grams per pound because I'm still mad, still getting plenty, but it allows me to have some more foods that I enjoy and it really fits my lifestyle better with that kind of approach. 0 (9m 11s): Got it. And it's interesting. One of the questions that I, that I highlighted was which of the following is the most important trait to possess when attempting to lose weight. And I'll, I'll say the question, I'll say the answers and see if someone's listening. If they want to answer in their head, one is willpower or a is willpower BS, perseverance C is optimism and D is patience. And w w I obviously know the answer, which is D patients, right? And it's interesting you talk about that. Maybe touch around that. Cause I see a few posts where the key with, with weight loss and diet is having that patience to, to let it sort of come off slowly. 1 (9m 55s): Yeah. And to be clear, they're all important. You want to have aspects of every single one of those, but patience is the one that I think derails everybody. And I describe it like this, my whole career professional career has been around fat loss. I don't think there's many people on the planet who have read more fat loss, weight loss studies than I have, or even published more than I have. And at least in lean people. And I go on diets a lot just because I'm in this space. Sometimes I purposefully gain weight. Sometimes I don't. And every time I go on a diet, every time I get impatient, I'm like this isn't working. 1 (10m 36s): This is going to I, if, if I don't know if I'm struggling with that, and I know this again, who knows this better than me, I do the research. How, where does that put everybody else? So I know that everybody has an exaggerated or unrealistic expectation with the amount of fat loss or weight loss that they expect to get. So it's, it's, it's important. Struggle with it myself, even though I know better. So that's why, and here's a, here's a quick example. Let's say if, if somebody like me or I won't even say me, if somebody loses, they have like 20 pounds that they want to lose and they're losing a pound per week and they're just really struggling. 1 (11m 21s): Like, man, this isn't happening fast enough. Something I always like to say is, are you, are you kidding me in a, if you lose a pound per week, depending on how much you weigh, when you start, you'd be dead within the year. If you continued that pace of weight loss over 50 pounds in a year. So a pound of weight, and hopefully most of it's fact, we can talk about what, what we can do to, to kind of almost assured or to, to bias the weight loss. So it's all fat, but on a daily or weekly basis, it appears slow. And, and I always try to convince people, it try to approach this from a month and no more than a two week assessment period, because you're, if you're looking at this from day to day or even within a week, you're gonna get frustrated at times. 1 (12m 8s): And again, I'm looking in the mirror when I say that. 0 (12m 12s): Yeah. I love that. That, you know, you're also trying these techniques. I'm sure you know, doing all the research, you probably just intrigues you to, to see if it really works. Because I think there is a point of like self experimentation that everyone needs to do. And I try to do it for myself. I know one of your posts, you talk about, you know, what's the fastest rate of weight loss per week. You should strive for when dieting. And that answer was 1% of your body weight, which to some people they'll just get frustrated, like you said, and stop. So it really does come down to just, you know, persevering a little bit. Right. And being patient through the process, knowing that whatever weight you put on, I mean, how many years do you think it took that individual to put that weight on? 0 (12m 54s): I mean, for the most part, it could take a decade to put on that weight. You know, some people put it on really quick over COVID and stuff like that. But for the most part, I'd imagine it took that person a lot of, a lot of time to put that weight on. And so they get it off in the right manner. And we'll talk about that. Is, is it a slow process? 1 (13m 14s): Yeah. In 1%, I think the key word there is that's the maximum rate. Like that's a V that's a pretty good rate. And if you're going to surpass that, if you're going to lose more than that, you're likely losing some lean mass along with your weight. And there's a lot of, a lot of potential harm that can happen. 0 (13m 34s): So let's talk about that. What, what are some of the principles of fat loss? I wrote that down a little bit from some of your posts, losing weight slowly, which we talked about not decreasing protein, right. And then the third one was, which I think sometimes people forget a little bit as resistance training. 