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episode #26

Interview with Dr. Terri Lance – How to start and break a fast, Difference between calorie restriction and fasting, and Overcoming Hunger

May 13, 2021 in Podcast


In my interview with Dr. Terri Lance, who is a coach at The Fasting Method, we discussed how she lost 85lbs and reversed type II diabetes through low carb and fasting.

0 (1s): Coming up on the get lean, eat clean podcast. 1 (4s): It's also about changing out habits. So a lot of people are used to snacking at night, and I'm kind of a stickler on that. I often say there's no such thing as healthy snacking. Even if you're telling me it's healthy food, right. Having additional an additional eating time is not healthy for us. So at that time I like flavored tea. I might go get a flavor tea to help myself break that habit. So I do still get something, you know, something warm to sit with a little bit of comfort without any impact on my health. 0 (41s): Hello, and welcome to the get clean, eat clean podcast. I'm Brian grin. And I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was five, 10, even 15 years ago each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Dr. Tieri Lance. She's a coach at the fasting method and we discussed how she lost 85 pounds and reversed type two diabetes through low carb and fasting. We also talk in detail about how foods affect your blood sugar, how to start with fasting, how to deal with hunger, who shouldn't fast, the differences between men and women with fasting, how to conquer the whole mental game of fasting and overeating and how to break a fast. 0 (1m 29s): So there's a lot of great detail regarding making fasting lifestyle. I really enjoyed my interview with Dr. Terry, and I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the interview. All right. Welcome to the get lean eat clean podcast. And my name is Brian grin. My guest today is Dr. Terry Lance with she's a coach at the fasting method, and I'm excited to have her on welcome to the show. 1 (1m 53s): Thank you. Thank you, Brian. So good to be here. 0 (1m 56s): Yeah, it's nice to have a fellow faster on, and we can talk about all things fasting and get a little bit into a low carb and things like that. So before we get into that, why don't you just tell the audience, maybe your journey into health and then how you sort of became a coach with the fasting method as well? 1 (2m 14s): Sure. So I would say my journey, most of my life has been very unhealthy and it wasn't until I was in my forties before I really realized I needed to do something more proactive about my health. So I was overweight as a child obese. Most of the time I was active. I played some sports in high school and things, but I was, I was always overweight in my early thirties. I was diagnosed with type two diabetes and I was stubborn and naive and I thought, Oh, I'm just going to keep eating whatever I want. I'll just take whatever medication the doctor gives me. And by the time I get old and have any consequences of this, they'll have figured it out 12th that didn't prove to be true. 1 (3m 2s): So I continued to not do well with all of the medications. My diabetes was not well-managed and my weight was not well managed. So in 2014, I started with a whole 30 and I knew for myself, I was going to need something a little more than 30 days of a kind of clean start. Right. Because a lot of my issues were about my relationship with food. And so I actually did a whole 100. And then at the end of the hundred, I just started adding back in some things I didn't go back to the way I was eating before. So at that point I ate very paleo for a few years. 1 (3m 44s): And then I found that my blood sugars were rising again. And so I needed to do even lower carb. So I started eating more ketogenically and that's when I started to learn about fasting. And then professionally, my background is I was, I started out my career as a middle school English teacher. So that one that everyone seems to like to complain about, but I was a teacher. And then I went back to school and became a psychologist. And I was, have been in private practice for about 15 years. And when I started really focusing on my health, I started working with the two keto dudes and was a moderator on their Facebook group and everything. 1 (4m 26s): And so through that, I went to low carb Breckenridge at the time and got to meet Megan Ramos and watched her and the two keto dudes record a podcast episode. So I was a bit fan girling at there watching all of them. And then we just started talking from there and she said, you know, at some point like to have you join our team and kind of transitioned out of my private practice and transitioned into coaching with the fasting methods. 0 (4m 56s): Oh yeah. That's, that's a great journey. And you know, I'm, I'm glad you're on because I know with the fasting method, it's Megan Ramos. And then Dr. Jason Fung obviously is, is a big, he's a backer of that, right? He started that. Have you had interactions with him? Is he pretty like to see involved with that whole process? 1 (5m 20s): He's involved with the decision-making about kind of he and Megan kind of run the company, but she is the main person that we as coaches interact with. So I have gotten some interactions with him, but most of my interactions are with Megan and the rest of the coaching team. 0 (5m 39s): And with your journey, you were a type two diabetic and now you're are your numbers back to normal? Everything's 1 (5m 48s): I was able when I was first diagnosed diabetic, if you know much about it, I, I, my A1C was 13.1. So I was messing around. I was as a diabetic as they come. And after, you know, years of being on medications, I think the best I ever got it down to was like 6.5, maybe seven. And then through eating really low carb and doing fasting, I was able to get it down to 5.3. So the power of what we eat and how often we eat can do amazing things for glucose control 0 (6m 27s): And, you know, not everyone believes that fasting and things like that. Like you said, your, your initial protocol with type two diabetes was just some medication. Is that, is that typical? Do most doctors prescribed that protocol? And what was that compared obviously, compared to what you do with your individuals? 1 (6m 47s): You know, I don't interact a lot with many healthcare providers at this point, but you know, many of our clients talk about their experiences. I was basically just put on medication and my doctor at the time wanted to start me on insulin right away. And that just sounded kind of ominous. And so I knew I didn't want to start there. So I just took a whole bunch of other pills, but I think what I, I wish I knew then what I know now, and that type two diabetes really is so much a lifestyle, a disease of lifestyle. And if I had learned how to eat differently, without it just meaning don't eat, you know, eat low fat, all these things. 