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episode #272

Carnivore vs. Carbs Debate: Dr. Anthony Chaffee and Georgi Dinkov!

July 24, 2023 in Podcast


This week I hosted a friendly debate between Bioenergetic Health Researcher, Georgi Dinkov and the Neurosurgeon Carnivore, Dr. Anthony Chaffee!

In this episode, we discuss the differences between a carnivore diet and a pro metabolic diet along with:

  • 3 amino acids that might get too high on a carnivore diet,
  • importance of collagen in your diet
  • is sugar or excess cortisol causing obesity
  • aspirin's role in lowering lipolysis
  • lowering PUFA's to obtain optimal health
and much, much more!

Brian (1s):

Coming up on the GETLEAN E Clean podcast,

Georgi (4s):

But meat does have a factor, which I think needs to be accounted for that can be potentially dangerous. And that is meat is very high. Also, Meine cysteine, especially the muscle meats. And tryptophan. Tryptophan is the only amino acid that is carcinogenic and is basically, I think if you, you know, if you, if you're eating a meat diet and you're eating, I dunno, 200, 300 grams of protein daily, you're probably getting maybe about a gram of tryptophan, which I think is, is, is more than optimal. And the reason I I say that, I'm sorry, it's less than optimal. In other words, it's bad for you because the multiple studies are shown, and even in humors now recently confirmed that trophon restriction can mimic all of the life extending benefits of caloric restriction, in other words.

Georgi (45s):

And, and the same thing was seen for meine restriction and for cystine restriction. In fact, if you restrict meine, you can cure type two diabetes in humans. There is a great study and revers obesity. These people, a lot of these people that have study looked at, were morbidly obese. So if you're eating predominantly meat, you're going to be getting probably more than what you need for optimal health of these three amino acids.

Brian (1m 7s):

Hello, and welcome to the Get Lean Eat Clean podcast. I'm m Brian Gryn and I here to give you actionable tips to get your body back to what it once was, five, 10, even 15 years ago. Each week, I'll give you an in depth interview with a health expert from around the world to cut through the fluff and get you long term sustainable results. This week I have a friendly Debate between Bioenergetic Health, Researcher Georgi Dinkov, and the Neurosurgeon Carnivore, Dr. Anthony Chaffee. We discuss differences between a Carnivore diet and a pro metabolic diet, along with three amino acids that might get too high on a carnivore diet. The importance of collagen in your diet is excess sugar or cortisol causing obesity.

Brian (1m 50s):

Aspirin's role in lowering lipolysis, lowering PUFA s to obtain optimal health and much, much more. Well, I really enjoyed this Debate between Georgi and Dr. Anthony. I know you will too. Thanks very much for listening and enjoy the show, All. right. Welcome to the GETLEAN E Clean podcast. My name is Brian Gryn. I have Georgi Dinkov on, and Dr. Anthony Chaffee. Welcome to the show.

Georgi (2m 15s):

Thanks for inviting us.

Anthony (2m 17s):


Brian (2m 18s):

Second time around for both of you actually. No Georgi, no. Yes. Second time for Georgi, I think too. Yeah. I'm excited to have you both on, I think most of the people listening have an idea of, you know, sort of your background, but maybe just a brief synopsis. I know obviously Dr. Chaffee full on Carnivore and Geor. He's from sort of the Bioenergetic viewpoint. Maybe just give a, you know, small intro of, of sort of your reasonings why you sort of got into that style of eating or, you know, that thought process. So, Dr. Chaffee, why don't you start?

Anthony (2m 53s):

Sure. Well, so I've, I've spent, you know, quite a long time studying nutrition and biology. I studied nutrition in my undergraduate degree, and obviously as pre-med you, you generally study a lot of biology. So I was, I was quite interested in that. I was interested in that because I was also an athlete and I wanted to fuel my body with the best things possible. Now, as a, as a clinician, it's, it's one of the more powerful tools that I've seen in getting people healthy is cleaning up their diet. And there's a number of different ways to do that. And I've come to the conclusion that I think just a meat based approach, as many or most of our ancestors did, is, is probably the best way of doing it.

Anthony (3m 35s):

I certainly don't think it's the only way of doing it. However, I, I do think that it's, it's one of the better ways, if not the best way, reason being is just that plants and, well, we've evolved in our biologically designed to eat meat. There are a lot of examples of that in current traditional populations going back hundreds of years, thousands of years before the ice ages really wasn't more to eat than meat. And we not only survived, but we thrived, which is very hard to do in an ice age if you're not very, very healthy. And then studying botany biology, cancer biology, in my undergraduate degree, it became clear that that plants are living organisms. They like to stay living organisms and they defend themselves by using chemical means amongst other things.

Anthony (4m 17s):

And, and those things can be harmful to us, some more than others, but most plants on earth are actually toxic and deadly. And the ones that are edible are less so obviously, but we have more defenses against them. But that doesn't mean that they're completely benign. And so I just try to raise awareness about that fact. And especially when people are more sensitive to that, have autoimmune issues and, and other sort of medical conditions, it can be quite helpful if they just cut out all plant material and just go to a high Fat meat based diet. And I found that to be very effective in my practice.

Brian (4m 50s):

Thanks for sharing that. And Georgi, maybe a little bit about the biogenic viewpoint.

Georgi (4m 56s):

I think it's actually overlaps quite a bit with what, what Dr. Chaffy just said. For some reason, people think that the biogenic or, or the petion diet is somehow anti meat. It is not. In fact, we think it's better to probably eat a meat-based diet as long as you factor in a couple of things. Number one, some installable fiber in order to stimulate intestinal motility. When you're eating a high protein, high meat diet, you certainly don't want your digestion to slow because the microbiome can produce some pretty toxic compounds from meat such as Racine, cadaver, just the names are basically kind of telling you that these are kind of toxic means that can be produced from meat if, if your digestion is not fast enough and we're, and the Bioenergetic, you basically says, we eat all the meat you want, as long as you ensure that your digestion is quick.

