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episode #141

Interview with Dr. Anthony Gustin: Regenerative Agriculture, Rancid Seed Oils and Hadza Tribes

April 25, 2022 in Podcast


This week I interviewed Dr. Anthony Gustin! He is the Founder of Zero Acre Farms, Perfect Keto & Equip Foods, host of The Natural State Podcast, and author of the best-selling book, Keto Answers. We discussed how seed oils are causing obesity, inflammation and chronic disease, along with: - The issue with chicken and pork - Importance of Regenerative Agriculture - What is the deal with Fiber - What we can learn from the Hadza Tribes and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was!

0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): And Greg needs to vilify. People are switching more and more and more to chicken and pork and chicken and pork. Unfortunately again, how they're being raised currently 99%. And yes, even the pasture raised chicken and pork are fed corn and soy, which once you're growing the corn soy on your farm and then feeding it like, again, this is a, this is a system that just is not sustainable by any means. You're growing these enormous monocrop, which are just one species of plant over enormous swath of land that destroys biodiversity, rapes the soil of nutrients and causes enormous problems down the road. And so you're doing that to feed these animals again, even if they're pastured for your age, heritage, whatever, the highest quality you can get, they're made on a system that is inherently not regenerative. 1 (54s): Like I, I don't have any examples that I know of that are regenerative pork or regenerative chicken. So that label to me is confusing. 0 (1m 2s): Hello, and welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interview Dr. Anthony Gustin, he's the founder of zero acre farms, perfect keto and equip foods. He's also the host of the natural state podcast and the author of the best-selling book, keto answers we discussed how CDLs are causing obesity, inflammation, and chronic disease. Along with the issue with chicken and pork importance of regenerative agriculture. 0 (1m 45s): What's the deal with fiber. What we can learn from the HODs of tribes, where he visited and also his one tip to get your body back to what it once was. I really enjoyed interviewing Dr. Anthony Gustin. Hopefully you enjoy it as much as I did and have a great day and thanks so much for listening. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. My name is Brian grin, and I have Dr. Anthony Gustin. Welcome to the show. 1 (2m 11s): Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 0 (2m 13s): Yeah, I appreciate you coming on from Austin, Texas, and I'm excited to have a fellow keto keto keto member, or a former CEO founder of perfect keto. And maybe perhaps tell the audience a little bit about your background, how you got into sort of the health and wellness space. And, and so they just have a little bit of a background. 1 (2m 36s): Yeah, I think that started with me being super fat and sick. When I was younger Chicago guy, you probably know Midwest is not the healthiest place, especially when you're on the suburbs or beyond. And that's where I grew up in Minnesota. And it was just super unhealthy, super fat, super sick knew. I didn't want to live that life and sort of turn that around myself. And I was young and knew that I just wanted to be dedicated to helping other people do that. I didn't know many other options at the time. So I sort of fast tracked it, wanting to be doing more preventative work, working with athletes and things like that. So got my master's in sports rehab in doctorate in chiropractic. When I was dealing with a lot of patients in San Francisco, a couple of clinics there then started launching a lot of information online, building a little bit of an audience there, and then a couple different companies one's equip foods still active and then perfect eat out to just help people with bridging you a keto genic lifestyle and an inappropriate way. 1 (3m 29s): So sort of creating solutions for people, a of information on that. And yeah, it's just always trying to figure out how I can best help people and helping myself learn and, you know, creating new ways to do that. And so, I mean, I think that's that thread has gone a bunch of different places that we can dive in wherever you want, but more recently, and really into regenerative ag got a farm myself here in Texas and I'm starting up and just really looking at, and if we ignore the, the health of our soil, which we're just screwed. And I think that like, you can do all the health biohack stuff, all you want, but man, if we're not taking care of this stuff or there's an expiration date. And so I've been really fascinated with the convergence between what people call a climate or environmental problem. 1 (4m 15s): I think if I think of a, more of an ecological problem of which we're in integral part and integral destroyer and how that relates to health. And so that's kind of like where my most recent focus is on right now. Like how do we integrate those things and help increase health, health span and the health of the population while also restoring ecology. So, 0 (4m 35s): Yeah. Well let's 1 (4m 36s): Say where I'm at now. 0 (4m 38s): No, thank you. I let's go down that, that road as far as I'm Jen regenerative agriculture and like what's going on currently with monocrop agriculture and how that's sort of destroying, you know, our food system. So what have you learned just from your research and, and w what can people take light of that they might not know? 1 (5m 0s): Yeah, not a dogmatic person that comes to nutrition. I've been sort of involved in the real food slash paleo stuff. People call me a paleo guy to begin with. And then I was helping people with Q junk diet and people call me a keto guy. And like, I think a little bit more, I'm certainly not a carnivore ish person, but throughout the whole thing, I've just thought that, Hey, these are, these are tools that people can use, whatever works for you to reach your goals. Totally fine. I think there's some non-negotiable things here. Like you should be eating real food, not processed food. So it's just very clear, like if you're buying super processed and refined stuff made by factories, it's likely not going to be better for you than real food. And that I'll just, you know, nutrients matter. 