1 (7m 33s): If I had known, then what I know now I could have reversed it years and years ago. So most people who come to us who are working on either a pre-diabetic or already are diabetic, the only caution really I would say is to make sure if they are on any medications that also lower glucose, that they do need to work with their doctors to adjust that we can adjust that for them, but fasting is safe. And we even have some type one folks who fast with us, they do a little bit shorter, fast, but as long as they're managing the medication component with their doctor, fasting can be very effective. 1 (8m 16s): And we, you know, we see many people change their diabetes status and obviously through their work in the clinic, Dr. Fong and Megan have worked with many, many people who have changed the course of that disease. 0 (8m 33s): Yeah. I mean, it's great that you're sharing your story because I think a lot of people can learn from that. And actually, I, one of my clients, cause I work with, you know, I do some health coaching. She actually introduced me to fasting. This was, you know, probably five, seven years ago. And she was pre-diabetic and I think she tried like everything, nothing really worked. She just about fasting, obviously just from her own like research and started doing fast and got up, got all our numbers back to normal on her own. And I was like, so blown away with her progress and what she did that sort of like intrigued me and I wanted to learn about it. 0 (9m 13s): So I started doing it myself for different reasons, per se, but more just to learn about it before I actually talk to people about it, about intermittent fasting. And I started, you know, I'm 40, I started to have, you know, I'm hot, I've been pretty healthy for a while and eating clean. But like, you know, as you get older, it's more difficult to get results that you want, whether it's either physically or mentally, cause I've actually found greater benefits, more probably on the mental side for me. And yeah, it sort of changed my perspective on eating and hunger. And so it's amazing what you can learn from your clients. Right? Absolutely. 1 (9m 49s): Absolutely. 0 (9m 51s): So I know you mentioned you changed your eating, you went to, instead of whole 30 did whole hundred and you were doing paleo for a little while, but you weren't quite where you wanted to be. Maybe explain to the audience the difference between like a paleo type of eating and then like a keto low carb. 1 (10m 7s): Sure. Sometimes I wish we didn't have any of these labels because I think people get so siloed into one approach to me, I think of paleo, as you know, it's eating ancestrally, what our ancestors ate and it involved certain things that we didn't eat at that time. So like it was no dairy, no grains, no legumes. And when I was doing paleo, I think the most important thing for me, excuse me, is it was whole food. It was not a lot of processed foods. It was not making treats and things. 1 (10m 47s): And then as I got into it further, when I started adding certain things back in, they were things like eating more fruit and eating like using maple syrup or, you know, coconut sugar. So I was using natural sweeteners, but for someone who is diabetic, that was still too much sugar for my body, too many carbohydrates. So when I think of ketogenic or just low carb, I still believe in the paleo principles of the, you know, whole food as much as possible. Right. But for me, I eat the lower carb end of that. So I don't eat fruit. I had a pair the other day and my blood sugar jumped so high, but you know, I might eat some berries here and there as, as my only real fruit that I eat on a regular basis. 1 (11m 38s): I don't use maple syrup or honey or any of those higher glycemic sweeteners. So again, I think you can call what you do, whatever, whether you call it paleo or call it or call it keto or just low carb, high fat. But to me, it's about figuring out for most of us. I think the more whole food that we eat the better and then figuring out what your needs and tolerance tolerances are for how much protein do you need, how much fat works well for your body and you know, how many carbs does your body tolerate? 1 (12m 21s): Well, and what's your kind of turn or breaking point where it's too many carbs for your body, 0 (12m 27s): Right? I mean, you bring up a good point regarding carbs, right? Because everyone's a little bit different. Some people are more metabolically flexible and they can handle carbs better and more efficiently, like you said, this was an issue because you saw spikes and you're not, not that there's anything necessarily wrong with having spikes in insulin and blood sugar, as long as it comes back to the baseline. Right. 1 (12m 51s): And for me now to have a spike like that is less concerning than when I was eating that kind of thing all of the time when I was highly insulin resistant, because that was just taxing that system too much. Yeah. But you know, within the clients that I work with, people have a real range of variants of what they can, again, kind of tolerate as far as carbohydrates, some eat a, you know, 75, 85 carbs a day and do really well actually still stay in ketosis quite a bit and lose weight or don't gain weight. Whereas others struggle if they go beyond 25 or 30 carbs. 1 (13m 32s): So I think it really varies in what type of carbs they are. I think also berries. 0 (13m 38s): Yes. Completely agree. The type of car, you know, you talked about low and high-glycemic maybe explain to the audience the difference between the two it's something we've, I've talked about in the past. But yeah, I'd be curious to hear your explanation regarding that. 1 (13m 51s): I am, my background was as an English teacher. So I always joke that, you know, we're talking science with an English teacher here, but the way I look at it is, you know, certain foods are, are, we have a higher response to the amount of glucose in them. And so for me, for example, now I will eat potatoes. Whereas in the past I wouldn't have my body responds well to those. I don't get a high spike and it only lasts for a little while. Whereas if I were to eat a donut, it's going to spike high and it's going to stay high longer. And so I'm kind of just thinking about the glycemic index, really, if I'm, if I can explain it very simply, it's just kind of a comparison of how that food, the response to it would be similar to responding to sugar as kind of a, a comparison, 0 (14m 50s): Right. And just using as an example, like you said, the berries tend to not spike your blood sugar as much as perhaps like a melon or, or a ripe banana. So differentiating between the two between the two and how you react to it can go a long way. 1 (15m 9s): And partly based on just how many carbs as well. No, I think maybe a third of a cup of blueberries might have four or five carbs versus a small Apple is going to have 25 to 30. And I always think of somewhere when I first saw this chart, if you think about four grams of carbohydrate is equal to one teaspoon of sugar. And so if I eat a yogurt that has 22 carbs in it. Yeah. I'm eating a lot of five teaspoons of sugar, right? 