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episode #16

Interview with Marty Kendall: What’s wrong with Keto, Data Driven Fasting and Which Proteins to Prioritize

May 12, 2021 in Podcast


Marty Kendall is the owner of OptimisingNutrition.com and the author of Big Fat Keto Lies and Data Driven Fasting. In this interview we discuss what is wrong with keto, how too much fat can be bad, data driven fasting along with the following topics: – Testing blood sugars to optimize your fast – When to prioritize protein during the day – Which proteins to eat and which ones are most bioavailable – How to refuel around workouts – Most nutrient dense foods – Marty’s thoughts on Carnivore – What’s the deal with eating nuts or dairy? – Marty’s daily routine – Breathing hack to burn fat – Importance of minerals for health and his one tip to get your body back to what it once was…

0 (1s): Coming up on the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast,

1 (4s): I'm just the higher, the percentage of protein in your diet at the more it smashed as the satiety. And that just means you can eat less calories without being consumed by thinking about food all the time. So, and we can all count calories for a few days, but before long, we just go insane and the appetite wins out. So that's been my experience and it's like, well, how do we optimize your diet to, to control the food choices to control our appetite better? So, yeah, it definitely a high percentage of protein helps to control the appetite.

0 (38s): Hello and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Gryn and I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it wants. It was five or 10, even 15 years ago, each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you a long-term sustainable results. This week I interviewed Marty Kendall he's the owner of optimizing nutrition.com. The author of Big Fat Keto Lies and Data Driven Fasting we discussed what is wrong with Keto. How too much fat can be bad. Data-driven Fasting and much, much more. I really enjoy this interview with Marty, and I know you will too. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy the Interview.

0 (1m 21s): All right. Brian Gryn here with the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. And my guest today is Marty. Kendall welcome to the show. Thanks. Brian great to have a chat. Yeah. All the way in Brisbane, Australia. What is your day ahead of us? Right? We're way ahead of you guys in a much nicer weather than Chicago. I know that. Yeah.

1 (1m 40s): It's getting warm. Hey, you guys can all be freezing over there.

0 (1m 45s): Yeah, no, it is it starting to get cold. It's starting to get cold, but Marty is a civil engineer by day, right? Indeed. And the owner of optimizing nutrition.com and also the author of Big Fat Keto Lies so we got a lot to touch on today. I've actually been a fan of Marty's for a while I go on it. I honestly, I used your website a lot is a reference ton of great content. I mean, literally a his blog. He is great. So that's optimizing nutrition.com and you know, before we get into nutrient density and, and your, your Fasting challenge, what sort of led you down this path of, you know, optimizing nutrition and, and yeah, I was just curious how you got to that point.

1 (2m 33s): Yeah. I'm a wife is type one diabetic. So I suppose 16 years ago, whatever, when we started to think about having kids, I went to a what's this diabetes thing. We started to try and understand how nutrition and diabetes and everything you've interacted. Just try to manage that risk. And luckily we've got some, two healthy, vibrant teenagers who grow and eat a lot. And yeah, so that, that when I came, but I suppose maybe five or six years ago stumbled across, you know, Rob Wolf, who is a, he's an amazing guy, had a great influence and Jimmy Moore and Jason Fung, and got into the, the low-carb scene.

1 (3m 13s): And there was a big low-carb down on the movement over there, over here, and in type one grit, which is an amazing group for people with type one, managing their diet with, with a foot, for type one diabetes. And that really radically improved and changed our lives. And, and Mike has health and vibrancy and weight and everything in insulin, blood sugar levels. And that was amazing. I suppose, I just continued to say, well, how can I apply my engineering? Like by day on going off, analyze bridges and structures and roads and bike pals, and multi criteria analysis to say, what should we put them on the way here or here? And it, should we invest over here?

1 (3m 53s): So that sort of approach to optimization for nutrition. So it came intuitively for me in, I thought nobody else was doing this. So I'll just keep on crunching the numbers. And I'm trying to create a system, a systemized systematized approach to nutrition. So, and yeah, as I shared it, it just a snowball. So I've had to hold the phone and lots of good responses. So I keep on doing it.

0 (4m 16s): Yeah. I mean, I was pulled, I was sort of grabbed by your site just because when you hear optimizing nutrition and you're someone like myself, who's been in health care models for so long. And I think one of the things is, is a lot of times people put a blanket, you know, like it was almost like a blanket view on what, you know, you've got to be Keto are you going to be Carnivore, you know, are you get your, maybe your vegetarian or like, I like the fact that you sort of take each individual find out, well, you know, what are they deficient in and how can they really get the most out of their nutrition based on their bodies and the way they are, or how, how does, how does it work with your site as far as optimizing based on the individual, do they take a, you know, to take a blood test?

0 (5m 3s): Or how does that work? Yeah,

1 (5m 5s): You can look at the blood tests, but I suppose I'm, we try to optimize, like you said, it there's so many different name to diets, keto and low-carb and Carnivore and plant based and vegetarian vegan. And each of those had got their challenges and in implicit deficiencies that are harder to get some new trends or harder to get on camera or on some nutrients, a harder to get for people on a plant-based diet. So we've sort of developed a bunch of food lists and recipes that if you're not tracking a few don't have any data, or you can say, well, these are the foods and meals within that, those parameters that will optimize your nutrient density within those rails that you've chosen to put on yourself.

