Brian (0s):
Coming up on the GET, LEAN, Eat, Clean Podcast.
Annika (4s):
If you wanna sleep, do not drink alcohol at night. Because alcohol has been shown in studies over and over and over again that it messes with your sleep. Yes, it is. A bit of, it's a sedative, right? So, and especially women often say that, oh, if I have a glass of like red wine at night, yeah it really helps me fall asleep. Yes it does. Specifically for women, it does help you fall asleep slightly faster. But, it messes with your deep sleep and it messes with your REM sleep.
Brian (37s):
Hello and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Gryn and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week, I interviewed sleep and health coach Annika Carroll. Annika helps busy professionals get quality sleep again so they can ditch exhaustion and fully show up for themselves, their families and their jobs. we discuss the importance of controlling light in your house, how to shift your circadian rhythm, the best way to sleep through the night, how nutrition and alcohol can affect your sleep, and much, much more.
Brian (1m 20s):
Really enjoyed my interview with Annika. I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening. And Enjoy the show All, right Welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn and I have Annika Kilon. Welcome to the show.
Annika (1m 34s):
Thank you so much Brian for having me. Excited to be here.
Brian (1m 36s):
Thanks so much for coming on. Sleep Expert. What made you get into all things sleep?
Annika (1m 44s):
Well, I used to be, when I thought a rockstar sleeper in my like twenties and early thirties, you know, like hit the pillow, be out, be up before the alarm, go to work, go to the gym, do the same thing like five days a week kind of thing until I couldn't sleep anymore, which for me was after I had my child, which yeah, we have the whole feeding at night and our circadian rhythm gets a little messed up, but my sleep just didn't come back and I went, I went into burnout twice and I could never sleep and I didn't understand it because if your body's like craving rest and you're exhausted and you're still waking up every night between one and four and cannot go back to sleep and you're having panic attacks during the day because your mental health is going down the drain because you're not sleeping.
Annika (2m 32s):
It was scary and I couldn't figure it out because basically I've been told I had tired mom syndrome by the doctors or like there was something else going on and I should see a psychiatrist, which I did and it didn't really help. So I kind of started figuring that whole journey out of what was going on in my body, And, what are so many factors that affected my sleep. And then I was like, this is just something that so many people struggle with. If you actually start talking to people, like you never really know, right? But once you actually start talking to people, they're like, oh yeah, my sleep's so good. I'm just so tired. Like it just sucks and it's just horrible. I wish I could, but I can and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And then I kind of ended down that rabbit hole and, and that's where I am today.
Annika (3m 15s):
Helping people with their sleep.
Brian (3m 17s):
Well, let me tell you, that is a need that is, I don't know, I should say maybe it's an underserved market because I feel like individuals will come to me, mainly males and they'll be like, oh, they'll start asking me questions and, and, and the first like about weight, you know, about which I should say they're asking me food and fitness questions and the first question I ask them is, how is their sleep? Because, and a lot of times that's the issue. And so it's like, as much as I love helping with fitness and food and, and even like things like stress, but like I think if you're not sleeping right, that's, that's the first thing you gotta tackle.
Annika (3m 58s):
Yes, I agree. And, you know, if we're talking weight loss for instance, right? If somebody has extra weight they wanna get rid of, if you're not sleeping, it's gonna be so hard. Yeah. To lose that weight in a, and I would say definitely in a sustainable way. Yeah. Can we crash diet our way down five, 10 pounds? Maybe if you're not sleeping, that's gonna come right back because your body's just gonna need like as we can make it scientific, but it's that simple that your body just needs more calories and your system is messed up and it's gonna ask for more quick energy and you're just, you're just not doing yourself a favor if you don't. And that's for like, for a lot of my clients, they're like, yeah, that's easy to say 'cause I literally can't sleep.
Annika (4m 41s):
Like if you haven't slept for decades, like years or decades on end and they're like, oh I wish like, but it's, yeah, you definitely, if you wanna get your health in check, I think sleep's the first step you need to look at.
Brian (4m 55s):
And a common question is, and we talked about this a little bit before we got on, was, you know, in the parents that, you know, let's say they have a family, they have kids, they're used, they get used to getting up in the middle of the night with their kid, the younger kids, and now their kids are older and they're still getting up in the middle of the night and this is just like, it's just become a thing, right? Like a part of their life and they wanna get back to where they actually can sleep through the night. What, what, what is, what are types of steps people can do to sort of help them in that process?
Annika (5m 29s):
Yeah, I think there's, there's multiple. One is really from a mindset and I see this, we were talking about that, I see this with women also a lot. That they're like, we're all kind of still on high alert a bit at night. It's like, oh did the kids stir? Oh they coughed over there. Are they getting sick? Isn't it time to get up and change whatever diapers or feeding? No, we, we've kind of progressed through that and I think really taking a moment here and there to reflect on that is really important. 'cause we need to relearn, our bodies need to relearn a different cycle. It's it's, we call it a circadian rhythm, right? We all have asleep wake cycle. We should be awake when the sun's up and we should be asleep when it's darker.