0 (15m 49s): Yeah. No. And also the timing of when you have your carbs too, you know, like I'm pretty active. I lift, you know, I'm insulin sensitive. So I, if I'm doing, if I am going to add carbs to my diet, I tend to maybe wait to like, after a workout or I actually, like I used to in the middle of the day have like, like a big, I know like a big salad and there tend to use to be a little bit more carb, heavy, not riff, nothing refined, but they used to sort of weigh me down. I like to, if I'm going to have carbs, I actually sort of back load them and have them maybe towards the end of the day when like I'm settling down and I don't need to be maybe as mentally focused as I do in the middle of the day. 0 (16m 33s): So timing it out when it fits well in your schedule is I think important too. When we talk about carbs with your clients, how do you, because I have a, a fasting challenge that I, that I implement with individuals and I have a journal it's called a simple intermittent fasting journal where I ease people into a fast, ease them into like a 16, eight fast. And I'm curious how, how you work with your clients as far as getting them into fasting. Cause some people, for some people, it can be fairly, I'm assuming fairly intimidating and, and they get, they sort of fear it. 1 (17m 10s): I think the big thing is to start where people are. And so if they say, you know, the most I can go without eating is eight hours, okay. Let's work from there. Let's see if we can go to nine and see if we can get to 10. But the same time of working with them about increasing the length of time, they can go in a fasted state. I also try to work with them. And I think everyone in our team would try to work with them on understanding the impact of what they eat when they are, when they are eating and whether that makes it harder to go longer or whether it makes it easier. So, you know, if they are eating a lower carbohydrate, higher, healthy, fat kind of approach, fasting is going to become a lot easier. 1 (17m 58s): But if you ate cake and then start a fast, you're going to struggle more, you know, kind of using the, the nutritional piece as well. But like you said, just kind of build them into it slowly and then obviously work on some strategies of what do you do when you think you're getting a hunger signal. And what I've been finding a lot lately is just really listening to people in our community is for a lot of us, there's a fear of being hungry, a tension around what if I get hungry and learning or, you know, helping them to just increase their tolerance even of Whoa, what, what do you do with those feelings of hunger, if you're not going to eat and trying to understand the signals that they're even getting better so that they know how to respond to them? 0 (18m 51s): Yeah. I think that's a great point around hunger because I just remember before I even started fasting, like if I had any inkling of hunger, it'd be like, okay, let me just go grab like a kind bar, you know? And just like, so I can just quench that sort of thirst, you know, for hunger. And now it's like, once you get into fasting and you start to realize that, you know, hunger comes and goes, right, these waves come and go and maybe go for a walk or, you know, have maybe a sparkling water and you'll be like, Whoa, where'd it go? You know, like I can keep going. And I think that go can go a long way into help make fasting really not that big of a deal after a while. 1 (19m 37s): And I think especially people who are working on weight loss as their goal, or one of their goals to even just understand your body's going to get energy from one place or another, it's either going to get it from the food you eat or it's going to get it from your body. So if you feel a little bit of hunger right now and you don't eat, your body is still going to take care of that need. The good news is it's going to take care of that need by going into some of your fat stores and using up some of that. Right. And so I actually, at some point, as people get into it is describe, you know, kind of embracing that hunger signal at that point. 1 (20m 19s): Because if I don't feed my body, when it says it needs energy, it's going to go get energy off my body. And that's a good thing. 0 (20m 28s): Yeah. It's sorta cool. When you think about it, it's amazing your body, what it will do. I mean, we all have plenty of energy unless like you're completely underweight, right? Completely underweight, maybe less than what, like 4% body fat. You'd probably say fasting is not for you on that note. What type of people, maybe shouldn't fast. 1 (20m 49s): So we have limits in our community as far as we don't recommend fasting for anyone under 18, I'm still in a development of developing stage in their, their growth, obviously pregnant women or women who are nursing, we don't encourage fasting. And then I think really, it just would depend on if you have any type of medical condition where although lots of stressors happen in our body and fasting actually is a stressor. Most of us can handle that very well, but let's say someone has a lot of adrenal issues too long, a fast might actually make that worse. 1 (21m 34s): If, if their adrenals don't get the support through eating. And so a lot of people in our community have really gotten to the place of exploring what else is going on. You know, maybe their weight loss, resistance isn't dressed, they were eating too much or too frequently, but maybe there are some underlying causes, thyroid adrenals, different things. So I think it's always smart to really be on top of other concerns and know whether it's safe to, to, you know, have your body do this fasting, obviously you and I both agree, or we probably wouldn't be doing this. That fasting is very safe, but again, it is a stressor. 1 (22m 16s): And if your body is already in a point where that could become problematic, you want to be careful about not pushing it too far. 0 (22m 25s): Yeah, I completely agree. And what about fasting? Have you found differences between men and women with fasting? Do you approach it differently? 1 (22m 36s): You know, Megan talks about this quite a bit, Megan Ramos, and that in all of the research they've done with all of their clients from the clinic, men tend to lose weight earlier. Okay. So if you had, you know, a male and a female doing the same approach, the male would probably lose weight earlier on in the process, maybe more quickly, which can often be very frustrating for if a husband and wife duo are doing something together, but in the end, the women catch up their body just goes about it a little differently. I think there's a lot of talk in various circles. 1 (23m 18s): Women shouldn't fast, or women shouldn't do this, or obviously there are physiological differences. I'm not trying to downplay that, but fasting is safe for both men and women. We see that sometimes women, especially at a certain age, particularly, maybe post-menopausal, they may need to do a little bit longer, fast to experience some of the benefits. Whereas they may see, you know, a man who gets great benefits from the longest fast he does is 18. They don't get some of those benefits until they do 36 or 42 or something. And then there also are just some differences as far as sometimes with some signaling around hunger who benefits at what time in the fast, as far as the human growth hormone and those kinds of things. 