1 (13m 52s): Yeah. So those are the principles. If you're going to go on a, a diet trying to lose body weight, and again, we want to, we want to emphasize body fat, not just weight loss, right? Those three things will help you maintain your muscle mass and, and real quick. Why, why is it important to maintain muscle mass? Well, some of the I'm going to call this theoretical, but there's a, there's several prominent historical research, physical researchers that have suggested that when you lose muscle mass, what that does well, first of all, I'll go to the theory in a second. If you lose muscle mass, when dieting your metabolism will be suppressed, your metabolism slows down. 1 (14m 36s): When your metabolism slows down, it becomes harder and harder to continue to lose body fat. The only way that usually happens is you're going to have to keep reducing your calories and further starving yourself. And that is not a good situation. So your slows down, not only does your metabolism slow down, causing it, causing you to have more difficulty in losing fat when your diet is over, you've set, you've primed your body to prioritize the, the addition of body fat, as soon as the diet's over. So a lot of negative consequences to losing muscle mass. The other thing, and this applies to more aggressive dieting. 1 (15m 17s): But the theory is, or what people used to think was when you lose body weight, now the diets over 10 people tend to be hunger hungry. Even when the diets over for a period of time, researchers used to think you have this elevated hunger until you regain lost body fat, basically gaining back the body fat you had prior to when you started the diet. And this goes into the set point theory. To some extent, it's not, it's not the same, but it's in that ballpark. Other researchers have suggested, this is where I think that the data leads me. You have an elevated hunger after a diet until you gain back the muscle mass that you lost. 1 (16m 6s): And there's a famous study called the Minnesota starvation experiment. That was very evident in those people. And again, that was a very aggressive crash dieting type of approach, as many of these were, but in several of these studies, and the theory is you are going to have an elevated hunger and in a severe case, it's, it's called hyperphasia, which is really an uncontrollable desire to eat food that is going to persist until you gain back the muscle mass that you lost when diet. So my approach, what my research lab really embraces is let's maintain muscle mass at all costs during a diet let's, let's take that. 1 (16m 46s): Hyperphasia the propensity to gain fat back after the diets over let's, let's say eliminate that as, as a likely outcome by doing the things that are necessary to maintain muscle mass while dieting 0 (17m 1s): Got it. Yeah. That's such a, it's a good, great point to make. And when you talk about dieting, I know there's a bunch of theories around that. Are you, what, what is your research brought to you? As far as, you know, we all know not all calories are equal and you know, you have a lot of people. I've had Dr. Ben Beekman on and Dr. Jason Fung on who are very in, in the insulin camp and in making sure that we, you know, get insulin low through fasting and through low carb. And then you have other people who are sort of in the calorie camp, where it's all about calories, what is your research line? And, and, and, and what's your thoughts around now? 1 (17m 42s): I, I don't subscribe to the insulin hypothesis. I believe that, or the evidence that anybody can lose weight, as long as you're in a caloric deficit, whether it's high carb, low carb, the, the, the key things that have to be controlled for in a research study or to the things, the caloric deficit. So making sure that both groups had an equal reduction in calories. And then the other one, which you just mentioned, not all calories are equal. You have to also control for protein intake. Protein is a very powerful nutrient when it comes to dieting. I mean, it, it really helps maintain muscle mass. It helps keep metabolic rate high. I'm not anti ketogenic diet or low carb at all. 1 (18m 26s): In fact, I've, I've, I've when I used, well, I did one bodybuilding show. That was the approach I took. So I think that is a great diet approach for some people. In fact, it's probably the best diet for controlling hunger, right? Problem is in my observation, it's very difficult for a lot of people to maintain that type of diet for a period of time. So yeah, it, you can lose body fat with high insulin. Here's an example I use in my class, if your maintenance calories are 2000 calories per day. So if you eat 2000 calories per day, we know that you would not gain body weight, nor would you lose body weight. 