Georgi (5m 44s):

So you process the meat properly, number one, number one. Number two, make sure you're getting sufficient amount of Carbs because the protein, if you're not eating sufficient amount of carbohydrates, protein is very insulinogenic, at least the one that that is in meat is. So it's going to raise your insulin and basically once the blood glucose drops, you're gonna get a stress reaction number. So, and also if you don't eat sufficient amount of carbohydrates with the meat, part of the protein will get metabolized into glucose through the process of gluconeogenesis. So, and that we don't want that because the process of deamination of a lot of these amino acids that are in the meat is actually pretty toxic and you're gonna be producing a lot of ammonia.

Georgi (6m 24s):

In fact, we, there's several studies published on the fact that if you eat too much meat and not enough Carbs, you can get into a hyper amic state, which I think Dr. Chaff would agrees is certainly not optimal. So the biogenic view really, it can be kind of fit into the Carnivore paradigm as long as we're taking care of the fiber, as long as we're taking care of the carbohydrates. And, and also finally, meat has a, has a, i I would say a suboptimal ratio of calcium to phosphorus in favor of the phosphorus. And the phosphorus can have an anti metabolic effect. So if you're gonna be eating meat, the biogenic view says make sure your supplemental sufficient amount of calcium, but the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is at least one to one, not as in this basically feeding only meat or predominantly meat.

Georgi (7m 14s):

I think you're gonna be eating a calcium to phosphorus ratio that's basically one to four in favor of phosphorus, in favor of phosphorus. and we don't think that's optimal. My background is entirely, what should I call it, informal. My, my academic clinic is in computer science, but when I, when I graduated, I basically was looking for a job in the early two thousands that was right after the dotcom crash. Nobody wanted to hire people like me, so I had to become a programmer for a biomedical research foundation that's, that was actually the name. And I was working with, you know, 40 to 50 of some of the brightest doctors and biochemists and geneticists that are, were here in the United States, and a lot of 'em were coming from international institutions too. So I spent three years with these people and it was, I was only one of two people that were non, sort of like non-medically inclined there.

Georgi (8m 1s):

And I wanted to learn the lingo, And, you know, get involved in the conversations. And they gave me a few books to read and I started going to the lectures. And then after that has been reading PubMed studies, And now, lately, over the last two or three years, doing my own studies actually in vivo and in Viro with a lab out in Asia. So that's really my background. It's entirely as a hobby. And I actually, my day job is in, is in the IT sector. Thanks, Georgi. Oh, former athlete just like Dr. Dr. Shaki. And actually I was more or less a hundred percent Carnivore circa 2009, 2010. But I made the mistake of going very low carb and that actually kind of created problems for me. So since then I've moved, you know, away from the, from the, from the low carb diet, but I certainly eat meat.

Georgi (8m 47s):

So I would probably be about, considered about 80% carnivorous diets if, if, if we look at the, the macronutrients that are being covered by the pure Carnivore diet. So yeah, I I I would say our dietary habits probably overlap a lot more than, than, you know, people would think on the surface just based on, you know, what people know about Carnivore diet and the binary energetic one.

Brian (9m 8s):

Thanks Georgi, Dr. Chev, any thoughts about that? I mean, I'll let you speak. I don't, you know. Yeah. Oh,

Anthony (9m 15s):

Well you look, I, I, I, you know, I I certainly think that, you know, a lot, a lot of that has merit, you know, I mean specifically, you know, with the protein, you know, if you, if you are getting too high of protein, that can cause problems. I mean, you do make, you, you, you know, when you, you're clipping off these, you know, Amal groups, they do go into AM ammonia, then you turn that into your urea, you, you excrete that higher urea is actually okay, though it's actually a very good antioxidant. Obviously you don't want it in the ammonia phase, but then when it gets into the urea, it's actually, it's actually quite beneficial. If you are eating enough Fat though you don't, you, you, you can have too, you can have enough Carbs to offset the protein. You can also have enough Fat to offset the protein as well.

Anthony (9m 56s):

And there's certainly things about, you know, rabbit starvation or protein poisoning where people are really just predominantly getting the majority of their calories from protein. That can certainly cause problems. But you don't generally see that if you are getting enough Fat. So I think that you can a, can get enough Fat or enough carbohydrates and, and not have that issue with protein. And there are certainly traditional groups like the Inuit or the Masai, a very high Fat diet, not much Carbs, you know, the, in the, the national, sorry, the National Academy of Science and the Institute of Medicine and National Academies have said that the lower limit of carbohydrates is essentially zero. That these traditional populations don't eat any Carbs, don't eat them generationally, and apparently don't have any sort of health ramifications from that as long as they're getting enough protein and Fat.

Anthony (10m 45s):

So that, that's obviously the caveat is you need the rest of the, the macronutrients as far as the bowels are concerned. I've, I've found in, in my practice and in myself, that if you do eat enough Fat to the point that your body absorbs all the Fat, that's, that's it's wanting to, right? We have a limited capacity to absorb Fat with the bile that we have. And once we run out of that, it's difficult for our bodies to absorb Fat. You can, you can absorb some, but it's, it's, you know, small fraction of, of the amount of Fat that goes out. And that Fat actually, you know, lubricates things, keeps things soft and moves things through. So I find that people have, have quite normal stools. It's also important to note that yes, those, those ric cat taction processes can happen.

Anthony (11m 28s):

They generally happen when you're eating a mixed diet with a lot of fiber actually, and a lot of digestive disruptors and protease inhibitors Yeah. That stop your body from absorbing these sorts of things in the first place. Otherwise, if you're just eating meat, you generally absorb around 98% of the meat that you're eating. Dr. Salisbury in the 1800 actually got this up by grinding meat in such a way that filtered out the gristle and basically people were absorbing a hundred percent of the meat that they were eating so it didn't get down to their colon in the first place. So it didn't get, get that process. There can be a problem with putrefaction. Apart from that, we don't generally see that as much if people are eating enough Fat and they're not eating other things that can block digestion.

