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0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): Leading the meal with protein can be definitely a great option, especially for people who want to lose weight. Because as we said, protein is the highest in terms of society for the macronutrients. So that can help you eat less in the meal. If you start the meal with protein. So that can be a subtle strategy that can subconsciously subconsciously make you eat less and lose weight without even tracking or worrying about food too much because you're consuming more protein. You're getting those nutrients in, and that mainly is uses to maintain, sustain, or build muscle mass. And you're getting even more full by eating it. So you tend to eat less calories overall, and that can help you lose body weight. 0 (49s): Hello, and welcome to the get clean eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin, and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed nutritionist and owner of a physique lab. Eugene low-key. He's worked with hundreds of clients in person and around the world. His specialties include improving fitness and body composition through a combination of specialized strength training programs and the building of sustainable eating habits. We discussed a wide variety of topics, including body fat set point hormones and weight loss, high protein diets, the best way to build muscle and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was. 0 (1m 42s): This was a great interview with tons of information. I know you'll benefit. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the interview. All right, welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. My name is Brian grin, and I got a special guest all the way from Italy, right. And it is Eugene Loki. Right. We talked about his name for a bit and I probably messed it up, but welcome. Welcome to the show. 1 (2m 10s): Thanks for having me, Ryan. Appreciate 0 (2m 12s): You. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the power of social media. We actually met through Instagram and if you check out his Instagram handle physique that's P H E a S Y Q U E. You'll see all his great. I love your content with your diagrams. I think it's just easy and simple. I think that that's, that makes it great. So welcome to the show. 1 (2m 37s): Thanks for having me. 0 (2m 39s): Yeah. And you're in Italy, right? 1 (2m 42s): Right. I mean, technically speaking, I am from Italy, but as of now, I'm not in Italy. So I'm staying like at my grandma's. Where are you at? It's called Kosovo. It's like close to Albania. Yeah. It's a one to two hours flight from Italy. Yeah. Okay. 0 (3m 7s): And I know you are a certified nutritionist, a personal trainer, and a, and you have some online platforms, maybe tell the audience a little bit about your background and how you got into like health and wellness. 1 (3m 21s): Sure. So it started pretty much like around 10 years ago. I just, my goal was to have apps. I was a chubby kid and all I wanted was like how to get a great body, at least looking wise. So I tried everything, you know, the classic healthy diets eat this, do not eat that. Or, you know, the classic myths without actually having like a solid scientific background and understanding. I was also a very young kid, so I wasn't even looking into it. But then the more I researched online and luckily like more information came on the internet that was backed up by science. 1 (4m 5s): The more I fell in love with it, like whether it was nutrition or training, I was very like curious to actually understand like the mechanisms of how things would work. And that's what pretty much got me started. So yeah, pretty much a decade ago. And from there I pursued my career into health and fitness through certifications such as personal training or doing the precision nutrition course. But I would say that most of my knowledge comes from a lot of experience because at the end of the day, within 10 years, you can make so many mistakes and learn from them that at one point you become, I don't know. 1 (4m 45s): So conscious about a lot of stuff that you're also able to explain them in a very easy way, which was why I started the Z. In fact, if you look at the name, which of course it's spelled like physique, like physique of the body. Right. But there's an easy in the word. So it's P H E a S Y E a Q U E. We sent for building a physique in an easy way. So explaining stuff in a simple way, which is what I do on Instagram, through my illustrations that are created myself. And really my goal is to educate people and understand like mechanisms that can be helpful in order to create like powerful workouts or even like nutritional habits so that they can learn and enjoy like, make it fun to actually understand like science, because I believe that most people love science. 1 (5m 42s): It's just the way that they're thought about it. That may sound boring for some but deeply. I believe that if you teach stuff that can be like, quote unquote boring for some, if you find like a way to talk about it in, I don't know, in terms not dumbing it down, but finding ways that you can talk about it more easily and even provide like illustration. So for the visual learners, then I believe that it can be a powerful message. And that's what I've been doing for the past five years. Pretty much. 0 (6m 14s): Yeah. I mean, I love it. I mean, you do all the hard work, the research and then you put it into diagrams and make it simplistic and yeah, it's great. And it's perfect for Instagram regarding that. I was looking at some of your illustrations and things like that. And some, some different topics cross my mind is I thought that we could talk about that would be advantageous to the people listening. One of them body fat set point. Yeah. I know. I, I follow a lot and I read a lot with Dr. Jason Fung and he talks about body set weight. And a lot of that's based off of your hormones and insulin levels and things like that. 0 (6m 56s): W what is, what are your thoughts around having a body fat set point and then being able to adjust it? 1 (7m 2s): So I guess there, there are many points of view in this topic. There are people who suggest there may not be a set point at all, like at least biologically speaking and others that suggest a more settling point rather than set point, which is based mainly on the environment and your culture and what we are surrounded with. So mainly based on your habits, rather than an actual biological setpoint, however, this, there was like a new paper. I don't remember top of my mind, the, the actual paper, but it's within the posts that I've linked through it that actually shows that there is a biological setpoint. 