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0 (1s): Coming up on the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast hello? 1 (5s): Okay. So I love seafood fish and seafood. I mean, if you want to, if you want to know, like, what is the very, very best food you can get on this whole PE diet concept? It's basically efficiency food. This is like a super food. A fish has an insanely high satiety per calorie, a insanely high nutrient density and sadly High protein and minerals for the amount of calories you're getting. So that's off the charts. So for me, it's like wild caught salmon and wild caught. She food is just absolutely top of the ultimate Foods pyramids. 1 (49s): Yes, you got it. Anything like that? Sardines is awesome. Clams, mussels, oysters, sardines, any kind of wild caught fish and seafood. Amazing. Definitely top of the list for me. 0 (1m 3s): Hello and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm Brian Gryn. And I'm here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it wants was five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week. I'll give you an in-depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you to long-term sustainable results. In this episode, I interviewed Dr. Ted Naiman he's a board certified Family Medicine physician and co authored the PE Diet Book His personal research and medical practice are focused on the practical implementation of diet and exercise for health optimization. In this interview, we discussed a bunch of different topics. What is energy overload, the importance of protein, fiber, and minerals also Foods to eat, to become satiated. 0 (1m 50s): We also dive into His PE Diet Book the Importance of minerals. His favorite sources of potassium. What's called Carb periodization and his daily diet and fasting routine. We also touch on Exercise 2.0, which is a high intensity, high frequency bodyweight workouts, and his thoughts regarding seafood dairy Foods to avoid and much, much more. So I really enjoyed my Interview with Dr Ted and I know you will too. Thanks so much and enjoy the Episode. All right. Welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. And my guest today, Dr. Ted Naiman is a board certified family medicine physician out of Seattle and also author of the PE Diet. 0 (2m 34s): And we were talking about a bunch of that stuff today. So welcome in doctor Ted. Hey, 1 (2m 38s): Thanks, Fran. Thanks for having me. We can get to talk to you. 0 (2m 41s): Yeah, no, I appreciate you coming on the show and got a lot of topics we're going to talk about because really this podcast is all about helping individuals, you know, get their bodies back to what it once was. And I noticed on your website you've, you've made quite a transformation and your body, maybe tell us the background behind that and how, how and how you got into health and wellness. 1 (3m 4s): Oh yeah. Okay. Sure. So a basically a a my, my background was a mechanical engineering. I got an engineering degree and I'm up here in Seattle and I couldn't really get a job because of a, some Boeing layoffs at the time I graduated. So I just kind of on a whim decided to go to medical school and I was raised a Adventist. So I ended up going to Loma Linda university, which is this sort of famous vegetarian Mecca down in Southern California. And I got a medical degree from Loma Linda, and they have a big health focus. They're a Diet of course it's all plant-based and a little bit weird, but I did come from this sort of a health centric background, but I, I, I noticed that like personally, I never enjoyed really great health, like a w I never had a really good body composition and I never looked or felt any better than anyone else. 1 (4m 1s): Even though on paper, I was following this a vegetarian plant-based diet. That's supposed to be in the very healthiest. And I came from this Loma Linda blue zone, where everybody supposedly lives the longest. And I think what I learned from that is like, Oh, well, Diet, doesn't really matter. Like, who cares? You know, Diet is not that I'm, I'm looking around at all my fellow doctors from Loma Linda who are a plant-based and I'm like, okay, I've got all these people here who go way out of their way to eat the healthiest diet. The plant-based I, their doctors, nobody on earth has more knowledge about Diet then these healthy plant-based doctors in Loma Linda, and none of them look particularly good. 1 (4m 44s): None of them, you know, their health isn't really any better than probably a lot of people. So I, I took away from that, well, diet doesn't really matter. And then I started my residency in family medicine in South Carolina, and I was just a, it was just a deluge of obesity and diabetes, obesity, and diabetes and metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance, and just tons of really bad pathology. And I was still thinking, well, you know, this is mostly genetic. These people just have all their parents' are diabetic. Both of your parents are obese. There's an 80% chance. You're going to be a, to B, both of your parents have type two. 1 (5m 25s): Diabetes is there is an 80% chance you're going to have a type two diabetes. And so I'm like, okay, Diet, it doesn't matter. It's mostly genetics or supposed to feel sorry for these people and just give them more insulin. And then I had a patient who, and this was about a, in the late nineties, Oh, this is like 20, a little over 20 years ago. This patient came in and he had gone on like an Atkins diet. And he, he told me, wow, I lost 30 pounds in it. It felt really, I wasn't that hungry. And it was effortless that I stopped taking off my meds. My blood pressure is fine and my blood sugar is fine. And this is just blew me away. 1 (6m 6s): And I was like, wow, here's this guy who, you know, he wasn't raised plant base. He didn't go to this ivory tower medical school with this, you know, academic plant-based Diet message. He, he just like read a $5 paper back from Dr. Atkins. And I managed to cure his type two diabetes. And this blew me away. I'm like, wow. You know, maybe, maybe I've got it all wrong. Maybe Diet really is important. And maybe I just haven't cracked the code yet. Right. And then I started really paying a lot of attention to all the patients I was seeing. And I'm like, wow, what really is the difference between the super helpful people IC and the super unhealthy people? 