Annika (6m 10s):
And because we have kind of interrupted that, we have given ourself a new rhythm that our body operates on. So really becoming aware that oh yeah, you know what? They're making this up 7, 8, 9, 10 years old now they're okay if they have a problem, most of them are gonna come and tell us in the middle of the night So. we actually can get to that point where we can sleep again. The other thing is really try and retrain your circadian rhythm. Try and really make sure your body releases cortisol and melatonin so your awake hormone and your sleeping hormone at the right times of the day. And we can really support the body to do that by making sure we play with light and darkness because that is the only signal.
Annika (6m 55s):
Basically these two hormones react to So. we wanna make sure we get a lot of natural light during the day, specifically in the mornings. I always, this is the first thing I have my clients do when you wake up, ideally within a half an hour, if you can't before 9:00 AM go outside, sit on your porch, look at the sky, get that natural light. We have so much screen light and indoor light. We live indoors. Most of us live indoors in cubicles with sunglasses while we're driving. Like we never get exposed to natural light. So get that light and at night try and dim your lights in the home.
Annika (7m 35s):
you know, so many people now live in buildings where we have overhead lights in the ceilings which are white like we renovated. And I've tried to get them in like a hue, you know, they don't even exist unless you get some special manufacturer. If the light shines down on you, it's your brain thinking it's noon because the sun is at that point at noon at the angle with which you're, those lights hit you like it's straight down. Your body's not gonna release melatonin or not insufficient amounts that help you over that hump when you're kind of waking up because you're thinking, oh the kid might start.
Annika (8m 15s):
And even if you wake up and you have enough melatonin, you might be able to just turn around and think and say, oh you know what? Right, we're safe, we're good. Let's tuck us in and let's go back to sleep. And even so really playing with this light and dark, avoiding the bright lights at night, dimm them in the house if you have site table lamps, you know, sometimes our parents used to have them and we were kind of, maybe not my style, but the idea of having the light shine on a book that you're reading or paper or whatever that comes from below your eye level and isn't higher up is a really good idea. Under counter lighting in the kitchen cabinets, like that stuff, not the above stuff.
Annika (8m 56s):
Really trying to dim lights when it's darker out.
Brian (8m 59s):
Yeah. you know, control what you can control, right? Yes, absolutely. And that's like it's, it sounds simple but people just don't do it. I started wearing like, these are day glasses and I like 'em. I can tell a difference when I wear the blue light blocking glasses during the day and at night. Less eye fatigue during the day and at night if I do have to look at a screen past eight, i I, I wear 'em. I don't care if people make fun of me. So I think that's a great place to start. The, you know, it's some type of blue light blocking glasses and the, you don't have to buy these like really expensive ones. No, there's, yeah, there's plenty out there. And then, so let's say someone has tried this and they can fall asleep but they, but they're used to getting up.
Brian (9m 46s):
Like I just, he's a friend of mine, he's 37. He was just telling me about this, how he, he's just every day, every morning, four o'clock 'cause he is used to getting up with his kids when they were a little bit younger. So let's say you control the lights but you're still getting up at four. What else would you say after that?
Annika (10m 5s):
Well I would, I would ask him a few questions. A the the first question I'm gonna ask, when is he going to bed? How long does it take him to fall asleep? Yeah, right. It's like because everybody, we always hear this, you need eight hours of sleep. No, not necessarily. Everybody's very different and we need to figure out every person's individual sleeping if the light thing doesn't work for him, the other things we can start working with to shift a circadian rhythm is when do we eat, when do we move? So when do we exercise But? it really depends on where he's at with his bedtime and, and so what we can do if we, if we eat a little later into the day, like we always have this three hours before bedtime is what you eat.
Brian (10m 53s):
That's funny. I just posted, I just posted a video saying that wait three hours before you go to sleep before you eat. But I'm curious go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Yeah,
Annika (11m 3s):
So is that not, that's not necessarily wrong And what we're meaning is big meals, right? Like don't go to restaurant at eight 30, have your dinner by nine and be in bed by 10 30. You're likely I'm gonna have horrible sleep.
Brian (11m 19s):
Yeah.
Annika (11m 20s):
But you can shift if you shift your eating times a little later and you can likely, you'll likely go to bed maybe half an hour later ish and then you might be able to get over the four o'clock hump in the morning that 4:00 AM. Right. The other thing, normally we're not supposed to exercise too close before bedtime. We're talking higher intensity because we need our body temperature to drop to be able to fall asleep. And if we do high intensity work, a, we raise our cortisol, which doesn't help with melatonin but our body temperature is too high for too long and that gives us a hard time falling asleep. So if you wanna exercise a little later, you could do that, that will have the consequence that you go to bed a little later.
Annika (12m 4s):
But if he can afford that, so to say from his wake up time is normally six or six 30 whatever and these two and a half hours would give him way more benefit versus going to that half an hour later or even an hour that might 'cause that would already get him an hour and a half and once in total net sleep time.