1 (7m 47s): So personally, I like to think of a mix of both. So the set point, so actually that has to do with the fat, the fat cells and like how hormones can regulate our hunger and energy expenditure, but also a settling point. Therefore, it's important to also take a look at the environment, like our habits and how we deal with the food that surrounds us, which is a lot. So yeah, if we want to dive into it, I would say that there definitely is at least in my opinion, a biological component, therefore we know that leptin is the main hormone, which regulates the metabolism. 1 (8m 29s): And it works pretty much like a thermostat, which regulates your hunger and energy expenditure based on how much food you are eating, but also your body weight and your body fat, actually, why that is important? Well, if you lose body fat and leptin is primarily produced by body fat cells, then if you lose body fat, then you're also reduce the amount of flapping that you produce. Therefore, if you produce less, slept in your brain is going to get not used, but it signals a lower amount of leptin. Therefore, since it was, it's less than what it was previously, then you regulate, regulates the amount of hunger that you may feel along the diet, and also your energy expenditure. 1 (9m 17s): Meaning if you're dieting, losing body fat, then you will experience a little bit of hunger and you will not get as full as easily as it would before the diet. And also you would lose generally. And obviously this becomes more and more prominent as you keep getting leaner, but you tend to rest more there. And so that coms mainly in the form of non exercise activity thermogenesis. So I'm talking mainly about the components of the metabolism that include the daily activities that do not imply a resistance training or training at all. 1 (9m 57s): Therefore it can be like fidgeting walking around. I dunno, scratching your head. You know, these activities that you do not pay attention to, but they actually play a role in a metabolic rate. And there was a paper that showed that neat. So non-exercise activity. Thermogenesis can have a difference between zero. I mean can go up to 2000 calories per day. So it can be a substantial difference in energy expenditure when we're talking about neat. And it's the component that it's mainly that most people do not pay attention to. And also the reason why many people can face plateaus during their diet. 1 (10m 40s): So the set point in disregard, how does it play out with all of this stuff that I just talked about? Well, if we feel well, let's say within a set point. So it just in early between 12 to 18% body fat and about 25 ish for one for women, we generally feel well there, right? We can do activity. We don't get like too hungry. And after a meal, we feel full. We don't need like anything else, but if we start dieting from there and get on lower body fat and the lower we get, the more we experience this, we tend to get hungrier. 1 (11m 25s): We tend to get more lethargic. So the idea of a set point is basically this regulated amount of body fat that your brain is used to have on which it functions well. And the more you move away from it, the more you will tend to experience different sort of adaptations. Now a good argument could be, well, if this happens when you're dieting, that's the word the same way on the opposite side. So do you get less hungry? Like the more fatter you get or you get like extra energetic, the more you gain weight. And anecdotally, that tends to be the case, at least for me, and for some clients that I work with, meaning as you approach a bowl, for example. 1 (12m 14s): So you're eating more calories and nutrients in general. So you're gaining weight gain muscle, but you will obviously get a little bit of fat too. Then you tend to experience like much less hunger and you kind of force yourself to eat a little bit. At one point after we reach a certain body weight or a serum, body fat level, however, then you would say, okay, but how could we explain obesity then if that would be the case. And that's something that I cannot answer, but I know that the set point, or at least the idea around the set point is that it's as symmetrical, meaning that while it may work this way on the lower side, I mean, when you lose body weight, it doesn't work exactly the same way as you gain it. 1 (13m 1s): Obviously there will come differences in hormones and for example, leptin resistance, which will definitely play a role, but also insulin, but it's much easier for people to gain weight than to lose it. And I think th the reason why it may quote, unquote, be as symmetrical for most people is because of the settling point and how the environment plays a role in this as well. So, yeah, I hope that made sense. You can mind that I'm Italian. So my English is just what it is. And I try my best to explain what I have in my mind. 0 (13m 39s): Yeah, no, no, that was good. That was good body fat set point. So, you know, I would say like for, just for myself, yeah. I've been probably a certain body fat percentage for a while. And I find that even if I lose a bit, the, my, the tendency is to go back to that norm. And probably people find that for body fat and also for their normal weight, right. They lose weight, they lose weight, but then they always tend to go back to their norm. The key though is I guess that a lot that, I guess the key question is, you know, how can you, like, almost like a thermostat in your house if you're always setting it at 70, you're all, it it'll always end up getting back there, but how can you set it? 0 (14m 23s): And instead of 70 and set it to 68 and, and, and, and keep it there. I think that's the question. 1 (14m 33s): And I guess the reason answer, but it's what people don't like to hear. So most people would like to like an answer to be like, okay, just do this. And it will forever be this physique and you will enjoy it forever. Well, the reality is worse in a way, because even like after years of maintenance of the new body weight and new body fat levels, when the, that, when they tested metabolism in this, the metabolism, the metabolic rate in this study, they still notice a suppression in the amount of metabolic rate that they would have, meaning that even if they maintain the physique through willpower or through habit changes, or, you know, they pretty much did everything they could to just maintain the new level of leanness. 1 (15m 24s): They would still have a suppress metabolic rate. So to answer the question is, yes, you can surely maintain the new physique and the new body fat level. It just will suck to do so, meaning that you will face some changes. You will have to face a little bit of hunger here and there, and you will definitely have to change your habits. That will be the main requirement 0 (15m 51s): Slowing. So the question is, is, and I have maybe what I would think would be maybe some type of answer for this is, let's say you're 180 and you're 20% body fat, and you want to get 1 75 and 15% body fat along those lines. 