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episode #78

Interview with Robb Wolf: Gut Issues, Important Lab Tests and Ways to Increase Testosterone

September 3, 2021 in Podcast


This week I interviewed 2x New York Bestselling Author and one of the leading experts in Paleolithic nutrition - Robb Wolf. We discussed his health journey into the Paleo/Keto way of eating, how to deal with gut issues, along with: - Cholesterol and Red Meat - What Lab Tests are Important - The Importance of Testosterone as we age - Are you getting enough sodium? and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was! Connect with Robb: https://robbwolf.com/ https://www.instagram.com/dasrobbwolf/?hl=en If you love the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast, we’d love for you to subscribe, rate, and give a review on iTunes. Until next time!

0 (1s): Coming up on the, get lean, eat, clean podcast, weigh and measure all your food, including what soap sodium you add to things, put it in chronometer and then we can see what you have. And I was getting less than two grams of sodium per day. So I upped my sodium intake to five grams a day, and it was like a light switch was flipped. It was just magic eyes. You know, all these problems that I had, like kind of sleep issues, a little bit of elevated heart rate, all this stuff just completely resolved. Hello and welcome 1 (32s): To the get clean, eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin. And I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed two time new York's bestselling author, and one of the leading experts in paleolithic nutrition, 0 (58s): Rob Wolf, we discussed his health journey into the paleo keto way of eating, how to deal with gut issues along with cholesterol and red meat. What lab tests are important, the importance of testosterone as we age, are you getting enough sodium and is one tip to get your body back to what it once was? I really enjoyed my interview with Rob lots of great tips and information. I hope you enjoy it. And thanks so much for listening. All right. Welcome to the Gatling, eat clean podcast. My name is Brian grin. I get a great guest on Rob Wolf. Welcome to the show. Huge honor to be here. Thanks. Yep. Thanks for coming on. I, I listened to a lot of, a lot of you on other podcasts. 0 (1m 41s): I'm like, oh, it'd be great to have you on. And I think we have a lot in common as we were talking offline a little bit. And before we get into a bunch of different topics that I've have have written out for today, why don't you just let the viewers know or the listeners know a little bit about yourself and how you got into health and wellness. And I know you have element electrolyte company as well. How'd that come about? Yeah, I'll try to keep it concise. But by training, I had an undergrad in biochemistry was looking at either medical school or a research track more in the cancer and auto-immunity realm. And this was 23 years ago in a, it ended up right at that time. 0 (2m 25s): I had had some declining health, but it really hit a pretty gnarly point where I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. And I'm about a hundred sixty, a hundred sixty five pounds right now, if the low ebb of my ulcerative colitis, I was about 120 530 pounds. So if you imagine 30 pounds, less of me, I was in pretty pretty dire straits. You know, and at the time I was eating a low fat vegan oriented diet had attended all of like the Georgia shower, macrobiotic hung out with Dr. McDougall and everything. And I just couldn't make it work for me. 0 (3m 5s): I know for some people they thrive on it and they do great. But for me, what I've found is this kind of lower carb Perry, ketogenic diet just really works super well for me. So in discovering that it really changed my orientation, such that I, I radically, I no longer really wanted to go to medical school because I had this notion that, you know, nutrition, exercise, circadian biology, that was really, you know, the things that folks need to do to, to be healthy and waiting for them to get unhealthy. And then try to dive in front of a freight train. That's going downhill with no breaks, which seems to be where healthcare is just didn't appeal to me. 0 (3m 49s): And it was right, right around that time, 2000, 2001, I was poking around on the interwebs in between running a gas chromatograph samples. And I saw this weird workout online called CrossFit. And I started looking at it. I'm like, man, this is, it seems kind, kinda, kind of interesting and a good friend of mine, Dave Warner, who's a retired Navy seal. He and I started working out in his garage and within about four months we had like 15 people training with us. And we reached out to the Glassman's the folks that founded CrossFit. And we were like, Hey, we want to open a gym. We want to call it CrossFit. Can we do that? And they were the yes, go be achieve. And so that was the first CrossFit affiliate gym called CrossFit north. 0 (4m 32s): And then I had a chance to move back down to Chico, California, where I did my undergrad and opened a CrossFit facility there that was CrossFit nor Cal, that was the fourth affiliate. And so I kind of, I went on to write a couple of New York times bestselling books in the kind of low carb, paleo diet genre, and have done work with Naval special warfare and a bunch of different things like have been very, very fortunate in my career, but it's interesting. I kind of consider myself like the, the, just like the best timing, the best luck, you know, it, it just happened to be at the right place at the right time and also have worked really hard. 0 (5m 15s): But if have been at the beginning of a number of these pretty big trends, like, like CrossFit and the paleo diet and ketogenic diet and whatnot. And so that has largely driven the, the bulk of my career. I've done some work with pretty high level folks, professional athletes, Olympians did some work with Naval special warfare police, military, and fire. But honestly my main passion has been folks with really gnarly health issues. Like my gut issues are much better now than what they were 20 years ago, but I think I've stayed in this fight and stayed interested because I've been the toughest nut I've ever tried to crack. 0 (5m 57s): You know, if I had reached 100%, the health goals that I wanted, I, I think I may have like punched the climate time clock in and been done. So my real passion has been working with folks that, you know, there's a lot of different ways to lose body weight to, to, to, to alter body composition. But when people have really complex gut issues, autoimmune conditions and things like that, there's a very limited number of tools I think that are available particularly within mainstream circles to help those people. And so that has really been my, my passion. And some people get known in the fitness circles for like diamond heart abs or amazing glutes or whatever, but I'm kind of the poop guy, like I'm kind of the poop expert and that that's just been the, the little niche that I've carved out. 0 (6m 46s): Yeah. And you mentioned gut shoes and I coach a lot of like middle-aged males and, you know, I find that's a common theme. You had also colitis, which is maybe explain a little bit about how, you know, how you overcame that and what type of steps did you take to sort of clean up your diet and get, and get that into order? Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny because in theory, I was eating really well. I was eating this whole food based vegan diet. So for many grains soaked sprouted for minute laid UMES, no dairy, no meat, virtually nothing processed. 0 (7m 27s): Oh. And just as an aside also we discovered I have celiac disease too. So I have had that dual thing. So I have this autoimmune, you know, gluten reactivity and it was weird. What, what really precipitated this? I was quite sick and my mom had had health problems, her whole life that I could remember, and that were very gut and auto immune related looking back now, like we didn't realize it until kind of late in the game, but she called me one day and she's like, Hey, I went to my rheumatologist. They figured out that she had Ciliac and she also flagged as being reactive to grains, legumes and dairy. 