Brian (12m 23s):
Yeah. Right. So you're
Annika (12m 24s):
Saying if we then have that rhythm reestablished that the body knows this four o'clock thing isn't a thing anymore, we can potentially start shifting the circadian rhythm back slightly.
Brian (12m 37s):
So you're saying maybe if he, let's say he goes to bed at 10 every night and he is getting up at four, you're saying perhaps if he pushes his routine slightly back to 10 30 bedtime it might give him an extra hour and a half of sleep just to, 'cause it sort of puts him over the hump of that four o'clock time.
Annika (12m 57s):
Yes, because we're building more sleep pressure when what we call sleep pressure, like being tired when he goes to bed. So that might carry him through that. The other question, so those are just things to kind of play with your circadian rhythm, right? The other question, and he might be fit and healthy And, you know what's with his blood sugar?
Brian (13m 19s):
Okay,
Annika (13m 20s):
It's just a question because I see a lot of people, even if we're healthy, even if we're exercising well we think we're eating well, are we eating enough at the right times at the right composition of meals And that's your thing, right? So maybe look at that with him a little. Because often, and I see this in women specifically because they kind of undereat because they wanna lose weight. But I see it in men in the opposite as they sometimes over exercise compared to their nutritional intakes. And then what can happen is that your blood sugar just drops too low because eventually your body is done using that energy. Or if we are somebody who fasts significantly is something that men also in the health space more often like or wanna be healthier like to do.
Annika (14m 9s):
Which that's fine if your body can metabolically do it, you can do it. But if you shift your dinner too early, and this is just from a sleep perspective now I'm talking right? Yeah. That could have the effect that you drop your blood sugar in the middle of the night too low and if that happens your body releases cortisol because it breaks down muscle tissue to generate energy plus cortisols a stress hormone, it will kick in, it will be like he or she's dying, we're gonna wake them up and then it takes an hour and a half to metabolize that, to break that down and to be able to fall asleep again.
Annika (14m 50s):
And I see that in women often slightly earlier it's more the three Amish wake up. But for men it does sometimes happen at four more often. And I would look into that with them, I would look into what's he eating, when's eating when and how is he exercising, is there fasting involved? And maybe sometimes even play around with that a little. And that's a bit of a trial and error to be honest. Unless you're somebody on a continuous glucose monitor and you see the dips if you're not play around with that.
Brian (15m 18s):
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean like you said, some people are actually undereating, which is causing stress, right? Yeah. And some people are over fasting and which obviously like you said, same type of reaction. These are all stressors on the body. That's why I always say like, you know, you can use fasting as a tool and I used to be a little bit more into that camp. I've gotten away from that because I think you can overdo it and I and you see that, you see people do that a lot.
Annika (15m 47s):
Yes. And I think especially when it comes to people who exercise, right? You have to really know your body and be in tune with that to see and then we're fasted and then we're exercising fast it like what kind of exercise is actually helpful and we're not just looking at muscle gain and or weight loss or body composition, right? We're looking at holistically at the picture. You might be looking really fit, but if your sleep sucks like that, right? Do that for a year or two, you're gonna not get the benefit that you were intending to and you had the first maybe year or two like your body's slowly gonna start breaking down and you're not keeping that muscle because you're just riding on cortisol and potentially even adrenaline later, which would be even worse.
Annika (16m 31s):
And that's breaking down that tissue, right? And you wanna recover from those workouts, you wanna build that muscle, you're gonna change that body composition. So you wanna have that sleep to be able to do all that.
Brian (16m 42s):
Yeah and I know with FDN, which I know you've gone through Annika, we both have it, there's that stress hormone panel right? Where it's, I believe it's saliva test and it shows you your diurnal rhythm of your cortisol and how it should ri rise early in the morning and then slowly taper off as the nyco on. Is this something you have clients do to see if you know, if they, if they have the correct sort of, you know, diurnal rhythm with cortisol?
Annika (17m 10s):
I do. I don't do that test specifically. I run a Dutch pen, like a dry urine test for comprehensive hormones on all my clients, which is in that case I do the urine test. I want them to see the curve, the diurnal pattern because sometimes we can also go off symptoms. But I find it's always having that visual and having clients see where your cortisol is at is like are we depleted or are we running really high and we about to be depleted is one reason. The other reason is that I see sex hormone metabolites. So I see how your estrogens, testosterones, progesterones are being used in the body and are being excreted in the body and that can be a sign for sleep issues too.
Annika (17m 55s):
And so I run, I look at both of those on that test.
Brian (17m 58s):
What do you know typically see, do you typically see, like, I know it's probably different for everybody, but what, what sort of markers, And, you know you mentioned progesterone, estrogen and testosterone. What do you typically seeing with clients and and how can they sort of remedy it
Annika (18m 13s):
Well with, I would say yeah and I don't even think it's different with men and women actually just thinking about the data, most times I see very depleted bodies from a cortisol perspective. So their cortisol overall while their their, their rhythm might still be okay, so they're actually mounting a cortisol response in the morning and it drops the amount that the body can push out is not very high for a lot of them. And at that point the body might have already adjusted other hormones down because we're just not able to hold our baseline anymore. The body's smart enough to downregulate everything, then it starts downregulating sex hormones, which also affects your sleep.