1 (5m 41s): It's not a calories in calories out saying there's, there's more than that. And as I dug in deeper to this stuff, and this is where I think I get lumped in a little bit more to the animal based crowd I have. And like I said earlier, I'm really interested in, can we grow nutritious food? Yes, yes or no. Like, what does that look like? What do those systems look like? What do those forms look like? What are those processes look like? There is not one option that I'm aware of, of using plants to make nutritious food long-term for humans. Every, every aspect of farming plants requires external inputs to make the thing go. Now, what that means is that it's not a closed system and that you have to be tracking things from the outside and you can't do that. 1 (6m 25s): And definitely a lot of our natural resources that people don't understand, it's much like a bank account. It's not, it's not an infinite supply. And so we're taking things from other places and bringing them on farms to do more plant-based agriculture. I don't think plants are bad, are gonna kill people like a lot of car carnivores folks do. But when you look at it from the perspective of, is this food system truly sustainable to make nutrient dense food for people? The answer is absolutely not for a plant based diet, which is extremely ironic given the position that the plant-based people have, which is that animals are actually the worst thing for the planet when it comes to fruit stuff. So as with almost everything you hear from mainstream media these days is the, the opposite is true. 1 (7m 11s): So it's been fascinating to dig into that cause, and this is the part of my farm of thinking about what are the things that people can do without a lot of extra inputs. And like, even with animal agriculture, I think there's a lot of issues which you can get into, but that's going to be my latest fascination of what is truly on a small scale, on a large scale, on a replicable scale, sustainable, but only sustainable from just providing calories what's sustainable for providing actual nutritious food. I think another enormous issue is that we've depleted our soils with the mineral content that actually needs to exist. And we're now at a point where we are artificially or we're basically like spraying multivitamins on the soil, acting like that is the same as if humans just took a multivitamin ate Doritos, they'd have the same output. 1 (8m 1s): It's ridiculous. And so we're making all this artificial nitrogen and all this stuff from natural gas to even more of an unsustainable thing. But yeah, I'll just, I'll, I'll pause. I mean, I could, I could ran probably for hours about this stuff. I've been going nuts about it, but yeah. Happy for you to ask any questions you have about 0 (8m 17s): Yeah. Is that, so is that part of the reason why you bought, bought a couple of farms? Is it to go into this issue and try to figure out like what works best and, and solve this issue around obviously huge issue around industrialization and what's happening to like our soil? 1 (8m 34s): Yeah. I mean, the way I learn things, whether it's nutrition, health, or anything else is by doing it. And I, I dunno, I think that some people can just read books and learn. I like to get my hands dirty. And so I've been doing that literally, and it is a lot of work. And I think there's a lot of farmers who don't have the background that I have in business and marketing and health and all this type of stuff. I don't see many people looking at it and I don't blame the farmers, but they're not looking at it from a point of how nutrient dense is this food. What is a nutrient content of what I'm, what I'm raising. And I think that what you have happened is you have a lot of smaller farmers over time, where we have a lot of reasons that smart farms are getting smaller. 1 (9m 19s): As large farms and ranches family farms are broken up into smaller parcels and subdivided land cost is going up more fences are going up and we have smaller and smaller plots to grow food as people as that's happening. And red means Abilify, people are switching more and more and more to chicken and pork and chicken and pork. Unfortunately again, how they're being raised currently 99%. And yes, even the pasture raised chicken and pork are fed corn and soy, which once you're growing the corn soy on your farm and then feeding it like, again, this is a, this is a system that just is not sustainable by any means. You're growing these enormous monocrop, which are just one species of plant over enormous swath of land that destroys biodiversity, rapes the soil of nutrients and causes enormous problems down the road. 1 (10m 10s): And so you're doing that to feed these animals again, even if they're pastured for your range, heritage, whatever, the highest quality you can get, they're made on a system that is inherently not regenerative. Like I don't have any examples that I know of that are regenerative pork or regenerative chicken. So that label to me is confusing. There's a couple of small, like wild them farm is a really interesting example that you love forest rags, raise hogs and their results, their nutrient profile, the animal actually looks at the animal should have when you feed them all this corn and soy, it's bad for the environment. And again, this whole thing is connected. When it typically, when it's bad for the environment or ecosystem, it's also bad for our health human health. 1 (10m 50s): These things are all reflected in the same thing. So when you feed these animals, corn and soy, just like humans, they store a massive amount of polyunsaturated, fatty acids, omega six fats linolenic acid, particularly, which makes them extremely unhealthy. So it's just, it's not, it's not lost on me. That, that, that system is the same. Like, no one's looking at how can we raise healthy chickens or pigs? No, one's like, we have models on cattle and it's great, but it takes a lot of land to graze animals. And so I'm more focused on how can small farms produce a lot of nutrient dense food, curious of if we take corn and soy and feed it to a batch of chickens or pigs while simultaneously there's another batch of chickens or pigs and feed them no corn and soy and locally milled grains of whatever, or any sort of supplement. 1 (11m 44s): And the reason you need to do that is because the animals, if they aren't given feed, the carrying capacity for them is dramatically lower set the case for ruminants. So the carrying capacity of land, and let me know if this is too much of a deep dive. 0 (11m 60s): No, this is good. I, I wanted to, I wanted to get into the pork and chicken issue because I don't know. You tell me chicken is and has been on the rise as far as it seems like we've consumed more and more of it over the 1 (12m 13s): Years, exponential increase it 0 (12m 15s): Is that because it's, so it's less land intensive and it's cheaper and they can make better margins selling it. Is that part of it? 1 (12m 25s): Yeah. The vilification of saturated fat and red meat has a lot to do with it, you know, and then the, yeah, the industrialization of the food supply system. So we're making this basically free grains and with chickens, again, even the pasture ones, 99.9% of them are there's one breed, one breed called Cornish cross that are bred specifically to have been bred over the last several decades to get big and fat and thick on specifically corn and soy. So if you feed them anything else, they'll essentially get sick and die and they won't get to weight quickly. 0 (12m 59s): What should they 1 (13m 1s): Is a good question? I mean, the, like where did the chicken come from? It's jungle fowl. So it should be up in trees. It should be in jungles. And how long does it take to get to weight? And we can talk about this with pigs as well, wild boar, et cetera. There's a lot of differences here, but it takes, it would take probably about a year for a chicken to get to maturity, which would be about one fourth or one sixth, the size of a Cornish cross breed, which is what, again, 99%, even the pastured birds are, which get to weight in about six weeks. And so you're, again, six times larger than what you would get at a normal chicken. 