1 (5m 55s): But I suppose my, my approach is that, you know, your diet doesn't even have a name or a belief system. It just needs enough nutrients. So if you are willing to track your food and chronometer, or you have blood tests, so you can then go, okay, which nutrients and one not getting enough of and which foods and meals will provide more of those. And we sort of worked from a bottom up approach with nutrient density to, to just transition and, and add more or less foods and meals that will give you those nutrients in it. They unique to the all different people, depending on what they're eating meat. You may have a, a, a blanket umbrella term that you used to define your diet, but everybody's incredibly unique.

1 (6m 36s): So if you are willing to track, we can, we've got the nutrient optimizer, which basically recommends different foods and meals that will optimize your nutrition for your current diet and your goals. Whether you're looking to be an athlete and you need to hold of energy or their trying to lose fat or managing your diabetes or whatever your goals are.

0 (6m 54s): Yeah. I noticed that on the site, like whether you're a bodybuilder or you're looking to lose Fat you sorta, or, and then, and then, you know, your goals along with also like, are you looking at for Quito or Carnivore or things like that? I mean, personally, I used to be like a pescatarian per se, and M S probably be over the last five, six months. I got a little more and, you know, cause I started learning a little bit more about, well, what am I going to get my best bang for my buck? As far as nutrient density is concerned and I'm a pretty active, so I needed to up the protein. I'm curious, you know, why don't we are going to talk a lot about protein. And so I, I started doing a lot of grass fed grass, finished, you know, a good high quality protein and making that a staple of my meals define it is that I know I had Dr.

0 (7m 47s): Ted Naiman on a few episodes before, and he mentioned, you know, protein is a staple and what are you along those same lines. Yeah.

1 (7m 56s): Yeah. I suppose from talking about pescatarian, it can actually be like, if we're going to have a name to a diet that can fit into it can be incredibly nutrient dense cause you know, fish veggies, it it's hard to go wrong. And if we define your diet around, around that is probably going to do a really, really well, as long as like, I suppose the, the, the whole plant-based label, it's just so wide, there's a whole food plant-based people who are eating incredibly nutrient dense. If they're excluding all the vegetable oils and seed oils and refined grains and sugars. But you know, that a plant based could be the worst of the available food with a refined oils in the sea and the grains and sugars all combined together with flavors and coloring.

1 (8m 45s): So, you know, that is such a wide definition, but seafood is incredibly nutrient dense, a lot of the vitamins and, and make it a three that in actual fact that beef is often harder to get. But most people just because seafood is a, is an acquired taste for some people. And it tends to be more expensive. Not everybody just lives on seminar. If I can live on salmon and broccoli all day, that'd be great, but most people can afford to do that. So beef was definitely a, a, an excellent bioavailable source of protein while still being more cost-effective. So the combination of the two, it was a really good balance along with some veggies, non starchy veggies to boost the nutrient dense.

1 (9m 32s): Yeah. But those minerals that are, tend to be harder to find just on beef.

0 (9m 37s): Yeah. And what I'm just curious as far as protein, and I know you wrote some articles regarding like amino acids. Yep. W w what is, what are your thoughts around, like, what are the, what are the best foods to get your, you know, those amino acids that are

1 (9m 55s): Any, any Proteins is definitely a plant based proteins can be less bioavailable. So if you did constrain yourself to a plant based approach, it can't, you have to look at the, the soy protein and those sort of things, which can still be bioavailable. If you get a vegetarian approach, then the eggs and dairy is a highly bioavailable. But I think I say so many people are thriving. I Carnivore approach because the decision of prioritizing bioavailable protein, and then it just smashes, there is a tidy and in line with Ted's work on our analysis of both the mastic done instead of half a million days of my fitness pal Data and 90,000 days of people using the train optimizer.

1 (10m 38s): I'm just the higher, the percentage of protein in your diet at the more it smashes you satiety. And that just means you can eat less calories without being consumed by thinking about food all the time. So, and we can only count calories for a few days, but before long, we just go insane and the appetite wins out. So that's been my experience. And it's like, well, how do we optimize their diet to control the food choices to control our appetite better? So, yeah, it definitely a high percentage of protein helps to control the appetite. But then if you're really active, you may be wanting to get it, get fatty cuts of meat. That'll get you more energy. But yeah, even the accountable community are still struggling to understand, you know, how to dial in the Fat from one extreme to the other.

1 (11m 25s): But yeah.

0 (11m 27s): Yeah. And what, what is your thought on Fat? I know, you know, I, I try to add it into my diet on a daily basis, either cooking with maybe butter or G M and a occasionally I'll have like avocado, I'm a big fan. And then if I'm going to do like a steak or something, maybe like something with a little fattier caught, maybe like a ribeye. I mean, Fat is key for right. Yeah.

1 (11m 56s): To, to, to a degree. I mean, the, the Fat that comes with protein is, is often an excellent fuel. And for someone like yourself, who's Lean and active and wanting to get more energy and then fats an excellent source of fuel. And you really want to be at rest. You want to be a burning Fat most of the time, we don't want to be dipping into carbohydrate stores are all the time, because you're not getting enough, basically from a personal fat threshold point of view. If, if I'm not sure if Ted talks about this, but your, your body fat stores are sort of building up. And once they become full, they sort of overflow when you get carbohydrates sort of a first in line to be burned.