1 (24m 10s): But I think the big myth that I would want to, you know, dispel is that it's not safe for women or women can't do this, or post-menopausal women can't lose weight. Those are not true. And we have real thousands of people who have gone through our program that can speak otherwise. So 0 (24m 31s): Yeah, no, that's a good point. I mean, it, it is safe, you know, per se for, you know, for most people, right. I mean, it it's just abstaining from food for a period of time, which like back paleo, if you talk about the paleo times and back in the day, this was done all the time. Right. Hunter and gatherer, and they went, they went days without food. Maybe let's, let's touch on like extended fasts. This is something that I, I mess around with. I I've never done like super long fan. I've done, you know, to some two day fast. Some things like that. Typically for me, my fasting window, I usually fast about, I'd say 1820 hours every day. 0 (25m 15s): And then I have about a four hour eating window where I'll, I'll get two meals separately, but I like to mess around with my fasting window, see what works well on that day. And also just how I'm feeling, how active I was as well. What about extended fast? And I know other than obviously weight loss and things like that, some people do it because they want to get what's called like do some self cleansing, like the TAF, a G. So perhaps touch on that. Is there a certain time? I know this it's not all black and white, but is there a certain time period where autophagy like cell cleansing can play a role on as far as how long you fast? 1 (25m 57s): Sure. You know, a lot of information about autophagy is still a little unknown though. We've obviously learned a lot over the past few years, but in general we think of autophagy kind of starting more in the 18, or excuse me, in the 24 and beyond 24 hours and beyond, depending on how someone is doing metabolically, it may start a little earlier for them. So depending on kind of whether they're fat adapted or not, if that's a term that you used much here that may affect it. And then we do see at some point, the rate of autophagy backs off a little bit, you know, so maybe after three days, four days, it backs off a little bit. 1 (26m 42s): Obviously you're still autophagy, but as you mentioned, a lot of people do longer, fast for that reason for overall health benefits. Some obviously also you do lose weight during an extended fast, but the health benefits are great. The increase in human growth hormone. So actually helping to build lean mass while fasting and, you know, getting the autophagy. Some people do an extended fast a few times a year, and that can help with certain health conditions. If your body gets to really cleanse and get rid of the old garbage tissue that needs to be cleared out. 1 (27m 24s): I think that's really important. 0 (27m 28s): Yeah. I w I was almost think of like, you're, when you, when you don't feed yourself and you abstained for food for a period of time, your body has a chance to sort of heal, right. Also like a lot of gut, you know, people who have gut issues, it's a great way to if with extended fastest or to heal the gut, do a lot to some people come to you with gut issues. And, and what kind of protocol do you put them on? 1 (27m 56s): We, you know, we don't specifically as a team have different as far as like supplements and those kinds of things. We do make some recommendations as far as electrolytes, but we also encourage people to work on improving your gut health through what you're eating. When you eat eating food that is not inflammatory, not eating seed oils, different, you know, just nutritional things. And then people can go beyond that with certain supplements and kind of detox programs and things. There's something you said in there that I was going to go back to, but what a lot of people find is just by kind of eating more whole food, less processed food, focusing on certain foods, their gut health improves, but they might feel some symptoms along the way. 1 (28m 48s): So part of fasting and kind of improving the way we eat, we may go through some symptoms of kind of detoxing our body. And sometimes I think people feel a little bit discouraged. You know, they, they start doing this and that while everyone else said I was going to feel great when I did this for it, actually. And so knowing that your body is doing cleaning in that process and getting rid of some of the stuff that really needs to be taken out. The other thing I was going to mention that you said kind of, it's a healing time. We have one of our community members who was really good at coining phrases and renaming things. And he refers to fasting days as healing days and eating days as rebuilding. 1 (29m 32s): And one of the things I love about that is it makes them equally important. So what I eat on rebuilding, that's what I'm building my foundation, my house with. I don't get, you know, second rate supplies for that. I get good quality building materials. And then I also take time to let my body heal. 0 (29m 53s): Right. That's a great way to look at it because you want to sort of balance it out, right? I think too much, one way or the other is probably not good. Like you said, fasting is a stressor. And if, and especially if you're like in decent shape, this and that you could overdo it with fasting. And the other way around, if you're eating 24 seven all day long, I don't care what, you know, what you look like. It just, you don't need to, it's, it's almost like an over abundance of, you know, food and your body has plenty of resources on its own that it could use in itself. Like you mentioned, how long is the adjustment period, would you say? Like for most people when they get into fasting to become fat adapted, right? 0 (30m 37s): Cause that doesn't happen overnight. If you're used to eating carbs all the time and eating something every two hours, what do you see with your clients? How long does it usually take them to become per se like fat adapted and get into, you know, fasting? 1 (30m 53s): I think it depends a little bit on, again, what their approach to eating is, you know, we do have some people who aren't in a place where they're going to change what they eat. And so for them, fat adaptation may never actually happen. They may get some benefit from fasting, but then kind of negate that benefit through eating. But I would say generally, if people are switching out their foods a little bit, going lower carb and doing the fasting also depends on how much fasting they're doing. But I would say even at least a month, for most people could, you know, six weeks, eight weeks, depending again, on how, how long of faster there are they doing. 