1 (6m 53s): I see. And I started asking a lot of questions. I'm like, you know, what's your diet like, you know, what are you, what are your eating? What is your, what's your Exercise like? And I realized that a lot of these are big differences that I was seeing in, in my patients and my clients were just diet and exercise. And, and it was really, really mind-blowing to me. And so I started researching and I'm, you know, I'm the oldest hell. So this is back in the day, or we didn't even have, like, you know, you can just do a pub med search. Like I actually had to look up articles and such, I just started researching everything I could find. And pretty much for the past 20 years I've been researching anything I could find on diet and exercise in health and health outcomes. 1 (7m 40s): And I think that this is culminated into the, the book I wrote last year, the PE Diet, which is basically just everything I've gleaned from diet and exercise over the years, working with patients to try and things, myself researching the primary medical literature, and, you know, that's, this is kind of where I've ended up. And it's just been a really interesting journey. And I certainly don't feel like I've arrived yet. It's just a constant process of like learning and, you know, I I've changed over the years and iterated, but I'm, I'm constantly trying to basically do the best I can with the knowledge I have so far. You know what I mean? 0 (8m 22s): Yeah. I mean, I think it's a great first and foremost, I mean, we can learn a lot from our clients. I sort of had the same, like, same thing happened to me. A client of mine was like pre-diabetic and she started getting into fasting. And that was something that, you know, I didn't know him that much about, I mean, I know, you know, the major religions were, you know, using fasting for many years for a long time, but I was like, wow, you can actually do this to help, you know, help help yourself. And she was, pre-diabetic all your numbers came back to normal. And I was like, I've got to learn about this. And I noticed some of your writings. I think she read a lot. You did a, a nice PDF of intermittent fasting. 0 (9m 3s): I noticed, I don't know how long ago you wrote that, but I noticed that on your website, is that something that you you've focused on with your clients as well, along with like, you know, obviously how to, how to eat correctly? 1 (9m 16s): Yeah. I mean, I love intermittent fasting, but for me, fasting is definitely on a U shaped curve where I feel if people push it too far, then they're just super, super hungry and they eat all of this energy dense food afterwards and to gain. So I see that I see people who rely on fasting too much, just gaining and losing and gaining and losing the same five pounds over and over again. And so I don't like extended fasting. I don't like overleveraging fasting, but like a, a certain amount of fasting I think is awesome. It's amazing. I mean, it gets people in touch with a hunger and fullness and it gets people less glucose dependent on, on exogenous carbohydrates. 1 (10m 2s): And you get really good at living off your own store and buying for that to kind of, of, of lawyers supposed to. But there's definitely this, a sweet spot to it. I think where you have two, it's a little different for everyone. And I have to find out where that is. And it's, you know, somewhere between one in 24 hours a day is probably average for most people with highly variable, you know, results. And it kind of depends on the person and the way the rest of their diet is, but it's definitely a really good tool in a toolbox. It, everybody should be trying out at least a little bit. I think you're just leaving money on the table if you're not exploring that. 0 (10m 42s): I completely agree. I think, like you said, everyone's different. I mean, when I first started, I just simply moved back breakfast an hour and just like, my goal was just to gradually push it back till about noon. And then, you know, once you get comfortable with that and you sort of see where you're at, you know, am I happy to have I read to reach my health goals and, and then you can sort of adjust it from there, but I agree it is a tool that everyone should use utilize. And yeah, no, I completely agree. I noticed that you talk a lot about like Energy overload and I was curious, I wanted to sort of touch on that. What, w w what would you say your definition of that is? 1 (11m 24s): Okay, so all of these chronic degenerative diseases that we have that are related to hyperinsulinemia, you know, a metabolic syndrome, insulin Resistance high insulin levels, these are all really caused by having too much energy in your body. You've literally tried to store too much energy. Now, a human story, you know, the vast majority of their energy over nine, 9% is fat. So you really have too much fat in your body. 0 (11m 50s): We're going to say, is that a nice way of saying of too much bad energy overload? Yeah. 1 (11m 54s): You're just basically too fat. I'll just come out and say it. But even someone who looks thin and someone who's skinny fat, if they have elevated fasting insulin levels, and if they have the other hallmarks of metabolic syndrome, they're just completely over fat. And they've literally tried to store too much energy I'm in the form of fat. And so you fill up your subcutaneous fat cells, and then that spills over into visceral fat and ectopic fat. And the reason your insulin is high all the time is because you have no place to put incoming energy. So all of your cells are refusing fat. Energy, you've maybe expanded your fat cells maximally, and you, you have all this energy circulating in your bloodstream all the time. 1 (12m 38s): That could be triglycerides in glucose, and you just don't have any place to put it. And this is just plain and simple Energy Toxicity and you simply develop Energy Toxicity if the amount of energy in your food is out of proportion to the satiety in that food, which is mostly protein and fiber and minerals. So you strip the Energy out of Foods carbs and fats eat too many of those without enough satiety, which is protein and fiber minerals. And then, you know, do that for a couple of days, weeks, months, years, and next thing you know, you've tried to store too much energy into your body, and you're still hungry. 