1 (19m 11s): Now let's say you ate 1500 calories per day. So that's a 500 calorie reduction or to 25% caloric deficit every day. If you, if you got those calories, 100% of them from Skittles or cotton candy, just a very high-glycemic sugar, that's going to spike insulin high, but you would lose body fat. So I that's an example. Now what I ever suggest such a diet? No, it's not a helpful guide. There's no, there's no, 0 (19m 42s): There's no nutrients, 1 (19m 44s): No nutrient, but my point is caloric deficits are the primary factor in weight loss, but again, low carb diets better for some people not, not better for others. I would suggest that our typical sedentary American eats way too many carbs. They don't need a lot of carbs. If you're active resistance training, just, you know, playing, playing recreational sports, you probably, you can use more carbs in that case to, to perform and feel better. You don't have to. Now, the other thing is on the performance side of this, if you're an anaerobic athlete, a low carb diet is, is clearly inferior. 1 (20m 27s): You will, according to the, to the evidence, you will not perform as well. Anaerobically. 0 (20m 32s): And when you say anaerobic, do you mean like weightlifting? Like, go ahead, 1 (20m 38s): Like hockey players, soccer, like anything where you have to do yes. Sprinting. Cause that's the body needs to, to the body prefers 0 (20m 49s): To 1 (20m 50s): Oxidize or break down carbs for quick energy. And when you, when you, when you eliminate that your body has to rely on another fuel source, which is not burned as fast. So then your performance suffers. 0 (21m 2s): Okay. So for someone who has maybes in a click quick explosive sport, eating carbs could definitely help for sure. 1 (21m 11s): Yeah. According to the, well, the research would suggest low carb diets are not conducive to optimizing performance in anaerobic athletes. And let me also say this. I don't have any products. I have an educational product, but I don't, I don't, I don't have a low card book. I don't have supplements. I don't have, I don't have any reason to say that low carb diets are, are inferior or superior. Like I, I guess I would, I have no conflicts. I don't, I mean, I don't care. I, again, I actually liked low carb diets for the fact that they help with hunger. I just appreciate a lot of people get frustrated because they it's a little too restrictive on many of the foods for extended periods of time. 0 (21m 56s): Gotcha. And what about protein supplementation? I know you've done some posts around that and I get that question quite a bit is like, what would be the most superior choice as far as protein is concerned for muscle protein synthesis and building muscle? 1 (22m 14s): What would, what was the question? What would be the, what, 0 (22m 16s): Like if someone's going to supplement with protein, what would be, what would be the best choice as far as for supplementation? Yeah. 1 (22m 24s): Yeah. I always liked to answer this. If I was on a deserted island and I only had one protein source that I could eat for the rest of my life on this time, I would choose whey protein, but casings, great. Soy is good. If you don't want to avoid animal pea protein, if you take more rice, like even the, the plant-based sources, as long as you take more, they're going to be just as good. You just need more of them because they don't have as much leucine or essential amino acids. The, the thing about whey protein is it has the highest amount of leucine and leucine is a, an amino acid that will trigger muscle protein synthesis. 1 (23m 5s): So whey protein has more of that than the other sources. The other thing that it does is post-workout whey protein is also insulinogenic meaning that it will spike insulin and after a workout, what insulin will do well, we'll do it anytime, but insulin will actually suppress muscle protein breakdown. It will lower it. So that what whey protein offers is it kind of is a very anabolic protein, but it's also anti catabolic because of its effects on insulin secretion. So that's, I, I like, I like whey protein post-workout for that reason, I like casein, which is the other milk, protein casein, and whey casing makes me feel fuller longer. 1 (23m 50s): It tends to during the digestive process, it clumps in the stomach. So I like it for, for myself in the morning, just make me feel fuller longer. So I like casing for that. But 0 (24m 2s): What, what type of things do you have that FKC, didn't like, like would like cottage cheese or any, any, any type of deer? I like, I like using cottage cheese with my, with like eggs and stuff. 1 (24m 12s): Yes. I just bought hubs of casing protein, 0 (24m 17s): But 1 (24m 18s): Cottage cheese. Yes. That's a perfect, I wish I'd liked it. My wife eats that a lot. I wish I liked it because that's, that's casing that's that's and I would also suggest if you can get your protein through whole foods, that's a better approach. I struggle with that. And I like the convenience of supplements. So that's why I use supplements to help me reach my goals, but I, you know, and I can only eat so much chicken breast or tuna where I'm just like, ah, just give me two scoops of protein for 50 grams. It just makes it easier for me. 0 (24m 50s): Yeah. And I find for myself, like, I, I, we talk a lot about on this podcast, fasting I'm, I'm, I'm curious your, your thoughts are on fasting. And if you've done some studies regarding that, and for a while, I've been doing resistance training in a fastest state. And you know, but occasionally I lately I've been trying to see how I perform. If I have maybe a little bit of cottage, cheese, and eggs, or cottage, cheese, and fruit, maybe a couple hours before the workout, just to see how I perform. W what are your thoughts? And have you done some studies around fasting and whether fasting in an, in a, in a working out in a fastest state has some benefits or working out and having, you know, something in your system would be beneficial. 