Annika (18m 56s):
It affects like we're talking men and testosterone like it's not just libido, it's muscle, it's memory, it's just, it's sleep. I, that's I think the most common that I see that people are really overall depleted and I'm not even like looking at the, at the clients that's often not, not necessarily over exercising, right? Like everything kind of plays into that. Your diet plays into that. Yes your exercise plays into that but your lifestyle plays into that and if you haven't slept even for six months, 12 months, like that's gonna show, your body's gonna have to get that energy from somewhere. And eventually it just comes to a point where you know, oh yeah if I have my coffee in the morning and maybe I'll have one more around like two in the afternoon, I'm fine, I'm gonna get through or like a red bull or what might you have right?
Annika (19m 47s):
And that's just, it shows in the data eventually.
Brian (19m 51s):
Yeah like this almost like the like adrenal fatigue just being running on like stimulants, lot people running
Annika (20m 0s):
On stimulants. And I think what we also do and I was, I have to hold my like I was almost flatlined on my one. Like I had in my burnout I had nothing left and I basically couldn't get off the couch.
Brian (20m 11s):
Meaning your cortisol was flatlined,
Annika (20m 13s):
My cortisol was gone and everything else was almost gone 'cause it's just the body did that right But it was you start riding on adrenaline, the body's like that's the body's first response. It's like oh we see a bear, we should run like let's pump out adrenaline So, we mobilize and then it should switch to cortisol because that's a little less aggressive on the body. If there is none left, you are riding your body on adrenaline, which is not healthy. And it's really, if we're talking about fitness and health, like it doesn't help you build muscle. It eats, it chews away everything you have.
Brian (20m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. I had another client ask me, this was an older gentleman, you know he was, he was getting up at three and four and that and he's like, should I start fasting? I'm like, well probably not. you know, 'cause he's like, what do you think about intermittent fasting? And he's like, but I'm getting up at three in the morning every, he's like, do you think I should just, I'm like no. I'm like got got, got it. Start with principle number one and focus on quality sleep and then you know, perhaps down the line you can do other things. But what would you say as far as like do work with individuals as far as like what they should eat? I'm just curious, is this something a topic you, you get into? Because I know like if you're, if you, let's say you work late and you and you wanna have something to eat and you only and then you're gonna go to bed an hour later.
Brian (21m 35s):
Do you recommend like things that are easier to digest, maybe low fat items, you know, things that the body can break down you know, in sort of an easier manner as opposed to a heavy meal?
Annika (21m 47s):
Yes, absolutely. And I'm like I'm an FDN So. we are not super, I'm nutritionist too so I do look at people's diets also. And yes, if you were the three to four wake up and we talked about the blood sugar don't fast, the one thing I would play with potentially is a snack before bed a a snack. We're
Brian (22m 6s):
Talking before a snack before bed.
Annika (22m 8s):
Yeah. Like an hour-ish. 30 minutes to an hour before. And I would always try to make it whole. So I would always try to have carbs in there 'cause we need that blood sugar's dropping So, we need a bit of carb, which doesn't mean a muffin but we need some carbs, we want some protein and if it has a little bit of fat in there, yes that will help with satiety. So we want that too, but not a heavy meal. So maybe something like a lot of people do. Well just with like a glec, I'm always gluten-free because I hear people's guts So we have while they're with me at least they have glec, so like a gluten-free cracker with hummus or if you can do dairy like a little bit of great yogurt even with some berries or something and they're like, and I'm talking like a half a cup to a cup, I'm not talking a bowl.
Annika (22m 59s):
Right? Sure. So smaller things and really or a little piece of chicken with some olives or hummus or what you have there. And that's something we kind of sometimes need to play around with a little because I find them, depending on how metabolically healthy the person is, if they're more metabolically healthy and that's the that but that blood sugar is still a problem. They can do better with more protein heavy if they're actually not very metabolically healthy. Sometimes we do better with more carbs and that's something that we really play around with and I often hear people in the functional world say like no bad times that like this is the worst.
Annika (23m 42s):
You are metabolically unhealthy. Yes, but we are there right now and we want you to sleep. So that, is that a bandaid? Of course it's a bandaid. Is that something I wanna rip off eventually? Of course we're gonna rip that off. But if we wanna get you to sleep, we have to look at all the puzzle pieces in your life that affect your inability to sleep and we're gonna start working on them and get you in a better position so that eventually your body's healthy enough to do that by himself. By itself.
Brian (24m 14s):
Now on the opposite spectrum, not really opposite, but we talk about getting up in the middle of the night not being able to go bed. What about people who have a tough time falling asleep?