1 (13m 18s): And then you have, you know, hyperinsulinemia metabolic syndrome, prediabetes diabetes, the whole spectrum of chronic degenerative C is that I've labeled Energy Toxicity in the, in the book. 0 (13m 32s): Yeah. And it's interesting because you always, we talk about society and it's such like an important thing, especially, you know, if you, if your eating the right foods and your fasting, you know, your Gryn, if you're not going to eat your next meal for five, six, seven, eight hours, it's so important to have satiety, what would you say is the main hallmark behind, you know, having satiety in and where, what kind of foods would you recommend? 1 (13m 56s): Well, so, so in, in the book, we kind of talk about the different forms of hungers, right? There's a, there's a nutrient hunt. Humans have a specific appetite for a, basically four things, protein and carbs, fat and minerals is specifically sodium and calcium. So you really have specific targeted appetites for, you know, the three macronutrients, as well as the minerals, like sodium and calcium. And if your not getting enough, have any of these things, you're going to have this weird nutrient hunger where you just, you're just gonna eat more and tell you, get these proteins, probably one of the strongest hungers of all. 1 (14m 36s): And so if, if you didn't get enough protein, you're basically just gonna eat and eat and eat until you do get enough protein. And that's why going out of your way to target things like protein and minerals right off the bat. I think at least for a lot less downstream hunger. And then once you've kind of gotten that nutrient hunger out of the way, then you can be in a much better place to evaluate whether you have Energy hunger or not like if you're actually hungry for Energy calories. And then that can be further subdivided into, are you hungry for glucose? Because you're used to just eating carbs at times a day, three, a hundred grams, every two hours, and your blood sugar is rising and falling over and over, and you can kind of feel this. 1 (15m 21s): And so you're just hungry for some like some cornflakes versus actually needing more energy glibly in your body, whether it's glucose or not. You know what I mean? So there are these different levels of, of hunger. And the goal is to try to satisfy those in an order that sets you up for success. So like you target protein first and protein and minerals, In protein, minerals, and fiber, because humans just eat a certain way to food every day. And no matter how many calories are in it. So your eating foods, a lot of protein, fiber water minerals, your making sure that your not glucose dependent with some sort of either cyclical, keto, diet, or intermittent fasting or something. 1 (16m 5s): So you're not as glucose dependent as most people. And then you're a lot in a lot better place to tell if you're really hungry for just calories for just energy. Right. You know, like, do I really need that MCT oil and that pre-workout dextrose, you know, or just some sort of pure Energy thing. You're in a lot better place to know if you're hungry for that after you've satisfied all these other societies. And we kind of lay that out in the book is as well. 0 (16m 33s): Yeah. And I'm curious is when, as far as minerals is that simply adding just like a quality salt to your meals or how, how would you obtain getting those minerals? 1 (16m 44s): So mostly you had to obtain them from a real food. I'm not a huge supplement fan. I don't recommend any supplementation. I do put salt on my food, which is probably a sodium supplement, but I don't use a ton of salt. And I'm actually more worried about potassium and magnesium intakes in most people. And, and you really do want to get that from real food, because we know from studies that it's superior to get these from real food, then taking them in a supplement form. Okay. 0 (17m 17s): Oh no, go ahead. I was going to say potassium. We were, would you say a good place to get potassium from? 1 (17m 22s): Right. So potassium is in meat, animal products have potassium in them and you also get a lot of potassium in certain plant foods. Like your avocado has a lot of potassium and it, and you know, I, I personally like low sugar fruit. I like green vegetables. I like fish and seafood, which is amazing. And those are my favorite sources 0 (17m 46s): Sources. Okay. So also, I, I noticed you talk a little bit about seasonal eating. Is that something that you do yourself and that you teach your clients 1 (17m 57s): Well? So what I like is some sort of carbohydrate Periodization right. So my theory is that, you know, humans maybe didn't have access to a carbohydrate in a 24 seven, three 65. And we see animals living in the wild, they'll have a, a, a, a colder season or a range of your season or a darker season, or a season will have a son. And then the foods they're eating are lower in carbohydrate. So like, you know, you look at the, you know, if you look at your average gorilla or something, there's a rainy season where they are eating way more leaves. And the Protein percentage of their diet is a lot, a lot higher. 1 (18m 40s): And the carbohydrate content of Diet is a lot lower, and they're literally getting thinner. They're they have a higher lean mass to fat mass in their body composition. And then they'll have a, a, a season of like a fruiting season where there's tons of fruit and they get tons of carbs and tons of sugar and the Protein Energy ratio, their Diet falls, and they gain a lot more body will maybe not lot, but they gave more body fat. And there's this sort of seasonality based on the amount of energy, your environment, which is a direct reflection of the amount of solar energy hitting the earth in your environment in recent months. 1 (19m 20s): So there, there, there, there's clearly some sort of period of time where humans have higher dietary Energy and lower dietary Energy from an evolutionary perspective, you know, like in the winter time, you're just not getting a lot of plant carbohydrates. The animals that you are killing and eating are a lot thinner because they themselves are looking for more dietary Energy from the environment. So your getting a lot higher protein Energy ratio, it's basically lower Carb and lower fat. And then there are times, you know, autumn where you just have tons and tons of you got animals are all really fat because they had a lot of plant foods maybe, or a divorce. And they, so you are getting more dietary failure. 