1 (25m 33s): Yeah. I've not done any research in my own lab on fasting. My lifestyle is such that I don't eat in the morning until, I mean, 10 o'clock would be the earliest that I would eat. And I, I came to that conclusion just because I I'm, I'm not hungry in the morning. Like if I eat a meeting for some other reason than hunger, right. And I am much more hungry in the evening. So essentially I bank those calories for the evening when I am hungry. So that's, that's my lifestyle in terms of is that superior or not the one thing that delaying, let's say you don't eat until noon. 1 (26m 16s): There is one thing that you are giving up, and that is a morning protein feeding. So if your goal is to maximize muscle mass muscle hypertrophy, fasting, this would be like a time restricted feeding approach. You are sacrificing some 0 (26m 33s): Right. 1 (26m 34s): Well, you're mad. You're, you're compromising your ability to maximize muscle mass. How much would you lose? I don't know, but you're not maximizing. And that's based on two studies that I'm aware of one at the cellular level one in, in bodybuilders that, that Lauren lifting for eight weeks where they actually manipulated morning protein intakes, but in a fat loss phase, I really liked the idea of fasting for some people, if you're not hungry in the morning and your primary goal is fat loss. And when I say that, that means that you're willing to sacrifice some muscle mass. Now, again, we want to do everything we can to preserve it, but we also appreciate if your primary goal is fat loss and you're not gonna, you're not hungry in the morning. 1 (27m 19s): I think it's a good approach. I actually just read a study where they compared time restricted feeding to flexible dieting. And what I love about the study was they told the flexible dieting group reduce your calories by 500 per day. And these were people that were resistance training. They told the time restricted feeding group don't don't diet. Like we don't want you to reduce your calories. What we do want you to limit your feeding between the hours of noon and eight. And at the end of this study, what they realized was they also reduced their calories by, by approximately the same amount without consciously dieting. They had to consciously restrict their feeding window. 1 (27m 59s): So that, that really, that study kind of changed my perspective. I used to think, well, I wouldn't recommend time restricted feeding. Now, if you can tell somebody, you don't need the diet, just limit your feeding window. And then likely what's going to happen is they're going to diet, but psychologically they're not, they don't have this dieting umbrella over their head all day. Like, oh, I'm dieting. I'm going to be hungry and grouchy. No, I just have to wait until noon to eat. Don't eat past eight. So it's kind of like they snuck in a diet, but psychologically the subjects weren't dieting in their heads. And then that study, they lost equal amounts of body fat, that particular study. 1 (28m 40s): I'm trying to remember if it was the significant difference in, in muscle mass. I, I, I think it was fairly minimal difference. They, they may have sacrificed a little bit of muscle, but again, if the goal is fat loss and I also think prioritize your goal and then pursue that if you're at a fat loss phase, pursue fat loss, if you're trying to build muscle build muscle. Now within that, go ahead and build muscle, try not to gain a ton of fat. And when you're in a fat loss phase for Sue that try not to lose muscle, but embrace the phase that you're in and pursue that with your, with your resources. 0 (29m 13s): Yeah. I love that. And that study with the, with the fast thing I do find true because just for my own, my own case, like I used to eat, let's just say three meals a day. And then when I started fasting, I just w it was natural to have two meals. And that's all I get is two meals a day and minimal snacking at all. And so, but yeah, I, I, I'm probably doing some type of calorie, restricted diet that I'm not even thinking of. Cause I'm just eating till I'm satisfied. I almost find like that. I, I actually eat less when, when I implement the fasting as opposed to if I started by eating window right away, you know, then so I like the fact that what with fasting does it gives you structure. 1 (29m 57s): Yes. Yeah. And let me ask you, so you do your workout in the morning and then you eat like at noon and then like at seven, like what's, what's your, how do you structure your, your fitness with your, with your feeding patterns? 