1 (12m 36s): So if your burning carbohydrates, it, it means all your, your body fat stores, a full and overflowing. So you really want to have a, not an overflow of carbohydrate and a, a lot of people get a lot of satiety once they go for those bioavailable proteins with plenty of, of fat that comes along. But that's how we need to find a balance of, you know, if you overdo the Fat then, and that's when I went wrong all the time, you think you're, I've got to get a high ketones and ketones to everything, and you go off that slippery slope and the, you know, Fat, isn't actually per calorie as satiating as a, as a protein. And, and yeah, it tends to not be particularly nutrient dense.

1 (13m 18s): So I need to find that balance and that sweet spot for your goals and where you are, and not just to follow everybody else on Instagram and Facebook that had magic results with a keto diet, whatever that means.

0 (13m 31s): Yeah. And I'm curious about your book Big Fat Kita Lies what, what would you say? I don't know. It's like the cliff notes of that book, but it is because Keto has gotten so hot and the people it's like, all they do is have Fat all day. I'm assuming you talk about that in your book.

1 (13m 54s): Yeah. I suppose Marty his mistakes in low carb and keto world and things that I found to be really useful, but things that I've found when taken too extreme, aren't useful. So, you know, a few, like a lot of people end up fearing protein in pursuit of ketones and pursuing ketones. It's the end goal. And then you can get ketones in your blood by, you know, drinking butter and olive oil and, and, and the CTO and coconut oil. And we all did that five years ago when it was the, the crazy, and you you're chasing these high ketone values. And that's the, you know, these people are on Facebook, you've got this high ketone values. So I need high-key turn values like them.

1 (14m 34s): And it was just optimal ketone value zone. There's a optimal ketosis that you need higher and high ketones. But the reality is that after more and more people who've been following a ketogenic diet, they have found that as the metabolic health improves, you're a, you ketone levels come down. And if you continue to chase high ketones, when you're just adding more and more Fat when you're trying to use your body, Fat ideally Most, most of us are trying to not be obese and that's, you know, a challenge in a modern environment. So it would just keep on adding more and more Fat it doesn't tend to lead to long term optimal body composition. So, yeah. And so I've sort of broken down 12 different common myths and sort of shown, Hey, this is How optimizing nutrition and addressed those and progress us forward.

1 (15m 25s): And, you know, I've got a lot of love for my friends in Keto world, but I also think there's a lot to be learnt, continue to move down the path and your ketones aren't the, at the end goal that a lot of us have painted them to be there. They're a good thing if that's because they're eating a high satiety diet, but it is leading to fat loss from your body. That's a great thing. And it tries to order Fiji and, and you know, all these amazing benefits. But if you just Jamie in a hold of exogenous, ketone and exogenous Fat, then it's probably going to drive poor metabolic health. Yeah.

0 (16m 1s): Ah, and you know, we talk about nutrient density and the importance of it. I know you're a big fan of Fasting and I am as well. You have to have your data-driven Fasting challenge. I have a 21 day, I have a 21 day Fasting challenge, so that it also drew me to all of your work talk. I'm curious about the challenge. I'd love to hear more about it. Data-driven Fasting and, you know, I'm sure, you know, like anything, if you are going to get into Fasting eating right. And eating nutrient dense foods can make a Fasting a lot easier. Right. Right.

1 (16m 35s): Definitely. Yeah. And we try to balance for, you know, 15 Fasting and when you Eat, it helps a lot, you know, the same sort of a philosophy that when your Eat, if you're Prioritize high satiety, nutrient dense food, you going to be less, less hungry and less likely to binge, unless more likely to have a better body composition outcomes and feel more energetic. And I suppose myself, you know, I've tried the seven day fast and extended fast, and I just found, I wasn't losing weight over the long term. And you see a lot of people who are like, you know, a group of a survey in and say, what are the most common challenges with Fasting and the number one by a long way, it's just, people tend to keep losing and gain the same weight over and over again, lose his massive lung, her clean and fast, slow, and find that there are just bingeing on the energy dense nutrient poor foods at the end, because they feel that earns it.

1 (17m 31s): And the lizard brain is just triggered and going nuts. So, you know, the Data Driven Fasting approach is because coming from my wife being type one diabetic, and I'm watching her blood sugar is all the time and the CGM. And it's really fascinating. It sort of makes sense that, you know, when, when she's looking at blood sugars, Lies, she was very conscious of her food intake because you can see really what goes up, what, what drives that up. And she tries to manage that and, and she tries to sort of wait until it comes back down before you load in more energy, and basically your blood sugars are instantaneous fuel gauge for your body. And we can hack it by a sort of eating high fat foods and avoiding protein to avoid that spike after, but that often doesn't lead to satiety or a bit of a body composition or nutrient density.

1 (18m 22s): So really the number one thing that aligns with fat loss is just, you know, waiting long enough before your blood sugar drop again, before you eat again. So it's sort of what data driven Fasting is all about of, of finding the point at which you feel your hungry and want to eat. What are your blood sugars? And, and you sort of learned to correlate your blood sugar is with your sensation of hunger and you sort of become more mindful of your hunger and go, well, you know, maybe I'm not really hungry because I just ate whatever. And my blood sugar, I was still high. So it made me maybe I just want that a yummy thing leftovers in the fridge, and I am not really hungry. So there are so many reasons of why we eat and having a, a, a Data quantification enables us to differentiate between true hunger and, you know, when we're eating for a million other reasons, but we eat.