Annika (24m 22s):
Yeah, that's a question of what is happening. So if I am somebody goes to bed, the first thing I want to share, maybe a bit break a myth because people start stressing about this a lot and that causes, if it takes you 10 to 30 minutes to fall asleep, that is normal. If you hit the pillow like I used to and you're out, that's actually a sign of that you don't have enough sleep. So if it takes you up to 30 minutes, don't stress because as soon as we start stressing we release cortisol and that's gonna make it even harder to fix.
Brian (24m 55s):
Yeah I would, some things have come to my head like how about not watching a like scary movie or like something that's gonna just like, like stress you Yeah, stress you some type of thriller movie. Like I don't typically like to watch anything before bed. Like I, I actually just bought a, a buddy of mine who, whose name's name Colin Stucker, he has a company called Wild Foods but they make a, you talked about lights with, as for bedtime, I always would have a, a book reading lamp light that attached onto the book But. it was a normal hue of of light. And I'm like, well then I would wear my glasses.
Brian (25m 36s):
I'm like, well what if there was just a light that was a yellow light that wasn't like that really bright light and So they have a one that attaches onto my book and I don't need to wear the glasses and I can just, and I've been using that over the last few weeks and I, I really like that. So I like to read something before bed. I I usually don't last very long. And, and then also too like body temperature. Yeah. So important, right? I I tried it didn't really work 'cause it didn't fit with the bed correctly. But I think it's a, a nice invention is that sort of like that eight sleep where it cools the mattress now, you know, nowadays I think you can find a mattress that's semi cooling and and hopefully keeps your body temperature at a, at a, you know, I think what's, is there like a certain degree that you would recommend people keep their rooms or,
Annika (26m 24s):
Yeah, but they, we, they all like, they always say like 62 to 67 so like it is colder than a lot of people think. If you can control your thermostat in your bedroom separately, that's ideal. Not everybody can do that. Right. Yeah, I think what's really important when you were just talking about that temperature and the the the cooling, the chili pads and whatnots in the world. Yeah they work for a lot of people. They're not free. Yeah
Brian (26m 53s):
They're not
Annika (26m 53s):
Cheap. They're really expensive.
Brian (26m 55s):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Annika (26m 56s):
I think what the first thing I would do is I would, I would see can I get my room temperature down? The second thing is can we quickly assess what we sleep in? Do we sleep in polyester sheets and do we sleep in polyester duvet covers? Do we sleep in plastic basically that cannot breathe because a lot of people do because that's when you just go even to a nicer bedding store and you buy stuff. If you do not read the label, it's like on foods it's likely not you're, you're sleeping in cotton or will duvet cover like something that can deal with the heat and the moisture in a healthy way then that you can actually breathe under that often just trap so much heat that if you sort that out, a lot of people do a lot better already.
Brian (27m 46s):
I agree. Always start with the cheaper option. Yes. I will say the eight sleep, we ended up returning it and they were, they were, they were great and everything and we, I tried it, you know, you gave like a month to try it. So, we gave it a go, it didn't really fit 'cause it's literally like a tube of water that's running from a sort of a dock into onto like this urinal, like this top mattress that comes with it. So it's like, and we used it for a few nights and it definitely cooled down like one night I was actually too cold. I was like trying to figure out what the right temperature was but you know, very expensive and, and probably not necessary for most people I'd say like you said, I think start with the basics, getting the room temperature down. We ke we try to keep ours around 65, 66 degrees and it comes down.
Brian (28m 29s):
Yeah. So and then what you're sleeping in as well or on Yes,
Annika (28m 33s):
Absolutely.
Brian (28m 34s):
So what do we recommend for people to sleep on?
Annika (28m 38s):
I would do in terms of mattresses, like I think that really depends on personal, personal preference. If you have something you're like, oh my god I have a memory film mattress now what am I gonna do? Because that is very not very natural. Yeah you can always look into toppers, right? You can put a topper on there that is like a wool of some kind that you just put on and it actually helps if you're a warm sleeper to cool and just dissipate the heat away. I, I'm personally a huge fan of anything organic, cotton of wool, those kinds of, some people like silk. If it's actual, yeah great if you can get that bamboo, it really depends 'cause it is cooling and I use a, there's a sleepwear company that I use their stuff from and they have men and women stuff but it's, it's made from bamboo But, it's certified otec like all the way 'cause bamboo was off and it, it helps with, with temperature control.
Annika (29m 37s):
The sleepwear,
Brian (29m 38s):
They make mattresses too. They
Annika (29m 39s):
Don't make mattresses, they only make sleepwear. But bamboo is a thing to break down. Like bamboo is a very, very hardwood. And to break that down into a very malleable fiber, they use a ton of chemicals. So you have to really be a bit cautious for that. Like and for instance we sleep on a latex like we have latex, like if a healthy latex, I love it. I love the how it makes my back feel. It doesn't, I have a wool chopper on there. It doesn't, we don't get hot with it. It's great it, but you have to kind of look into that and see what fee it has to feel good and if it, if that is a foam mattress for you, that is the only way to go.
Annika (30m 26s):
I, I would put something over top so you don't directly sleep on it and sweat into that And that kind of just is a bit
Brian (30m 33s):
Very. And what would you say hormonally, I know you work some with some mainly women but some men progesterone if, if someone an individual is low in progesterone, is this something that you run across from with a lot of the women you work with?