0 (30m 10s): Yeah, so it's, it's evolved over the years, but recently I've been over the last probably year or two I've been doing where my workouts midday. So let's just say noon or one o'clock and then breaking my fast after that. 1 (30m 23s): Okay. 0 (30m 24s): So, you know, maybe start eating around 1 30, 2 ish. I'll I'll break a fast. And I find for myself, I like to do higher protein, moderate, like fat. I'm not a big tar guy in the middle of the day. I just find that it weighs me down a little bit. I more so backload my carbs if I'm going to have them. And, and then I'll have another meal, maybe around five 30, but I will say it is tough. And I, and that's why I like what you said was figure out what stage you're in and what your goal is. Because I think for me sometimes, and I think maybe this is something new to try is like, when I am sort of in a muscle building stage, maybe I should have those three meals and then prioritize protein. 0 (31m 9s): It will be so much easier for me to get I'm 170 pounds to get 170 grams of protein in two meals is, can be tough. It's, it's a lot of, a lot of steak. 1 (31m 21s): Yeah. And there is a limit on a per feeding basis with muscle protein synthesis. So it's based on the limited evidence that we have. It would suggest that you can't, that is not ideal to do it into, to build muscle or to maximize the anabolic response to feeding. 0 (31m 41s): Right. I think, I think w what I've heard from some of the researches, like four times of, of, of spiking muscle protein synthesis is ideal. Does that sound about right? 1 (31m 51s): Yeah, I would say, yeah. I always say three to five, but in, for being the sweet spot and what that can look like is breakfast, lunch, dinner, post-workout it could also be breakfast, lunch, dinner pre, like right before bed. So, yeah, I, I, I think four is a great goal that fits a lot of people's lifestyles as well. 0 (32m 13s): Yeah. And what are your thoughts around people that are maybe 50 plus, and, you know, they, they're trying to get their protein goals in, but there's also research out there showing that as you age it's, you don't absorb protein as well as you did, maybe when you were in your twenties. 1 (32m 31s): Yeah. So the research that I'm familiar with is that, that you need more protein and because yeah. Your body a little bit muted too, the anabolic response to the protein. So the, the one, the one fix to that, or the attempted fix is to, just to have greater amounts of protein that, yeah. And, and I'm trying to think, what decade does that mean? Clearly the later in life now, one thing I would suggest is we, we are lacking research in people that data does not exist in people who have been resistance training throughout their lives. So is it possible that people that have been training throughout their lives, do they somehow negate that? 1 (33m 18s): I don't know, but it's, it's an interesting question that over time we'll have that data. 0 (33m 24s): Okay. Yeah. And I noticed one of your posts, I think a lot of, a lot of guys would, would, and even women would, would find this interesting what body fat percentage makes weight, what body fat percentage do males need to reach to have a defined six pack. And, and was this based off of just your own, just like your own studies. 1 (33m 49s): Yes. This is based off my career, you know, 20 years of fitness experience and measuring based off of DEXA skinfolds ultrasound, mostly ultrasound. Cause that's what I've been doing for the last, probably 12 years here, but also have some many, many Dexis and some skinfold. So that's, that's where the, that is where my observations are coming from. 0 (34m 17s): And just so people know for, for the males, it was 12%. 1 (34m 23s): Yeah. Yeah. If I see if, and I, again, I've, I've taken a lot of body composition assessments in my career. So when I see a six pack that's defined, I always try to guess, and that's a very good estimate. Right. 0 (34m 37s): I think that sounds about, I just like I'm right now, nine to 10%. So, and it, it shows, but yeah, I would say probably for me, if it'd probably still be there at 12, I think probably anything more and I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be as defined and it probably depends on your weight. Maybe I would imagine as well, or, or how you carry it as well. 1 (34m 60s): Yeah. That's a big, that's a, that is something else that I've appreciated. Yeah. There you look at, I'll just use females. In this example, we have two females and they're both 16% body fat. One looks pretty lean. The other one doesn't look lean at all and it's simply, how do they carry it? Where are their, their tenderness attachments on their muscles? Their muscles look more defined and, and it's it's, and again, I can make general recommendations, but in some cases, it, it literally how you carry it, how your body is structured. We'll give you a very different look. Even when fat percentages are equal amongst two different people. 