1 (13m 41s): And again, it is not the farmer's fault here. So don't go say, oh, these people are misleading us. It is literally, the industry is now pegged to this industrial system where people are demanding chickens and farmers are trying to do the right thing. It's it is infinitely better for our farm to have a chicken on a, on grass. Even if they're fed corn and soy to have chicken inside raised on concrete for a variety of reasons, it's better for the soil. Get the manure out there. It's better for the animals. It's better health wise. It is better for sure. But again, at the end of the day, we're not asking the question is this growing the healthiest food is a species appropriate for the animal. Is this healthy food for humans to eat as a sustainable way to actually grow food? 1 (14m 21s): Which again, maximum irony that the vegans focus on grazing animals, which is like literally the only sustainable food. So we truly have as the problem and even in animal agriculture, they're, they're not the worst. So 0 (14m 39s): Would you say right now until things change, you should probably avoid pork and chicken altogether? 1 (14m 46s): I think the, I think the best thing to do is if you want pork and chicken to talk to local farmers and ask them to do corn free. So I started free and asked them to test their fatty acid levels because I think that will help start to get the movement of people switching to corn, free soy free blends, and starting to use more our organic slash locally milled grains. And I think that, like, for example, while the farm does a lot in, like, they use a lot of way, for example, to feed the pigs, which is W I L D O M. And they make, they're the only company that I know of a farm that they're in Maryland that does, has produced a pig with species appropriate little lake asset levels. 1 (15m 34s): And they do it by like, they basically let them forage in the forest and then supplement them. Cause you need to, to get the pigs, have to weight. If you were just to have a free, truly free ranging pig, you would likely need. So carrying capacity is if you have a plot of land, a hundred acres say you only have so many animals in that plot of land before the ecosystem will be degraded. And then you start reversing the population. But there's sort of like this equilibrium that you get and for hogs, like it's different per region, but that's probably like 30, 40, 50 acres per head. And so if you have an 80 acre farming, that's what there is. There's is where you raising three hogs a year. 1 (16m 14s): It's ridiculous. And this is what wild hogs do the same that they roam all over the place. And so you have to break if you want to raise these animals on a smaller operation, which is you need to actually grow food effectively. I mean, look outside anywhere like the fences roads, et cetera, you can't just like, we can't rely on wild animals anymore, unfortunately, but they use way from like a local dairy mill that they have all this extra stuff. So I think like using food waste intelligently to feed animals, actually a great thing, especially when it comes to chicken and pork. But yeah, I mean, I think that like by far the best thing you could do to support that as, instead of just avoiding it and voting with your dollars, ask the farmer, like, you know, got a little website, got a, I think it's farms in your home.com and it's like in beta version now. 1 (17m 4s): So there's some hiccups don't get mad, but there should be several thousand small farms there. So go there putting your address time percent free and then find your local farm and go talk to them and see what their operations like. 0 (17m 17s): Yeah. 1 (17m 17s): And ask them to do something different. 0 (17m 19s): There's a farm 45 minutes west of me that I go to and get raw milk. And they have a lot of things, but you know, there, even in Chicago, you can find places that some local farms and ask and go to the farmer's market and things like that. Why don't we touch a little bit on seed oils? I know, I see you post quite a bit about seed oils and you just talked a little bit about them during a, a presentation. You did maybe touch the issue we have with Cedar walls, as far as Lyndon like acid and how that's just pretty much an almost every food you see out there. 1 (17m 57s): Yeah. So the question is what, what is a seed oil? And that does definition is different depending on who you ask seed oil in my mind is anything that you're taking. Some that people generally do not eat humans, can't digest and you're using massive machinery and refinement to crush it into a fat I man there. So cotton seed, corn canola oil, rapeseed, grape seed, sunflower safflower, soybean, rice, brand, like these are all typical seed oils. There's some ambiguity then of like, what about olive oil? Well, it's technically it's, you know, cause they're pressing the pit. What about avocado oil? 1 (18m 38s): Technically it's a CDOT cause they're pressing the pit again. What about Palm oil? Well, that's technically a fruit oil, but there's some major environmental issues there. What about coconut oil? Well, again, it's a fruit oil, so it's a little bit different, but the main reason why these are bad as not even just the machinery or the refining process. For example, if you take a coconut and put it through this same process, because the fatso saturate it's stable and there's no issues with it. It's, it's the unstable omega six fatty acids, linoleic acid and specific. So we think about protein. There's a bunch of different amino acids that make up protein and the same thing with fat. There's a bunch of fatty acids that make up fat. 1 (19m 18s): And there's one in particular that it's totally fine if we get it in regular small amounts, small like sing low single digit under 5%, under 8%, even I would say under 5% for sure of a food of, of, of the fat and a food being linolenic acid. Totally fine. But when we eat species inappropriate amounts, just like with anything else, you can literally drink too much water. You get hyper retrieving and can die. The same thing here is when it goes out of the species appropriate bounds, you start getting a lot of wonky processes in biology. We used to eat, you know, one to 2% of this, these oils and fats now make up over 20% of our average American diet. 1 (20m 4s): And so we went from 0% of these fats and we got them naturally in things like animal fats, we'll have typically one to 2% fat. You know, like a, like tallow from a head of cattle will be like one to 2%. Even in buttercream, et cetera was like low single digits, soybean oil, 70%, 60, 70% sunflower oil, 75% GrapeSEED, rapeseed oil, same thing, very high. And then you start having this spectrum of amount of linoleic acid and all of an avocado are much lower, but they're still five to 15 times higher than what we should have. So they are about, you know, a good avocado or olive oil brand will be around 10 to 15. 1 (20m 48s): Olive oils can range dramatically and go from actually like 10% to about 40% linolenic acid. I've got oil. I mean, a study came out of UC Davis last year. We're at 88% of all the cuddle oil is actually soybean oil anyways. And so adulteration in those places, there is rampant. So Linda lake asked the problem, why is it a problem? Well, it basically breaks your mitochondria. So the powerhouse of your, of your cells, basically why your body runs the whole machinery cellular machinery. It breaks. It leads to also independent of that pathway is a massive amount of toxic metabolites. 