Anthony (12m 10s):

And, and as far as ratios, I I, I would agree in a lot of different ways. You need, you know, very specific ratios. If you are eating a, a different diet or a mixed diet, you, you generally need a different constellation of protein or you know, Proteins, but also vitamins and minerals as well. There are a lot of reasons for this. Our body metabolizes nutrients differently depending on what we eat. There are different things in plants that can actually disrupt the absorption of different minerals. Like oxalates can bind calcium, strip them out of your body that can actually strip them out of your bones. There's studies in the 1950s giving people a lot of spinach because spinach is high in calcium.

Anthony (12m 51s):

And they said, okay, well we'll give them, is this a good source of calcium? They'll raise the calcium levels. And they found their actually calcium levels dropped because they were bound up in ways that weren't bioavailable and the oxalates were actually stripping calcium out of their serum as well. So, you know, I would, I would agree with that, but with the caveat that we haven't really studied exactly what the ratios are are necessary for, if you are only eating meat, you know, may look at, look at vitamin C, people say, well, there's not enough vitamin C in meat. Well, if you're, if you're going by the RDAs, that's, that's true. But if you understand the fact that that carbohydrates block out the absorption and utilization of vitamin C because they go, but they both get drawn in by the glut four receptor, and carbohydrates can drown out the vitamin C.

Anthony (13m 33s):

So you need an abundance of vitamin C to get yeah, enough in, and that vitamin C in the context of scurvy, catalyzes the hydroxyl hydrolyzation of proline and lycine to make properly bound collagen. But if you're eating a lot of meat, you're getting that pre hydrolyzed Proteins and you don't, you don't need as much. So you need milligrams of vitamin C if you're eating carbohydrates and you need nanograms of vitamin C if you're not. So there's a, there's a million fold difference there. And it, it would be good to study the ratios that we need on a Carnivore diet with these other things as well. And I think you'll find that they probably work out just, well, I mean, I have patients that have been, were vegan anorexic, they were borderline osteoporitic at 40 years old.

Anthony (14m 17s):

They were Carnivore for one year and they're, now they're borderline normal bone den. That's, that's a massive change. And in medicine, we, we say, and we teach that you can only build bone density up to the age of 25, and then you just start losing it. But that is, is exactly the opposite of what we see in practice. And, you know, again, we have these populations like the Inuit, like people going through the ice ages, sages that some of them exclusively ate meat, others were close to it, and they did very, very well. And, you know, they had very strong bones and we have their, have their bones in the fossil record. And it was, it was actually after agricultural revolution that they became more short stature, smaller brains and, and weaker bones and more signs of fractures and poor wound healing, tuberculosis, things like that.

Anthony (15m 4s):

And so it does appear that before the agricultural revolution, when people were predominantly eating meat and then during the ice ages when really, you know, if you're really up north, you're exclusively eating meat because there's nothing else to eat. People are actually thriving. And so I think that there's, there's a difference there. And so if you're only eating meat, I would argue that you get, you know, everything that you need in the proportion that you need it.

Georgi (15m 28s):

Okay, couple of things from me. I agree you a hundred percent with the statement that if you eat meat, you're gonna be healthier than if you're eating vegetables, especially with the current craze of eating the vegetables mostly raw. That's, that's abysmal to me. I mean, as you mentioned, there are many metabolic inhibitors inside the vegetables are actually the largest source of phytoestrogens. And there are these phenolic molecules, natural naturally occurring estrogens that are, that are ubiquitous. So if you're gonna be eating a plant, chances are you're ingesting a more than optimal if you, if you think estrogen is even optimal to start with a more than optimal amount of phytoestrogens. And no matter what the medical industry's trying to tell you that phytoestrogens are good for your bones, good for your breasts, et cetera. We're finding the opposite is true with things like, like soy consumption.

Georgi (16m 10s):

It shrinks male testicles causes male and inphi female infertility. There was a big phrase of feeding women's soy, menopausal women's soy because it replaces their supposedly naturally declining estrogen that actually resulted in skyrocketing rates of breast cancer, estrogen receptor positive breast cancer. So really if you, if you have to choose between eating plants and eating meat, to me that's a no no, a no-brainer. You go with the meat, you're gonna be healthier 10 days out of 10. A couple things about the culture of consuming mostly meat. I've actually looked at this and I did some studies on the, on various meats myself. I think there's a bit of a, a myth that meat is low in Carbs fresh meat, which is up to a week after the animal has been slaughtered, is actually very high glycogen content.

Georgi (16m 52s):

Glycogen is mostly stored in the liver and the muscles. So if you're consuming fresh meat, you're consuming a sufficient, sufficient amount of Carbs. So I think that can actually probably account for the fact that, you know, you can eat only meat diet and as long as it's fresh meat diet, you are actually probably gonna be driving, especially compared to eating plants. It's also relatively high levels of vitamin C in the meat as well. That may also kind of explain why if you're eating predominantly meat, that if it's fresh meat, you don't have as ma as as much need of to consume preformed vitamin C. However, if the meat is aged cured or in general, you know, meat basically is after a week old, it can reliably cause curvy, which kind of shows that there's something going on in the meat, probably due to the putrefaction and maybe degradation of vitamin C because molecule resembles carbohydrates so much.

Georgi (17m 41s):

And most of the, the, like the, the, the expeditions that were on these big, on these ships that lasted months or even years back in the 14, 15, 1600, they a, a lot of sailors were getting s curvy, even though their diet was actually mostly dry cured meat So, they had So they had to start carrying these citrus fruits with them to basically cure the s curvy before the vitamin C was isolated. So fresh meat is great aged meat, I would say not so much. Another thing that, that there's some publications on it that, that I confirmed with my studies is that after about nine days, the amount of endotoxin in the meat starts to rise. And I think the reason is there's bacteria that basically that starts to grow and feed on the meat and the gram-negative bacteria that processes the amino acids in the process of increasing its turnover because the bacterial colony starts to grow when you feed it, of course they release endotoxin and endotoxin is definitely not good.