1 (19m 12s): So, yeah, the Data Driven Fasting challenge. You find your baseline over three days, and then you basically go, well, I feel hungry. I'll test my blood sugars. Is it below that baseline? And then we sort of dial down that target, that personalized hunger trigger during that the following three weeks, three or four weeks. And as you chase the lower premium blood sugar and everything else sort of follows with lower blood sugars, waking blood sugars, body fat, waist, everything else. So it, it seems to be an incredibly effective approach to, to dialing in that a Fasting routine without going Data and having to go days and days, you find that sort of, I think, a sweet spot where you've found that one or two meals a day, it really helps.

1 (19m 60s): And having a finite eating window, you quickly eliminate snacks and move into a more sustained approach that will lead to fat loss and your long-term goals.

0 (20m 13s): Yeah, no, that's an interesting approach to, in a way to get into Fasting and to align your, your sort of your hunger cues with w where's my blood sugar at, because like you said, you, you might think you're hungry, but you're really not hungry. You know, you're used to eating at a certain time, but we do, but with your challenge and I, I actually, I stopped using it, but for two weeks I did have a CGM. Yup. I used what I, I kept hearing about it, hearing about it. I'm like, okay, I'm getting one of these. I just want to give it a go or a continuous glucose monitor. And I will say it was, it was handy. It, it, it, it gave me a good idea of how, how foods affected my blood sugar and also the time of day and how it affected me as well, noticing that I'm not a late night eater, but when it got past a certain time, I made sure that I didn't have anything because, you know, insulin spikes happened, I watch and see more rapidly, but a greater, greater response towards the evening as it did, if I had that same thing in the middle of the day.

1 (21m 19s): Yeah. Yeah, definitely. We see a lot, you, you are more primes to store your food at night and, and your, your blood sugars tend to go a lot higher. So a lot of people go, yeah, maybe I shouldn't be eating so late. I'll move my, you know, higher protein, high satiety, high nutrient density foods earlier in the day, and then the not as hungry at night. So it just to help it helps it tweak it in. Yeah. What I see a lot of people jumping on the, the CGM bandwagon though, and a, you know, it, it can be very confusing. And I spend a lot of my time watching my wife CGM and trying to time, we've got this closed loop insulin system with, with an app that was set up with a bunch of people who have been really proactive and don't want to wait until it was a commercial system.

1 (22m 6s): And it does your head in, it really is. It's really complex and full on to try and understand what's happening with your blood sugar is all the time to just a simple glucose meter before you eat it as a whole lot more, I think are effective in less confusing. And it just validates your hunger rather than trying to, and then, then they use the wrong ways to hack it by, you know, avoiding protein or, or more fast food or, or combining fat and carbs together, which is the, you know, the ultimate way to drive your hunger to eat more. Although it may stabilize the blood sugar is a little bit, so, yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm not sure about everybody jumping on board with a CDN wagon.

0 (22m 48s): I sort of agree. I used it for two weeks and I agree it can sort of drive you a little crazy. I don't know. Cause like you're always like taken a look at it and I, for me, and I'm sure you see this, like more or less, like you want to just sort of be in tune of how you're feeling. I can tell how foods affect me. I mean, not everyone can be, you know, not everyone is like that. I think it takes time to get to that point. But I can tell, like, in the middle of the day I used to have this big salad with just like a, a, a really good a veggie burger. And that was like not, not, not, not with the vegetable oils and the, you know, the seed oils and things.

0 (23m 28s): I need it, but I did notice that because it was fairly carb heavy, even though they're not like refined carbs. I did feel a bit of a crash and I didn't really like that feeling in the middle of the day. Yep. Oh, that was just me that wasn't some CGM telling me that. So I think if you just tried to get in tune, I think Fasting helps me get in tune with those hunger Use and how you're feeling after you have a certain meal. Yeah, it definitely. So I, yeah,

1 (23m 60s): Just to find, Oh, sorry you go.

0 (24m 2s): It was just going to say I changed. I'm sorry. No, no. Yeah. You're the guest. I was just gonna, I, I, I changed, I just tweaked what I eat in the middle of the day, got a little bit away from the, the car side of things and it was more so let's just say eggs and exiting a lot on a lox and cream cheese and cottage cheese, or a little bit more protein Fat yep, yep. Maybe push my carbs towards the end of the day when I don't need to be productive.

1 (24m 31s): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For sure. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it definitely front-loading, we've done a bunch of analysis on When satiety versus when people eat in what people eat and definitely people who eat earlier in the day. I mean, it's not, you don't have to eat. I don't think we want to wake up and start eating, but that first meal, if you try to prioritize more calories and more protein, if you load your protein earlier in the day, instead of thinkers, you know, carbs and fat and the energy that you need it at the end of the day, if you need to top up, but you know, definitely prioritizing that the higher nutrient density higher protein early in the day is definitely a great hack for satiety.

1 (25m 12s): And like you say, not being on the blood blood sugar roller coaster all day, right? Yeah. It definitely a good play. What is it

0 (25m 20s): Thoughts around eating regarding working out and things like that? I mean, I, yeah, I was just say, I, I tend to work out in a fasted state for him and I'll do it towards the middle end of my day. And then I'll break my fast, maybe 30 minutes after my workout. It's almost like a reward.