1 (20m 2s): I also get a lot more dietary carbs from plans. And so I like some sort of Periodization. And so, and for myself, what I do is I periodized carbs and I'm actually doing a cyclical, ketogenic diet where I'm eating carbohydrate, just kind of maybe once a day in the evening. And so like 0 (20m 22s): With type of Carb do prefer in the evening, 1 (20m 25s): Fruit is definitely my favorite. So I'm just eating completely unlimited amounts of green vegetables, any sort of non starchy, vegetable, unlimited amounts of low sugar, fruit, even some, maybe some higher sugar fruit and some tubers possibly. 0 (20m 42s): So when you say low sugar for your meeting, like the, mainly the berries, low sugar fruit would be 1 (20m 48s): Cucumbers, tomatoes, peppers, all avocados berries, a higher sugar fruit would be like, just like a banana or a citrus or an Apple or something like that. And I'm basically eating, you know, unlimited amounts of low sugar fruit, and then maybe not unlimited, but some, you know, a higher sugar fruit. 0 (21m 11s): Gotcha. And you didn't normally eat two meals a day or three, or how do you sort of space your day out? 1 (21m 16s): Well, my favorite is this is a 16, eight intermittent fast skipping breakfast. So I basically eat lunch and dinner every day in roughly an eight hour window. And I might throw a snack in there somewhere, depending on how hungry I am or how active I am, or how many calories I burn during cardio or whatever. So it's like a two meals and a snack, maybe kind of thing in eight hour windows. It's just extremely typical for me. Usually the carbs are back loaded. So first meal, I might have no, hardly any, you know, net carbs. It might be a, just a egg scramble with some, the flavor of veggies in there, like peppers and mushrooms and onions or something like that. 1 (21m 58s): And then in the evening, almost like dessert I'll have more carbohydrate, I'll have berries or something like that. 0 (22m 4s): Yeah. Yeah. You know, I used to have like this big salad in the middle of the day and put, like, I was more of like a pest pescatarian for a while, and now I've sort of actually, ever since the quarantine started, I, I started going to meet and it's amazing, you know, good grass fed grass, finished meat and gotten away from the plants. And it is amazing adding and all that. I needed that Protein, I mean, I'm active and I'm, I've been lifting for over 20 years and, and I just felt like my body was sort of falling behind a little bit. And the, the, the increase in protein is a game changer. And, and definitely, I agree, as far as yeah, if I'm going to have some carbs, I'll back load them because I don't, you know, you don't want to eat two close to when you go to sleep, but, but in the middle of the day, you wanna sort of stay in if you could stay in ketosis. 0 (22m 56s): Right. And, and, and, and have, you know, things that are higher Protein and maybe moderate fat's in the middle of the day. I found that effective for me. 1 (23m 5s): Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like we're doing kind of a similar thing, right? 0 (23m 8s): Oh yeah. And I, and I, and I agree, I, I mainly do the same type of window sometimes I'll shrink it a little bit and, and depending on my activity level as well, do you do cardio, do you do any Resistance training as well? 1 (23m 21s): Yeah, so I, I love calisthenics. I'm like a calisthenics fanatic, and I like to train daily. What's that? 0 (23m 31s): Exercise 2.0, right. I noticed that your website. 1 (23m 34s): Oh, right, right, right. Well, yeah. I don't know if you, in the book, we basically break down how to do a full body resistance, calisthenics workout, push, pull your legs, you know, just body with almost no equipment, maybe something to pull on. And I'm really into intensity. So I like maximizing intensity. I'm really into frequencies. So I'm like doing a full body to failure daily, or maybe a week, every other day, intensity maxed out frequency pretty high, but the volume is tiny. So like, I might only work out, you know, five minutes a day, maybe 15 at the most. 1 (24m 13s): And it's just, the intensity is really high I'm trading intensity for, for volume basically. 0 (24m 20s): And that's interesting that you mentioned that because that's like a common theme I'm getting interviewing people like yourself and Brad Kearns and some other people, like, it's not necessarily about like, I, I was a little bit old school in a sense, because I've lifted for a long time and, and, you know, an hour, hour and a half and the gym, and, and like now these like micro workouts are, are becoming a big thing. And I also think, you know, like you have sort of like an at home, you could, you know, body, weight, workouts and stuff. I think that's becoming obviously a really popular because gym, some gyms aren't even opening, but the, but how did you get into sort of like these micro workouts? 0 (25m 2s): And I, and, and I think it's great in a sense that, you know, it's, it's so easy to stay consistent that way. Right. 1 (25m 10s): Right. Right. So the way I came up with this, so I realized that, you know, building muscle, you're, you're creating this functional tissue, it's an adaptation to a stress you put on your body. And then I'm like, well, there's gotta be an optimal frequency for this. Right. And it's kind of like, it's sorta like calluses on your hands if you're digging ditches or pigmented on your skin, if your getting a tan. Right. And then, you know, if you imagine that, you know, once a week, every two weeks, you just laid in the sun for like six hours and then just blistered yourself, head to toe, and then just didn't go out in the sun for the next two weeks versus, you know, like 15 minutes a day, you know, which is going to give you the better tan. 1 (25m 58s): Or if your honor, if you just dug out a hundred ditches all day, once a month, until your hands are like bleeding versus like, okay, one ditch every day, right. It seems like these people who do stuff daily get some really solid muscle growth, you know, like your gymnast and your power lifters and people who have high frequency of training have excellent results. And I think that there's so many benefits to high frequency, you know, first of all, there's the practicing the movement, right? So let's say I just workout once a week. And I do my handstand pushups. I mean, the, the first year of doing that once a week, I'm going to struggle just with my form. 1 (26m 43s): And it feels like in the mind muscle connection and just getting the movement pattern down. But if I'm doing that every day, or even twice a day, I'm really going to progress, progress with my, with my form and with my technique and with my mind muscle connection and with my ability to maximally engage the muscles. And so there are these neuromuscular benefits, you get to a higher frequency, right? So I, so I love this high frequency approach. I think intensity is the most important factor when it comes to Resistance. Exercise like if you have some pink weights and you do a, a thousand curls a day for the rest of your life, your bicep circumference is never, ever going to increase right. 