1 (31m 34s): I know a lot of people, when they talk about intermittent fasting, they talk a lot about the 16, eight or 18 six. And for people who have a significant amount of weight loss, or who have diabetes or something, another, you know, fatty liver disease or something else they're working on, we find that often that's a great starting point, but it's not going to be optimal for them. They're going to need to do some more fasting and give their body some more healing time. So, you know, if people are doing, for example, three 40 twos a week, they're going to become fat adapted probably more quickly than someone who is doing 18, six or something. 0 (32m 15s): Now, when you said three 40 twos, just so people know. So throughout the week, three times are doing like a 42 hour fast and they're also using their overnight sleep as part of it, obviously. Right? 1 (32m 27s): Absolutely. And I try to make it as simple as possible when I talked number. So I'm glad you brought that back. Cause I, I forget that that's not likely, but let's say for example, my general eating times are noon six. So every day, if I eat two meals, they're noon and six, right? And most, most people, by the time they start doing a lot of this, they do get to the point of only doing two meals a day. So if noon and six are their regular times, and let's say Sunday night, they have their meal at six o'clock. They eat their next meal on Tuesday at noon. So they stay at their same times, just skipping the whole day of Monday. And that's a 42 hour fast. Yeah. So there's no clock watching. 1 (33m 8s): There's no. Okay. I've got four more hours I have to do. You just know I eat at noon and six, but you know, a lot of people do 36 hour fast. So that would be Sunday dinner to Tuesday breakfast 24 would be dinner one day till dinner the next day. 0 (33m 25s): Right. Almost like one meal a day. Yeah. Maybe speak on. Cause some people are like, well, what's the difference between this and just cutting calories. And I know, and you know, obviously there's hormonal differences perhaps maybe speak on that for someone that is apprehensive. And they're like, well, what's the difference between that? And just cutting back my calories, 1 (33m 52s): The way I understand it is it's a little bit about the messaging in our brain and what what's triggered and what's not triggered. So if I just restrict myself and say, okay, I want to lose weight. So I'm going to restrict myself to 600 calories a day. For sure. I will lose weight at that. The problem is it doesn't get to the point where we activate the, the counterregulatory hormones, the adrenaline that are the norepinephrine, the human growth hormone things. And our body gets used to that. And I think of it this way, like my body says, okay, we know she's going to give us about this much. 1 (34m 35s): It's not enough. So we better shut down some functions. So that's why it turns back the metabolism setting. 0 (34m 45s): Right? So you're actually slowing your metabolism by cutting calories. Even if you're just eating a little bit at a time, every whatever few hours, because your body's sort of expecting it. So it sort of slows down it's it's right, right, right. 1 (34m 57s): You know, I think of, if you run a factory and you burn coal and the delivery usually brings you a ton and they only start bringing you half a ton, you're going to start running your factory differently. You can't keep all the lights on and all the same machines running. Right. So you have to cut back. But if you eat for a day and then don't eat for a day, you're not giving it a little bit. So your body knows to go get the fuel it needs. And a lot of what we work on with people is not making it so predictable that your body figures it out and slows down. So if I eat on Sunday and I don't eat on Monday, my is still getting all of the energy it needs. 1 (35m 40s): I am not lying. Lustfully on the couch. I'm actually, I'm probably going to be more energetic on that day. And then I fuel again the next day. So it's a pulsing system of, you know, external fuel coming in internal fuel being used. But if only partial external fuel is coming in every day, it's a very different mechanism. 0 (36m 6s): Yeah, no, that's a good way of putting it. And on that point, what would you, I know this is a very common question is what breaks a fast, I get this a lot at w w w with your clients, how do you answer that? 1 (36m 21s): So a bit of a sarcastic response I've developed over the years, because it is, as you said, the most common response, but I get it, it it's, it's an important question that people are asking. So my more sarcastic responses, if you ate food, you broke your fast, but more important than did I break my fast is why am I fasting? What benefits of fasting am I working on? And what impact does this particular thing have on that? So for example, some people say, well, I I'll fast. I won't eat, but I'm going to drink diet soda. Does that break my fast? 1 (37m 1s): Well, what it does is, you know, from the sweetener, many of us, most of us still have some insulin response from that. So is it, you know, all out fast? No, it's, it's got a little bit of interference, but some people can still do that and succeed. Some people we talk about them as fasting AIDS or kind of tools to help you fast. So let's say I'm doing a 48 hours. So a two day fast, and maybe at the end of my first day, I want to have some bone broth. Is that breaking my fast technically yes, but not real significantly. 1 (37m 46s): As far as if it helps you to keep going to get the next benefit. That's great. Ideally, at some point it would be great if someone didn't need that tool, but I think it's, it's more a matter of how I use the word interference. How much interference does that food item have in your fasting benefits? So for example, people say, well, I have coffee in the morning, but I'm gonna wait until dinner to eat. Is it okay if I put cream in my coffee? Well, technically again, it is going to activate a little bit of response, but if that helps you go all day to get to the, you know, some more fasting hours, that little bit of interference may be worth it to you 0 (38m 36s): And tea and coffee, black coffee with your clients is fine, correct? I mean, there's not, there's probably a small, significant of calories in there, but pretty much zero. So black coffee would be, would be fine. 1 (38m 55s): And again, depending a little bit, if their real goal is autophagy, then there's some debate about coffee. But if you know, if you're really going for, I want to optimize my health, I want to lose some weight. I drink coffee or tea on my fast black coffee on eating days. I put cream and things in my coffee, but on a fasting day, it's black coffee. 0 (39m 20s): What's your fasting protocol 1 (39m 23s): Right now? I do 18, six all the time. Like that's just kinda my eating schedule. And then when I decide I'm going to do some fasting, then I will do some 20 fours. So again, kind of the one meal on those days lately, I've had some health issues that I've been working to resolve. And so I have done some weeks where I did the three 42 hour fast. And when I was really actively using fasting to lose weight and, and manage my diabetes, I was doing three 40 twos every week for months. And that's kinda how I achieved my goals. 