Georgi (18m 38s):

Not something we want to, we want to get into a bloodstream, yes, we are in the meat. And a lot of doctors will probably say, well, you're not absorbing that much because you'll stay in the gastrointestinal tract. Studies have shown, but that's not true. If you're eating age steak, the endotoxemia and the blood rises. So you're getting, basically you can detect, you know, five to six times higher endotoxin then if you're not eating the aged meat, the same thing is not seen with fresh meat But. it really matters whether you're eating fresh meat or not. If you, if you're not eating fresh meat, if you're eating aged cured, et cetera, other meats that have stayed in an environment where bacteria has access to that meat, then you're probably drastically de decreasing the, the benefits of that meat. As far as the Maasai, from what I understand, the diet, it actually includes a lot of milk, blood and meat.

Georgi (19m 24s):

So the milk has quite a bit of lactose, so I think they're getting some of the sugar from there as well. And also the fresh meat, which from what I understand Messiah is sometimes eat even raw and they prefer it raw. This is very, very fresh meat. So I think they're getting probably sufficient amount of carbohydrates based on the, the, the concentration of sugar that we're seeing in fresh meat. They're getting protein to carb ratio of about one to two, which is perfect without them having to consume additional preformed sugar. Well obviously they're living in the wild, so So, they, but from what I'm saying, they don't even prefer to eat right fruit, they're perfectly fine on drinking their milk, drinking the blood, mixing milk with blood, I think is one of their famous drinks, and also eating the fresh meat. So as long as you're eating the fresh meat, I think as far as the Macron are concerned, almost everything is covered except potentially the calcium to phosphorus.

Georgi (20m 10s):

But Dr. Chaffe says, we don't know yet what is optimal. And that's true. I don't think there've been any studies saying like, well let's feed these people a calcium deficient diet it, and then pump the full of phosphorus and see what happens. I don't think the study could, like that has happened. Most of the evidence that I cite of the ratio being anti metabolic, if you increase phosphorus too much is from, in vitreous studies and animal studies. We haven't had a human study. I will, I will, I will agree with that. But meat does have a factor which I think needs to be accounted for that can be potentially dangerous. And that is meat is very high also meine cysteine, especially the muscle meats and tryptophan, tryptophan is the only amino acid that is carcinogenic. And it's basically, I think if you, you know, if you, if you're eating a meat diet and you're eating, i, i dunno, 200, 300 grams of protein daily, you're probably getting maybe about a gram of tryptophan, which I think is, is, is more than optimal.

Georgi (21m 2s):

And the reason i I say that, I'm sorry, it's less than optimal. In other words, it's bad for you because the multiple studies are shown, and even in humans now recently confirmed that tryptophan restriction can mimic all of the life extending benefits of caloric restriction, in other words. And, and the same thing was seen for meine restriction and for cystine restriction. In fact, if you restrict meine, you can cure type two diabetes in humans. There is a great study and reverse obesity. These people, a lot of these people that the study looked at were morbidly obese. So if you're eating predominantly meat, you're going to be getting probably more than what you need for optimal of these three amino acids. And they're, as far as the me and the cystine, they're known to be anti-thyroid.

Georgi (21m 43s):

They're suppressing the release of thyroid hormones from the, from the thyroid glam. So the way this was traditionally balanced, I think in the cultures is that the, these cultures consume also a lot of collagen, right? So, they were eating the meat, but they're also eating a lot of the connective tissue. They're eating a lot of skin. And if that is the case, then a lot the, the glycine, the proline, the hydroxyproline gelatin can actually offset a lot of those pro-inflammatory, anti metabolic effects that metri and cysteine and tryptophan have. But if you eating pure muscle meat, you're getting basically a lot of these suboptimal of these three amino acids in quantities that are basically probably having potentially negative effect on your health unless they're being balanced by these other amino acids, which are known to be anti-inflammatory glycine, proline and hydroxyproline thine is another very similar one.

Georgi (22m 32s):

They all, they all happen to be, by the way, all these anti-inflammatory amino acids all happen to be gaba agonists, L nine glycine and towering, while meta nine cystine and tritan are GABA antagonists. So they're gonna put your brain into a state of a little bit of excitotoxicity, if I could say that. If you're eating too much of those amino acids and they're not being balanced by the anti-inflammatory amino acids. So think we're largely in agreement. It's just the question of, okay, how much meat you're eating? Is it fresh? Right? And also basically, are you doing something to putting the calcium to phospho side because there are no human studies yet that, that, that show what is the optimal ratio. I think the one, the other thing that I would potentially worry about is the, the excess of these three amino acids.

Georgi (23m 14s):

Cause they're mostly present in muscle meats. But if you're consuming organ meats, if you're consuming collagen, right, if you're eating the whole animal, which is what traditional traditionally is done in these, we call it primitive cultures, but I think they're very smart. We're the primitive ones. We crap. I I think it's perfectly fine as a diet. Yeah, that's, that's pretty much it.

Brian (23m 34s):

Thanks Georgi. Dr. Chaffey, did, did you have anything or you know, oh

Anthony (23m 40s):

Yeah, no, just a couple comments. you know, I, I, you know, I agree with a lot of that And, you know, I, I do think that that one of the things we need to again consider is that, that some of these studies are looking at the different ratios and different benefits of trian and all these sorts of things. They, they do happen in, well, you, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but in, in studies that are, again, in a mixed diet and So, we don't really know exactly, you know, what does this mean for the, just the, the strict meat eater because, you know, there, there aren't really enough of us to, to do that study with, and it's not a big, a big enough population cohort that people find it worthwhile to, to study that specifically. There's sort of looking in the context of what people do on a normal daily basis.

Anthony (24m 22s):

And so as far as the dried and fresh meat is concerned, there are certainly populations that eat fresh meat. I agree with you. you know, the, the Maasai obviously do have carbohydrates from the lactose. And so that's not a good example of, of one that doesn't use carbohydrates. But, but there are others like the Inuit, they, they do chew on skin and, and you know, try to turn that into leather. That's, that's sort of something that they're known for. And the elderly Inuit, you know, if they can't chew their leather, if their teeth are worn out, then they say, okay, that's it. I, I'm not contributing. So I walk out into the snow and expose myself to nature. So yes, that's definitely something that they do as well. But the Native Americans are, you know, well known for making pein.