1 (21m 30s): And so people get really upset. The, especially the vegans online and you say, Hey, this food is toxic and they go, well, do you know what a toxin actually is? That's not toxic. It's ridiculous. Like there, there are literally entire research journals. I'm not talking about just like a one study thing, like an entire amalgamation and a journal of studies on just single metabolites of downstream things of like acid. We're talking things like four hydroxy noon and all 913. How there's hundreds of these metabolites that are processed again in excess, your body can't handle the processing of these fatty acids. 1 (22m 10s): They become highly unstable and they lead to these literally literally toxic compounds in your body. So not great. 0 (22m 18s): Yeah. That's not good. And these seed oils, a lot of times you don't, obviously you don't know they're in there. Right. I think that's what makes it so toxic in the sense that, you know, you can't taste them really. I'm assuming most 99% of the restaurants are cooking in these oils. And then in high heat, that's not good either. Right. Cause oxidation and inflammation and things like that. So is that the main issue? Would you say that that the fact that people are cooking in these oils and then also like why is it somewhat of a preservative, these, these oils in the sense, because like, you'll see, like you'll buy something that you think is healthy and then like one of the ingredients is like safflower oil and you're like, why is that in there? 0 (22m 58s): Is that, is it, is it somewhat of a preservative or is it just no. Okay. 1 (23m 2s): Yeah. So I mean, the thing about the days, like you said, it's sneaky. We have a built-in mechanism actually to detect when fats go rancid, it's called her nose. So when, when fish goes bad and this sort of like rotten fish smell, you smell, everyone's smelled that before rotten seafood, you know, You go, oh shit, that is disgusting. I'm not going to eat that. You're repulsed by it. Every human, you don't have to learn that that's innate to our biology. That is actually the polyunsaturated fatty acids, oxidizing in fish. That's just Melly. It's not something unique to fish. It is just fatty acids that are in seed oils also. 1 (23m 45s): And so if you were to take a seed oil and not take it through the refining bleaching, and then D order as a deodorization process, it would smell like rotten fish. But I think as we bleach those, we take everything out and we process it in a way where we are removing the mechanism for us to smell that is rancid. So these oils can be sitting on your counter for three years or in a product or whatever, and be completely rancid, which means mans is basically the oils oxidize and extremely inflammatory at this point. So it can be sitting there completely answered. And like you will, you won't know we've taken out that defense mechanism, that alarm bell, which is insane, 0 (24m 25s): You 1 (24m 25s): Know, and that allows it to be ubiquitous everywhere because this is hidden ingredient that can be stable. And so pretty much everything else. And this is why I said before, like the processed food thing, like you can have something tastes artificially amazing indefinitely. Like there there's no, like you have no ability to relate with your biology. You have a piece of meat. Or if these are fruit, I don't care if you're totally vegan, whatever, if it is out and it's getting moldy and gross, you go, oh, this is not like I can tell with my eyes and my senses and taste and smell. This is not something I should eat. When you start processing food and get to this point, you remove those mechanisms. And we have no way to tell any more of a is bad for us innately, which is challenging. 1 (25m 9s): But yeah, it's in pretty much literally every single package food at high amounts, every single restaurant food that you have, like story I tell often is I went to a restaurant also. And it was like last year, your year before 0 (25m 23s): I think I saw hip 1 (25m 24s): Little cafe and I literally could not eat one thing without CDOs. They refuse to make anything without oils. Really? Hey man, can I get a steak? Nope. Marinading canola oil. How about you fry an egg with butter, only have oil. Why, 0 (25m 41s): Why are they marinating it in canola oil? 1 (25m 44s): It's a great question. Cause that's some sauce they want it to do. They, I mean, They, they prepare everything ahead of time, 0 (25m 51s): Right? 1 (25m 51s): And so everything is always made with is super cheap, industrialized oil, even, even the super nice fanciest restaurants you'll go to. Like, this is a really nice restaurant that I'm talking about. This isn't some like dive place, that cafe in the middle of nowhere, it was like downtown Austin, brand new hip restaurant. Couldn't eat a literal single thing on the menu. What about a salad without dressing? Now we pre there, we prejudged her salad. Every single thing I went down the entire menu, my Calling me a freak, but it's fair. It's fair criticism. 0 (26m 26s): Yeah. That's it's, it's, you know, it's sad in, in, would you say that for most individuals that the best way to take it to, I guess be proactive is to just cook for yourself? Obviously. I mean, I think if anything from the whole quarantine that we could take from is the fact that, I mean, at least my wife, my wife and I, we, we cooked for ourselves every day and night. And we're not cooking when these oils, what, what I guess on that standpoint, what should people be cooking in? 1 (27m 2s): Nah, not this stuff. 0 (27m 4s): I mean, you know, you see people cooking avocado oil, if it's, if they know the source and it's organic. I cause I've, I I've heard, you know, obviously organic law can stand higher heat or coconut oil. It's, you know, it's more stable. Are those those good options or would you just say like G or tallow? 1 (27m 21s): Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I want there to be as many options for as many people as possible. I'm again, I'm not a dogmatic person. I don't think people should only be any animal products. We don't want to do that. That's totally fine. Cook coconuts better than avocado. In my mind, you can even get like, for example, the refining processes and misleading, so you can get people to go. I don't want to eat coconut oil because it tastes like coconut and everything tastes like this tropical thing. I don't like that. Well, if you get refined coconut oil, all they basically do is like your refining process is like, they just put it under heat and steam come off and then the volatile compounds get released. So it doesn't taste like the coconut oil anymore. There's nothing bad with refining the coconut oil and it doesn't taste like coconut anymore. 