0 (40m 2s): What do you find is a good key for people starting out? Cause I always say with fasting, I think what makes it easier staying busy? You know, at least for me, like when I, you know, I would do work from home a lot. So, you know, I'm walking past my kitchen 40 times a day, what is a good tip to, to like help people with the fast and get them through it? 1 (40m 27s): It's a great question because I think we see even more of that this year, because so many more people are at home so much more than in the past, right? So keeping busy and staying out of the kitchen has been a little more challenging for a lot of people. As you said, I think keeping busy with activities and that touches on another topic of just finding other things that comfort you bring you joy, give you some purpose because a lot of people find that eating and particularly problematic foods become their go-to for all of those emotional needs. But going back to your question specifically, I, I use this strategy and I've shared this with a lot of people in our community. 1 (41m 12s): I think about the idea. If I were on vacation, staying in a hotel and needed to go to a restaurant for meals, how often would I go to a restaurant? Probably twice a day, not seven or eight. Right? So I think of my kitchen as a restaurant. How often do I need to go there to get food right? Only at mealtime or if it's a fasting day, not at all. Then I only think of my kitchen as a hydration station, but I think that takes practice. Like now when I'm on a fasting day, I don't even notice the food that's in the refrigerator. 1 (41m 56s): I go open the refrigerator, grab my water bottle. I don't even look at the food. Whereas in the beginning I probably longingly looked into the refrigerator, you know, thinking tomorrow food tomorrow. But I think just practicing mindset, things about even what we say to ourselves, letting ourselves know my body is getting everything it needs right now while I'm fasting. If we talk to ourselves as if we're being deprived, we're going to create more tension around it. 0 (42m 30s): Yeah, no, it's great that you bring that up. Cause it really is just a mind game. All this, all, this is just a mind game. And for myself, when I do maybe a longer, fast, like I've mentioned, I try to stay busy going for walks, do other activities that take your mind off perhaps food. But I also also think about it as you're used to eating at certain times, let's say you're seating at noon and six, just get past those times. Right? Like those are like little obstacles, little like bumps in the road that, you know, you'll probably get a little bit of a hunger cue. And if you can just fill, make sure you have something that fills your time other than eating at those times, once you get past those little speed bumps, then I feel like it's like you, like, it's like the home stretch sort of thing that you can just like smooth, sail it in because I just did one a two day, one like last week. 0 (43m 27s): And that was my thing. Once I got past like my eating period between like five and seven and it was like seven 30, I didn't even, I was like, you know, again, I've done this for a long time, but once I got past that, it was like, Oh, this is like nothing. Like I'll just go with the rest of my night. Yeah. 1 (43m 44s): So I think you highlighted something really important too. Habit is such a big part of this. People have learned, you have to eat at these times. Some people it's like, what do I do at noon? If it's not, if I'm not eating like that's lunch, what, what am I supposed to do? And so changing the way you think about some of those things, changing the habits around it, and also knowing a little bit about just the physiological process. It is natural to get some hunger late afternoon. So it's a great time to be busy doing something, you know, for some people it might start as early as two might go until five or six. That's a natural hunger time. 1 (44m 26s): Right? So doing something during that time, if I use any fasting AIDS, that might be one I would choose to do that for me. It's also about changing out habits. So a lot of people are used to snacking at night and I'm kind of a stickler on that. I, I often say there's no such thing as healthy snacking. Even if you're telling me it's healthy food, right. Having additional an additional eating time is not healthy for us. So at that time I like flavored tea. I might go get a flavor tea to help myself break that habit. So I do still get something, you know, something warm to sit with a little bit of comfort without any impact on my health. 1 (45m 12s): So I think changing out some habits, doing things during those times that you, as you described that are more challenging, disconnecting what we associate, you know, some people say, well, I have a hard time when I sit down and watch TV at night, if I'm not snacking. So you have to break that habit. I do online jigsaw puzzles as one of my things, you know, it keeps my hands busy, keeps me occupied. And that would have been a time years ago that I would have been snapping all night. 0 (45m 43s): Right. Yeah. I like that. You bring up like a warm, like tea or like a, you know, like a flavor too, like a peppermint, because it does sort of quench that sort of like, especially if you like sweets I'm, I, I do enjoy sweets from time to time. And sometimes I just know that, like, I just don't want to have those sweets. So like a peppermint tea or, you know, whatever it is, something like that can really sort of quench your thirst for that. And also sometimes you might think you're hungry, right. But you're actually just a little bit dehydrated too. I'm sure you run into that where you think I'll tell you what's a great tool that I like to use a sparkling water because I never used to like sparking water until I got into fasting. 0 (46m 27s): But it really is. Especially if you're trying to do a little bit of a longer, fast, it's such a great tool to have, because it really does. At least for me, I can only have so much of it. Cause it really does fill me up. 1 (46m 39s): The other thing that we talk a lot about in our community is whether you're going lower carb, adding in fasting or doing both, you are probably going to notice that you, you wash out more of your electrolytes. And so if our body is naturally washing some of them out, we need to replenish them. Right? And so salt is the primary electrolyte that if we can keep our salt levels in balance that helps the other stay in balance. And so having some salt water, it sounds gross to many people, but once you get used to it, it's fine. 1 (47m 22s): But I drink salt in my coffee 0 (47m 26s): And you probably don't even know it's in there. No, 1 (47m 28s): It actually just it's salt is a flavor enhancer. Technically that's kind of what it does. So my coffee doesn't taste salty to me now. It just tastes like coffee. And when I forget to put the salt in there, it tastes like weird water. So salt, let's say for example, it's four o'clock and people say, Oh, I'm just, I'm just really having a hard time with this hunger that I'm experiencing putting a couple of pinches of salt on your tongue, like a good Himalayan salt. And just absorbing that, getting enough sodium can often stave off that response. Like you said, it's a thirst, it's a, it's a hydration issue. It's needing more fluid. 