1 (27m 26s): Ever at all. So, so in Tennessee just has to be a top. It has to be number one, I like high frequency. And it makes sense to me, if you're trying to get this functional, adaptive, a tissue buildup, you know what I mean? That's gonna be basically an, a, a positive adaptation to, to a stress. You, you want a, like a little bit on a really regular basis. And that's how I kind of came up with this like whole body daily or every other day with a very high intensity. It just, it feels natural to me. It makes a lot of sense to me. I see a lot more people going in this direction. It's a lot easier to, to do, if you can do it at home with no equipment. 1 (28m 8s): Cause it's not realistic for most people to go to the gym, you know, every day or every other day, and to a full body workout with all these, you know, the squat rack and the machines in the Bar bells and all of this stuff. So I'm just trying to replicate that with body weight. It takes 0 (28m 23s): The excuses out, right? 1 (28m 25s): Yeah, it really does. And yeah, 0 (28m 27s): Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was going to say, I mean, Hey, 10 minutes and you know, full body workout, you know, you really, you know, cause the number and excuses, they don't have time. Well, throw that out the door, you know, 1 (28m 39s): And then in the book we we've, you know, we break it down into, there's just really the three basic movements you have to do with Resistance and that's push, pull and legs. Right. And even that can be subdivided into little micro workout, so you can space out throughout the day. So like you could just drop to the floor right now and do a push routine that would take, you know, two minutes and just completely friar pushing muscles. And then later, you know, when your, at the park or something, you can do your polling when you have something to hang in front of her, pull on. And so we're just trying to just break Exercise down into the absolute minimum effective dose. 1 (29m 20s): And it's all about a sustainability and tiny time commitment in tiny investments in money. And basically, how can you get it done with the very least money, the very least time at the very least motivation, no barriers to entry. And when we talk 0 (29m 40s): About intensity to, you know, if you're know you're doing something for only 10 minutes, and then it's like, okay, I'm just gonna go full bore and, and be done. Like, you know, if you have an hour and hour and a half to, to, to spirit a workout, then you are going to be like, well, you know, maybe I don't need to be that intense with my workouts, you know, but I think it's a mindset thing too. 1 (30m 2s): Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, I watch people, you know, in the gym sometimes, and I'm sure they could compress their hour of just wandering around into seven minutes, you know, like what we're doing in the Book, if they're just really maxing out the intensity, dial two 11, if you know what I mean? 0 (30m 21s): Yeah. Have you, have you messed around with any, a resistance bands? Cause that was something I've gotten into in, during the quarantine and I I've, I've gotten some good benefits from that. 1 (30m 32s): I've tried Resistance bands. I'm not a huge fan for me. It, it doesn't really fit the, like the strength curve of your muscles and the Resistance band. It doesn't really fit for me. Like if I'm doing pushups with a resistance band, you know, I want the highest Resistance when the, like my pecs are maximally stretched, like in the down position. And that's when I get the lowest Resistance from the back. And so I, I really don't like that. And I'm going to be honest, I'm not a huge Resistance band 0 (31m 7s): Okay. To each his own. Right. You know, I've been using those and you know, Dr. John and yeah, I will say I, yeah, I I've gotten great results from it and I'm not, not sore. And my, and it's a lot easier on my joints, but yeah. I mean, you can do effective things like you mentioned, and just using bodyweight as well. It just think it depends, you know, for me, I've been lifting weights for so long that like, this is sort of like just, Oh, sort of a, a new thing for me. And it's, it's nice to sort of mix it up and have something completely different as well. So, well, we got Exercise 2.0, so high-intensity body weight exercises. We talked a little bit about, you know, Diet Diet to point out, right. 0 (31m 49s): Which is mainly, and I know this is in the book a lot too increase protein and fiber. What do you say to, I know there's some advocates out there that don't really think that fibers, that Nessus is that necessary. W what is your thought around fight your fiber? 1 (32m 7s): So really, really big picture. You're going to get the best success when you have the very highest satiety per calorie, right? So like, you know, 91% of humans on earth are over fat, and we have this just avalanche of obesity and diabetes and metabolic syndrome in chronic degenerative diseases. And let's say, I can give you a food. That's just this big right on, you know, you know, I'm holding my hands up and it's like a one cube. And let's say you eat that and you get a whole day's worth of satiety. And it's like 50 calories, right? 1 (32m 47s): So super, super insanely high satiety per calorie that is going to get you the very most success when it comes to fat loss and improving your body composition and reversing all of this stuff. And so the number one most important factor in everybody's diet in the modern diabetes, you have denic is to tidy per calorie. You want the highest longterm to tidy. You can possibly Get for the very few calories. You always get that with foods that are higher in protein and fiber and lower in carbs and fats. And so I know it's, it's super popular to just like be pure carnivore and be super extreme. 