0 (8m 8s): And I was listening to this and being vegan at the time. I was like, okay, dairy, I get it. You know, dairy has these problems, but I was like grains and legumes. What, what on earth do you eat? If you don't eat grains and legumes, you know? And it was just kind of this free association thing. I got off the phone with her and I was living in Seattle at the time. And I was just kind of thinking I'm like grains, screened legumes. That's like agriculture, neolithic food. And then prior to the neolithic with ASIS thing to paleolithic and back in 1998, this is when this, this all went down. I had heard of a term paleolithic diet, and I've always been kind of interested in evolutionary biology anyway, like as a, as a kid, my dad and I talked about all that stuff a lot. 0 (8m 54s): And so I went into house, turn on my computer, waited for the squirrels in it, to do what they do and then hooked into the dial up and waited for that to happen. And there was a new search engine called Google into Google. I put the term paleolithic diet and there wasn't a ton of material available at the time, but kind of two primary folks, art Devani, who's actually an economist, but who, who did a lot of research in the paleo diet area and then Loren Cordain, who's kind of accredited as being like the, the grandfather of like the paleo diet movement, the little bit of material that they had was interesting. It suggested that there was kind of a double edge sword characteristic to a lot of, of civilization that, you know, it's clearly been good in a lot of ways, but there's some possible downsides in some of the dietary shifts. 0 (9m 44s): Not clearly, not everybody suffers auto-immune conditions or gut issues due to these kind of neolithic foods, but the folks who do oftentimes seem to benefit from this shift towards more of like a paleolithic type diet meat, seafood, fruits, vegetables, roots, chutes, and tubers. And I was thinking about it. I'm like, what if I got to lose? Like my, my, my options at that point were that I was like 27, 28 at the time. And my options were a really drastic surgery, basically cutting out a huge chunk of my digestive tract or immunosuppressant drugs that I would be on the rest of my life. And I knew both of those were pretty terrible option. 0 (10m 27s): And ironically, at the time there were no paleo diet books available. Like this wasn't even a genre. It wasn't even a, a thing. And so I went to the bookstore and was kind of poking around and in the writing online at that time around paleo diet, there was a lot of kind of discussion around low carbs circles and whatnot. And ironically, it was an Atkins book that I picked up. And in reading through the Atkins book, he described a lot of the resolution of gut related issues, GERD like acid reflux and some other inflammatory bowel issues, which he's always kind of when he's not just being outright vilified. If they, if people attribute anything to them, it's just, you know, this idea around weight loss. 0 (11m 9s): But if you look at his original book, he talks a ton about these other potential health benefits, that folks experience from modifying kind of the composition of their diet. And I, my first meal off of veganism was a rack of grassfed beef ribs that are cooked in the oven for like eight hours. And I had a part of a Mellon and I ate all of, pretty much both of them and fell asleep and slept better than I had slept in like three years at that point. And I kinda got up and I was like, wow, there's really something to this. And this is archly bend the way that I've eaten since then, I'll do a little experimenting here and there 10 years ago, there was some excitement around different types of fermentable fiber, which doesn't work for me. 0 (11m 55s): It just turns me into a gas bag and I have to have all kinds of gut cramping and stuff like that. But that was kind of the, the road. I mean, it was honestly just desperation and I couldn't think of any other direction. I could really go like this paleo low carb, paleo diets seemed as hundred and 80 degrees away from, you know, there's this vegan approach that I could get other than both of them were built around mainly minimally processed, whole fruits. Like that's kind of the one, one commonality that I would argue that if, if you're eating a well composed vegan diet or well composed paleo diet, like in theory, they should be minimally processed. Like that probably was the one commonality they have. 0 (12m 36s): Right. Yeah. And so you talk about the paleo diet and then have you transitioned into more of like a keto diet or what, what would you say just for the listener, the differences between the two, you know, the funny thing is I w I've always been the paleo guy that ate low carb, like more or less, you know, so, and, and a lot of the early followers of like just kinda jumping trends. But in my first book, I recommended that people eat adequate protein, and this is a beginning spot start with adequate protein, reduce carbohydrates to about 50 grams or less per day of effective carbohydrate and then kind of eat fat to satiety. 0 (13m 17s): And so I've always kind of been in that, that lower carb, paleo world. And I honestly would love it if I just metabolically did better with a taro when sweet potatoes and more fruit. Like I do some, but, but not a ton because I have these dual problems of kind of blood sugar regulation, but then also gut issues. You know, I think I'm very reactive to FODMAPs. I think some of the solicitate problems. So, you know, like eating nuts is kind of problematic for me because they have a lot of these anti-nutrients that, that cause some significant gut issues for meals. So, so some of the mainstays of low carb eating, I have problems even with that. 0 (14m 1s): And like, if I get a hold of a salad and it's got a bunch of onions in it, like, you don't want me in your house after that, like, it's a, it's an absolute disaster. So even within all this story, I've had to do a lot of tweaking and refining to make things work for myself. But again, I feel like I'm kind of the 0.001%. Like I'm kind of as a big, a pain in the ass to, to deal with dietary restrictions as, as most people are likely to have. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I actually have a client and they have some diverticulitis, they came to me. What do you recommend for clients who have like this inflammation in the gut as a starting point, just to, you know, almost like elimination diet, would you say? 0 (14m 49s): Or what, how would you yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, some form of elimination diet. And I think looking at mountain types of carbohydrate is a good starting place. A lot of people discover that they don't actually do well with a lot of fiber. Some people do great. And, and this is where you have to be flexible in the way that you, you tackle these things, but mountain types of fiber mountain types of, of kind of carbohydrate and, you know, common immunogenic foods, wheat, corn, dairy, for some people like night shades like eggplants and tomatoes can be problematic. 0 (15m 31s): I have no problem with those things, but I know some people have some problems with that. And then it can get really deep, quickly, like there's things like histamine intolerance and, and salicylate issues and whatnot that histamine intolerance is, is can make a person crazy if they figure out that they do well generally on low carb, but things like bone broth and even cooking meat and letting it sit overnight or slow cooking meat really dramatically increases the histamine content. So if you are histamine and intolerant or have histamine issues, you'll find that a lot of the kind of go-to meals within low carb eating ends up potentially being problematic. 0 (16m 16s): So this is again where it, I think that not that many people have those problems, but it's more people than what, what you would honestly realize, but oftentimes what we, what we can do, we start with some sort of a lowish carb, paleo, paleo type diet as a beginning point, and then motor long, hopefully the person feed looks, feels and performs better, like symptoms of gut issues decrease. Then I recommend that they start picking some foods that they want to re-introduce and see how they, they do with that. And it it's a little bit of work, but it's not a mountain of work. And then it at a minimum, sometimes what happens is people will notice that like, they may be able to do wheat, but they can't do it with garlic. 