1 (48m 8s): It's needing more electrolytes, 0 (48m 11s): Right? Yeah. I've become a big fan of salt on, you know, like a good quality sea salt, like a Redmond salt on all my food and I'll do put it sometimes in water. I put it in my dog's water too. I also do. I, I do make like a, a black coffee, like an ice coffee. And that I'll use that from time to time. And I'll actually put like some mineral trops in there as well. And that helps. And you don't even, can't even really taste it in there. You don't even know it's there. Like you said. So a lot of times sometimes you think you're hungry, but you're actually, you're actually really not. You're you're you're you need some, you need, you need some type of water with, with some type of minerals in it. 1 (48m 56s): You know, Brandon was gonna go back to, if it's okay to circle back to a question you asked a while back about anyone who fasting would not be a good idea for. And I think of this a lot in what I do as you know, with my background as a psychologist is to really kind of, some people end up using fasting as part of a problematic pattern with eating of it's easier to fast than to have to eat because eating causes me difficulties. I have, you know, I do emotional eating or I do binge eating. And so sometimes they almost love fasting because it's an escape from eating. 1 (49m 40s): And I think if, if people have a history of anorexia or binge eating disorder that they need to be real careful about fasting, I have also found that for, I guess, if it was anorexia or purging, I've actually worked with a number of people in our community who have had binge eating issues and fasting actually helped because it helped them gain a sense of control over what they eat and when they eat, but to focus on that in a healthy way, not going to access one way or another. So I think people who have a severe eating disorder history need to make sure they into fasting with a lot of wisdom and, you know, check it out 0 (50m 32s): Even with a coach, like yeah. 1 (50m 36s): So that they know that they're doing it safely and not just kind of recreating a different issue, that's really kind of serving the same purpose. So that would be one other category that I would think of, of people just being mindful of whether fasting is a good fit. 0 (50m 50s): Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad you brought that up also too. I think some people think that if they do fast, that they are going to binge eat when they break their fast, which can happen. I'm sure you've run into that for me. I actually find out I can, I can't eat as much as I used to be able to eat. Like I fill up quicker and you know, you sort of, you're in touch with sort of those hunger cues and when, and, and also when you're, when you're full as well, and you just don't want to overdo it. How do you, do you run into that sometimes with people, have you run into people who perhaps start binging and how do you sort of address that? 1 (51m 30s): I would say not only bingeing, but even just overeating is very common because I think a lot of it stems from a mindset piece. If I think about while I'm fasting, that I'm being deprived of something, something is being withheld from me when it is available. Again, I'm going to jump in full bear versus, you know, if they can plan, I'm going to have a nice meal when I break this fast and get, I always just describe it as kind of a pendulum swing where rather than I can't eat, I can't have anything to, Ooh, I get to eat. 1 (52m 11s): Now it's too big of an emotional swing versus I'm doing something really good for my body right now, not eating. I'm doing something really good for my body right now, eating a healthy meal. It's not can, and can't not being deprived. And now I get to reward myself. That's another big theme that comes up often as well. I did my fast. Now I should reward myself with food. But if you think about why most of us are fasting, so you're going to reward yourself with weight gain. You're going to reward yourself with diabetes. You know, it's not a reward. If you feel that you need a reward for the fasting you're doing, maybe monitor it in a different way and reward it in a different way than food. 1 (52m 56s): You no. I talked with a client that their night and she is kind of has a fasting protocol that she's following. And she kind of does a little checkmark of, she kind of gets points for eating well fasting. Well, and then when she gets a certain number of points, she'll do something for herself. She'll buy something that she's wanted or she'll go get a massage or a facial or something, but not rewarding with food. 0 (53m 20s): Yeah. That's a good point. And what would you tell someone as far as this is another question that comes up breaking a fast proper foods. I always say you want to start slow. I think that'll help too, as far as overeating, right? If, if you, if you start eating fast, it's a lot easier to overeat. If you, if you sort of ease yourself into that process, because I noticed even sometimes for myself, I need to slow myself down and get up and maybe walk a little bit and then come back. But as far as breaking the fast, you know, obviously it depends how long you've been fasting for and things like that. I like to say like maybe a soup would be like a bone broth is a great way to start or something, you know, lighter, let's just say eggs or like a light salad, something like that. 0 (54m 5s): Is that how you, 1 (54m 6s): It starts to get your kind of digestive system back on track, especially if you've been fasting longer. Right. You know, if you've been doing a 48 or 72 hour fast, like yeah, you want to start slowly and even time it. So I'm going to eat this. And then 45 minutes from now, I'm going to have my, the rest of my meal. I think for a lot of people planning their meal is important because otherwise, and I've done this and I've watched a lot of people do this. It's it's that time you're going to eat after you fasted. And it's almost like you just kind of stand in the kitchen, looking for what else, what can I have versus plan an appropriate meal that has the appropriate amount of protein that you normally eat, appropriate amount of fat veggies, whatever it is, and that's what you eat. 1 (54m 55s): But if you give yourself permission, well, I just fasted. So I can just stand here and put in whatever I see, right? That's going to usually run into some problems. Then some people have some sensitivities. I still break my fast with eggs, but for some people, eggs can actually cause some gastric issues. So I think that's one that you just kind of have to test out if that's a good food for you or not. For me, it still works well. If people have any gastric issues after breaking a fast, they might want to break their fast. For example, with some whole fat Greek yogurt and some chia seeds, get the body moving with those things first to kind of cut down on some of the gastric issues that could arise for them. 1 (55m 47s): Oftentimes we discourage things like nuts just because they're a little bit harder to digest. Right? 