1 (16m 9s): Okay. That's completely feasible. And I don't think like it would be such an issue to remain at that level. I'm mainly talking about like a much lower body fat levels. So let's say from 15 to 12 slash 10% or even lower that's when it really becomes a much more difficult thing to face pretty much. But from 20 to 15, I think most people can do it as long as they have a little bit of structure in their program and they have some willpower to do it, then it shouldn't take long. And even once you, once you get there, it shouldn't be that much of an issue to maintain. It provided like at least a little bit of a positive habit, formation such as, I don't know, eating a more protein within the meals, just to increase the amount of satiety that you will get per meal. 1 (17m 2s): And couple it with some veggies, not saying you should cut everything else out. Of course have what you normally have. But focusing on these can provide a lot of Sodality and much, it can be much easier for you to maintain those results simply because you don't feel as hungry as you would by not eating them. 0 (17m 22s): Yeah. And I was going to say, and I know Dr. Fung talks a lot about how focusing on getting that your insulin levels lower for a longer period of time can help maybe bring your body set weight down. And he's obviously a big proponent of fasting. What are your thoughts around that? 1 (17m 41s): So, personally, I like passing myself, but just because it's always been like natural to me to skip breakfast. So it's not like it was something that I did because I learned about it necessarily. Obviously I learn more about intermittent fasting mainly through Martin Berkhan, who was like the intermittent fasting guru, so to speak, or at least the one who introduce it mainly or made it mainstream. But yeah, I used to fast, like pretty much since I was a kid in school, just because I would wake up late and skip breakfast because I would prefer to sleep more. And then I just found out about it and it was, oh, cool. 1 (18m 21s): This is a thing. So, but yeah, personally, I think it's definitely a strategy that works and I love it, but I would say I would suggest it to people who enjoy doing it. Therefore, I wouldn't say do intermittent fasting. If you are the person who stays there with checking their clock and just say, okay, now I can eat. Now I cannot eat, you know, pretty much caging themselves into a weeding window that can do more harm than good, because it can feel stressful or it just doesn't feel right for you. And of course, it's not like the only person that works, because if we match the amount of calories and nutrients that we will spread throughout the day or throughout an eating window. 1 (19m 8s): So if we blind to manifesting, then the results can be the same. So it's mainly about what works best for you or for the person. And then trying to structure a plan based on his or her habits and so that he can stick to it for longer, which is what we know will bring the most amount of results. 0 (19m 28s): Yeah, no, I agree. I think I always say fasting is definitely something that you got to get used to, but it's interesting. A lot of people naturally don't enjoy eating breakfast or don't like yourself even think about the fact that you were fasting. You know, when you're a kid, you just eat, you eat more based off your intuition. As you get older, there's this messaging from all these companies telling you that you should eat all the time and every, and it's like a social norm thing that you should be eating. But when you were a kid that there was none of that, and you just sort of followed your intuition and your hunger hormones were more in line with what you really felt. And that's a big issue now with a lot of people, is that, you know, we've all, you know, our, you know, we're all like eating all the time. 0 (20m 12s): Cause we think that we need that for energy when we really don't. 1 (20m 15s): Exactly. And most people who live probably won't need like so much food, even if they're booking. So for example, like in bulk, at very easily at 2,800 calories, I'm very sedentary. So I don't need like that much food. Even now, obviously fasting has a lot of benefits though, even when it comes to food, selection and meal volume, for example, if we can find like people who enjoy having large meals like myself, maybe yourself, if you're fasting, then fasting can be an option, especially when dieting. So we already know that to lose body fat, you need to create a color deficit, therefore eat less than your body needs to sustain his body weight. 1 (21m 1s): So if we want to back those calories within a number of meals, but still have at least a volume Munis meal and not like a very small one that intermittent fasting can be an option. And I feel like those are the main benefits. Obviously there can be more benefits like on a cognitive level and even like on a cellular level, right. I don't personally like to stress that upon clients because most people just want to learn what is the easiest quote-unquote and best way that they can do stuff that they want to do without having to necessarily nerd and focus on it, like, and give their whole life into it. 1 (21m 42s): Right. So yeah, I think any option can work. And again, what matters the most to me is that people find the best approach that works for them because that's the only way that they can do it. Long-term and not short-term. And that's, what's going to bring the results. If you can find like whether it's fasting or not fasting, if it's something that you can stick to, and it's not like something that you're, you feel you're doing as a job, pretty much like dieting, you know, I have to diet from Monday, like you're now signing up for a new job or something. If it's something natural, then you will stick to it regardless. And you will, you won't even feel the need to cheat on your diet or, you know, get off track just because you do it normally. 