Anthony (25m 6s):

They do a buffalo drop, they'd scare a herd of buffalo over a cliff, they'd fall and die and they would dry and preserve them and that that's what they would eat for the majority of the year was dried meat mixed with rendered talo. And we had evidence of this and, and mammoth drops going back over a million years. And so our, our ancestors have been, you know, using probably preserved meat or dried anyway, not with a bunch of chemicals and salts and things like that necessarily, which could possibly throw wrench in the gears. Adding, adding different sort of preservatives and chemicals is probably not a great idea. But it is, is likely that we have been doing this for quite some time.

Anthony (25m 48s):

We've used these sorts of pemi and iron rations and to feed armies, Napoleon, the Napoleonic Wars we're basically fed on boiled down cows put in jars. I think it's, that's the origin of borel if anyone knows that wretched product. And that's, that's what the, was sort of shipped all over the world to, to feed the Napoleon's armies. So the, you know, and, and then with, with endotoxin thing, you know, there is, there is a major issue with gut permeability and leaky gut when you're eating, you know, different sorts of things. So I would wonder if, you know, that those endotoxins wouldn't be kept out in someone who had a robust digestive tract and didn't have that leaky gut.

Anthony (26m 31s):

you know, I I I assume that that study was done in someone sort of eating a, a more yeah, sort of, sort of a general diet. So I would wonder about that. I I, you know, you know, endotoxins not something you want, right? But, you know, and, and, and certainly if someone's worried about that eating more fresh meat is something that they can certainly do, I would wonder, and I would be interested in seeing studies, if someone didn't have leaky gut, would they still get that same endotoxin load? I would, I would wonder that as well. And it was my understanding that the sailors getting scurvy were actually mostly eating like gruel and, and and things like that. And it was, it was the officers that had access to meat because they were obviously more important.

Anthony (27m 15s):

you know, you have the, the, the Vikings going back, you know, thousand plus years, you know, you know, Laith Erickson making it to North America, probably they, they predominantly used, you know, salted fish and meat and things like that. They had rot fish, which was just a sense of rotten fish. It just basically tasted like spoiled ls. Yeah. And that was predominantly what they ate as well. Didn't seem to have those problems as well. And, you know, and And, you know, there, there is some vitamin C again in, in these sorts of meat. And the thing is too, is that if you look at some of the, the nutritional data being put out by farmers that are, that are doing regenerative regeneratively raised grass fed and finished cows, like just their muscle meat actually has a sufficient amount of vitamin C to meet the current RDAs in the mixed diet.

Anthony (28m 6s):

So it, it does matter what you're eating. I don't always get the, the regeneratively raised meat. I just go to Costco because that's what's around me. It's what's convenient. And I, I haven't had a problem with that. I haven't had a patient that ever displayed any sort of symptoms of, of vitamin C deficiency. And there can obviously, obviously be more subtle cases. You can even suggested that you can develop atherosclerosis on, in a, on a suboptimal level of vitamin C well before you get scurvy. So, you know, it's not necessarily something that you'd spot right away. But I certainly haven't seen scurvy and I, you know, I've been doing this for, for six years now, really just meat and water, mostly muscle meat.

Anthony (28m 53s):

I do age it too slightly, so I put it, you know, I sort of do a wet age and, and a bit of dry, well dry brining. I don't like, I don't like let it go to rot. There are people that do high meat, which like really let it rot and they, and they swear by it. I, I don't think I'm there yet. I don't think that's something I need to try. I think I'm feeling pretty good. I don't, I don't need another leg up. But there's some people that that, that absolutely swear by it. And they, they say they feel amazing and they, they say they don't want to do it, it's gross, the house stinks, but they, you know, it's just sort of fixed all their problems and they feel so much better with it. So I think it's, I think it's, I think it's very interesting to think about these things in general. I think it's difficult to glean too much information off of these studies that don't really, you know, compare to what, what we're thinking about here, which is just a population that's only eating meat.

Anthony (29m 42s):

And if you look at, at different traditional populations that are predominantly eating meat, and again, I like to go back to the, the eye stages, And, you know, there are different populations that ate sort of different things and, and certainly would include some, you know, plants or Carbs or something like that. But like during the eye stages really, really didn't have that available. So, you know, maybe it was something to do with the raw meat And, you know, eating all the organs, eating nose to tail. But you know, there, there is evidence of these buff of mammoth drops and people having to, they have to sort of preserve, I mean, I guess you're sort of living in a freezer back in the ice age. You can just sort of leave it there I guess, but I don't know what that does to it or if they dried it.

Anthony (30m 24s):

But the Native Americans, you know, living in, in, in the plains of, of, you know, of America, they, they really did just subside mostly on Pekin and they didn't really eat much else. Maybe some, some berries sometimes they, there was reports they would put some in as like a small percentage like for fest pacification or a celebration, like a wedding or something like that. But there are many, many accounts, if you go back to the early American explorers and settlers talking about how they were actually just amazed that these guys just really didn't eat anything except meat, especially up in what is now southern Canada when, you know, it was like the little ice age when it was really cold and it was just like, there was nothing but snow for eight, nine months out of the year or really nine, 10 months out of the year.

Anthony (31m 11s):

And they, they, I remember reading counts of this actually, you know, back in school where they were talking about how, you know, well I understand that during the winter they can't grow anything so, you know, yes, you know, just eat meat the whole time. But you know, there's three months in the year that they can, they can, you know, live off the bounty of the land, And, you know, grow crops and, but they don't, they really just eat meat the whole year round. The Native Americans in Plains, the Plains Indians, they were found in, forget the name of the study, But, it was, it was, you know, not too long ago, they actually looked at, you know, fossil records and records and historical records and they found that the Plains Indians in the 18 hundreds were the tallest human beings on earth as a population.

Anthony (31m 54s):

Yeah, yeah. And they, they were really just, just eating meat and they were even eating, you know, the dried meat as well. So I think that there's, there's probably a significant difference in the nutritional demand when, when you're just eating meat and certainly there is glycogen in muscle meat and liver. And, and that's probably good for us. I don't, I don't doubt that at all. There's probably an argument some people make that, you know, if you eat a large bolus of meat in one go that you'll actually kick yourself out of ketosis and then sort of come back in, dip back in. And that's probably physiological and that's probably good for you. I don't know, I just go by first principles, you know, what, what are we sort of designed to eat?