0 (55m 54s): Some people can't. Yeah. And you can overeat nuts too, right? Like I've been there done that. You can, you can, it's so easy. And I would say too, that helps me. It's like a good quality protein. Let's just say grass fed grass finish even like a ribeye, you know, something that maybe has some fat on it too. Cause you know, obviously protein satiating in itself, but a little bit of fat could help as well. Especially if you're going to, you know, you, you're going to go into another fast, right? So you want to have something that's quality and that's, you know, and your body's going to sort of, it's going to be like a slow release of energy as opposed to, like you said earlier, like if you're, if you're breaking that fast with Luma, Oh, well we have Lumon is pizza here in Chicago, but you know, deep dish pizza, it's going to be that much harder to, to, to do, to get into a fast and have it last. 1 (56m 45s): Yeah. And the thing that I've been talking with a lot of people about lately and you know, it's one of those kinds of unfortunate realities. Like we don't want this to be true, but it is, we're doing something a little unique in these days to be fasting. So we're going against the grain to this and it's not always super easy. Like you're actually taking on a challenge to do this. My encouragement is let your body have the benefit of it. And don't wipe out the benefit when you start eating again. Because then what people really see is it's just, you know, I can't think of the right way. It's, it's a balance that doesn't go in their favor. 1 (57m 25s): I get the benefit. Then I wipe out all the benefits. Then I get the benefit. I wipe out all the benefit and it makes the challenge unnecessary because you're not getting the good 0 (57m 35s): Right. I think if, and we can talk about this forever, but we'll hit out a few more points. I think if you do fasting long enough, right. I think like you said, give yourself a month or two. And if you do it long enough and you start realizing the benefits of it. And also the fact that you're only maybe having a meal or two a day, or every couple of days, you start to put, add value to that meal and realize that, you know what, I really need to eat something that's satiating or else it's gonna make it that much more difficult. But yeah, no. So eating nutrient dense foods is the way to go if you're going to be fasting. 1 (58m 17s): Absolutely. And I think as you said, you will start to food will become different to you. Right. You know, I never would've thought I would say, wow, I can't wait to have cauliflower rice, but you know, you will develop different tastes. You will start to be able to listen to your body more for what it needs. My body was always telling me false information. It just wanted high carb, highly processed food all the time. Right. But now I know nutrient dense food and I enjoy those foods. Right. Because of the healing that, that doing the fasting and eating well does for the body. 0 (58m 58s): Yeah. Well, I can honestly talk, we could talk forever on this topic cause I love it. But let me just ask you one last question. I ask all, all my individuals that come out of the podcast, my guests, and we've hit on it probably. But what would be a tip that you'd give someone maybe in their forties, fifties that, you know, they're middle-aged they want to get their bodies back to what they, once let's say 10, 15 years ago, what would be one tip? You'd give that individual fast, 1 (59m 31s): Hard to cut down a hundred tips. Honestly, I would encourage, I think, especially at that age range, I would focus it on, I want to be healthy and longevity because the things you're going to do for that are going to help get your body back as far as weight, as far as body composition. But I see a lot of people who focus on right then I just want to lose weight and it 0 (1h 0m 5s): It's a different, that's a different mindset, right. 1 (1h 0m 9s): But to think I want to be healthy, you know, at that age, you're starting to see parents, aunts, and uncles with all these chronic illnesses you've been put on three medications, be say, ah, I'm going to do the next 40 years of my life differently than that. 0 (1h 0m 25s): Right? No, that's great. And, and finding a coach like yourself or myself, someone that can hold you accountable and guide you. I think we all can use coaches in any aspect of our life that we need help with. So Terry, where's the best place for people to find you. 1 (1h 0m 42s): It's just w w w dot the fasting method.com. You can come and look at our site, but I will let people know there's a one-week trial membership so they can sign up for it. That will give you access to all of our resources. You can come to our support groups, you can join in on things and really get a feel for the community before you decide whether it's something you want to do longer term, you could also sign up for the newsletter to get blogs from Megan Ramos and Jason Fung, but come check out the program and see if it's something that fits. 0 (1h 1m 21s): Yeah. And you make a point about community, right? Like I think if you're doing anything like this with fasting, I w w I tell people only tell supportive people, right? And then if you could become part of a community of other people that are doing it, it just makes it that much easier. And I think it can go a long way in helping you achieve what you're looking at. Yeah, 1 (1h 1m 42s): Absolutely. I, I see, especially this year with so much kind of social isolation in different things, the, we have support groups. Those have been so powerful for our community members, maybe on a call of 40 people to have, you know, 10 of them say, and 15 of them to write in the comments, like I've done that same thing. I've struggled with that. It's okay. You're going to make it right. The power of that, especially again, you're doing something that's, it's not like everyone else is doing your friends. Aren't all doing this. Your family members might look at you funny for wanting to skip a meal. 1 (1h 2m 22s): And so finding a community that just gets it and can support you is really important. 0 (1h 2m 28s): Yeah. I completely agree. And they can go a long, long way. So Terry, thanks for coming on. Absolutely. The fasting method.com and we could have gone on forever, but this is great. I appreciate it. 1 (1h 2m 42s): Well, I appreciate getting to talk with you, Brian. 0 (1h 2m 47s): Thanks for listening to the get lean, eat clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. And I appreciate that. Check out the show notes@briangrin.com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Dr. Terri Lance

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