1 (22m 27s): And that's what is going to bring results. And also to answer one question that you asked me, which I didn't reply was whether or not the set point can be changed. There's definitely not enough research on the matter, but from what it is, it looks like you cannot meaning that even if you maintain your new body weight for a number of years, you will, your metabolism will still be suppressed and it will only get back to normal once you regain a little bit of body fat. So I'm not convinced of whether or not it can be changed at least based on the reference that we have now, but I'm open to change my mind. 1 (23m 10s): And if that's a possibility, I would be happy. Do you know how so that I can get cleaner and maintain my physique for a longer time? Yeah. 0 (23m 19s): Yeah. Interesting. And w you know, calories in calories out, there's this ongoing debate and between that, and like the insulin model and which one would control losing weight and body fat, and I've never been a big proponent of counting calories. I just, I never done it myself. And like we talked about before I try and for my clients, as we, you know, eat, eat until you're satisfied, like, let's just say 80% full. And what are your thoughts around, I mean, you mentioned calories. I w what constitutes, how much someone, you know, what's their calorie, you know, debt deficit, or w w w what's their, what should they be eating as far as how many calories, like, is that something that you follow? 1 (24m 9s): Sure. So, first of all, I agree with you that it's not necessary to count calories by any means. And yeah, most people shouldn't, if they don't want to get to a certain and very specific level of leanness somebody, if a level, now, when you say eat at the 80% level of fullness, then it becomes very difficult for people to track what 80% even means. And 80% for me would mean, I dunno, maybe eating much more than what petite women would feel at 80%. And that that's totally fine because we have two different metabolic rates now, intuitive eating, therefore eating like to your society. 1 (24m 58s): I believe it works, but only after you have an amount of knowledge in terms of nutrients and how much, and even a caloric limit and how many calories at least theoretically a meal would have, because otherwise, I believe you wouldn't be able to be accurate with it, because if you have a meal food rich in protein and fibers, for example, you would get to that 80% level very fast, because we know that protein and fibers are very satiety as nutrients, as opposed to having like a plate of mainly carbohydrate ish slash bad foods, you would probably get to that 80% level after eating much more compared to a leaner protein. 1 (25m 45s): So even if you get to the same level, the amount of calories that you would have in both meals would be quite different. And that would throw off like a little bit of the results that you may get by being a tiny bit more accurate. Now, again, to reiterate, I don't think that most people should learn, or at least even worry about counting calories. And I believe that there's a method even in teaching it, because it can be very tricky for people and it can be any, can get very obsessive for some. And that's another ballpark of issues that a lot of coaches are not even aware of. So, but if, if we want to get to a specific level of Venus, for example, it can be contest level in such as by building. 1 (26m 32s): Then it definitely plays a role because it's the most, the fastest way that you can get there because it's the most accurate. Now, how do we calculate a metabolic rate correctly? Estimated because every calculation that we or form are just estimations, we cannot like be precise ever because your daily expenditure can change on a day-to-day basis, depending on the circumstances of that day. Even like if you didn't account for your mom calling you to go pick her up at the station, because I don't know, or a car broke. So you now are adding like some level of activity that you didn't even account for. You cannot predict those. 1 (27m 13s): So obviously metabolic rates change and they're variable. And even if, and the reason why they're variable is because the metabolic rate in itself. So the total daily energy expenditure is made up of the sum of other different variables. So we have the BMR, which is the basal metabolic rate, which accounts for the calories that your body burns just to sustain its basic function and just live pretty much, it's slightly different from resting metabolic rate because the resting metabolic rate accounts for the same amount of energy, but just when you're a conscious. So your, for example, I'm sitting here and not doing much besides from talking and my resting metabolic rate would be slightly higher than the basal metabolic rate, simply because my muscles are contracting to maintain my posture, right, as opposed to just laying on the bed and sleeping, then we have to also account for the thermic effect of food, which is the amount of calories that our body burns just to convert food into energy. 1 (28m 20s): And that changes for every nutrient. It can be very different for the amount of protein that we have in a meal, the amount of fast that we have in a meal, the amount of carbohydrates that we have in a meal. So we can see that even the thermic effect of food can be very different depending on the meal composition that we have. But generally speaking in accounts for about 10% of total calories a week for the day. So it's proportionate to the amount of calories that we eat. Then we have the thermic effect of activity, which again, it's another variable because every person can play very different sports. And the amount of energy that one spore will require will be completely different from another one. 1 (29m 3s): For example, I reckon that recreational weightlifter could spend around 200 to 300 calories per session of by just lifting weights, you know, like the classic gym row, but somebody who's working on very high intensity sports, which can be like running or whatever we can think of like, even like combat sports, those will burn a lot more calories. So, right. The thermic effect of activity will be another variable to account for which will be different for every person. And lastly, we have the non-exercise activity thermogenesis, which is pretty much the amount of calories that you burn during the day, like me just stimulating docking and that accounts for the most amount of calories. 1 (29m 52s): And as I said earlier, can go up even to 2000 calories per day. So that throws off the estimations by a lot, if you're not being accounting for dose, for example, 0 (30m 6s): And as far, I'm sorry to interrupt you as far as all these calculations. I mean, these are mainly based a lot on your genetics, right, 1 (30m 14s): Right, right. But I think even their environments plays a huge role because if you live in a city, for example, and let's say you have a, quite a good social life, and you're used to go outside a lot, then you may have like a high level of need just because you like to go out and walk a lot with your friends. Or maybe if you have like a construction labor, as opposed to office working, then your energy expenditure work will change by a lot. And that is not necessarily training. That is just like your job. And it's not like it doesn't necessarily account for, for the part of metabolic rate that accounts for training, because it's a slightly different, similar square, at least not specific as training would be. 1 (30m 58s): So all these, some summed up we'll create the total daily energy expenditure. And that's one reason why DD can change for everybody. And my approach will not work for you. Not because my tracking calories will not work for you, but just because there are so many differences in how I live my life and you live your life, that the numbers would probably change. And of course that's based also on your lean body mass and your activity and your environment and everything. 