1 (25m 39s): Yeah. And you're definitely depleted and, and you would need to refuel and refill, but those that energy stores, and if you are, if you, if your work out and go too long and try to push it, then I think a lot of people finally ended up binge eating and eating more than they would otherwise want to. And they get really hungry after a long time after they work out. So definitely loading your energy around for those workouts. The smart thing basically eat when you're hungry, but if definitely around the workout, when you need to refill on to get into, you know, we need to eat this time and this come and this time. And I think, you know, you get, I think there's a really tight anabolic window that you need to get your protein in, but definitely if you're getting enough protein across the day, then that's great for 99% of the people, if you're a bodybuilder taking a hold of steroids and performance enhancing drugs, then maybe there's some fine tuning to be done there, but not for most of us.

1 (26m 38s): Yeah.

0 (26m 39s): And what are your thoughts on like the different types of protein and, you know, are, are all Proteins created equal? You know, I saw you wrote a little bit about that. I had a guest on M a, the inventor of a backstory. I haven't been, haven't been published it, but he came up with a protein called Portage, which is kind of a fermented. I was at the end. He was saying how it was so much more bioavailable than like a whey protein and things like that. What are your thoughts around that?

1 (27m 10s): Wow, wait, wait. Proteins is right up there in terms of bioavailability, but yeah, there's definitely challenges when it comes to bioavailability or have a lot of plant-based Proteins Pittsburgh, protein, digestibility, amino acid score. And if you're not getting animal proteins, dairy proteins, then you definitely have to watch that the bioavailable, but at the same time, if you're getting your, your protein from a banana, you can eat, it needs to get a lot of banana to get that protein in each day. So we just end up eating a massive amount of calories. So the not just is the protein less bioavailable, but the amount of energy you have to consume to get that protein that you need is also a challenge.

1 (27m 54s): So, you know, if you compare, you know, weighed protein code, you know, egg whites, and those sorts of things are incredibly bioavailable and protein dense in terms of protein percentage. So you really need to focus on getting enough of those in every meal and not to, to, to manage are over or hungry or over the day. Otherwise you'll be seeking out those foods. And Ted's a big proponent of the protein leverage hypothesis that we keep on eating calories to get the, the protein we need and nutrients we need, particularly with seeing that in our analysis as Proteins is definitely the most dominant nutrient we seek, but all the other, particularly the, the minerals we, we seek and crave foods as well.

1 (28m 42s): So if you are focused on protein and nutrient density, then you can have a quilt quell, your appetite and a quince, your appetite. So you are not going to be eating as many as many calories to get what you need. And you know, most people don't binge on the Lean Proteins, that's the doughnuts and the hyper palatable, low protein carbs plus fat foods that are refined. Yeah, definitely.

0 (29m 9s): Yeah. Those are the foods that people typically binge on. Right. You can't really binge on broccoli. It's tough

1 (29m 16s): Or God, or, you know, or it sounds pretty good, but yeah,

0 (29m 21s): I was just gonna ask, what, what have you found through your research is the most nutrient dense foods. I know you mentioned obviously fish, but like name it, name a few in particular that if people are trying to sort of optimize their eating window.

1 (29m 36s): Yeah. We, we, we typically look at things in terms of nutrients per calorie. So the most nutrient dense things are the, the, the broccoli asparagus for Chris. But in reality, it's really difficult to get a lot of calories with those in, so if you want a Prioritize as much spinach and green leafy vegetables, as you can, that's a great thing, but there's, there's a limit. And then the next step down from NASAD is typically you're a lobster and, you know, your calamari and the, the, those Lean fish Cod the sorts of Lean seafood Proteins and then stepping down from that as is your meats, your Lena meats, a nutrient dense.

1 (30m 17s): Yeah. So I know

0 (30m 19s): What are your thoughts around like the Carnivore diet? I mean, you talk about broccoli and spinach. I mean, I know, you know, Dr. Paul Saladino, I know, you know, him, I think he might've even done like a nutrient dense test on him. What are your thoughts about that? You know, just with the oxalates and, and, you know, the things like that, it was

1 (30m 43s): The vegetables, like it's interesting. He's he's coming out and saying he is, you know, a a hundred grams of rice carbs from rice a day now, and honey, a curse is finding his workouts. He needs some Cubs to fuel these workouts and the, the glucose, as you can get enough glucose from the protein, you eat in a carnival diet, but it's really hard. Your body has to work really hard. So if we really active, it can be harder to do without that. But yeah, that's definitely a limited nutrient profile of meat alone and that adding some veggies in can really help balance it. And we tend to find most people get the best results when they're balanced between animal and seafood and plant-based foods.

1 (31m 27s): And right, when they focus on nutrient density, most of the calories come from the animal and seafood, but from a volume point of view, it looks like a hell of a lot of veggies. So, yeah, I don't, I don't really care. We are on that spectrum, but most people tend to do better when they're somewhere in the middle of, of those two extremes. But if you eat a a hundred grands of, of spinach and it needs to go to the toilet for a long time, then you go, well, that didn't really work for me. I'll take it a bit easy. And at the time there's no point in driving yourself to eat foods that you don't feel good when you're eating. And you want to, you know, your, your gut symptoms are a good thing. And talking the other day about, you know, from a carnival perspective, my wife Mani is sort of said, you know, just to have steak during the day to get as many stakes as you can and have blood sugars are incredible.