0 (35m 41s): Yeah. That's a good point to make. And on that point, I was, I loved your true or false regarding pizza and digestion. You must like pizza. 1 (35m 51s): Yeah. I, we eat my family eats pizza pretty much. I'd say 90% of the time on Sundays, we go to church, we get pizza. We come home, we eat our pizza. 0 (36m 4s): Gotcha. So that's your splurge sounds like, 1 (36m 7s): And have you 0 (36m 8s): Okay. That, that and Skittles? No. 1 (36m 11s): No, I don't like Skittles. I like chocolate chip cookies and Buffalo wings. Those are some of my, my splurges. 0 (36m 19s): And I thought found this interesting as far as how long it takes the body to absorb two pieces of pizza within four hours, or your, your question was do, will you digest pizza within four hours after you eat it two pieces and that's 600 calories and the answer is false and you wrote, it actually takes, gosh, when did you say five? 1 (36m 44s): Was it five, five 0 (36m 45s): Hours? 1 (36m 46s): Yeah. And that's based on a study. So researchers actually went in, you know, they, they measured the contents in the stomach and they measured the glucose response, the, the, the lipid response in the blood. So, yeah, that's a lot longer than I would've thought I would've thought of course it's through my system and in four hours, that's a long time like, wow, that surprised me 0 (37m 7s): Now. And I'm not sure, obviously this study just talked about 600 calories or pizza was ingested by healthy middle-aged males. And they said the macro, the macro nutrient profile was 75 grams of carbs as starch 37 grams of protein, 17 grams of fat. And like you said, you thought maybe three hours, but it was actually five hours. It took to actually get through the system, which is a long time, five hours. Now, do you think it depends on the macro nutrient profile and what you're eating as far as how, how fast it'll get through your system or your, it, it, 1 (37m 40s): Yeah, obviously fats and protein will slow it down carbs if you just eat pure carbs, that that, that will go through fairly rapidly. So, yeah, it's that definitely, probably is the primary contributing factor to an elongated digestion time. 0 (37m 54s): And, and just thinking of that, if for like a pre-workout, is there something that you would recommend for pre-workouts that don't weigh you down and sort of can give you a maybe, you know, that sort of, that sustained energy for that workout? 1 (38m 9s): Yeah. If you want a pre-workout I would say choose one that doesn't have fat because your body doesn't necessarily need fat. You're not going to be fat depleted ever 3% body fat. Right. But even then your body still has plenty of fat to rely on. So yeah, that's what pre-workouts, you'll generally see. They don't have any fat they're mostly carbs. And I think that makes sense. Carbs can give you very quick energy because of their digestion kinetics ability to oxidize them. 0 (38m 42s): What about fruit? Do you think fruits, 1 (38m 45s): Fruits a little bit different fruit. What has higher levels of fruit toast that has to go to the liver? And then the liver converts the F almost all of the fruit toast to glucose. So that's a little more of a, of a delayed response as compared to non fruit toast containing foods. So fruit probably if, again, if you're looking for quicker energy now, again, fruits are great for health. You've got all the phytonutrients for pre and post workout. If your goal is to get carbs into your system quickly, or if your goal is to quickly replenish like a gin levels or the carbs in your muscles and liver after a workout, fruit would not be the best choice. 0 (39m 26s): Gotcha. What would you, what would you say as far as foods are concerned, if you, if you had to pick a pre and a post 1 (39m 31s): Food-based, I love baked potatoes pre and post very quickly digested and absorbed. Doesn't weigh you down. At least not myself. So baked potatoes are great. And then the obvious beverages are like Gatorade or things of that nature 0 (39m 50s): For yeah. For pre, for pre and post. Yeah, 1 (39m 53s): Yeah, yeah. Pre and post in terms of, and even, I mean, depending on what kind of activity you're doing, if you're doing like an endurance workout, when you add glucose and fructose during your workout, now you are, you're, you're able to get more carbs into your body because you have different transporters. Now, granted, the fruit does still has to go to the liver, but during work, during, during exercise, your body will turn that around pretty quickly. 0 (40m 26s): Gotcha. Okay. What about if someone's looking to build muscle, do you recommend, you know, and especially as you age, I, you know, there's a sort of that injury cause concern, and I think you mentioned in one of your posts regarding higher loads versus lower loads, what are your thoughts regarding building muscle and what's the most efficient way to do it? And then maybe what's the safest way for someone that's a little bit older. 