0 (17m 5s): So like they discover that like doing a garlic pizza will crush them or they can do dark garlic only, but not cheese. And so this is where it starts sounding a little bit like astrology or something, you know, it just starts getting a little bit crazy, but, you know, I would say 80% of people moving, just it's somewhat towards a paleo whole food type diet addresses, every problem they have. And they're great. And they figure out kind of an 80 20 position that they can operate within that. But then the remaining 20%, they just have more complex stuff that they have to dig a little deeper, ask a few more questions and stay a little more diligent about what they can and can't do. 0 (17m 47s): Yeah. And you mentioned the nightshades. Those can, those can be an issue for, for, I mean, I don't have an issue with nice shades, but I know that that could be something that could be problematic. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. What would you, I, I mentioned, I was looking at your blog a little bit. You talk about fat. I, I, it's interesting. It's this old school mentality that, that if your cholesterol is high, you shouldn't have red meat. It's like, I keep this reoccurring theme. W w what are your thoughts around cholesterol? And I, and I'm sure, you know, it's context related and stuff, but people who come to me and they're like, oh, I don't, you know, they don't want to have red meat because they're afraid of their cholesterol levels and things like that. 0 (18m 34s): What are your thoughts around that? In the beginning? I really, I detest the basic lipid panel, you know, total cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, cholesterol is a molecule that rides around in something called lipoproteins. So when we say HDL cholesterol, really what we should be saying is HDL particles, the high density, lipoproteins the low density lipoproteins that then carry cholesterol either out from the liver to the body or from the body back to the liver, out from the liver, in the case of LDL lipoproteins from the rest of the body, back to the liver to be reprocessed in the case of HDL. 0 (19m 21s): And so adding in some, some particle testing is really, really helpful. So in addition to the standard lipid panel, looking at something like a LDL particle count just tells us so much about what's what's going on there, and I'm not affiliated with these folks, but I'm good friends with them. There's an outfit called precision health reports that does this advanced testing. And years ago in Reno, I worked as part of the medical risk assessment program. And we looked at, we screened the police and firefighters in Reno, and we found 40 of them that were really high risk for type two diabetes and cardiovascular disease. 0 (20m 3s): This based off some advanced testing that includes the LDL particle count, and then something that you can extrapolate from that called the LPR score, the lipoprotein insulin resistance score. And with this thing, you can find so much more of what's happening and really assign a much more credible risk profile. Because I don't know if folks realize this, but on any given day, a certain number of people have a stroke or a heart attack. And like 40% of the people that have a stroke or a heart attack have what would be considered low normal cholesterol. But when we do this advanced testing, what we oftentimes find is although their cholesterol numbers are their lipid protein numbers are quite high, and this is what's called discordance. 0 (20m 53s): Normally, if you have high cholesterol, you should also probably have high lipoproteins, but it doesn't always happen that way. And people who have shift work, police, military, fire, new parents, medical professionals, oftentimes they get this kind of weird flavor of metabolic syndrome where they look okay, like their triglycerides are not that bad. Their blood glucose isn't that bad, but we start getting this decoupling of the production of their lipoproteins and also their cholesterol. And these are the people that look pretty healthy in, and then ended up suffering a heart attack or a stroke at like age 35 or 40. And so I really like looking at those, those other parameters and the precision health reports, it's only a little bit more expensive than doing a standard lipid panel. 0 (21m 42s): And it gives you a 10 year risk profile for both cardiovascular disease and type two diabetes. And honestly, Dr. Bill Cromwell, who's one of the co-founders that company. You should have that guy on here. Like he is amazing. Like just absolutely amazing if you think I'm talking fast and throwing a lot of technical terms. Like when I talked to bill, I'm like, dude, you've got to go. I'm pretty good at lipidology. And like, bill is just a whole God, a whole other level of, of this stuff. But I think you, you have to look at cholesterol and lipoproteins, it is a factor in this story, but glug blood glucose levels are a factor in this story. 0 (22m 22s): Blood pressure is definitely a huge factor in this story. So a person who is insulin resistant has high blood glucose levels has some hypertension, their risk profile at a given cholesterol or lipoprotein level is very different than somebody who is insulin sensitive and normal or low blood pressure at the same lipoprotein levels. Because we know that, you know, at least a part of the atherogenic processes damage to the endothelium of the, our arterial beds and high blood pressure is one, you know, high blood pressure smoking exposure to toxic substances, like heavy metals and stuff like that. 0 (23m 4s): Those things are really well understood to cause damage to the vascular endothelium and, and it, it can cause problems. So I think that you have to look at all those things in total, but then there's another side to this. There's a part of the low carb camp that is insistent that so long as your insulin levels are low, you get to get out of jail free card with cardiovascular disease. And unfortunately, I don't think that's the case. I, I do think that at some point lipoproteins and cholesterol levels do matter. It, you know, you can mitigate those, those things by, by exercise and, and, you know, doing some other things, but familiar familial hypercholesterolemia is a good example where people have really high cholesterol and lipoprotein numbers, and those folks tend to die young and they die from atherogenic blockage. 0 (24m 1s): There's all kinds of pissing matches back and forth online about like, well, there's this detail in that detail, but there is kind of a reality that when these, these folks who have familial hypercholesterolemia, when they're homozygous, they have both genes for it and their cholesterol, and lipoproteins are very, very high. When these folks go on statins or peace, PCSK nine inhibitors, which I think are really fascinating. They're a different way of lowering cholesterol. And honestly, it makes more sense in my mind to, to go that route to lower cholesterol. But the folks with this familial hypercholesterolemia live much longer when their cholesterol levels are lowered. So it, it, it, again, it will be something that we'll split 20 years from now, or it's probably still going to be debating this stuff, but I'm definitely in this kind of weird spot where I think that cholesterol can't be the only thing that you look at. 0 (24m 56s): Like you can't stick someone on a statin solely based off of cholesterol and lipid protein levels. There's other mitigating factors in, in that whole story. And we should really think about like, if the person is APOE E four for Geno type, and we're putting them on a statin, how much are we increasing their likelihood of neurodegenerative disease? Like, Alzheimer's, you know, there's a trade off there between cardiovascular disease and neurodegenerative disease. And we know that we have that risk factor on both sides of the, of the fence with a APOE four genotype. So I th it it's just let me put it this way. 15 years ago, I thought I had lipoproteins cholesterol, heart disease totally figured out. 0 (25m 39s): And I've learned so much more now than I knew then. And I feel like I don't know a damn thing about any of it. It just, it's just this, I, I, it feels like a massive moving target and just trying to, to mitigate risk profiles, you know, it's like, well, there's this upside and downside something people don't appreciate is that folks with high cholesterol levels tend to have much lower rates of cancer. They tend, if they get very, very sick, like a septic infection, they tend to survive it much better people with low cholesterol levels. If they end up in the hospital with sepsis, like their bowel gets nicked or something, and they go septic low cholesterol, people die from, from infection quite, quite easily. 