1 (33m 30s): Everyone's like, Oh, I'm going to shave my carbs to zero. I'm going to shave my plant Foods to zero. And I'm going to just eat cubes of raw pork fat. That's going to be my whole diet forever. Right. But the problem is you're leaving a lot of really low satiety for calorie foods on the table. Like a, you know, your green vegetables have just insanely high satiety per calorie. And a, I mean, look at the Kevin Hall study that he recently did looking at, you know, a plan, a low fat plant based diet versus a low carb animal-based diet. Right. And the, the plant-based people just automatically ate 500 less calories today. 1 (34m 11s): Now, why did they do that? Is it because plants are a magic is because animals are bad. Is it because low-fat is better than a low carb? No, it's none of that stuff. It really just came down to energy density of the foods and satiety per calorie, the plant, the salad, they were feeding. Those people had less than half the energy density of the like heavy cream and oil, they were giving the keto side. So it turns out that green vegetables are just a really cheap and easy way to get extremely high satiety per calorie. And so I like that, and I think is probably a mistake to completely eliminate it for you. No, unless you have a really, really good reason, 0 (34m 53s): Right? Like sometime some type of like underlying issue. Right. Right. You know, so is there a, is there a, a, a food that you recommend that like your favorite food that you like to have, that's like a staple in your diet? 1 (35m 9s): Well, okay. So I love seafood fish and seafood. I mean, if you want to, if you want to know, like, what is the very, very best food you can get on this whole PE Diet Book concept, it's basically efficiency food. This is like a super food. A fish has an insanely high satiety per calorie, a insanely high nutrient density, insanely high protein and minerals for the amount calories you're getting. So that's off the charts. So for me, it's like wild caught salmon and wild-caught seafood is just absolutely top of the ultimate Foods pyramids. 1 (35m 53s): Yes. You got it. Anything like that? Sardines is awesome. Clams, mussels, oysters, sardines, any kind of wild caught fish and seafood. Amazing. Definitely top of the list for me. 0 (36m 7s): What about dairy? What are your thoughts on dairy? 1 (36m 10s): And Gary's interesting, right, Gary, you know, humans, we use technology to feed ourselves and we invented agriculture as a way to grow plants and get way more carbohydrates, increase the energy in our diet, and we domesticated animals and we've figured out, Hey, if you feed an animal really well and keep it sheltered, it's a whole life, its a lot faster and you can add a lot more energy to your diet just instantly is an incident when, and then when we invented the dairy agriculture, it's like, Oh Hey you you've, you've got this animal that the very highest energy density part of the animal is the milk. 1 (36m 51s): It produces its very high end lactose for milk sugar in milk fat because its trying to concentrate Energy and pass it on to its offspring to turn a baby cow into a giant cow as fast as possible. So Melk is actually an extremely high energy food and it's actually a very low in Protein to Energy ratio. The Protein percentage of milk is fairly low. It has good protein in it. But what it really has is a lot of good carbs and fats, milk, sugar and milk fat. So this is a 0 (37m 21s): Like I'm sorry, like whole milk. We would say right about raw milk. If you could get that right 1 (37m 27s): Milk, I'm talking about raw milk, whole milk, milk, milk. It's basically just one of the highest energy density foods. You can get it. It's one of the few Foods in nature that have carbs and fats in it together, which we know drives over eating and most omnivore mammals. And so you're just going to eat the hell out of it and it's going to fatten you up really rapidly. And so this is a food that's very high quality and nutrition, right? The carbs and the fats and the protein are designed for mammals. So we know it's the one food on earth that we know is actually designed for mammals to eat. But it's also designed for mammals to overeat and to gain mass are really rapidly on. 1 (38m 7s): So my thoughts on dairy are what if we could take the good parts of dairy, but leave behind some of the Energy because everybody's already Energy toxic. Right? Which is why I like any dairy that's lower in carbs or lower in fat or ideally lower in Book. So fermented dairy is awesome because all of the lactose is gone. Bacteria have consumed at all and left behind lactic acid, something like that. I also like ultra filtered, dairy something that's lower in fat, lower in carbs, lower in lactose, which is a lot of people don't tolerate. So any kind of low carbon, low fat dairy. 1 (38m 48s): I like, I like whey powder. I like like a Fairlife milk. I like a cottage cheese. I like Greek yogurt is awesome. And if you're already too fat, you literally want a low fat version of these. If you're trying to lose fat, you want a low fat cottage cheese or a low fat, plain Greek yogurt or some sort of fermented dairy. That's going to be low carb and low fat, a lot lower energy. What are you left with all the protein and the minerals and the nutrients it's phenomenal. So I'm a big fan of dairy. And I also think this is another example of where processed foods, the whole concept of the food being processed, making it bad, I think is really not accurate because humans, we basically evolve to eat processed and cooked foods. 1 (39m 43s): Humans are QC of ours, which means we process and cook all our food to extract maximum nutrient density out of it. We've been doing that for a millennia. You know, we a butcher, an animal and then cook the meat and we get a much higher nutrient yield and nutrient density. And we take plant foods and we'll ferment them. We'll soak them a little sprout them. We'll crush them. We'll grind them. We're doing all of this process thing to maximize nutrient density and nutrient absorption and nutrient yield. And so cooking and processing is essential to what made us human. That's where we traded off these giant brains in these are fairly small GI tracks and you have to do that to have optimum success as a homosapien. 