Annika (30m 53s):
Yes and no. And I'm gonna explain why because yes, as soon as we hit like our forties progesterone's gonna go down latest and then this could cause sleep issues. And then I see a lot of discussion actually 'cause hormone replacement therapy is the big topic right now all over social media for women's health, which is great and it's always, we need progesterone to sleep to a degree that is correct but that is not the final equation. Like I have a lot of clients who are in their forties, fifties, some in their sixties and seventies have been on hormone replacement with solid doses a long times and are not sleeping and it's not, that can be part of your equation.
Annika (31m 36s):
But often I see women also it's like, oh yeah I went on progesterone, my sleep's great eight weeks later for some reason this is quite not working. So am I supposed to increase your my dose? Well where are you at? Well ready? 200 milligram. No, you probably should not like talk to your provider about that because I'm not, I cannot prescribe or anything with biodentical vomit. But it's not just that, right? Like the body is more complex than that. Otherwise there would be otherwise sleeping pills would maybe work. What's that? you know, it's just otherwise sleeping pills would maybe work. It's not that there is just one thing we, we normally address and then we have it all sorted for people with like more complex Yeah.
Annika (32m 19s):
Sleep issues or health issues. It's, it's mostly not one thing and there's mostly not a magic pill for it. But yes, progesterone being low can be part of your sleep problem.
Brian (32m 30s):
Yeah. 'cause you'll hear it like a lot of people will talk about just taking melatonin. Do do do, do you use that as a tool or even like magnesium? What about
Annika (32m 40s):
I use, I have a lot of people who come and melatonin is one of the first things that everybody tries I think, right? Yeah. I have people who like biohack doses of melatonin are not sleeping and I actually get them off. And if you look at scientific literature, anything between one and three milligrams for sleep is what's actually showing to have an impact on sleep. Anything above that
Brian (33m 10s):
One in one in three milligrams of melatonin you're talking about. Yes.
Annika (33m 13s):
And for a lot of people it doesn't work and it's the, you know, melatonin's important because it is an an very strong antioxidant. It's not just your sleepy arm one. It's a very strong antioxidant but I'm also not a fan of supplementing it synthetically. 'cause there's only one or two companies out there that have a plant-based melatonin right now. Which is I think is great for antioxidant. I've tried it personally. I don't think it affects my sleep like in any which way. It's great for antioxidant properties so I'm, I take it but it's here and there but it's not, I haven't seen it help, I don't see a lot of my clients having any success with melatonin.
Annika (33m 58s):
The, the one time where we use it strategically, if we have people, like for instance, I have a client, she used to wake up at three in the afternoon. Like she'd go to bed at 2:00 AM and wake up at three in the afternoon. Oh wow. She'd be afraid. Wake multiple times in there. She takes sleepless. How old was she sleeping? Pills. She's now 73. Wow. She has been doing this for over 30 years. Wow. And so what we do is we shift her circadian rhythm back into a bit of a more normal healthy we can function society. So she's now, and we've, this has been a process but she now wakes up 8, 8 30.
Annika (34m 38s):
Like this has been a journey for her. Yeah, I'd imagine. But she can't do that shift if quickly. This is sometimes where we need melatonin at the right doses at the right times to help the body shift its cycle. 'cause we're just pushing the, the amount at a different time. But other than that I think melatonin isn't the magic pill. Like it doesn't work for a lot of people. Dimming your lights, maybe wearing the blue blockers, all that stuff is gonna help you. Magnesium yes. Often works for people to just relax the system a bit more. Right? And even if, if you're somebody who has, who can't fall asleep really playing with a light dark, maybe with some magnesium, even topical magnesium that you just put on your legs can often help just to relax the body a little and maybe taking that edge off.
Annika (35m 30s):
Maybe if it's a bit of like an anxiety or a stress type situation that can help. But if your melatonin is low, if it actually was low, then the question is why is it low? Right? Is it because we're not, we're just exposed to too much artificial light, not enough sunlight. We're not sending the body the right signals to release the hormone at the right time. Is my gut an issue? Is my gut a mess? And believe it or not, I see that with a hundred percent of my clients. 'cause I think everybody and I do
Brian (36m 6s):
Everyone, everyone, everyone has gut issues, right?
Annika (36m 8s):
Yes. Everyone has gut issues and if you're not sleeping, helping that to make to, for your gut to be able to make serotonin, which is converted into melatonin even though it's the body's melatonin, but you have enough overall systemic melatonin then to calm things down to help you sleep is super important. So yes, you can try magnesium, see if it works. A lot of people say oh yeah, great for a while. And depending on where you are at with your sleep issues, it might be what helps you. It might be what works temporarily.
Brian (36m 42s):
Yeah. And is there any like supplementation that you do like, I mean you mentioned maybe a spray magnesium. Is there anything that, that else that you use as a tool or not really?