1 (28m 2s): It's a neutral fat to cook with. You can do that also with Palm. It's just, if it's RSPO, Palm respond responsibly sourced Palm oil, then you have to deal with all of the ecological problems there. But yeah, I mean, again, it's a, it's a sliding sliding scale here of the amount of like acid in the food and she can just Google and you can find it again. It should be low single digit percentages. And so coconut oil I think is like one to 3% Palm oils. Hot can be higher depending on how it, how it's refined. Yeah. Well, I've got oil butters, like one to 3%. Talent's one to 3%. And that's again what you want coming from the keto days. Like I just saw a lot of people also just unnecessarily eating too much fat. 1 (28m 47s): Like I just, I don't think people probably need to eat even close to as much fat as they should be eating. And like, this is reflected. I think like truly grass fed grass finished beef or wild animals. I go hunting deer elk or anything like that. It's like these animals are so lean and there's very few animals that are extremely fatty that we've eaten over over our health span as humans and nothing like when you have that, it's very much in places where survival is completely necessary. Arctic, mammoth, walrus, et cetera. 0 (29m 24s): Right? 1 (29m 26s): Most people don't need an excessive amount of fat. I think that yes, you can eat lower carb. And it's really helpful for people to switch it against cars because they've broken their metabolism and their mitochondria again, I think due to the seed oils, not cause the carbohydrates. And so keto can be a phenomenal tool once you have a broken metabolism, but the metabolism likely was not broken to the carbohydrates. I think it's a huge misconception. 0 (29m 49s): Yeah. So you're pretty much saying that the fat, the there's, there's a rhetoric out there where people are just overdoing it when it comes to consuming fat and you know, coming from the keto world, what was it like? It's like 75, 80% fat, you know, some people will, will put in their diet and 1 (30m 7s): I think it's the added fat. So even when your people are cooking, it's like, okay, let's try a half a stick of butter in here. It's I think unnecessary. 0 (30m 14s): Right. 1 (30m 15s): Just cause they're eating fat. They need to have an excessive amount of fat. And I just, I just don't think that's the case. I think most people are generally overeating. I think they're not getting enough protein and having too much energy and not spending enough energy. 0 (30m 28s): Yeah. It's almost, you know, I had, we talked Dr. Ted Naiman and you know, he has this protein energy thesis regarding, you know, obviously prioritize protein. What would you say to the people? I know, not that I know you're not, not dogmatic, but like I even get people today bring up like how, you know, excess red meat can cause like colon cancer and things like that. And, and, and so they're bringing up studies that were done. And, and what would you say to those types of people? 1 (31m 1s): Just people who are concerned about colon cancer 0 (31m 5s): Meeting. Yeah. 1 (31m 6s): Yeah, man, that's a rabbit hole or people have done much better work than I have on your, I obviously like Paul is a good example, you know, is a good example. But from what I'm aware of these, these are massive epidemiological studies where people are just very unhealthy and they're like, oh, look, this person ate burgers. They're four. And he's an incredibly unhealthy air force that's causing this colon cancer. Like there's been no direct. There's actually been, I don't have the study on hand and I can look it up and send it to you. But there's been, there have been several studies that have pointed to more fiber leading to more colon cancer than last. And then when you removed, if I record it incidents and treatment of a lot of these gut issues, including colon cancer go down. So, 0 (31m 42s): You know, 1 (31m 43s): Yeah. I mean, I mean again, like, do we think that we had a food that we've been eating for millions of years that would give us cancer early on? Like, it's this simple things, just blow my mind that people miss when it comes to nutrition, it's like, do we think that saturated fat something again, we've been eating for millions of years gives us heart attacks early on. Do you think breast milk has high amounts of saturated fat would kill us? Just like it literally makes no sense to me. 0 (32m 10s): No, I, I, yeah, no, I, I totally, I totally agree. What about, I noticed you posted a little bit regarding getting back to Linden, like acid just a little bit. What about like Walnut and, and a lot of the nuts and the seeds that have higher amounts of linoleic acid? Is that something that you would just want to keep in mind and just not over consume? 1 (32m 32s): Yeah. I mean, this is another thing of why, well, why would nature make foods that killing if, if linolenic acid is high in these things, why would nature make those as good question? And I think the answer in my mind is these foods are extremely seasonal and extremely hard to acquire. You know, we're eating handfuls of them every single day, all year round, no matter what climate we're in. Like I live in Texas here. There's, there's a lot of pecans and they fall one month of the year and they're extremely hard to get into and eat. And so I see all these animals walking around, eating them like, oh, this is, this is clear. 1 (33m 15s): What's going on here. You're getting fat for the winter time. And we know that these things lead to these linoleic acid for a variety of reasons. It leads to obesity. And so a lot of things in nature, I think people think, I mean, you get all of the longevity freaks out there, the frail old guys who are don't ever eat me, cause it causes em, tours, bike and all this type of stuff. It's like, yeah, some of these things are good to have transiently. And our biology has, has meant to preserve these mechanisms, but we have them unchecked all the time. And so stress is good, short term, bad long-term fat gain inflammation was likely very good short term and the plants and animals work together. It's like, okay, you produce this, this thing, it's getting colder. 1 (33m 57s): I need to produce this nut that has linolenic acid in it because it's actually getting colder. And the polyunsaturated fatty acids can work in the plant metabolism better. So if you get higher and latitude, you actually get higher amount of pond, saturated, fatty acids, and the seeds because it's colder. So the plants need a more fragile fat to go around the plant metabolism, the higher and latitude, the colder, it gets, the more, the animal needs to be fat during the wintertime to survive. Right? So it's elegant little pairing historically and evolutionarily, but we have, again, like we've taken out of there. And like, I don't think I'm a complete naturalistic fallacy guy where I think that everybody should be eating like only local season or whatever. 1 (34m 37s): I think that that's kind of impossible now, but you, you can't like disrespect the value that like there, there could be a role to, to increase the inflammation in obesity, short term. And it's not even obesity, just weight gain, which is like PR it's preferred. It's a survival advantage for animals that have longer harder winters. And so don't, don't eat for winter. It's kind of like, unless you want less, you're going to again, have the energy decrease for several months and you want to gain a little fat for whatever reason. That's totally fine, but just know that you're eating a food. That's preparing animals for winter time all the time. 0 (35m 12s): That's a good way to state it because I just interviewed it. I haven't published yet. Dr. Richard Johnson wrote the book, recent book nature wants us to be fat and he, and he touches on how fruit and how, you know, these, these animals for hibernation. You know, they're eating a ton of fruit high in fructose and getting fatter for a reason because they're hibernating. And so I know it was an interesting interview, but did you visit, I noticed, did you visit the Hadza? 