0 (31m 33s): Right. So I think the bottom line is there's a lot of different factors that can play a role into, you know, your energy expenditure. And I think the bottom line is you just got to a lot of, it's a self experimentation and feeling what's right for you as far as you know, how much to eat. And, you know, as far as what to eat, I know a lot of you, a few of your posts on Instagram, talk about protein. And I always talk about, I've had a lot of guests, Dr. Ted Naiman and things like that on there, where we, where we've talked about leading with protein, when it comes to meals, what are your thoughts around, you know, the correct, like ma maybe there's not a perfect match or macronutrient calculation or formula for everybody, but w what are your thoughts around, you know, protein versus fats and carbs. 0 (32m 18s): And 1 (32m 19s): I love that suggestion and leading a meal with protein can be definitely a great option, especially for people who want to lose weight. Because as we said, protein is the highest in terms of such society for the macronutrients. So that can help you eat less in the meal, if you start the meal with protein. So that can be a subtle strategy that can subconsciously subconsciously make you eat less and lose weight without even tracking or worrying about food too much, because you're consuming more protein. You're getting those nutrients in. And that mainly is uses to maintain, sustain, or build muscle mass. And you're getting even more full by eating it. 1 (32m 59s): So you tend to eat less calories overall, and that can help you lose body weight. So in terms of requirements for proteins, even that will change based on your goal and, and sports. So I like to talk about a lot about bodybuilders, because that's what I mainly focus on. And the population that follow my page, but protein requirements will vary again, depending on goal for bodybuilders specifically, generally it is advised to eat at least 2.3 grams up to 3.1 gram per kilogram of lean body mass. 1 (33m 40s): So when I talk about lean body mass, I mean, total body weight minus fat mass, and you calculate those numbers based on that scaling upwards, as we get cleaner, because the goal of a bodybuilder when dieting for a contest or whatever competition is to maintain as much muscle mass as possible, or even try to build it, if it's a possibility at all. So the more we get leaner and the more fat we lose, the more, you know, acids can become readily available for energy use. And you want to prevent that, and you do so by increasing the amount of protein that you eat. So that's why research suggests you eat 2.3 up to 3.8 grams per kilogram of lean body mass scaling upwards. 1 (34m 28s): As we get leaner, just to prevent muscle loss and present at the stage with the highest amount of body lean body mass that you may possibly have. 0 (34m 37s): Yeah. It's interesting. That's a, that's a, that's a lot, that's a lot of bread. That's a lot of protein, 1 (34m 44s): But keep in mind that it's based on lean body mass. So if 0 (34m 47s): You use, let's just say, if you weigh 170 pounds, right, your lean body mass might be 140, right? 1 (34m 57s): Yes. But then you want to convert that into kilograms and multiply by the grounds. So the recommendations are based on kilogram for a amount per kilogram of lean body mass. So one kilo equals to 2.2 a bounce. So you want to divide 140 pounds by 2.2. And what you have as a result, you multiply that by 2.3, up to 3.1, and it can be a high amount for many, but it's not so high to the point where it becomes impossible to eat. It. It's fairly easy to get protein in, especially with supplementations now, and you know, more protein, rich food available everywhere. 0 (35m 42s): What are your, what are your favorite sources of protein for yourself or your clients? 1 (35m 47s): Good question. So I like to eat meat. It's very easy for me to cook chicken breasts. I'm very basic like that, but I like even purchasing, I don't know, like, you know, those milk bottles that contain 30 grams of protein just above. And yeah, I like to purchase those because it's very convenient for me to eat them, but then even eggs. Obviously I can be dairy pretty much everything that contains protein, but yeah, meat is probably my favorite source can be fish tuna and, you know, protein shakes. 1 (36m 31s): Yeah. 0 (36m 32s): Okay. And just switching gears a little bit, cause I know you talk a lot about different ways to make gains. There's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that maybe are in their middle-aged. And what are your thoughts around gaining muscle as you get older? And also I noticed one of your posts is more volume, equal, more gains. I'm curious your thoughts around that. 1 (36m 55s): Hmm. Beautiful question. So obviously everyone can build my soul at any age and if anything, the elder can only benefit from working out because there are so many positive adaptations that occur with resistant training that are not limited to only muscle gaining. That is really you're doing yourself a disservice. If you're not training for your organism. I mean, it can be a little bit more difficult, especially because of the way that the elder may approach resistant training. They may be more fearful even like psychologically, they may be more fearful of movement. So in that regard, I think like the coach should be able to help ease that for the client and work on a progression that matches his evolution mindset wise. 1 (37m 46s): So you don't want to rush it like for, for example, with younger kid who only wants to lift as much as possible, you obviously want to Gatorade to a level of expectation that he has an easing it easing it easing him or her to still be able to make gains. But at the rate that he feels comfortable with, that doesn't mean that the person should not lift heavy. And when I say happy, I mean, relative to his or her strength, because that's still, that is still the goal. You still want to the person to get stronger because that's going to provide a lot of beneficial adaptation for the person and where the question does more volume I-Corps equal more gains. 