0 (26m 21s): So in, you know, evolutionary biology, there's trade-offs with all this stuff. So it's a, it's a really complex, you know, ball of wax to try to untangle. So, yeah. So the moral of the story is you PR you know, looking at just standard, you know, lipid tests, isn't enough. You probably want to dig a little bit deeper and you mentioned, yeah. Precision reports. I'm definitely gonna check that out because I've been trying to, and I don't know if you have any other suggestions for certain lab labs to use as a good baseline for, for individuals. I'm actually looking at mine right now, but I would imagine too, that cholesterol plays more of a role in someone, or it could be potentially dangerous in some of that has some inflammation. 0 (27m 5s): We're looking at something like, like a C-reactive protein, be something to look at as well. So w this is, what's kind of neat about the precision health reports, things they do look at at inflammatory markers, but they use something called Blake a, which is a very stable inflammatory marker. The, the challenge with C reactive protein, is it super transitory? Like if you catch a cold, it will go super high. It's a little bit like ferritin. Like if you, you could look like you're low iron, because you're just fighting off a little bit of a cold, but you're really not low iron. You may actually be exceptionally high in iron status. So definitely looking at inflammatory markers is valuable for long time. 0 (27m 50s): C reactive protein was kind of the best thing that we had, but a marker like Gleick EI, which is part of this LPI score. The lipoprotein insulin resistance score is really valuable. And if you do just a little bit of searching LPR score methodology, like it describes where they arrived at this thing, they used data from the nurses' health study from Mesa, from a bunch of different studies to be able to, to get this kind of one-stop shop look at overall metabolic health, both from the inflammatory side, the kind of metabolic signaling side, and then the disease risk side on the back end, mainly cardiovascular and diabetes. 0 (28m 30s): This is great. So I'll have to look into this cause I'm looking for something for, you know, myself, but also my clients. And you're saying this precision health reports does a nice job of giving you a good sort of outlook on a lot of different hormones and things like that. Yeah, it, it doesn't really look at hormones specifically, but it gives you a very good sense of your insulin sensitivity, your insulin resistance, and honestly, anybody doing health coaching, like, and again, I don't have any financial ties to these guys are, they're just good friends of mine. And it's very, it's very similar to the methodology we used at the Reno risk assessment program and something I forgot to mention with that. We, we found these police and firefighters at high risk for type two diabetes and cardiovascular disease, low carb, paleo diet modified their sleep and exercise as best we could that pilot study alone, which ran for two years is estimated to save the city of Reno about $22 million. 0 (29m 25s): And it, it it's, we've been trying to spin this up within different governmental agencies for the last 10 years, but there's been a lot of inertia with it, but it is, it is such a powerful tool. In my opinion, is that the standard lipid profile creates more questions than answers. Like, I don't feel like it answers anything. It just, I wouldn't say don't do it, but every time somebody does do it, I just kind of like, go, go face into my palms. Cause like, okay, here we go. And then inevitably, we just have to start digging into like the, the LPR score, the LDL P like it's really, unless everything just looks absolutely pristine. 0 (30m 9s): Perfect. Every, you know, all the dyes are dotted and T's are crossed and everything. It's like, okay, you look pretty good, but if you have to lease bit of anything squirrely, then it's like, I don't know, you could be discordant or we could have this going on, or we could have that going on. So that LPAR score is just so valuable in my opinion. Yeah, this is good to know. And what about like hormones, like testosterone and things like that? I mean, this is a common question. I get a lot. And are there certain, do they do testing for that or are there certain, and even like thyroid and stuff like that, which it seems to come up as well, precision health does not test for that. And this is something that I really wish I had done a comprehensive hormone panel when I was like 22, because then, oh, good testosterone, estrogen, estradiol, sex, hormone, binding globulin. 0 (31m 1s): Like I would have a profile of what youth looks like for me. And I'm really in the camp that I think that both for men and women conservative, but appropriate, like hormonal replacement is really smart. As we age, there's been a lot of studies suggesting that hormone replacement therapy, particularly in women was, was associated with all these negative outcomes. But when you get in and really look at the data on that, it doesn't really suggest that. And there's a couple of different things, another great person you could have on the show, Dr. Kirk parsley, he's a retired Navy seal who ran the medical concerns for the west coast seal teams for eight years. 0 (31m 48s): He was the dive medical officer. But what he discovered was that the seals, because of basically there's extreme shift work that they would do, they would get deployed. They would do night operations sleep during the day to go to sleep. They would take like six Ambien and sometimes like a fifth of whiskey. And then to wake up, they have their, their go pills, which are basically speed. And these guys would, predeployment have a total testosterone of 1100. Like they were, you know, fire-breathing monsters and they would come back post deployment and they would have a testosterone of 200. And within the bell curve of a normal population, there are people that, you know, within the normal population going into front door of medical clinics, there are people with a testosterone of 200, but just about uniformly, the person with the testosterone of 800 to a thousand has a much better quality of life than the person with a testosterone of 200. 0 (32m 46s): But then, you know, the whole HRT topic is, is crazy because most doctors will give people a, a shot that gives them a bolus of testosterone. That's supposed to last them two weeks, but human humans, both males and females were supposed to have pulsatile release of testosterone every day, once or twice a day, every day, you know? And, and so it's hard to, and get people excited about HRT. And then when they do start talking about it, if you find a doctor that's willing to even do it, because if you go into the doctor and you're like, I feel terrible. I have no sex drive. I'm depressed all the time. 0 (33m 27s): And the doctor runs your, your testosterone. You're 38 years old. You've got a total testosterone of like 3 85. And he's like, you're fine. That, that I, I see that all the time and you're fine. And the person's doughy and they're, they have no like, you know, fire for life. And, and it's just heartbreaking on that front end. But then if, if you're able to like strong arm, the doctor into doing anything, then they give you like one massive dose every two weeks, which I, I there's even all this stuff like a HCG human chorionic gonadotropin, which is used in, in fertility circles that you can do, they will use it in fertility situations with women, because it, it acts like follicle stimulating hormone to, to induce a release of eggs. 0 (34m 17s): But in men it causes leuteinizing hormone effect and you get testosterone release. And there's also things like Clomid, which is used in these fertility circles, which basically blocks the syncing of estrogen in the brain. And so the brain thinks in it, it's interesting. Men don't really make estrogen. They make testosterone. And then when the testosterone interacts with adipose tissue, with fat tissue, there's a hormone called aromatase that converts the testosterone into estrogen. And this is supposed to happen at a certain lockstep. And you, if you don't have adequate estrogen, you won't have a sex drive. You won't have bone mineral density, your hair will fall out. 0 (34m 58s): Like there, there's all kinds of things there, but if you use something like Clomid to block the brain sense of testosterone in the body, it'll say, okay, testosterone's too low. We're not seeing enough estrogen. And then it will turn on the testicles to produce estrogen. So that's a whole other side to this story that there are some really cool, safe, and massively utilized tools like HCG and Clomid that can help turn on the, the endogenous testosterone production. And I'd been using Clomid for six years now, seven years now. And it takes me from kind of a baseline normally where it was, was like high threes, low fours, too, like high sevens, low eight, my, my total testosterone. 