Annika (36m 55s):
Not so I do use tools but they're very dependent on what people's test results are. 'cause I test gut health, I test hormones, I test neurotransmitters, I test vitamin deficiencies just to see what's actually going on. I do see people having success but I, I personally test for it. I don't, I would not re personally I would not recommend it without testing. I do see people having success with like a GABA altheine combination sometimes temporarily. Especially for wake up, not so much for falling asleep. But that is is something personally I don't tinker with without knowing what's going on in the body.
Annika (37m 40s):
I'm just cautious with that.
Brian (37m 42s):
Yeah. So what would you say the big takeaways? I mean for me, I'm, I'm just thinking like most importantly start with like start getting your circadian rhythm back in line, right? Like do doing little things like you said like see seeing light in the morning, like getting up and going for a morning walk just to get your, your circadian rhythm back in line if you're, you know, what, are there any other things that we, that we should do? Like you mentioned the light is huge and con you know, these are things you can control. I think that's a great place to start before you start spending, you know, tons of money on funny.
Annika (38m 20s):
Absolutely. No you need to get your beha like ideally you get your behaviors right, right? Like what are we doing to support our sleep? And that's the thing, what we just said. I think that's the, I think that's the most important take takeaway is the, yes, bedtime routines are important but your bedtime routine starts in the morning. Everything you do throughout the day either pays into your account of being able to fall asleep or it takes away from it. And so that sunlight in the morning is super important. Managing your light overall, avoiding if you have trouble sleeping, I would avoid caffeine after 1:00 PM I would just avoid it. It doesn't do you any good other maybe those two hours where it gives you a bit of a boost.
Brian (39m 2s):
I know, you know, I'm sensitive to caffeine. I know with FDN we have like do that like MRT test and I know that I'm pretty sensitive with caffeine. I could just told you before I did the MRT that yeah that was something that could closet it. But isn't that the halflife of caffeine, isn't it six hours?
Annika (39m 16s):
Its, and if you think about it like the halflife means half of that caffeine is still in your system. If we do one o'clock, do six hours to that, right? Right. I think that's like 7:00 PM I'm doing this right. Yeah. And then there's still a quarter of that is still in there six hours later. So that is like going to Starbucks in the middle of the night and ordering a teeny tiny shot of something. Would you ever do that? No you would not. And yes, I know there's people who argue like my husband who can drink caffeine at like what ungodly hour. 'cause it leaves the system in seconds. It feels like not everybody is like that. And if you actually lower your caffeine intake, you'll actually see more energy later in the day.
Annika (40m 2s):
Not immediately. It will take a couple days a week, a bit more maybe But, it will shift. Your body's gonna get back into this normal, I have my own energy I can provide it.
Brian (40m 12s):
I've noticed that with myself. 'cause I stopped, I was using it as a pre-workout, you know, so I wasn't taking it like a lot and I wasn't taking it late in the day. 'cause I usually work out like midday, so I would take it 10:00 AM which is probably not a bad time for most people to, to if they're gonna have coffee to have it. But then I noticed I, you know, then I go work out and then like two, three o'clock, it was just like crash city. And I was like, I don't really feel like I should be feeling like this. Some people aren't like that. That was just something I found for myself. So I rarely have it. What about, I wanted to ask you this alcohol. Yes,
Annika (40m 47s):
I was gonna get into that. Oh sure. Yeah. A bad idea. If you wanna, like if you wanna sleep, do not drink alcohol at night because alcohol has been shown in studies over and over and over again that it messes with your sleep. Yes, it is. A bit of, it's a sedative, right? So, and especially women often say that, oh, if I have a glass of like red wine at night, it really helps me fall asleep. Yes it does. Specifically for women, it does help you fall asleep slightly faster. But, it messes with your deep sleep and it messes with your REM sleep. And that is why we often, when we wake up, we think we have a hangover in terms of, oh my god, I had too much alcohol but I only had a glass.
Annika (41m 35s):
Like how can that be? It's partially because the hormones that get sorted while you're sleeping didn't get completely metabolized and there's too much hormone that causes sleep pressure is still in the system. And then what do you do? You have coffee because that's what immediately works on those receptors, blocks them. And then you have energy. But that is a vicious cycle because then you have the coffee, then at night you need the wine again then or the beer and then you have the right, right. And it just, it isn't good for sleep. And I get it, we go to parties, we wanna be social, we want, and it's everybody's personal choice to say they wanna drink alcohol or not. If you do, if that's your thing, I would And, and you're worried about your sleep, I would move it a little earlier, like a 5:00 PM or something like that.
Annika (42m 26s):
But these like happy
Brian (42m 27s):
Hour with
Annika (42m 28s):
Food. Yeah, exactly. More of a happy hour. So your body has time to get it out of the system. So it doesn't, it's not the 9, 9 30 Netflix and I need my me low, like that's for sleep is just not a good idea.
Brian (42m 42s):
Right. So it might help you fall asleep, but sleep quality would be, would be,
Annika (42m 47s):
Yeah, definitely affected.