1 (40m 52s): I think the most efficient way, if we're looking at the loads or how heavy of weight should we lift, I would suggest a moderate weight. One that allows you to do between eight to 12 repetitions, maybe six to 12. And I would say do that a majority of the time. That doesn't mean you will always have to be there. And the reason I say that's the most efficient is because of the, the two theories that, that regulate muscle growth, the primary factor is mechanical tension. So that's a heavyweight that kind of puts stretch pressure on the muscle fibers. We believe that that mechanical stimulus is then converted into a chemical stimulus that causes elevated muscle protein synthesis and ultimate muscle gain. 1 (41m 41s): The other prime, the other variable that we believe is responsible for increasing muscle mass gains or in muscle hypertrophy is metabolic stress. So those are the workouts where you're feeling a little bit more lactic acid, a lack of oxygen in the muscle, and you would get that feeling through, or you would get that response with lightweights where you're doing a lot of reps. So really heavy weights, kind of maximizes mechanical tension, really lightweights, maximizes, metabolic stress. So this moderate range, again, weights that you can get eight to 12, you're kind of getting the best of both worlds. 1 (42m 21s): You're, you're lifting weights that are heavy enough to, to, to stimulate mechanical tension and the weights aren't, they're also light enough where you're starting to get a little bit of a lactic acid buildup and lack of oxygen in the muscle fibers. So one of the studies we did a few years ago, which I really liked. We did this in resistance, trained females, 20% of the time we had them lift with heavy weights. So less than six reps, another 20% of the time we had them lift with lightweights that allowed them to do about 15 to 20 reps. And then the majority of the time, 60% of the time between six and 14 reps. So this moderate range, and they had a really good response to that resistance training program. 1 (43m 4s): So I like some of everything, but the majority of time kind of in this middle sweet spot area. And let me also say most importantly, make sure each set is taken to near failure. So you want to, you want to be able to only do two, maybe three more reps without, with good form. And, and that you could, like, you want to take each set to where you could only do two, maybe three more reps with good form. So if I have a weight that I could do 10 times, and I only do it four, and then I put it down and I'm like, oh, that was a set that, that didn't do much for optimizing the anabolic stimulus. So the sets need to be taken to near failure, not absolute failure, but near failure. 0 (43m 49s): Got it. All right. Yeah, that makes sense. And so the sweet spot eight to 12, maybe do some workouts where you maybe go up and wait and you do four to six, let's just say, and then, and then maybe you have some days where you do higher volume, maybe 15 to 20. Does that sound about right? 1 (44m 7s): Yep. I love, yup. L I liked that. And you also did mention in your question as you get older, those lighter days, depending on what exercises they're doing, their, their, their joint recovery is admittedly because I'm of the age or getting up the age that matters didn't batter at all. When I was in my twenties, it matters now. So I'm much more conscious of how often go real heavy on my squats and deadlifts. 0 (44m 35s): Yeah. And one thing that, and if, if your listener and you listen to my podcast, I talk a lot about the X three bar with a variable resistance. I don't know if you're familiar with a 1 (44m 45s): Really interesting 0 (44m 46s): Yeah. That Dr. John Jake was shot a couple of times, and I used it. I've been using it probably for two to three years. Now, if you look on my Instagram, you'll see me doing it. And it's all band, it's all bands. There's an Olympic bar and a ground plate. And I like it for my, for anyone, but especially for my, let's say 40 plus 50 plus year old clients, a lot easier on the joints because of the variable resistance. And it's just, it's a great stimulus, I think for muscle growth. Nice. Yeah, definitely check that one out. Well, yeah, I feel like I keep going. You have a great Instagram page though. 0 (45m 26s): If anyone wants to read more of these questions and get their, get the answers and the, and the literature and the proof behind it, which I really liked, because I think there's a lot of stuff on Instagram where it's just hypothetical stuff. People are just throwing stuff out there and saying, they're an expert, but you're actually researching and you have the studies to back it. And every post has that. And I love how you sort of make it in a, in a quiz format. So, and that's your Instagram handles and I'll put links in the show notes. That's at bill Campbell PhD. And I know you have a new website, right. Bill Campbell, phd.com. Right. And tell us about your new program coming up. 1 (46m 8s): So, yeah, so on my website, I'm, I'm offering a, a research review and the research review was called body by science. And what this is, is a, I review or summarize two studies per month that are solely focused on losing body fat and gaining muscle mass. So I know a lot of people want to want to know what the science says, but they don't necessarily have the time. And some people don't even don't have the expertise to be able to digest a full research study. So what I do is, since I do this every day in my profession, I summarize these studies much like I do in my Instagram posts. 