Anthony (32m 35s):

We've been eating meat for a long time. People have thrived on meat, so I just eat meat and if my body's going in and out of ketosis, I'm happy that it knows what it's doing. And there are some populations like the Inuit who, who really can't eat the, the organs because the

Georgi (32m 51s):

Yeah, too much vitamin toxicity though. Yeah, they'll get poisoned. Exactly.

Anthony (32m 54s):

Yeah. So the marine mammals that they're eating or have such a high concentration of, of these vitamins, the Fat soluble vitamins they get, they'll get hyper provitamin os a usually and So, they, they traditionally don't eat the organs. They're really just eating the meat now they do chew on the skin and they'll eat a lot of connective tissue and there's a bit of, of a bit more vitamin C and collagen and things like that. So I think these things can be accounted for. And I think that regardless if you're just eating meat or you're eating anything and you're feeling a bit off or something's off, get checked, check your bloods, see what's going on. If you need to supplement, you do. I've seen exactly two people that had like actually a folate, you know, slightly low folate.

Anthony (33m 35s):

They felt fine, they felt good But. it was just like, okay, eat a bit more liver. They ate more liver, folate came back up. So, you know, And, you know, certain people are gonna metabolize things a little differently. We're not eating wild animals. They're not mostly aren't getting regeneratively raised. So, you know, there is a, a bit of a, of a paucity of nutrition, nutritional components there. And some people they may find that it's not enough for them. So I think that most people will be just fine though, doing this. And there are populations that have been doing this since, you know, time immemorial.

Georgi (34m 8s):

Agreed, yeah, little doubt that agricultural societies are basically the shortest in stature. They have the shortest lifespan, they have the highest rates of obesity and generally poor health, also very poor dental health. And I remember the Native Americans, one of the things that shocked, really upset was that basically when I looked, when they, when they looked at even very old people, yeah, they lost some of their teeth, but there were no cavities in the teeth that were remaining. So the, the native cultures, you know, knew what to eat. And it, it looks like when you leave people alone in nature without, you know, them being forced into a particular framework of what they should be eating, they tend to gravitate towards meat, eggs, and milk.

Georgi (34m 49s):

And, and, and you can see that also in mo people that live in the mountains who happen also also be the tallest maiah, very tall, even though they're, they're living in the Savannah. But if you look at some of the mountainous cultures, they're also very tall. That's what also they predominantly lead meat, egg, and, and, and milk. Simply because at that altitude, you're probably not gonna be able to grow anything. But, but I think it is also the fact that, cause I know people who basically they're, they're from Nepal and they've, they've lived in, you know, very high altitude all their lives. They have a distaste for vegetable, I don't know how to explain it. They don't like it no matter how you cook it. Even potatoes, they find basically a natural to eat. And, and, and their diet are just, as the doctor said, are basically mostly based on meat and milk and, and whatever dairy products are coming out of the milk

Brian (35m 36s):


Anthony (35m 37s):

I don't like vegetables either.

Brian (35m 39s):

Oh, we know that. Yeah. One of the things, I mean obviously there's, there's things that obviously we can agree upon, protein, meat based diet, you know, the role of saturated fats limiting pfas. But you know, one of the big difference is, is the fact that Dr. Chaffee, I've heard you talk on, you know, numerous Podcasts that, you know, Carbs and sugar are this harmful substance that, you know, make you hungry, overeat, and can be addictive and almost calling it like a drug. And I don't know if you wanna expand on that and then George, I'd love you to hear your opinion about that.

Anthony (36m 16s):

Well, yeah, well, yeah, I, I certainly think that there is, there's quite a lot of evidence to show that fructose probably should be classified as a drug that's been shown to give a dopamine response to the addiction centers of your brain, just like cocaine, heroin, and meth. And there are MRI studies showing that fructose, you know, basically fructose addiction, people are metabolically sick, can actually kill the same areas of their brain as methamphetamine addicts and to the same extent as methamphetamine addicts, And. now God knows how long it took them both to get there. I'm not saying that it's going to necessarily do it as fast, but in this study they, they both had the same endpoint, which was, you know, severely damaged area of their brain that relied on, on dopamine.

Anthony (36m 56s):

And as you ex excite, you know, excitatory molecules to your brain like dopamine turn on your, your brain cells makes them stay on. This is toxic to the brain. They have to shut down, they have to turn off, you have to sleep. And that gets rid of these sort of toxic neurotransmitter breakdown products, which for some reason, the breakdown products of our neurotransmitters are actually toxic to our brain, which I think is a terrible design, but that's what it is. And so if you're constantly stimulating your brain and you're neurons with dopamine and you're not allowing them to turn off and clean up and and repair, they will eventually die. And so that, that has been shown in MRI studies as well.

Anthony (37m 38s):

They can also have hormonal effects. you know, they obviously, you, you eat carbohydrates, this can damage your body. The high blood sugar can be dangerous. This is the, because the glucose molecules physically fuses to other molecules is where hba one C comes from. That's the glycated hemoglobin molecules. It's showing that it's a representation of how much damage you've had in your body, roughly three months. Things that can, that it can extend or shorten the lifespan of a red blood cell and change that average. But that's usually what we look at, we think is about three months. And this is what kills diabetics, you know, just it's chronically high blood sugar and it can, you know, rot you and damage you from the inside. Having high HBA one c di type two diabetes or metabolic syndrome greatly increase your risk for heart disease metabolic syndrome by sixfold type two diabetes by tenfold, which is, you know, similar to smoking.

Anthony (38m 26s):

So it's, it's very bad for you. And our body responds by raising insulin. I think this is a sort of a protective mechanism. you know, we look at different populations, a lot of 'em aren't eating carbohydrates, you know, from plants or anything like that. And, and quite often they can be in ketosis and you know, and so the, you know, their insulin levels are quite low and they're chronically, you know, sort of stable and their body's allowed to, to sort of run properly when you, when you raise your insulin as, and so I think that's our, our primary metabolic state. I don't think that's a starvation state or hunger driven state or anything like that. you know, if I eat, you know, two pounds of rib eye, like I'm, I'm not starving and I'm, I'm certainly not fasting, you know, I, I've, I'm eaten, you know, so I think we've misnamed that as a fasting state.