0 (35m 46s): I feel great with that. And I will probably run that until that fails. And then we'll probably look at some sort of a low dose injectable testosterone at some point, because I, my life is way better with, you know, testosterone levels in like seven and eight hundreds than it was when I was in the three and four hundreds. And I had a, I had had a couple of traumatic brain injuries and a few other things, the auto-immune stuff I've dealt with, all of those kind of correlate with antagonizing testosterone production. And so whatever the mechanism was, I just went for the lowest intervention. Like, I guess I could go on like a gram of testosterone a week and try to compete in the Olympia or something, but I'm really hoping to live a long time. 0 (36m 32s): And I want to, like, I want to use the minimum deal here and just slowly start bringing that stuff out as, as one intervention fails and I'll get a little bit more aggressive on the next level. Interesting. Yeah. Clomid now this is something you get from friction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, it's, it's tooth and nail to get that out of most doctors. Usually if you seek out a functional medicine doctor or some of these anti-aging clinics, the bummer about most of the anti-aging clinics, they're shockingly expensive. And again, the folks are not all that sophisticated. Like I am not a doctor, but I will make this statement in . 0 (37m 15s): I tend to know 90% more about this topic than most of the doctors that run these HRT clinics. When you start talking about Clomid and HCG, or doing like subdermal microdosing of testosterone in lieu of like a cause what happens when you take a massive single dose of testosterone, you get a huge spike you're super physiological, which can make people feel like, like garbage it and the risk profile, blood clots, prostate issues, hair loss, like all of that is greater at super physiological levels. And then as it falls, you get this window of like three days where you're at like a good testosterone level. And then you've got the remaining, maybe last third that you're below where you would like to be. 0 (37m 59s): So you have the whole experience you end up with maybe three days of the two weeks that you're kind of in a decent testosterone level. Yeah. Before you got on start using Clomid, did you try other interventions that were perhaps like, you know, sometimes like enhance your sleep or things like, you know, things that are maybe, yeah, I'm pretty neurotic on that stuff. And like, I was pretty buttoned up on circadian rhythm and, and, you know, diet, and this is where it it's a funny feedback loop. My sleep is much, much better on the Clomid and at the higher testosterone levels than what it was before. 0 (38m 40s): So this is where kind of a holistic approach comes into this. And this is also, you know, the, the flip side of this, if, if somebody is pretty overweight and, and a low testosterone, just sticking them on top testosterone is probably not the first line answer. Like some sort of a low carb type diet is probably pretty valuable to start with, because again, their body may be producing enough testosterone, but because they're carrying excess fat mass that is getting turned into estrogen. And the ironic thing is that if you put the pur that, that overweight male on testosterone, their estrogen levels go up and their endogenous testosterone production drops. 0 (39m 23s): And so you're just kind of screwing them even more. And that is where using some things like aromatase inhibitors to prevent it. And I, sorry, I hadn't anticipated like going down the rabbit hole of like some of this endocrinology stuff, but this is again where a smart like lifestyle doctor, they're looking at a male that maybe was athletic in the past, but he's working real hard. He's got, you know, all kinds of stress. He's carrying a lot of, you know, fat around the midsection. So like that visceral adiposity and everything, he's complaining of symptoms that are consistent with low testosterone, but you're like, man, the guy's only like 35, if they did a little bit of a remedy X, like a half a milligram of a twice a week, which this is an aromatase inhibitor and get them on a low carb diet and start improving their sleep hygiene, you might double or triple that guy's testosterone level, because as he loses body fat and you prevent the conversion of testosterone into estrogen, you start turning on the normal productivity cycles. 0 (40m 29s): And so to get back to your original question originally, I tried some low dose or Residex didn't really work for me. That's definitely is that prescription it's all prescription. Yeah. Everything that works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will say that tribulus though, like, just from like a libido standpoint, like it really doesn't modify testosterone, but it does have some interesting effects. The pharmacology, I understand on dopamine action in the brain. And so just, just from that, that like tripling a little bit more. Yeah. Tribulus lifting weights and kind of getting that, you know, feeling good about lifting weights and then just kind of basic libido deal. 0 (41m 12s): I personally have found tribulus to be helpful for just kind of a quality of life and, you know, being a little more, more focused non-point, but it definitely doesn't act on testosterone, but it does seem to do some of the cool things with dopamine that we used to experience when we were, when we were young. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don't mind going this a little bit. Cause I think it's, it's it comes up like, for example, for me, I got blood work and you know, my testosterone was around like around 600. I don't consider that too low, but I guess, you know, you don't want to be too high, but I could definitely have some room and I'm, I'm a fairly, obviously healthy guy and eat plenty of, I, I would say keto ish carnivores. 0 (41m 60s): So anyways, I was just curious and how old are you? I'm 41. You're 41. So that could be something where like, if you, you know, if you wanted to tinker with things, trying something like a low dose Clomid or, or something like that to just see, does it bump it up? If it does, do you notice any difference? You're like, man, yeah. I feel pretty good. And like my, my, my gym numbers are a little bit better and, and all that type of stuff. Like I think he started hitting that, that forties level, but 600 is still a good number, but like, would you feel better at seven or 800? You know, but that, I think that that's just, this stuff is kind of underappreciated. 