1 (35m 41s): Yes, sir. 0 (35m 42s): What was the one thing that you'd say you learned, did you go with Dr. Paul Saldino 1 (35m 46s): Yeah, yeah. Him and I went together to have a hell of a trip was pretty crazy. 0 (35m 51s): W what would you say w one takeaway you learned from that trip 1 (35m 57s): That all of our problems are due to your removal from our natural environment and way more than just like Paul, I think was very focused on physical health view, what the eight with jewel, which I think is important. But I think that that is only to me, one slice of what I consider health to be. I know many physically healthy people who are miserable Right. And unhappy have terrible relationships hate their life, but oh, great. I have a six pack. Cool. Like I want the whole thing. I want the whole human experience. And just to see a human in a, in a natural human experience, instead of seeing the humans that I seen a zoo all the time was amazing. 1 (36m 44s): So I think that was the biggest thing. And just like observing all of that and not to say that like, that's the only way humans can or should let live. I also think that there's a lot of extrapolation of, oh, this one population, therefore, all humans must do this. And I think that that's the beauty of nature is that we're adaptable species that have thrived in many different climates. And like, I think that we could point to a lot of indigenous cultures that have eaten an enormous amount of plant foods and enormous amount of carbs and enormous amount of fat. And they all thrive. And so I don't like it. And it was just, it was fascinating to see, I think another big one is never trust science because every single paper about the Hadza, bringing it back to like digestive health, et cetera, microbiome, like we should model. 1 (37m 33s): It has the most diverse microbiome. They eat hundreds of grams of fiber per day. It's just a lie. It's not true. And so there's now studies that cite studies that cite studies that say studies that say it studies from this original one. And Paul and I have dug back. And it was just an observational thing that they recorded. So they didn't have any photos or anything. It just wrote in the, in the paper. How does it eat hundreds of grams of fiber a day, a good dietary survey, bullshit as absolutely not true. They, they w they couldn't do it even if they wanted to. 1 (38m 14s): And so now we have this quoted by probably hundreds of thousands of people or more, oh, look, we know this big thing about the African population. They do this thing, like go there and tell me that they, they do this. Like, I I've been, I was already a skeptical person after seeing that sort of ludicrous disposition of what the truth was from what has been quoted by many, many, many studies and regurgitated from that, like, just don't trust anything, unless you see it with your own eyes, but man, it was unbelievable how inaccurate it was wearing. So the question is, what was the motive? Why that, why were we, why was that put in the study? 1 (38m 55s): Was there an agenda that somebody was trying to fit a narrative and extract? Like, I don't know what happened there, but yeah, that was shocking to me. Yeah. 0 (39m 2s): The whole fiber rhetoric, 1 (39m 5s): What what'd you get? I don't mean that to mean that fiber is even inherently toxic for people or whatever. Like you could probably find some cultures that ate a lot of fiber and whatever, but it's not true in this instance at all. Even close. 0 (39m 20s): Yeah. And one of the things I know that Dr. Paul Saladino is added into his diet is fruits and honey, w w what are your thoughts regarding that? As far as adding that into, into, into people's diets. And 1 (39m 32s): I think they're great, and I think they stay fit for your goals. Great. But again, it's like, honey, okay. At least in Texas, honey is available two times a year. Same thing as nuts, like, okay. 0 (39m 46s): Right, right. 1 (39m 46s): Is there a natural thing that we're trying to tell to tell ourselves here and Texas, again, there are there's fruit only available short period of time in the year. It's not all year. And so it was like a natural Paul style saying, I think it's impossible. I think through like, even if it's eating locally, my genetics are from mostly Western Europe. It's probably like the most appropriate diet to have, but even still it's like, majority of people are now you have a Brazilian slash like parent with a Japanese parent making this kid who now lives in Alaska. It's like, how is this person supposed to eat? Like the genetics have been so crossed over so long where I think it's hard to say, like, eat for your genetics, eat for your region. 1 (40m 31s): I like Costa Rica where Paul lives now it's, there's fruit grows a year out. And so I think it's a more appropriate thing. And I think that there's been some weird bastardization of fruit and genetic selection over time. But I think that if you're gonna eat plant food, it's in carbohydrates is probably the best source root vegetables. I like. I do well with Paul. Doesn't do well with. And so I think it's just, again, if you have some sort of a framework of, I think at least eat real, eat food that spoil a seed stuff that goes bad. Right? If you think about what it means to go bad and spoil it's bacteria wants to eat that and decompose it and return it back into the soil, which I told before, it was so important. 1 (41m 14s): And if even bacteria, it doesn't want to eat the food. There's probably an issue there. Like humans shouldn't be in the food. And so if you leave out some sort of bar or whatever, and it looks no different in five years from now than it does today probably should not be touching that thing. And again, like there's obvious exceptions to this that need people to jump down my throat on this. But as a general rhetoric and framework to think about that, it's like, okay, let's think about local seasonal foods where I am. It's probably gonna be the highest nutrient density that you can get. Now let's start testing it out. Like what's important to you is your history that you have eaten a lot of seed oils and carbohydrates and have gotten metabolically broken well, okay. It might make sense to not do a lot of fruit. 