1 (46m 50s): It's just now I don't, I'm not limited by whatever 2000 characters or whatever it is. Right. So I'm breaking down the study in a way. That's very understandable. So I actually say in one of them, one of my attributes is it's not too sciency, even though it's all science, you don't have to have a science background to understand this. Right. The other thing that I do is I summarize these studies on fat loss and building muscle. And I also bring in two other experts that are kind of like you, like, maybe you're a coaching act, you're coaching people, or I'm bringing in physicians that work with weight loss or registered dieticians. 1 (47m 30s): And, and what I asked them to do is I said, okay, expert, you've seen how I've summarized the study and made it understandable. How would you apply this into the lives of your clients? Or if you're just somebody who's very serious about your own exercise and nutrition, you don't have clients. How would you apply this? Because just reading research is not enough. You need to have an idea of how it is actually can be practically applied, but which is what you do. That's what you do for all of your clients. That's why they, why that's why you are who you are. So I want, I, I make sure to, to, I think that's the highest value of what I'm offering. It's not just the research, although that's valuable in itself, but it's also giving you ideas on how to apply this to your life. 1 (48m 19s): And it's called body by science. If you go to my website, I have the first issue, the inaugural issue for free. You can download that to see if it's something that you like. And if you do like it, you can be, you can subscribe to the research review every month. 0 (48m 36s): Excellent. That's great. Yeah. And we'll put, we'll put links in the show notes for that. And before we for, we end things, I, and we probably answered this question a few times, but I like to ask all my guests, if you were going to give one tip to a, let's just say middle-aged individual looking to get their bodies back to what they once were, where their, their twenties and thirties, but what one tip would you give them? 1 (49m 0s): I think I would tell them, come up with an extremely conservative workout plan and commit to that a hundred percent don't stretch. Maybe it's two days per week where you're going to lift weights and one day where you're going to walk for whatever it is, but build on the confidence that you can do that. And I'm not an exercise psychologist, but what I think happens a lot is people say exactly what you said their goal is. I want to get my body back in shape to what it was. I'm going to lift five days per week and do cardio the other two days. And I'm going to, you know, reduce my cat it's they're they're expectations are so high. 1 (49m 42s): So, and this may go, I think this may go against a lot of business advice where you're supposed to shoot for the moon, but what I think makes sense, do something very minimal in terms of goals. And if you can be a hundred percent on that, what should be an easy goal for a few months? Well now by all means increase your goal. But now you have the confidence that, you know, you're going to execute on what you said you were going to do. 0 (50m 7s): Yeah, no, I love that. And I use that with a lot of clients is, you know, start, get, start getting some small wins and, and I think, and then you can just build off of that. So I think that's great advice, Dr. Bill. 1 (50m 20s): Well, thank you. 0 (50m 22s): Well, and I appreciate you coming on the, the podcast, so we'll definitely put links in the show notes, check out his Instagram, Dr. Bill Campbell PhD, and yeah, thanks again for coming on. 1 (50m 34s): Thank you for having me. 0 (50m 37s): Thanks for listening to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member has looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Dr. Bill Campbell

This week I interviewed Exercise Science Professor and Physique Scientist Dr. Bill Campbell!  His research is focused on exercise performance and enhancing physiques through resistance exercise and nutrition. He has published three books on sports nutrition, including the NSCA’s Guide to Sport and Exercise Nutrition. In this episode we discussed: - Principles of Fat Loss - Optimal Protein Requirements - How to Maximize and Preserve Muscle Mass - Ideal body fat % to have a defined 6 pack - Calories vs. Insulin Model of Weight Loss and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was!


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