0 (42m 41s): It is definitely out there. And it's a really, unlike going on testosterone replacement therapy like this isn't going to down-regulate your endogenous production. The only, the only effect it would have it either not do anything or it might, it might boost your, your endogenous production. I think like 1% of people get some unfavorable vision change when they use Colombia. So like anything there's, there's not, you know, there are some, some downside risks associated with it and yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's good to know. I mean, cause you know, I consider myself a pretty healthy individual, but you know, you never know is sometimes testosterone, could that be, is can it be a genetic thing too or, or there's definitely a familial linkage to that. 0 (43m 29s): And this is so different families definitely there's there's higher and lower testosterone levels. There was a fair amount of discussion about that around this last Olympics, because there were a few, there was a female athlete that, that had a testosterone and this completely natural, but she had testosterone levels that would be at the low end for males. And there was a bunch of hoopla around that. It's like, she's got this genetic polymorphism and that's just where she is and she, she can, she can get down and run, you know, she's fast Twitch and she's got this kind of, kind of testosterone advantage. So there are different families that, that have different levels. And this is something Kirk parsley, Dr. Parsley can speak to better than I can, but he's looked at research, looking at testosterone levels of our generation, previous generation in generation before that. 0 (44m 19s): And like our grandparents generation on average it at virtually any age had a testosterone level that was two to three times higher than what we do on average today. So that's another thing that's just kind of interesting, you know, when nobody quite knows what the deal is like, is it because we're inside sunlight is, is a factor in testosterone levels. So it, it, because we work inside so much, is it because of Xeno estrogens? Is it because of the hallmark channel? Like I, I don't know what the, you know, what the driver is on, on all that stuff, but it, it's, it's a thing that, you know, it's a data point. Like I don't exactly know what to take from that, but a hundred gatherers tend to have higher and pre agricultural societies tend to have significantly higher testosterone levels at any given age that you want to compare to Westerners. 0 (45m 13s): And then 50, 75 years ago, you know, males in particular had higher testosterone levels it again at any given age that you wanted to compare it to. Interesting. I feel like we could talk about this for a long time. Well, I'll shift a little bit, let's talk like protein, M tour, things like that. I'm always interested in it. And the types of protein that you like. I actually had Dr. John Jake, he actually about a week ago with, I don't know if you're familiar with the X three bar. Yep. Yeah. He, he, he sort of, sort of poo-poos whey protein as a good source of protein. 0 (45m 57s): He uses a, this, he has a product it's a fermented fermented protein, but I'm just curious your thoughts around protein. I know, obviously as you're aging, it's even more important because you don't absorb as much as it, as much of it as you do as, as when you're younger. So anyways, I'm just curious to know about your thoughts, about how much protein and which types would be recommended. Do you think I I'm definitely on the higher protein side and I know within different camps, like the fasting camps, the anti-ageing camps, vegan, the really afraid of protein and M tour. I think that what they're missing in that story is when they look at the deleterious effects of IGF and mentor, it is always in the context of an overfed organism like lab animals are, are by definition they're overfed. 0 (46m 52s): And Peter T had just had a really phenomenal podcast where he talked to a, a aging expert. It was kind of cool because probably the past five years, I've been super skeptical of like the amount of fasting people are doing and the protein restriction. I think that, that it's just gone crazy. And what, what people are missing is that if you overeat anything, you know, across the board, if you're overeating calories, it's terrible for health, but then once you get people to a spot where they're relatively lean relatively muscular, and they figure out some dietary strategy where they're not overtly overeating, I don't know how much benefit or if any benefit there is to, to fasting beyond that, that point. 0 (47m 35s): I did talk at the beginning of 2020 called longevity, are we trying too hard? And I really dug deeply into this stuff. And I think folks can, can find that it's available somewhere on the interwebs, where, where I dig into this stuff, but I knew on YouTube. Yeah. It, I don't, it might be on YouTube. I'm not exactly sure where it is. Like my team put it up somewhere and I'm not even entirely sure where, where it is, but it's, it's, it's pretty good. And as, as time goes on, I think it's getting kind of more and more validated. Some folks like it, CEO who have been very kind of pro fasting have really pumped the brakes on the amount and volume and intensity of fasting that they've been doing. 0 (48m 19s): And when we look at aging populations in particular, one of the primary characteristics that we see of somebody that, that really lives longer and better is protein intake and an adequate protein intake. I don't think there's anything that people are going to do to live, to be 150 years old. I think that's a fool's errand. Like there might be some genetic switch that gets flipped pharmacologically or genetically, but all of the calorie restriction research, all of the fasting research, it shows all these shocking benefits. In my opinion, all that it is showing is that overeating is really bad and not overeating is good. 0 (49m 5s): And again, this peer retia podcast and he just did really lays that out. And I, I think it was a job dropper for a lot of people. But back to your question, like, I, I feel like a good bracketing on protein is a gram of protein per pound of lean body mass all the way up to a gram of protein per pound of body weight. So if you have a 200 pound person and they're there 10% body fat, they might eat as low as 180 grams of protein per day. And it's high as 120 or 200 grams of protein per day. And it doesn't have to be that every single day, you know, but I think that that's a pretty good window to exist in. 0 (49m 46s): I like time restricted eating, but I think people push that too, too hard. I'm kind of a crazy guy that I think two meals and a snack, or maybe even breakfast lunch dinner might be pretty darn good. But you know, trying to compress that a little bit earlier in the day makes a ton of sense to me. I'm trying to think of any other of the big yeah. And your typical is that your typical routine is two meals a day. Like what, what are your fasting and feasting windows? Yeah, it's a little variable because of how I, my daughters are seven and nine years old. So like, and we homeschool, which I'm super fortunate to do that, but it's like, I generally want to sit down and have meals with them. 0 (50m 31s): If, if my ideal circumstance was here, like if our kids were grown and out of the house, I would eat a really big breakfast somewhere around like 9:00 AM. I would do jujitsu or strength training around noon. And then I would do a based off of the volume and intensity of training that I did at that session. I would either have a huge, you know, late lunch, early dinner, around three o'clock, maybe four o'clock at the latest, or if it was a pretty sedentary day, I would have a smaller meal. And then it would be done because of having kids, usually a pretty good sized breakfast around eight or 9:00 AM. We do jujitsu around noon. I usually do a little bit of a light snack for lunch. 