1 (38m 34s): The answer is it depends. So there are many ways that we can talk about volume generally in the research is talked about a volume load. So it can be number of reps, time sets, time slowed used. So that's the formula for volume load. Then there is the number of sets or reps, and then there is a number of sets performed to failure. Now, when we look for correlation between hypertrophy and volume, we can only find that when we talk about volume intended, as sets taken to failure, because for example, we know that both life loads and heavy loads can produce very similar hypertrophy, but amount of volume load that the both styles can produce can be completely different. 1 (39m 24s): So we wouldn't be able to explain how that would be possible if volume load was the right correlation of, or formula to account for volume and hypertrophy. Therefore, when we talk about volume in relation to hypertrophy, we want to talk about it in terms of sets take into failure. Because when we take sets to failure, we account for the amount of effort that we get within the set. And when we reach failure, both styles, so you can be lightweights, moderate weights, or heavyweights reach the Singh amount of effort exertion, which is what will actually dictate why we can get similar hypertrophy. 1 (40m 6s): Because when we perform a set with lightweights, the first reps feel very easy. Barbell moves very fast. There's very little amount of effort, but as fatigue, accumulates, and the amount of effort perceived increases, then the same thing, sorry, the same will happen for the ma the model units and the muscle fibers that are governed by the high threshold motor units that will get recruited. Therefore, even with light weights were able to recruit all the muscle fibers for the intended working muscles and because of effort, then as we accumulate more reps through fatigue, we get to the point where even the repetitions with us with a lightweight can become very hard. 1 (40m 54s): The barbell moves very slow because the amount of effort is maximum. And that is very similar to how a heavy load moves. So slow bar speed effort will lead to similar levels of approach. 0 (41m 8s): So you can get to get there either way, whether you know, a heavy load or light load and depending on just the volume and the, and the effort exerted. 1 (41m 18s): Exactly. However, whether that is definitely the case and it works great. You obviously need to account for the amount of fatigue that each training style will accumulate because when we do more reps, more repetitions for a given set, then we will accumulate fatigue within the central central nervous system, which can be hinder, I mean, which can hinder our progress on the following workouts. Because if we're training in a fatigue state, then we will not be able to record all the muscle fibers for the intended working muscle. So that can be detrimental. So to speak in that case, how can we prevent that is by using a load that gets us to close to failure and not like the true, true failure within a moderate slash heavy load so that we can get there faster. 1 (42m 5s): So we accumulate less fatigue. And that's funny because most people think about heavy loads being more fatigued, oriented workouts. One said, it's mainly the lightweights that can cause it because of the amount of reps that you accumulate and the amount of hard reps that pretty much fatigue your central nervous system and will not allow you, obviously, depending on how much you do our beach can hinder your progress on the following session. So you want to calibrate the amount of volume that you perform on a weekly basis, and you do so by also picking the right ranges of floating zones in order to mitigate the most amount of fatigue and be able to progress faster, but yes, on paper and obviously in practice as well, both lightweights and heavyweights can produce very similar amounts of hypertrophy. 1 (42m 57s): Assuming we compare both when volume is in Canada, sass take into failure. 0 (43m 4s): Got it. Got it. Yeah. I've had some individuals on my podcast recently, Dr. J John Jake, which I don't know if you're familiar with his band. He has a band system called the I'm familiar with, okay. Yeah, no, I talk a lot about it. Cause I used to do traditional weights for a long time and I've gone to resistant band system where it's more variable resistance and, and it's, it, it, I I've actually really enjoyed it and I've put on muscle from actually doing less than I would have to have done with dumbbells. And it's been less strain on my joints and things like that. So I'm curious. 1 (43m 42s): Yeah. I think, yeah, I'm using bands can definitely be great option as because you change pretty much strength, colors, the amount of resistance that you produce with a band changes due to gravity and the amount of force that the given like a dumbbell or band can produce is different. So even that can be implemented in the, into a certain training plan that you do with weights and actually can be a very good option even to train, like, for example, lockout strength for exercises such as I don't dunno the bench press, but even the squad or deadlifts. 1 (44m 23s): So because it obviously increases the amount of resistance that you will have to face as you complete the repetition, as opposed to generally when you use just normal weights, it becomes more easy at that point. So yeah, it's can definitely be a way even to provide different types of adaptations, but also variance to your training plan and can maybe even be more fun for you to perform it. And when you said, I find myself getting more muscle by doing less, that that is a very great point because a lot of people think that you want to do like as much as possible because we tend to follow what the media shows us and what people have. 1 (45m 10s): I don't know the Olympia do on at the gym. So going every time to failure doing thousands of exercise every single day training seven times a week. And if you don't do it, don't want it bad enough, but the reality, the, if we want to make progress, you can do so by just focusing on training those three to four times a week, that's completely fine. And you can definitely maximize the results even within those amount of sessions and focusing on performing 10 to 20 sets per muscle group per week. And when I say sets, I mean heart sets. So if we know that the correlation between hypertrophy volume is intended, when volume is intended as a SAS into failure, then we want those number of sets to be at least close, if not to failure. 1 (46m 3s): And yeah, the ballpark within 10 to 20 sets per muscle group per week will allow you to make the best gains that you can possibly do. And that doesn't mean like doing, working out a lot or doing too much. It's really like you can break that down into training the muscles twice a week or even thrice. And the number of sets actually looks very little compared to what you may be used to, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work. In fact, it works even better because you are able to, by doing less, you're able to train harder, accumulate less fatigue, and still be able to progress, which at the end of the day, we know that progressive overload will be the main driver of muscle growth. 