1 (41m 55s): Are you just like a genetic freak, like Paul and can eat whatever you want, even if whatever, without having any sort of physical differences and okay, then eat whatever fits that, but ultimately figuring out what your goals are, what your healthiest history is, what you want to, where you want to go, and then doing the personal work, instead of like trying to find some sort of pariah online who's spouting nutritional advice, I think is really the bang for your buck is just like, do your own work, which is the least appetizing for people, I think. But 0 (42m 25s): Right. People, people want to be told exactly what they should do. Like, oh, how should I eat this and that? And, you know, yeah. There's some mainline rules, you know, good baseline rules. Like we've talked about already that everyone should follow, you know, obviously staying away from processed foods and seed oils and things like that. That just go without being said or for some people. But what, I guess, what, what have you, you know, obviously what have you learned about yourself through spirit, self experimentation? How, what is your, I like to talk about routine. So what is your typical routine? Maybe eating and do you do some fasting and things like that? 1 (43m 2s): Hello, last year for a second. 0 (43m 3s): Oh, okay. Now my question was, what's your routine like now, just while you've learned through the years for feasting and even for fasting and on a daily basis. 1 (43m 15s): Yeah. I mean, my is interesting. I've gone through a lot of mold issues lately. So how sad an Austin was? Didn't know I had a leak found out, we call it mold. So I've been doing this extreme mold. Detox symptoms were crazy, by the way, I think this is a, is an enormous problem that people are talking about. Again, I think it's an unnatural environment thing. We live in these hermetically sealed boxes made of weird chemical based stuff, and then have water running through them and know like, it was really bizarre. Of course, problems are gonna come from that. And so my diet has varied a lot over the last couple of years, just to figure out what works best for this mold detox thing. So I'm sort of like myself starting from square one a lot. 1 (43m 56s): And I think I've gotten lower fat feeling way better, eat more fat. Your body's just recycling a lot of stuff. And a lot of the toxins, actually, the microtoxins and stuff can stay in your fat. And so eating less fat. And I think here's a time where eating more plant foods make sense because eating more plant foods, your body wants to get excreta. You have all this fiber, you want to get stuff out of your body. And if I want to get some out of my body, it actually makes sense to eat more plant foods. So I've been doing that a little bit more, but yeah, I'm still tinkering right now and figuring out I'm not, I'm not saying like 70% better from the mold stuff, but still figuring it out. But 0 (44m 30s): How did you know you had it, 1 (44m 32s): Man? It's been a, it's a journey. I mean, I think that for a while I thought it had, I was like, what is going on? Like the symptoms creep up over a really long period of time. So it was like fatigue, joint pain, depression, brain fog. It's like, I would need to like sleep at 10:00 AM to take a nap. I was like, no, what the hell is going on? And like, you don't notice because it's not like one day like this and one day you're not, it's it creeps up a really long period of time. And then it's like, got a sense of like, man, I can't focus. I can't articulate clearly. Like if I were to be on a podcast, no way I would stammer, I wouldn't be able to focus. 1 (45m 12s): And it's like, I need to get some stuff checked out. I done quarterly labs for awhile and it's got some numbers turning around direction, but just didn't add up that I had allergies here. I thought it was hormone stuff. So I'd leave Texas and I'd feel better. And then I'd come back and feel like shit. And so a lot of times like the allergies, especially in central Texas are, are brutal. So it's like, oh man, this is finally getting me like everybody else. And so I left and came back and stayed at an Airbnb just AB tests, like, is this valid? And I felt fine. 0 (45m 49s): So something in your place. So yeah. I'm assuming you moved right away. 1 (45m 53s): Yeah. We got to tell out of here and then remediate it. And it's fun places fine now, but it's, there's essentially four things to worry about. And I'm gonna be doing some, some talking about this and publishing some more information, but you essentially look at the source of mold and where it is in verifying that you have it in your house and then where it is and what types you have in your body and then how to get rid of it effectively in your house and your items and how to get rid of it effectively, your body. There's these four main things that you need to worry about. But there are people that do each one of them and no one communicates to anyone else. And 95% or 99% of people that do each one are completely misinformed. 1 (46m 36s): And don't what the hell they're doing. And so it's very challenging to get through this whole process. Yeah. Knowing what I know going through it, it has been a nightmare. I've worked with dozens of people and have had to do my own research, still, not a lot of answers and just a lot of trial and error. So I think it's like, it's a very new thing that people are getting on board with. And I mean, I talked to Dave Asprey about this. He's been talking about this stuff for a long time and it's just, it's one of these things where I, I remember when I first saw him talking about it and I thought he was over-blowing. It was like, oh, this can't be that bad, whatever. Yeah. Old thing. And then I experienced it and it, this is the worst I felt in my entire life physically. 1 (47m 20s): And there's still such confusion of how to get out of it and get better. So I have extreme amount of compassion and empathy. People who have chronic disease and they're firmly down on the stair and American diet rabbit hole. And they go to their doctor, a doctor tells him, oh yeah, just take this medication. I don't know. And they have like, they're not plugged into circles like you or I are. Whereas like, for us, it's common sense like, oh, your environment and your diet and these things, lifestyle things. But man, it's, it has, it's so defeating. And just like the depression leads to more stress, which leads to more sickness. It's like this negative 0 (47m 60s): Loose ball. 1 (48m 1s): It is brutal, man. And 0 (48m 3s): Well, I'm glad you're feeling at least, you know, like you said, you're, you're back to about 70, 75, 70, 1 (48m 8s): The 70%. There's a, there's some good days. There's some bad days. But overall, I mean, I stayed in a place in Santa Barbara couple of weeks ago and stay there for three or four days. And like I knew every day I was like, we're going the next day. This place has mold, had a headache. Next day it was like brain fog and low energy. Third day was depression. I was like, oh, this is like, this is how I felt every day for two years. 0 (48m 30s): Wow. 1 (48m 31s): So again, it's sucks and I don't wish this on anybody. And you just don't know. I mean, most like if something like estimated that 80 plus percent percent of poems in the United States have water damage and have likely some mold exposure. And so the question is how, how much can your body excrete? It was your other lifestyle habits like kid does your cup just, oh, start overflowing basically. And then you start getting sensitized to everything in your environment, because you can have people where it's two people in the same house living together. 0 (49m 0s): And one is 1 (49m 1s): One gets sick and looks crazy can to the other person and for better or for worse, but life Beyonce. She also had some DMS. And so we were in this together and it was something where we are able to understand each other, but I could see why if someone's like, no, this environment is making me sick. And that person feels fine. How that would be a really tough thing to navigate. 