0 (51m 13s): It might just be like some salami and cheese, but again, I'm just sitting down and hanging out with them. And then again, based off of the, the, you know, what we did that day and because we live so far north now, like the, the days go really late. And so reading dinner, maybe six o'clock sometimes, but then closer to the winter, it may be earlier. But now that the girls are doing swimming and piano and jujitsu, some of their programs don't get done until five o'clock. So it just forces a little bit of a later bedtime than what I would ideally want, but that that's kind of what I wrap into, but I definitely don't, you know, I try to get dinner as early as I can. 0 (51m 55s): And some days that, that may be like four o'clock, like if my wife takes the kids to the gym and I kind of cheat a little bit and I eat my dinner mainly, and then just sit down and hang out with them, then I may finish dinner, like four o'clock and then I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. There's something to be said about eating, eating when it's light out. Right. And not, you know, not eating too close to bedtime, you know? Yeah. Why don't we talk a little bit about the electrolyte company that you have. I'm just curious. I think, I think it's important for people to understand the importance. I think there's this also this misnomer around all salts, bad for you and, and maybe talk about the productive, protective properties that it can have and, and what it can do for people on a daily basis just for quality of life. 0 (52m 45s): Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting. Salt definitely got wrapped up into, well, how do I want to couch this? There's not many topics on the interwebs that you can throw out without creating a fistfight. You know, it's just like a, everything's a drama Fest and everything suggesting that that processed foods are probably not a great option is, is a fairly uncontroversial thing. Like some people will push back and they're like, well, if it fits your macros and you can weigh and measure it, I'm like fine, fine. Most people can't do that. But if it works for you, that that's great. But generally processed foods are recognized to be problematic. The place that people generally get sodium in their diet is from processed foods. 0 (53m 29s): And an interesting thing that happens when people clean up their diet. And this is true, whether they do a vegan diet or Mediterranean diet or paleo or whatever, virtually all of their dietary sodium sources disappear, like unless you're doing some sort of macrobiotic deal where you're doing a bunch of miso soup, that there is actually sodium, rich, like most of the sodium goes away. And what we ended up finding there is that folks probably are then under consuming sodium relative to their, their needs. And there, there was a fascinating study that was done, not, not too long ago, that looked at all cause mortality in type two diabetic heart patients. 0 (54m 10s): And it was looking at sodium consumption and you know, what, they got sick from if they died and what emerged was a U curve. And at very low intake of sodium morbidity and mortality, mortality was very, very high. And this was at less than two grams of sodium intake per day, which is what we are told to consume. And then at about five grams of sodium intake per day, all cause more morbidity mortality was at its lowest. And then it did start going up on the right-hand side. But what was interesting about that is you had to get to about eight to 10 grams of sodium per day to have the same morbidity mortality as two grams per day. 0 (54m 50s): And again, this is within an otherwise pretty unhealthy, pretty sick population. And so that's kind of one benchmark to look at. And then when we start looking at the athletic benchmarking, the American council of sports medicine, the ACS, em, they recommend that folks that are high motor output, like a significant amount of physical activity, hot, humid environment, high altitude, all of these things can deplete sodium and water stores. They recommend as a starting place, seven to 10 grams of sodium per day for athletes, which is like five, you know, four to five times what the, the standard medical advice is. 0 (55m 31s): And so this is kind of the, the world, or kind of the bracketing that I see as being pretty favorable for electrolyte status. And it's just unfortunate that somewhere along the line, sodium guy swept up with the, the process food story and, you know, someone who's insulin resistant type two diabetic overeating, should they take something like element which provides a gram of sodium? No, but what that person should do is clean up their diet, eat a minimally processed, you know, dietary regimen. And then they're probably in a situation where they, they will need to, to up their sodium. And there's tons of great ways to do it. 0 (56m 13s): Like 10 olives provides a gram of sodium. Two ounces of, of salami provides almost two, two grams of sodium. And so there's all these great dietary sources that oftentimes people will avoid because they're worried about the, the sodium intake, but, you know, it's the Genesis story of this, this whole company with element was that I was struggling with my Brazilian jujitsu and eating a low carb diet. And my, my friends coaches at that time, Tyler Cartwright and Louise Phillips and your, that the founders of the keto gains kind of platform, they looked at what I was doing. And they were like the protein carbs, fat looked fine, but you're really deficient in sodium. 0 (56m 55s): And I was like, oh man, I salt my food. I'm good. And it was about a year later of still pissing and moaning about like my suboptimal performance and shoddy recovery and everything that they were like, no, man, really like here, do this weigh and measure all your food, including what, what soap sodium you add to things, put it in chronometer and then we can see what you have. And I was getting less than two grams of sodium per day. So I upped my sodium intake to five grams a day. And it was like a light switch was flipped. It was just magic eyes. You know, all these problems that I had, like kind of sleep issues, a little bit of elevated heart rate, all this stuff just completely resolved. And we, we initially put together, we knew that it was really important for our communities to get this electrolyte story, this sodium story, right? 0 (57m 44s): So we put together a Homebrew cutaway guide, or you do this much sodium chloride, this much potassium chloride from no salt, a little bit of magnesium citrate, lemon juice, Stevia, shake it up and go. And we had this, a downloadable guide and within six months we had like half a million downloads on it. Like it was really popular. People were raving about it, but then they started mentioning that as great as the keto Wade was, every time they went through TSA, the three bags of white powder were causing a problem. And so, you know, Hey, could you guys do some sort of like a sticker pack deal? Yeah. And that was really like, we didn't launch into this thing with this idea that we were going to become salt mobiles. 0 (58m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. That was the first one. And that first flavor of the citrus, I wasn't, I suspected that it would go well, like I suspected if we address this electrolyte need that it would go pretty well, but I wasn't sure. And so our first suite of flavors were oriented so that if the company tanked as an electrolyte option, it would be awesome as a margarita or mixed space. And we talked a little bit about that, about like the mango chili and the lemon habanero and all that stuff. Yeah. And yeah, I've been, I've been using it. It, it, you definitely want to make sure you have enough water with it. I actually find that I sometimes, so one packet is one gram yeah. 0 (59m 8s): Of sodium. Yeah. 200 milligrams potassium and 60 of, of magnesium. Yeah. Okay. And now I know that like not all salt is equal, right? Like depends on the source of it and like that. Where do you guys source it from? I am not in that camp. We just use standard sodium chloride. There is nothing magical about our salt. I, we considered spinning up a mystical story of sourcing from some Pakistani mine that, that it was the, the tiers of, of Tibetan Lama just said it filled this thing and it had magical properties to it. 0 (59m 51s): But we actually really wanted to, if we're claiming a thousand, you know, one gram of sodium on the package, we wanted to actually be kind of pharmaceutical in nature. And so, I mean, it it's sourced in the United States out of, out of Utah, but we make no magical claims about our salt or sodium. The only magic with element is that I think it tastes really good and it's quite convenient, but there, you know, we still have our downloadable guide online. Like if somebody doesn't want to buy the stuff, the main, and in that guide, we mentioned all of these great food sources to get your sodium potassium magnesium address. So our main goal is to just help through hydration, just be aware that if you were better hydrated, which hydration and a textbook of medical physiology doesn't mean water, it means water and electrolytes. 