1 (46m 46s): So it's not like doing thousands of reps until you've. And if you don't feel sore, you, you think that you haven't made progress, it's actually being able to track your gain. So whether it is by increasing the number of reps that you can do per set, or the load that you're moving, if you're getting stronger, not necessarily by doing too much volume across the week, then you are making progress in terms of muscle mass. 0 (47m 13s): Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I keep hearing about like these micro workouts where, you know, even if you, you can do them throughout the day, right? Like even doing 10, 15 minutes at a time. I mean, my workouts have gotten, I've gotten, I think the, the stimulus has gotten better. I honestly think that with the bands they've gotten, the stimulus is high and the workout time has come down and I'm not being, not sore actually. And I'm building muscle because I always thought I was old school for a while thinking, oh, you gotta be sore to build muscle. And I know one of your posts was, does muscle damage cause hypertrophy, right? 0 (47m 52s): I would say no that, and, and actually Dr. Jacob and I talked about this on the last podcast, what are your thoughts around that? 1 (48m 2s): And that's completely correct. Muscle damage does not cause growth because there's no correlation between it. The previous idea was that how calm we can see a growth in muscle mass when we strength train, and there is muscle damage as a result, does this mean that muscle damage is the main cause of hypertrophy or no? Well, it turns out it isn't because when we perform muscle damaging workouts, we notice that there is an increase in muscle protein synthesis. So that could lead you to believe that maybe it is for billing purposes, but in reality, it turns out it is for just remodeling purposes. 1 (48m 46s): When fibers break, they pretty much get constructed again, by increasing the amount of protein that goes to those cells, they can either be repaired or even changed for if they're completely broken, putting simple terms. Then another idea why there was this belief is that following muscle damaging workouts, we would notice the satellite cell activity would increase. And what satellite cells activity do is pretty much help re muscle cells regrow or recreate a regenerate. And again, we would think that that may be adding new muscle fibers to the muscle because it, it has gotten damaged. 1 (49m 33s): So maybe satellite cells are going to help them grow bigger here. Reality turns out it's only for regeneration purposes. So again, that's another quote, unquote myth debunked. And then there is the third one, which is, well, if we are able to produce more hypertrophy with eccentric contractions compared to concentric ones and eccentric attractions also cause more muscle damage than concentric ones, then we can say that muscle damage causes more effort. Well, in reality, the reason why a Accenture contractions are able to get more hypertrophy is because when we are lowering weight, for example, on a bench press. 1 (50m 18s): So we are at the barbell and we lower it down to our chest. The amount of force that we can produce to resist the movement is higher because other than muscle fibers themselves. So the amount of actin and myosin cross bridges, they're basically forming cross bridges to produce force. It's not only those that are accounting for the first graded, but also Titan, which is a molecule of protein that is found, which basically produces force by resisting the formation of the muscle is also accounting for the, the force produced. So that means that we have now two systems producing force as we lowering the load, as opposed to only muscle fibers producing force, as we are pushing the weight up. 1 (51m 9s): So that's one reason why it's eccentric. Contractions can create more force because it's not only the muscle fibers, but also tighten and that are producing force. And that can account for actually about 30% more in terms of load. So for example, if we can, concentrically lift a load for our one arm, then we can lower that the same load by even adding 30% more of the load. And that's why then eccentric attractions are able to produce more hypertrophy. They simply allow you to lift more weight and therefore produce more mechanical tensions to be experienced by the muscle fibers, which will grow as a response. 1 (51m 53s): So again, there, we cannot find like a positive correlation between muscle damage and hypertrophy. And if anything, it can only be likely detrimental if you experienced muscle damage. Like long-term, because that means that you're doing too much volume to begin with, and you're not allowing yourself to recover between sessions. So 0 (52m 15s): Yeah. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah. So to summarize, getting sore could actually caught being sore all the time could actually cause more harm than good, 1 (52m 27s): Right? At least if your goal is to build muscle is definitely not the most optimal way to train. Obviously you will experience some level of soreness depending on what you're doing. For example, if you're changing the exercises or if you're coming from a period of D training, you will definitely be in some soreness because you are now quote, unquote not used to it anymore. Right. But it should quickly go away. And that shouldn't be seen as a metric that is wrong. It's just the way it is your body adapts, but that shouldn't be seen as the only metric that produces results. What produces a result is getting stronger and actually seeing like a trackable progress that you can notice, like now I'm able to live, let's say a hundred kilos on the bench. 1 (53m 15s): So that's around two 20 on the bench. Am I able from now after two months to lift two 30 to 40? Yes. Okay. Then that is progress. Not looking for soreness and you know, all these metrics that do not allow you to track actual progress. 