1 (40m 28s): So I actually like things like processed dairy because I think this is where at one place where Technology and food processing has increased nutrient density versus some other areas where food processing has decreased nutrient density. That's where we just suck all the carbs and fats out of a food and just add empty calorie. Energy that's your sugar, your flour and your oil. We took a food. We stripped out all of the car, hydrocarbons and carbohydrates, basically just the pure chains of Carb and high energy bonds. And now you've got like cookies in short bread and cakes and stuff. It's just basically sure if our oil pure energy with none of the society, 0 (41m 12s): Right. Actually that led right to my next question. Cause we're talking about things to eat and then things to not eat. What would you say will be the biggest things? Obviously you just sort of set them, but to not to, to avoid. Cause sometimes that's easier for people. If you just eliminate the things that you don't want to eat, it can sort of, you know, that's, it could be a big list, but it can help sort of simplify things as far as Diet is concerned. 1 (41m 36s): Right. Right. Right. So, so in this whole PE Diet concept. What we're really down on is refined carbs and refined fats. So, you know, a lot of people are afraid of carbs. And so they'll say, well, I'm not going to eat an Apple because that's Carb and I'm not going to eat a fruit. Cause that's Carb and I'm not going to eat certain like a potato because that's the carbs. I think that's a wrong approach because those are actually low carb carbs. All of those carbs, your fruit in your apples and your potatoes, they have so much fiber and water and their, their, the, the energy density is so low. The amount of actual Carb you get is so low that it's not that big a deal. 1 (42m 18s): What you really want to be afraid of is your high carb carbs. That's your refined carbs is your sugar and your flour, the amount of actual carbohydrate you're getting per unit of food, weight or volume, or however you want to measure it is off the charts for these refined ones. So the car, if you wanted to be afraid of are refined carbs, you wanted to be afraid of your high carb carbs, not your low carb carbs, which is your fruit in your tubers. Same thing with fat. Like everyone's like, Oh, I'm not going to eat an egg or an avocado or a piece of meat because that's way too much fat. Well, these foods have so much protein and minerals in water and other stuff in them that they're actually low fat fats. The fats you need to be afraid of are the refined fats, like your butter and your heavy cream and your oil. 1 (43m 2s): And if you actually look at how many grants you're getting for the unit of food, it's just ridiculously high. So, so, you know, Carb, this has, you have to look at the energy density and how refined it is, and you have to stay away from the high, fat, fast, which are they refined, concentrated fads that are low in protein and water and minerals. And that's your, you know, all your find stuff that your, your oil, your butter, your heavy cream, 0 (43m 28s): What do you like to look like with then? I'm sorry to interrupt, but what do you like to cook with them? 1 (43m 32s): I like to cook with a avocado oil. I do actually cook with some sort of butter or oil. I just try to keep the quantities low. If you're really, really getting aggressive with shaving down fat grams, I like an avocado oil spray or something like that. You know, a non-stick pan and avocado oil spray spray. You don't have to cook with a ton of fat. I do recommend, you know, cooking a lot of foods with a lot, with some fat and you never want to go to zero on any of these macros, but you definitely don't have to deep prior everything and soybean oil and you know, and just try to eat a whole ton of fat that's. So yeah, I, I do think that, you know, all of this is again on a U shaped curve or where you don't want to shake your fat to zero, for sure. 1 (44m 19s): But you want it to be mindful of these high fat fats, like your refined fats. 0 (44m 24s): Right. Which seems to be flooding the market, like adding fats to everything. And I think you've gotta sort of find balance. And what about like insulin spikes? You know, glucose spikes. I was just, I just boar a CGM for a couple of weeks just to see how Foods impacted my blood sugar. And so you talk about carbs and things like potatoes and things like that. Is that something that you look and do with your clients are for yourself? 1 (44m 52s): Yeah. And, and unfortunately there's a L there's a really bad trend I see out there right now. So everyone's got a CGM, right? I'm wearing a CGM, your wearing a CGM. All my patients have CGMs and we're all just fetishizing, the perfectly flat CGM, right? It's like, Oh, wow, look, I eat an Apple. And I got a big spike and that's why I'm never gonna eat an Apple again. Instead, I'm just going to eat three pounds of macadamia nuts. And you don't and you get this perfectly flat thing. But what you don't see is the next day, the baseline just went up a little bit and I need to 24 hours a day, your blood sugars, two points higher than it was because of all of the fat that you eat. 1 (45m 35s): And what people don't get is that the fatter you are the higher, your baseline sugar is all the time. You know what I mean? So if I just eat nothing but butter, I will never get a spike for my CGM, but I will be hungry. I will eat more calories. I will basically end up being fatter, the protein energy ratio in my body. It's going to go to down. And then my baseline, my basal insulin, my Bazell glucose, my A1C, everything is going to creep up a little bit. I'll have a slightly higher triglycerides, blood sugar, insulin, glucose, A1C, anything you can measure. I'll never see a spike on the flattest CGM curve you've ever seen. 1 (46m 16s): I'll be posted on Instagram. I'll be like, look at that. We're going to look at it. All of these morons eating an Apple because they got this bag. And then the reality is these spikes don't really matter. Right? When I do high intensity exercise, I can get a huge spike in glucose, a diabetic spike. Does that mean that I should never Exercise hell no. I mean like Exercise does all this bad stuff to you. It's very inflammatory it. Tears, your muscles raises inflammation, spikes your blood sugar, dumps all of this glycogen from your liver. It does all of this stuff that could be thought of as bad, you know? And in the end you're actually way better off. 1 (46m 57s): It makes you way, way better. And so I, I don't want anyone to eat to their glucometer and to be just terrified of these, but it's different if you're a type one diabetic. Now, if you're a type one diabetic, because we don't have an artificial pancreas yet that dumps insulin out right next to your liver, where it's supposed to. And instead you're having to inject insulin way out in the periphery under your skin. There's no good way to deal with carbs. So your type one diabetics, yes, it should be on the lowest Carb diet. They can stand. But for anybody, with a guy with functioning pancreas, you really shouldn't be afraid of these spikes. You shouldn't be completely terrified of them. You, I almost cringe when people slap the TGM on because it's going to drive them to make it's good to drive them crazy. 