0 (1h 0m 44s): And somewhere along the line, the, the electrolytes were dropped. So I, I may have been a buzzkill, but I am definitely not in the mystical sole source camp. Yeah, yeah. Right. Cause just, just drinking water that won't won't necessarily get you hydrated per se. Right? It is. You can end up in a state of hyponatremia where your sodium levels are low enough to hospitalize your even Cod staff. And so this is where, you know, if you're in it, it's interesting, like a lot of traditional foods like kimchi and sauerkraut and stuff like that are really very salty. And so I think a lot of traditional food methodologies provided a significant amount of sodium and then people would sit on some coffee or tea or water and it ends up kind of balancing out. 0 (1h 1m 32s): But if you pull all of these traditional salt sources out of the diet, and you're told to consume eight, eight ounce glasses of water per day, I think a lot of what people experience with regards to like foggy headedness, lethargy, fatigue, cramping, it's actually because they're over consuming water ironically, and, and which sounds crazy, but it's just a walking back within the, the medical circles of the eight, eight ounce water recommendation, you know, a couple of months back basically saying that there's really no good science for it. And it may actually be causing problems due to inducing this hyponatremic state, the low sodium state crazy. 0 (1h 2m 15s): The one thing that the health guidelines thought they got right about drinking water now. No, it doesn't look as, as cheery is what it was. Yeah. Yeah. Who do we believe? Right. All right. Very interesting. This is great stuff. I feel like I, we could talk for another hour. I would say a common question. I ask a lot of guests when they come on is if they had to give one tip to like a middle-aged individual, 40, 50 years old, and they wanted to get their self back to where they were maybe 10, 15 years ago, get their body back to what it once was. 0 (1h 2m 55s): What, what, what kind of tip would you give them sleep more like it's. So if I, so if I was able to go back 20 years and reorient my whole career, I would make it all about sleep first because this paleo diet thing or low carb diet thing, it's a religious war. Like people are religious about dietary stuff. And although convincing people that sleep is important, like particularly if you work with like some type a corporate exacts, like hard chargers, like, oh, I'll sleep when I'm dead and all this stuff, but it's really easy to show how misguided that, that, that thinking is like a couple of days of miss sleep and the person is functioning. 0 (1h 3m 40s): Like they've got a blood alcohol level of like port 0.1 and stuff like that. Like, it's, it's pretty easy to, to unpack all that. So would I, if I could redo my whole career, I would be the sleep guy, not the, not the paleo guy, but then every single thing that you do is oriented towards, do you get better or worse sleep if you're eating a shit diet and you have blood sugar dysregulation, it's going to negatively affect your sleep. Okay. So we've got to clean up your diet. So we do some dietary cleaning up. Well, I want to be vegan. Okay. Let's tinker with that. Well, your sleep is still pouring. We have cool things like HRV platforms and aura rings to really get deep on that. And it's like, man, you're experiencing a lot of hypoglycemia. 0 (1h 4m 22s): I think we need to reduce your carbohydrate intake. And if it does, it will improve your sleep. And then you get to you, you know, you don't get to argue about this. So we could back into everything from a sleep perspective. Well, you should lift some weights and do a little bit of cardio because a little improve your sleep. And we could validate that. So like the, if I had it all to do over, I would orient everything towards that, that sleep angle. And, and even currently, like, if people are waffling on a dietary change, beginning exercise, should they spend more time outside? If, and when it's a scenario that improves your sleep, then it's good. Like it is, it is guaranteed to be good for you. 0 (1h 5m 3s): So I would say sleep. And is that everything that you do, if you could think about how is it going to negatively or positively impact your sleep that is going to be the greatest return on investment you could possibly get. And if folks don't believe me, just stay up all night tonight and get up tomorrow and talk to me about how functional you are, how strong are you, how good is your cardio, how fast and witty are you, how wonderful of a husband or, or father are you when you're horribly sleep deprived and all that pushback and bullshit kind of goes out the window then. Yeah, I, it's interesting. And I'm not surprised that you bring up sleep. 0 (1h 5m 44s): Is there, is there anything else other than lifestyle changes that you would recommend? I mean, melatonin or like, you know, magnesium or something that perhaps could aid as well? Yeah. Kirk parsley. I mentioned Kirk parsley, Davey seal doctor, he in his work with the seal teams, he spun up a product called doc parsley, sleep remedy, and it has the melatonin and trip to fan really low dose of melatonin though. It's a 200 micrograms. So it it's a tiny amount. It's about the amount that you would release throughout a normal sleep cycle. 0 (1h 6m 25s): So he's trying to not down-regulate the melatonin production, but then he also provides some five hydroxy tripped fan and some trip to fan in it. So that you've got some raw material that's going through the blood brain barrier, they're helping to induce sleep. It has so melatonin induces sleep, the GABA pathways maintain sleep. Magnesium is critical to that process. Vitamin D is critical to that process. And my kids, the sleep remedy product is amazing. Not everything works for, for all folks. Like some people fall asleep immediately, but they have a problem staying asleep. And so they have to focus more on like that GABAA pathway. And this is also why alcohol is so negative for, for sleep and sleep quality. 0 (1h 7m 11s): People usually fall asleep initially. And then they wake up middle of the night because alcohol is acting in the GABAergic pathways. So, you know, doc Parsley's sleep remedy again. No, no financial ties to that, but good, good option. And then from there, you know what I think, I think my team just released like a sleep hygiene checklist that I had put together. I was doing some work for the Chickasaw nation and we put together something for their, their employees, and then we released it more broadly, but it's, you know, dark room, cold environment being really, really consistent with what you do. Like the whole sleep hygiene processes is a really powerful tool for getting on top of all that. 0 (1h 7m 58s): Yeah. I'm a big, yeah. I'm a big routine guy. And I always talk about having a sleep routine and a morning routine. Yeah. They all go hand in hand. Yep. Yep. Well, this was great, Rob. I almost feel like this that maybe we'll do a part two down the road. If you'd be up for that, that'd be I'm game to bring down property values any, any time. So you want me back? I will, I will come do it for sure. Yeah. I would love that. And this was a lot of great information, so yeah. I appreciate you coming on the show. Huge honor. Thank you. Hey, get lean equally nation. Are you a man between the ages of 40 and 60 years old looking to lose inches around your waist have significantly more energy throughout the day and gain muscle all while minimizing the risk of injuries? 0 (1h 8m 46s): Well, I'm looking for three to five people to work one-on-one with in my fat burner blueprint signature program, which I've developed by utilizing my 15 years experience in the health and fitness space. This program is designed specifically for those committed, to making serious progress towards their health goals. Over the next six months, we will focus on sleep stress, nutrition, meal, timing, and building lean muscle. If this sounds like a fit for you, email me@brianatbriangrin.com with the subject line blueprint. That's brian@briangrin.com with the subject line blueprint. 1 (1h 9m 29s): Thanks for listening to the get lean eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Robb Wolf

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