0 (53m 38s): And, and, and the other thing I got from what you talked about was just so people know, like you should focus a lot too on slowing down the movement at, at like, as like you talked about a bench press, you're pressing it up. Right. Most people focus on that part and then this, and then letting it down. It's just like an afterthought, right? Like I've fell into that too for a long time, but you almost want to think almost like two seconds down. Right. Because that, that's where you can find your, your most gains 1 (54m 12s): . And actually it can even be lower within two to three seconds depending. But, and there's a lot of info even like on the eccentric overloading, because it's an area that most lifters probably don't spend too much time on because yeah. As you said, most people focus on the concentric because generally lowering it is quite easy. And then you just try to push it as much as possible, but there's a lot of stuff, even on eccentric overloading. And when it comes to maximizing hypertrophy, them blocks of actually eccentric overloading can play which roles, because you're now working with super, super, super maximal weights that wouldn't be able, you wouldn't be able to lift concentrically, but since you have the ability to do it, eccentrically Daniel, you pretty much find a new way to simulate your muscle mass with more load without necessarily having to get stronger. 1 (55m 11s): Concentrically yeah. That 0 (55m 13s): Would be like, like the negatives, right? We call them, call them negatives. I'm sure they still do. But so that would be like, obviously you'd want someone to spot you. Let's just say you're doing a bench press, maybe put on there, like you said more than you could do concentrically which means pushing it off your chest and, and, and have them help you at least spot you as you're lowering it slowly and then the help them get it off your chest and do it. I think a lot of people don't do those. I used to do those because they're very difficult. I mean, 1 (55m 46s): Definitely the only downside is probably the fact that you need at least somebody else to help you. So that can be seen like a, you know, maybe it's something not feasible for many, but definitely worth like trying and experimenting it out. 0 (56m 1s): Yeah. And that just reminds me of just with, with the bands and the x-ray that I use is to focus a little bit more on that east centric part and slow down. Cause that's, that's when you can make some real gains. 1 (56m 14s): Exactly. But at the same time, when we're talking about eccentrics, we need to keep in mind that eccentrics caused more muscle damage compared to concentric ones. And muscle damage is linked to fatigue, accumulation, and the fatigue that we experience at the CNS level. Therefore, when we want to program, for example, blocks of eccentric training, we want to make sure that we're not accumulating too much fatigue in the sessions, because then again, that can be detrimental for training plan and so on and so forth. 0 (56m 45s): Very good. Wow. This was great. I could talk for much longer, but we're getting up. We're getting up on an hour. What would you say? Just last question. What would you say? One tip for like a middle aged man or woman who wants to maybe get their body back to what it once was when they were in their twenties? What would one tip? You'd give that person, 1 (57m 7s): First of all, I would say that, of course it comes down to training and nutrition. So you, if you can, you want to find like, what is the best way, or at least the easiest thing that you can do now to just approach towards that world, whether it is to eat a little bit more protein during the day, or going outside for a walk, just, I don't know. The easiest thing that you can think of that still pushes you towards a healthier quote-unquote habit. Now, once that new thing becomes a habit and you do it easily, then you can push into higher level once. So maybe can be resistant training or eating a more nutritious food sites from only eating more protein. 1 (57m 52s): So it can be like experimenting with more veggies or more healthier source sources of foods that contain more fibers. And again, more protein, then we're not solved for a walk and potentially starting resistant training. My main tip could be, find the way that it is enjoyable for you. And I'm not like feeling that it's like a chore for you to go outside. And most importantly, that you're doing for you're doing it for yourself and not for anybody else. So you want that to be okay, I want to do this. What is the easiest way that I can at least start? Can I do that? 1 (58m 32s): Yes. Sure. Okay. Now I feel more motivated to keep pushing towards a new goal and so on, but we can only do that when we enjoy it. And most importantly, when we do it for ourselves, because we actually want it and not because somebody else is pushing us, otherwise we would lose like the motivation. If it wasn't intrinsic to begin with. 0 (58m 55s): Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Take small steps. Right? It's all about making small wins and one thing at a time, I always say, 1 (59m 6s): Because it comes down to doing it forever. Pretty much like you want it long-term because otherwise you will not read its benefits. So what is the way that you can do it and sustain it for a long time, based on your own habits, you don't want to follow anybody if you don't think they align with yours, work on yours and see what are the small changes that you can do. And from there, take it one step further. 0 (59m 33s): Love it, love it. Well, this was great. The best place. Well you tell me the best place for people to find you is. 1 (59m 42s): Yeah. My best place to find me is Instagram. So at the physique, I'm working now on a website that is going to be launching soon, but yeah, everything can be found on the page. If you, if you guys enjoy, like to see illustrations that talk about fitness, nerdy stuff, then that's the best place that you can find them. 0 (1h 0m 4s): Awesome. Yeah, this is great. And I'll put a, I'll put a link in the show notes for people to, to click on it. They can find new easily. Well, thank you so much. This was great. And yeah, we'll talk in the future, I guess. Sounds 1 (1h 0m 18s): Good. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure for me and it was a lot of fun. Appreciate it. Thank you. Hey, get 0 (1h 0m 26s): Lean equally nation. Are you a man between the ages of 40 and 60 years old looking to lose inches around your waist have significantly more energy throughout the day and gain muscle all while minimizing the risk of injuries? Well, I'm looking for three to five people to work one-on-one with in my fat burner blueprint signature program, which I've developed by utilizing my 15 years experience in the health and fitness space. This program is designed specifically for those committed, to making serious progress towards our health goals. Over the next six months, we will focus on sleep, stress, nutrition, meal, timing, and building lean muscle. 0 (1h 1m 7s): If this sounds like a fit for you, email firstname.lastname@example.org with the subject line blueprint. That's email@example.com with the subject line blueprint. Thanks for listening to the get lean eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show firstname.lastname@example.org for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.