1 (32m 18s): And we nutrient dense, you know, family dinners with veggies at night. And it, it can be a great hack, especially for someone with autoimmune and gut issues and to eliminate everything. But then you don't want it to eliminate everything forever because then if you get it with a flower or happen to accidentally swallow a bit of broccoli, then you'll be, you know, your symptoms will be so much worse because we got, hasn't seen that you don't want to become that incredibly fragile. So I think is kind of a works for elimination diets for a while, then maybe try some nutrient dense foods. And it definitely don't go for the, the donuts and everything else that comes in a packet that is the combination of seed oils and starches with colors and flavors.

1 (33m 6s): But it's definitely off the table forever, if you care about your health. But if we focused on bringing back In nutrient dense foods, adding it to a carnival you're going in, and that was in a pretty good place potentially.

0 (33m 20s): Yeah. Yeah. Cause you see a lot of these extremes in and just listened to you is there was no need to really, unless you have like an auto-immune a disease or some type of yeah. Like I know he had like eczema or things like that where different foods would trigger that. But the key is just to have some, like, you mentioned have some balance and you know, too many greens don't agree with everybody. Definitely. And the carnivores definitely the ultimate elimination diet, for sure. But I'm curious to know, like, what are your thoughts around nuts and dairy and things like that. I know that that's a sort of a big in the keto world.

0 (34m 3s): A lot of people talk about that even in paleo, what are your thoughts are on dairy and, and nuts in particular.

1 (34m 11s): Yeah. That the yummy, if you need the energy, but they can be overdone. So we just need to be conscious, but you can jam a lot of calories worth of macadamias. You know, I'm asking for my hall or whatever. Yeah.

0 (34m 28s): I do. Like, it's almost like my cheap food.

1 (34m 32s): Yeah, no, I'll, I'll the same thing. I enjoy yogurt nuts. And you know, I'm extremely hungry. Like a, I'll tend to focus on protein during the day and you come home. And like yesterday I ended up walking for an hour and half and I was hungry as a, you know, you go for the, the yogurt and the nuts and even peanut butter or whatever. And, and that's a really a great way to get the calories back in, but it is so easy to overdo at the same time. So you need to find that balance of, you know, if you're not losing the weight you want to then dialing back the Fat because the fact is, you know, as much as I heard just eat fat to satiety and Keto world for so long, and it's not satiating, When removed from protein and nutrients.

0 (35m 19s): Right. So I'm a big morning routine guy. And I like to ask my guests, you know, what's what, what's your, what's your morning routine. And, and how does it work for you?

1 (35m 33s): I had the dream of being in lockdown and working from home for a while, and then having some long service leave and a really enjoyed that. But now, and back in the office and you know, I'll I'll, but I'll wake up quite early. I'll go to bed quite a bit. I'm often in bed by seven and then definitely asleep. But, but I, but then I'll wake up really early and just get on my, on my stuff done. But I'll often do heart rate variability recently in some resonance Breathing just to try and quiet the mind because it was so much going on

0 (36m 4s): And, and meditation, some form of meditation.

1 (36m 7s): I've never, I've never I'm or just breathing work. Yeah. It was just a Breathing of, I've never quite got in to the meditation thing. It never quite made, worked for me, but just to Breathing in watching your breasts, definitely it just helps bring your body and mind In in sync a little bit more and helps to quiet your thoughts from thinking of everything else you could have to do. And then I'll get up and attend to on my, on my Facebook avatar persona that I live somehow nationally through through the internet. And then I'll often jump in and do a quick a wheel, the five, three, one workout, just building strength. What kind of workout? Five, three, one five, three one.

1 (36m 48s): Yeah. So it's just a strengths building where it just going to go through five reps and then the three reps. And then you have a final PR at the end of each day for week four week cycle. I think it's a joke we'll we live in general. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a very simple time efficient that tends to blow me away and I'm feeling it for a few days, which is a good thing. So you have to go to a home gym that I love, and then I'll jump on the bus and listen to podcasts and get to work. And I've been walking but half an hour from the bus to where when your job is, so that's been really good, just so you know, walk along the river and walking's underrated and yeah.

1 (37m 35s): Yeah. So I've been trying to do that more than just to blow myself away, completely in the gym, as much as we love to feel that, but eventually hit a peak and you can't keep going up anymore. And your appetite, it just goes to the roof and you're hungry. So yeah, the, the, the walking just seems to be a nice compliment to the strength.

0 (37m 52s): Can I talk about walking all the time? And it's just like a simple hack for health really is walking after a meal. Right? I mean, have you seen this with your wife or with anyone as far as like blood sugars controlling it after you eat, you know, going for a walk, I have two dogs now, so you have to work for them. I'm out. There are plenty. I try to, I try, yeah. I try to move. I try to have our eating times right before our walks and it works out nice. Yeah.

1 (38m 16s): Yeah, definitely. And, and when I come home after doing the walking from the bus, you take your blood sugar's and it was like, wow, that's a really low. And the walking with your mouth closed and three nos Breathing is just a nice way of not pushing so hard that you have to dip into your carbohydrate stores and you try and your body to burn fat more, which is what the tour de France athletes are doing all the time.