Brian (42m 50s):
Affected, yeah. What about CBD? Like, you know, now you know you have, well just marijuana in general. You have the uppers, the downer, the uppers. Like what is sativa? You have the hybrids and then you have, what's the one that I think that helps you fall, fall asleep? I'm drawing a blank. Anyways. Can, is this something that I'm sure you run into with clients maybe that they use to help them?
Annika (43m 19s):
Yes, they do. and we do that. There's a, there's a whole spectrum of this, right? There's the stuff that doesn't make you feel funny and there's the stuff that makes you feel funny.
Brian (43m 28s):
Oh, indica, I'm sorry, there we go. Indica, I believe indica will is like sort of like help you like sort of relax. Sati is more of an upper.
Annika (43m 39s):
Yes. And then I have, I see quite a few people who use like Delta eight gummies.
Brian (43m 44s):
Okay.
Annika (43m 47s):
And then well, and then there's, right, there's THC and then there's not THC. Sure, sure. And so the THC stuff, I, I see a lot of people, they say it helps me and I'm, I'm, I'm gonna tell you my opinion about all these later, but there's a lot of people say THC, like the Delta aids actually helped me, but they make me feel horrible in the morning. Right? And when I wake up, I feel like I'm completely stoned or drunk in the middle of the night. And it's actually really scary and there's nothing you can do about it, right? You're in it for the ride. And, and so I don't, it's up to me it's a bandaid. The body is made to sleep.
Annika (44m 27s):
We just need to figure out what's going wrong. It is made to do that. It is our biological need and the body can do it. So I think it's one of these bandaids, C, B, D just like THC free. and we, my husband and I tried this in the pandemic. I find it really depends on the person. Some people just don't seem to, it's like melatonin. Some people just don't react to it. Like I don't, if I take it, it doesn't make a difference. My husband says if it's good quality, like he actually notices an effect on his deep sleep. And that is the thing, right? It's like, yes, they all say they're tested, third party pure blah blah, blah.
Annika (45m 8s):
There still seems to be bioavailability, like bioavailability from the CBD, like how it, how good your body can use it and how well is your body receiving what you're giving it. And I haven't seen a lot of research that dissects what types or good for what people more in terms of what use, like you were just saying, right? What is an opera? What's, but it's really also a hit and miss. And if you wanna just try like a CBD oil that's THC free. That's what I would if at all advocate, like try to find something clean. and we had one company that we were very happy with out of the states, but they, they shot unfortunately.
Annika (45m 52s):
And I haven't seen a good, like I get sent these samples all the time. They're like, you know, I'm actually don't want it anymore. There's so many out there. Yeah,
Brian (46m 2s):
Yeah.
Annika (46m 3s):
I don't think they're magic. They're not a medic thing either.
Brian (46m 7s):
Yeah. I mean there's, there's ones with THC and without. Yeah.
Annika (46m 13s):
So in the THC is what makes you feel
Brian (46m 15s):
Like, yeah, high, high
Annika (46m 16s):
And hung over potentially the, the, like the, the, the T-H-C-C-B-D oil doesn't make you feel hung over. Right. And it's, and like yeah, for some people it works, but I've seen a lot of people who've tried it where it's like, no, I don't, it doesn't do anything.
Brian (46m 31s):
Okay, well sweet.
Annika (46m 33s):
And if you are trying that, I'm just gonna give a heads up here. If you're trying that and you are on any medication whatsoever, please go talk to your provider, especially if it has a THC in it. Like please go and make sure.
Brian (46m 46s):
Oh yeah. And if you're trying gummy, start slow. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Start really slow because edibles can, can sort of, they, they kick in like an hour later and, and sometimes you can overdo it. So yeah, definitely start slow. Well Annika, this was great. Sleep. Like a boss, right? Sleep. Like sleep. Sleep like a boss.com. Yes. And you have obviously coaching, what else? You have a podcast too as well.
Annika (47m 14s):
I have a podcast where it, it is more geared towards women, but I think generally because we talk a lot about hormonal things, we But it, we talk about gut health too, so that could be interesting for men as well. Yes. That's basically my website, my podcast, YouTube. But people can find me.
Brian (47m 33s):
Okay. Yeah, I will put Links in the show notes for, for people who want to learn more. And I love the name of your website, sleep Like A Boss. I'm thinking how did she get that one? That's a good one. I
Annika (47m 44s):
Actually, I, yeah, I actually took, the company's been around for I think seven years and I got the chance of taking it over from a previous.
Brian (47m 52s):
Okay, that makes sense. FDN, yeah. Oh, previous FDN. Yeah. Okay. Love that. Yeah, that worked out Annika. Well thank you so much for coming on and yeah, chopping all this knowledge about sleep, I'm sure someone could grab some, some tidbits here and just start slow and realign your circadian rhythm and hopefully you sleep better.
Annika (48m 13s):
Yes.
Brian (48m 14s):
Have a great day, Annika.
Annika (48m 16s):
You too.
Brian (48m 18s):
Thanks for listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned In, this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and have a great day.