Anthony (39m 13s):

I think that's our normal metabolic state. That seems to be the normal metabolic state of most animals in the wild carnivores because they eat animals with meat and Fat. They go for the Fat first. They, they get a lot of their calories from Fat and the rest from protein and then herbivores because that's what they break down fiber into. you know, they don't, they don't break down fiber. No vertebrate animal can break down fiber. It's their gut bacteria that eat the fiber. And as a byproduct, they produce short chain fatty acids and which are saturated fats. And then they die off and are absorbed as protein So. they get, like a gorilla gets about 70 30 Fat to protein cows get closer to 80 20 and So, they eat fiber and they eat Carbs.

Anthony (39m 55s):

But what they absorb is Fat and protein. And, and that's, that's similar to us as well in the nature. And so I think that that's on purpose. I think that's our normal biological biochemical design. When you have very high insulin, this causes a lot of biochemical dysregulation in your body, can precipitate things like P C O S, erectile dysfunction, hypertension, and, and a lot of other things, or a lot of people like Professor Ben Bickman and others who are, are arguing that a lot of the disease states are driven by hyperinsulinemia state. And one of the things that that lept or that lectin, ugh, that insulin can do is it can block a hormone called leptin, which is a satiety hormone, but it's more than that.

Anthony (40m 39s):

It's a, it's a cornerstone hormone that, that drives and helps regulate a lot of hormones in our circadian rhythm. And insulin can block that. And so that goes and tells you, it comes from our stretch receptors. If you eat a lot, this is why we were told to eat a lot of fiber in the 1980s. It says you'll stretch out your stomach release leptin, that'll tell your brain that you're full and you'll stop eating. But you know, you have, you have more receptors that are specifically designed to look at nutrients, macro micronutrients that tracks up the vagus nerve to the brain. And so you find the people that eat a whole bunch of vegetables and things like that, they feel full, they can't eat anymore. They're bloated, but they're like, I'm starving because the brain is just like, you have gotten no nutrients here, right?

Anthony (41m 21s):

So that leptin is not enough. Most of the leptin comes from our adipose tissue, from our Fat cells, and that goes to our brain and gives us a sort of a running gas gauge on how much energy we have. Insulin blocks that. So our brain gets a signal that we don't have as much Fat in storage, or maybe we don't have any Fat in storage. If you have a high enough insulin response And, you know that, that can tell your brain that you know you're not doing well. Insulin high insulin's gonna stop. Gluconeogenesis is gonna stop lipolysis, stop proteolysis, and it's gonna lock down your Fat cells. And so now you're not able to raise your blood sugar, you're not able to produce ketones and, and you feel really hungry and you feel starving, your brain panics because it says you have no energy reserves and your blood sugar's dropping, so you have to eat now.

Anthony (42m 4s):

So people panic, eat, they overeat. It's very easy to overeat when you're eating a lot of carbohydrates because of that, especially sugar like fructose. Because fructose independently blocks leptin and upregulates ghrelin, which is the counter to leptin in your stretch receptors in your stomach. So when your stomach's empty, it releases ghrelin and says like, Hey, you don't have anything in the pipeline. So that can compound that, that hunger effect. There are other, other things in plants, obviously different lectins that can actually get into your body through leaky gut. Lectins can also cause leaky gut. So it's a two for one. And some of these lectins have been shown as studies to bind to insulin receptors and, and leptin five times more tightly then insulin.

Anthony (42m 46s):

So, you know, even if someone's on a ketogenic diet, but they're still eating, you know, plants containing these lectins, they, they can actually still have this insulin effect even though their insulin's actually quite low. So I think that that in a lot of cases that when you're reducing your insulin and normalizing your blood sugar and your insulin and you're gonna, you're gonna normalize a lot of other hormones as well. P C O S, the reason that that can be caused by eating a lot of carbohydrates and the genetically susceptible is because women make testosterone first and then this is converted into estrogen in the ovaries. And high insulin actually blocks the conversion of estrogen or testosterone into estrogen So.

Anthony (43m 29s):

they get too high testosterone, they get too low estrogen, it can also screw up your growth hormone production. Carbohydrates, again, simulate insulin, insulin blocks the secretion and, and action of growth hormone, which is a very important hormone in our, in our general health and aging and building and repair of our body and brain. We kick this stuff out, cyclically every 60 minutes for men, every 90 minutes for women and maximally about two hours after we go to sleep. And then while we're sleeping, if you're eating carbohydrates, sorry. Oh, sorry, no, if you're eating car carbohydrates and insulin, that's gonna block that, that issue.

Anthony (44m 10s):

So you're gonna have an inappropriate response and you'll, you might have appropriate or what you think is appropriate growth hormone, but your IGF one won't, won't be as high. You won't, you'll, you'll, you won't get the effects of growth hormone that, that you want. And so I think there's, the, the Carbs are problematic in a lot of ways for that. Certainly in the sense that if you're eating it too much and you're, and you're keeping yourself in this hyperinsulinemia state, there are ways around this, you know, there are people that do intermittent fasting and they, you know, because insulin has a long half life, it's generally taught in textbooks, it's about 24 hours of, of not eating anything but really just not eating carbohydrates that your insulin comes down to a more normal level and you can start actually making energy and, and producing energy from your Fat cells.

Anthony (44m 56s):

So a lot of people do that by intermittent fasting and they still eat the same processed food, ultra processed garbage diet, but they get better results. And I think that's, that's part and parcel to do with just, just keeping your blood sugar at a more lo normal level and keeping your insulin down as well. So as far as fructose is concerned as well, again, it can compound this, this issue and make you overeat, but it's addictive like these different sorts of drugs. Sure. And it also can damage your body in similar ways of alcohol. Dr. Robert Lustig of U C S F has done, I mean just yeoman's work, he's done dozens of studies, you know, showing this, that fructose can actually, well actually is metabolized and broken down in the same byproducts as ethanol.