1 (47m 47s): And they're going to make dietary choices that do not necessarily give them the highest satiety for calories. 0 (47m 54s): You know, the interesting thing I learned, I had it on for two weeks and it was, I liked it. I think that it could drive you a little bit crazy. I, I did notice that I was more aware of, of, of like inputting the foods that I had and, and, and how that affected me. But like you said, it's more about sort of that average of what your insulin is throughout the day, because, you know, it's like, if you get spikes, that's fine. As long as it comes back to the norm. Right, 1 (48m 25s): Right. I'm more worried about people's Bazell than their spikes, to be honest, I really am. 0 (48m 33s): Is there anything else that you, any other markers that you look at for individuals other than perhaps, you know, obviously fasting insulin, anything else? 1 (48m 42s): I mean, my, my favorite thing out there is waist circumference. Like this is just a amazing measurement. I mean, it tracks almost perfectly linearly with fasting insulin and overall insulin sensitivity and a waste conference, or even better yet a waist to height ratio is a, a, a, just a phenomenal marker of how healthy you are and metabolically, and to me, it's so much more important than weight. Yeah. It's very simple. It's free. 0 (49m 11s): Right. So is that because of the visceral fat? Just right. Yeah. 1 (49m 16s): Yeah. The, the more visceral fat you're going to have, the, just the bigger your waist circumference right. In the belly button, it was going to be, and that's, that's why it remains a pretty good metric even to people who are visibly fairly Lean and quote-unquote is skinny fat. So I love waster conference. I could probably replace half the labs I ever do with just a simple waster conference. I mean, the, these things are really, I mean, just basically how you look in the mirror, your wastes to a conference. I think it's more important than a weight. 0 (49m 50s): I agree. I mean, how you feel, its like the whole BMI thing is, is just junk. Yeah. 1 (49m 56s): BMI is, is it's it's helpful on a population level and on an individual level it's just trash it's total trash. 0 (50m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. How you feel, how you look, I mean, I weigh, I weigh one 70, but like you wouldn't, you know, you, you might guess like, Oh are you the way the one 50, but why don't we, we want 70. Cause you know, a lot of it's muscle, he's just a tall, I think that's, you know that that's obviously a, a, a good thing just to ha you know, how you look, how you feel in a waist. Circumference is a big deal. I wanted to ask for a few more questions, fit in a lot of good stuff. Who is your biggest influence in your life and, and, and how did they sort of influence you to, to get you into where you're at? 1 (50m 36s): Wow. Well, yeah. Okay. And this whole like diet and exercise and nutrition realm, the big influences, Mark Sisson. I love his approach. You know, looking at everything through an ancestral lens makes a lot of sense to me when it comes to Exercise Dr. Doug McGuff super awesome guy, really just body by science. Amazing. Book really eye opener for me. Yeah. Those are probably some of my bigger diet and exercise influences, right? 0 (51m 6s): Yeah. Yeah. For so many great things about Mark Sisson, you're not the first person to say that they helped influence their, their trajectory in health. And then a question that I ask all my guests is what would it be? And it's a bit of a loaded question, but one tip for individuals to help get their body back to what it once was. 'cause I just find that it's a common theme you get into your even thirties or forties or fifties and sixties. And you're like, God, 10 years go by. What, what, what the heck happened? What would be, you know, one tip you'd give to that individual to help get their body back to what it once was. 1 (51m 44s): Just, if you could only do one thing to maximally improve your body composition, it would be replace all your carbs with protein. 0 (51m 56s): Okay. 1 (51m 56s): Yeah. Like if I, if I could only give everybody one thing to do is to replace your carbs with protein and you're done, that's basically just hitting the wind button. That's a finish line right there in, in one, in one step at a pretty much, 0 (52m 9s): You know, and I liked that because I'm always, I'm all, I'm all about keeping things simple and you know, we got the new year coming up, so that would be a great thing just to go into the new year and just replace all your, your carbs with a high quality protein. Right, right. Awesome. Well, we would be a great place for people to find you. I knew, I know, obviously with your book, the PE Diet Book w what's your website? 1 (52m 34s): Oh, well I have a website, a burn fat, not sugar.com, but probably my best, my best sources of information is the Book the PE diet and you can buy it at the PE Diet dot com or it's pretty much a In most, you know, it's on Amazon and Barnes and noble on all of these bookstores, but yeah, the PE Diet dot com has a good place to pick up the book. That's probably my best work so far. And, you know, personally, I'm on Twitter at Ted Naiman and I'm on all of the socials 0 (53m 8s): With that handled. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on. This is a lot of knowledge packed in, so I appreciate you coming on Dr Ted Oh, thanks for having me. All right. We'll have a great day. Thanks for listening to the Get Lean Eat Clean Podcast 2 (53m 26s): I understand there are millions of other podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine. We appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned in this episode, feel free to subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or family member. That's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again, and have a great day.