0 (38m 41s): So Breathing through your nose as your walking, not through your mouth.

1 (38m 44s): Yeah. So it is, they're not pushing yourself so hard that you have to open your mouth to mouth Breathing and that sort of, you know, keeps you in a, in a, sort of a fat burning zone. If you want it to get hard core, we can measure your RQ and your VO two max and your lactate threshold. And that's, you know, really fascinating. Podcast on the Peter TIAA with Sanne Milano who did a lot of lactate threshold Testing on the, the guy who just wanted to do or whatever his name was, but I'm one of the tour de France. And he just said, he's got amazing capacity to just continue to burn fat. But that's where a lot of us could benefit just by pushing ourselves as much as we can while still knows Breathing to the point where we're still in, that fat-burning zone more with, it depends on the carbohydrates.

1 (39m 37s): And when you'd dip into your glucose and your blood sugar has dropped off, you get really hungry and ravenous and wanna, you know, go out and being, so it sort of a nice hack to, to not push your body to far and, and try not to burn fat.

0 (39m 50s): I love that hack. Yeah, that, that's a good one. So when you're going off of that walk, just put some tape on your mouth. Yeah.

1 (39m 57s): Or, or, or, or the taping your mouth at night. There's a interesting half hack that a lot of people doing, I did it for a little while, but yeah. It just training yourself to breathe through the nose at night

0 (40m 7s): Now. And no, I like that one. I'll have to do that on my walks. What are your thoughts about like circadian rhythm and things like that? Is that something that you talk about, you know, like with your Fasting windows and feet and when you're eating, like, what is your, I guess my question would be to is what is your typical day? Like as far as Fasting and eating? Yeah.

1 (40m 31s): Yeah. I'll, I'll, I've been trying to delay my first meal till lunch at work. So I'll take 'em, we've got this, a kangaroo meat over here. That's just basically wild game, but ah, it has to be cold because they're eating all the, all the fields. So it is cheap and incredibly nutrient dense and incredibly high Proteins. So I'll, I'll take some eggs or a kangaroo or something to work and have that when I get hungry about lunch time. And yeah. So I sort of a delay that first meal, make sure it's protein focused, but definitely trying to it's hard, but you know, get out and get some sun early in the day and not eat too much, too late, which is hard to do for most people and in including me.

1 (41m 17s): And when you come home, you know, you want to refuel, but yeah. Not, not eating late, late, late, cause most of us are making poor food, food choices at 11 or midnight.

0 (41m 28s): Right. I always found a good hack was just pick a time where you just going to stop for the day. It just like, that helped me a lot. And I was never a big deal in it. But if it's just, if it's six 30 and then the six 30 and you just sort of get into that rhythm where you're just like clothes, the kitchen.

1 (41m 44s): Yeah. It definitely know that that's a really smart approach.

0 (41m 46s): Yeah. And well, you're going to bed pretty early too. So you don't wanna eat too close to your bedtime. Right. I mean, you're going back to seven, seven, eight. O'clock right.

1 (41m 54s): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to everybody. I just love that morning time and my mind is clear and I can be creative source of crave that.

0 (42m 4s): Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I'm big on morning routines, just because you can get so much done, you know, you're up earlier than anybody in it. It's a nice, quiet, and you know, I'm usually up and then out with my dogs on a walk and no one, no one's out there. It's peaceful. It's a meditative. Yeah. It's great. Well, I'm curious. I mean, we've touched on a lot regarding your challenges, your website's awesome with your blog and then your book Big Fat Keto Lies I'll have to check that one out. Yeah.

1 (42m 35s): Yeah. I'll send you a link here. Love your thoughts.

0 (42m 39s): I'll definitely check that out. You have to have a recipe book, right? Yeah.

1 (42m 42s): Yeah. We, we basically realized that we can talk about the numbers and nutrient density, but we wanted to like show people what it looks like and people love it. And then it sort of all the time, Oh, this is what a nutrient density actually it looks like. And so we'd worked to optimize for the fur. We're going to meet a book on a plant-based book, a maximum nutrient density books. And we liked it so much. We did a high-protein to energy recipe book. And so there's a whole range from therapeutic keto, low carb blood sugar control. So we ended up with 22 books at the moment and we're working on it a bunch of more so that sorta got a

0 (43m 21s): Box or these PDR,

1 (43m 23s): The PDFs with a whole bunch of hyperlink. So in, in each recipe you can click on the hyperlink and it will open all the micronutrient details. And then we've got to listen to 150 recipes up in the back to align with that goal. So, yeah. So it would be hard to make it as a people say, Oh, you know, like a hard copy book, but it'd be hard to quote make it as a, a hard copy book in shops. But yeah, they've worked really well and people love it. And the integrated into nutrient optimizer. So if your log your food, it'll basically tell you what you should be eating next to continue to optimize your day to day.

0 (43m 57s): Yeah. Well that, and, and you, you mentioned micronutrients, I just wanted to touch, do you like a lot of people think they're hungry, but they are just lacking like potassium sodium and things like that. Right. I mean, like I teach a lot of people to maybe add a little bit of a good quality sea salt. So the water, what are your thoughts around getting a, you know, those micronutrients?