0 (49m 22s): Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm just curious was one of the ways to sort of remedy this or help, it would be like some type of sauna, like an infrared or something and sweat and help you sweat a lot of the toxins out. 1 (49m 37s): Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a variety of things you can do to be supportive. That's been certainly one of the things that I've done a 0 (49m 42s): Lot, you know, 1 (49m 44s): During Nivea certain binders, but this stuff is, you know, you can go too fast. So if you start liberating, a lot of these micro-toxins and getting them out of trying to get them out of your body, but they're just circulate in the around. They can make you sicker because they're, they store in your fat and your tissues. And so it's this long thing of like, you want to trickle them out over time and not have them all come out. Cause otherwise it'll just destroy you. And so it's a very individual approach. My fiance had had very different. We've had the same mold exposure, same mold in our body, same mold remediation of the house, but are getting the most out of our body part that four step has been wildly different. We basically respond to these opposite things at different rates too. 1 (50m 26s): So this again is why so complex and really challenging. 0 (50m 29s): Well, we could probably do a podcast on that alone. 1 (50m 32s): Oh man, there's a whole operation about this stuff. I mean, it's a really in-depth and there's a lot to learn and yeah, I feel really bad for anybody. Who's who's in the midst of this process. It's not fun at all, but there is hope, you know, I've had a lot of people who I've met in this journey of, I mean, I tried to find for a long time, what happens is you get sensitized to local allergens and if you get sensitive to mold and Austin's common that you also then get high out allergies. So there's been a lot of people that I've known who said, yeah, I got mold and I had to basically move away from Austin. So I was on this mission for a while just to find anybody who has had mold exposure here who stayed here. 1 (51m 13s): And then I find a couple of people to give me hope so I can get through it here. Anybody can get through it. So, 0 (51m 20s): So it's okay. So it's a lot, a lot of to do with Boston. Not necessarily just the place that you lived in, the house that you lived in. 1 (51m 27s): Was there, there are regions that are higher in mold exposure than other places here. It's just so common because it's really humid and it's also really hot and there's a lot of natural particulate. And so when you have the H HVAC system running all winter long or sorry, I'll summer long, all humidity come in and all the particular command and then flush around and all these weird cavities in your house and then get any water exposure on top of that. You just start getting mold growth 0 (51m 53s): And you can test for it in your house, right? 1 (51m 56s): Yeah. Testing. I mean, I have a podcast release about this, 0 (51m 59s): But be wary 1 (52m 0s): Of almost every single testing company is coming in with the little thing and test it. It doesn't work in, I mean, this again is the challenge. Unless you open up every cavity in your house, how are you going to know? You can do these things called Rumi tests that are basically like you swipe a Swiffer pad on the ground, get dust particles, and then send that in. And they say, Hey, you have these certain, microtoxins the problem with that is that I did that after we remediate her house and super high, like, oh shit, we're have to move out of this place or sell it or something. And then I went outside. I'm like, let me see here again. I'm a very like experimental type of person wipe the ground. We have a outdoor gym at the ground in there. 1 (52m 42s): It looked the exact same. Now it's not, it's not the problem in my house. Like, this is just the 0 (52m 48s): Environmental 1 (52m 49s): And there's, there's things like this where I present this logic to remediators or doctors and like, Hey, what do you think about this? And their brains explode. Like they don't know how to conceptualize that their tests, that they were lying until everybody, they have a mold problem 0 (53m 6s): Outside. 1 (53m 7s): Yeah. Like, why didn't you test it? Why aren't you getting a baseline for outside? 0 (53m 10s): Right. 1 (53m 11s): And this is the type of maddening stuff that happens when you go through this process. There's like 5,000 examples of things like that, that have happened where I just ask the person, like, did you actually think through this, this logically and reasonably, but yeah, it's challenging. So like going through that while also being sick and not being able to think, well, 0 (53m 31s): Yeah, 1 (53m 32s): Yeah. It's tough. 0 (53m 34s): Well, we could definitely keep going for another hour, but we'll, we'll cut it from there. I, I I'm, I'm glad to have you on, I, I guess maybe if you, if, if you want to give the listener, maybe one tip on we've had a ton of different tips, but I like to ask the, my guests one tip to help, you know, let's say someone's in their 40, 50 sixties and they want to maybe get their body back to what it once was to when they were in their twenties and thirties. What one tip would you give that individual? 1 (54m 2s): Who Can I cheat and give it to you? 0 (54m 8s): All right. I'll let you give it. 1 (54m 9s): Okay. So first one was just going to support your local farmer and eat like, know where your food comes from and do that. But second is, like I said before, just don't buy what anybody's selling over overall of like, don't listen to the influencers online. This is your own path. Look down to where your feet are, where you came from, where you want to go and chart your own path and like learn from what's possible, these people, but you're in control and likely what anyone else did is not going to work for you. Just take ownership and do your own thing. 0 (54m 43s): Love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on Dr. Anthony and w where's the best place for people to find out what you're up to next. I know you got a lot of things going on. 1 (54m 55s): Yeah. I just Google my name, Anthony gusta and whatever you want to follow on Twitter and Instagram newsletter podcasts. It all come up. So whatever works best for you. Send me a question you've got, and I appreciate you having me on him. 0 (55m 9s): Yeah. Thanks so much and have a great rest of your day. Thanks for listening to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Dr. Anthony Gustin

This week I interviewed Dr. Anthony Gustin! He is the Founder of Zero Acre Farms, Perfect Keto & Equip Foods, host of The Natural State Podcast, and author of the best-selling book, Keto Answers. We discussed how seed oils are causing obesity, inflammation and chronic disease, along with: - The issue with chicken and pork - Importance of Regenerative Agriculture - What is the deal with Fiber - What we can learn from the Hadza Tribes and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was!

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