1 (44m 23s): Yeah, definitely. Definitely. W we've done that analysis to tidy analysis of everybody who tracks with chronometer and attaches it to nutrient optimize the uploads for Data. So we've got 90,000 days of micronutrient Data so we have done that analysis and yeah, definitely the sodium magnesium potassium, a really big drivers of hunger. And if you're getting enough of that in your diet, you're satiated and tend to eat less calories overall. So it's definitely a low carb diet people crave. So human are probably, you know, should salt to taste and, and Prioritize getting enough sodium, but yeah, definitely magnesium potassium and basically everything else, especially in the minerals, thrive hunger and get three cholesterol seems to have a positive relationship with a tiny, so if you are getting more food with cholesterol and then you get a three, but then when it comes to saturated, fat sort of has a negative satiety, but then it sort of tapers off.

1 (45m 27s): But then the mono and poly unsaturated fat, basically that those foods just tend to drive overeating. But that's probably because it's, it's all of a seed oils that are in there, the donuts and cookies and everything that comes in to package these days. So yeah, definitely limiting. Those is probably a great hack or the bottom line is anything that comes in a package with a barcode that says flavor number and color number with calories. Then you probably, it is engineered to make it over to it.

0 (45m 56s): Right? Yeah. If you can't pronounce the ingredients, probably be sure to bring it home. Right.

1 (46m 1s): It definitely, it w it was made by a scientist's to make you want to eat more of it. So, yeah, we basically tried to reverse engineer that process to say, what are the foods look like that drive satiety with getting nutrient density and who knew nutrition can be about getting more nutrients in the food you eat, you know?

0 (46m 19s): Yeah. Right. Yeah. The key is, is eating the foods that are most nutrient dense and, you know, less of the foods that are with the polyunsaturated fats and the seals and things like that. If we really do look at it, all the labels, literally, and I talk about this a lot, there are a seed oils, a soybean oil canola in like, I don't even know 80% of the things on the shelf. I don't remember the percentage of it. It's just, yeah. It's well, cause it's cheap and easy. Right. And yeah,

1 (46m 49s): Yeah. Subs a subsidized. So it's just a big agriculture squeezes out at the, the refined sugar starches and see what a, an oil out of all this large agricultural, you know, fueled by fossil fuel fertilizers for that is very unsustainable over the longterm and integrating through the environment. So you are really passionate about regenerative agriculture that Prioritize is growing food that, you know, restore has the environment and restores life, not just animals or plants, but both together in that works in a really an amazing symbiotic relationship.

1 (47m 29s): Was there a big push for

0 (47m 30s): That in Australia? Is that

1 (47m 33s): Yeah, a little, yeah. It was definitely a movement all over the world and what rub off and Diana Rogers I was doing was sacred cow and the books that they did it in the movie, and it was definitely more momentum. And I think hopefully with more awareness of that, more people will go, yeah, I'm going to vote with my dollars and not just buy the most cost effective product as Big ag, which probably isn't good for me. I'm gonna invest in a happy, healthy cows and the plants and, you know, we were everything seeing it alive and you know, that that's likely to produce food. That's going to be more nutritious as well.

0 (48m 11s): Yeah. And I Al I always ask, this is one question to all my guests and I'm sure your shoes probably hit on it already. So what's one tip that for like a middle aged individual man or woman. And if they're looking for, to try to get their body back to what it once was. Cause we, I, I see this a lot, even with myself, you know, I just turned 40, but just gets tougher and tougher to sort of have what you have it, you know, age is a tough thing. Sometimes it is. And, you know, to get your body back is not always that easy. He got to work that much harder, but what would you say would be one tip for that individual now? Wow.

1 (48m 45s): So many in our, I suppose, but it's my journey and why I've created the whole, the whole thing that had to become optimizing nutrition. But thinking about how are you really are hungry, do you need to eat? And the blood sugar hack can be really useful to understand that. And then when you do, Eat try to Prioritize high satiety, nutrient dense food to give your body what it needs at that point. So you are not going to be back again, eating more food, and Get definitely be active in some way, build strengths and try to walk and enjoy it or have fun.

0 (49m 20s): I like that. That's good. That, that summarizes a lot of what we talked about today. Yeah. Well, we're, Marty, where's the best place for people to find you. I know you have optimizing nutrition.com. Would that be your home base?

1 (49m 33s): Yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Or the Data Driven Fasting you can Google that and check it out. And we've got a, a, a a hundred page manual, and I'm a baseline in spreadsheets. If we wanted to check it out and dabble in that, if they've got a blood sugar meter, you can check out and find their baseline.

0 (49m 50s): Yeah. I love that. Well, I appreciate you coming on. We probably could talk for hours. I think we've given the, the, the audience enough to chew on for a little while, but thanks. Marty and yeah. Check them out@optimizingnutrition.com and then the data-driven Fasting challenge is pretty sweet and that's a 30 day challenge. Right?

1 (50m 12s): Cool. Yeah, it definitely, it is not the one kicking off in a 2nd of January, so a perfect time to do it right after we have all a tomato everybody's eating a, of a Thanksgiving and Christmas.

0 (50m 23s): Yeah. That will be a popular one. Awesome. Well, thanks

1 (50m 28s): For coming on. Marty thanks so much. Thanks, Brian. Thanks for

2 (50m 34s): Listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast. I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there, and you've chosen to listen to mind, and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.

Marty Kendall

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