Anthony (45m 41s):

And that can cause the same dam, the same damage to our body as these breakdown products of ethanol. Obviously before they're, they're metabolized, they don't do the exact same things as alcohol, but after they're broken down, they get broken down into the same byproducts. And so you can get fatty liver disease, they're, they're just turned straight into fatty droplets. So this is a major contributor to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. You can get, you can get cirrhosis or, and per peripheral insulin Resistance, which is type two diabetes and heart disease and is even implicated in things such as cancer and Alzheimer's. So, you know, I think that there, there are a lot of reasons to, to, to sort of avoid these things.

Brian (46m 20s):

Okay, thank you. I just wanted to give Georgi a chance. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. I'm sorry. That's ok. There's a lot there Georgi and I, and I'm, I'm sure I'll, I'll let you go with that. So

Georgi (46m 28s):

Yeah, I mean, I, I get the general idea basically that that Carbs, you know, called hyperinsulinemia and basically hyperinsulinemia is tied to all of these, you know, disease states down the line, a couple of things about it. I think sugar gets a lot of blame and yes, it is high in diabetes and yes it does, it is required for the, for the glyco hemoglobin. However, several interesting studies with humans demonstrated that the rate of increase of glyco hemoglobin is not sugar is not the only required thing. There needs to be lip peroxidation. And in people who are given antioxidants such as vitamin E or vitamin C, they didn't form not nearly as much glyco hemoglobin despite take eating as much as, if not even more simple carbohydrates than the people that didn't.

Georgi (47m 12s):

So there's something, there's an interplay there between pollo saturated fats and, and glucose and the po the poa, which is a, is a required factor for this, for the really pathological rise in, in gly hemoglobin, I think sugar gets like a, it's, it's not an innocent bystander But, it But it is a partial bystander. It's not the only evil factory here. Something else in regards to diabetes, yes, blood sugar is high in type two diabetes, however, invariably probably less than one in a thousand type two diabetics 9, 999 of the 1000 are obese, often morbid, the obese. And the reason they have high blood glucose in, in their bodies, actually they get the high blood glucose, even if they don't eat the sugar for a long time.

Georgi (47m 56s):

There was a, there was an advocacy for people with type two diabetes to not eat sugar because it will contribute to the elevated blood sugar, the blood glucose. However, recent studies discovered that only about 10% of that, of that blood glucose spike in type two diabetics is due to the dietary sugar. They added 90, the other 90% are due to glucco upregulated gluconeogenesis in these morbidly obese people. And if you there, there is some investigation. It turns out that in morbidly obese people, cortisol, baseline cortisol is higher than optimal. So if you give morbidly obese people anti cortisol drugs, they not only do do, do they recover their glucose, the insulin sensitivity and normalize the blood glucose, they also lose all their excess weight.

Georgi (48m 38s):

So it's the Fat really the extra Fat that these people are carrying that is doing something that's causing the, the, the, the, the, the hyperglycemia and the dietary glucose plays a very, seems to be playing a very small role into the, in, in, in. So it's a hormonal disease really. It's not necessarily a dietary thing. Now of course the diet can cause it right and eventually becomes a vicious circle. But basically there's 30 with diabetics type two diabetics, they gave them seven grams of aspirin daily, a massive dose. But the, one of the effects of aspirin is that almost completely blocks lipolysis at these levels. So with these morbidly obese type two diabetics, seven grams of aspirin daily completely normalized their blood glucose, which again, I think demonstrated something related to the Fat that's causing this hypoglycemia type diabetics.

Georgi (49m 25s):

And there's a gentleman who published something called in the 1960s called the Randall Cycle, I think his name, his name is John Randall. And basically says that glucose and fats compete for, for, for metabolic machinery at all times. So basically whatever which, whichever one of the macronutrients you happen to have in excess at the current time, that's what's going to get metabolized and the other macronutrient will not. So in, there's fla there's, I think at this point there's a lot of evidence that in obese people there is an oversupply of fatty acids. They're high, the free fatty acids in the blood are very high in, in, you know, in in diabetics both type one and type two. And you can actually do something to lower the amount of these fatty acids. Blood glucose drops as well. There is a drug which is a simple derivative of vitamin B3 niacin and the drug is called a ccp, O A C P I M O X, no, A C I P I M O X.

Georgi (50m 16s):

And if you look at that, it is basically just niacin with a think extra hydroxyl group. And. what this drug does, just, just as niacin does, it very reliably lowers lipolysis. And when you give it to type two diabetics, they have a drastic decrease in triglycerides, drastic decrease in in cholesterol levels in general, the pre fatty acids and also drop in blood glucose levels. So I think the biogenic view here is that glucose gets, gets a bad rap, even though it is, it does have some role in the, specifically that the, the, the advanced glycation end products and, and the glyco hemoglobin. But it's really like the, the Fat and the lower metabolic grade that, that are actually causing this, this glucose to go into pathways that is not supposed to be going or to stay through the bloodstream simply because they cannot get metabolized.

Georgi (51m 0s):

Why cannot get 'em metabolized? Well, because these people are basically, especially the obese people, they have, their lipolysis is elevated So. they always have a higher than optimal amount of free fatty acids in the blood. And as long as that is the case, the body cannot metabolize most of the glucose that they're either eating or producing through the process of gluconeogenesis. If you somehow restrain lipolysis and insulin, by the way, does that, I'll say what I'm bringing this up in a minute, then you can normalize the, you can actually completely reverse insulin Resistance despite this person maintaining their morbidly obese state. The, the study with aspirin actually did that So, they gave him seven grams of aspirin daily for two weeks. And at the end of the study, these people biochemically, at least on the biomarkers, were no longer diabetic.

Georgi (51m 41s):

However, there was still morbid obs in the moment. The aspirin regimen stopped within a few days. They basically recovered, I mean, recovered or relapsed to their previous pathological state. Now, insulin, yes, definitely hyperinsulinemia can cause a lot of problems, but some of the most successful drugs and five has been trying to, to chase these drugs for decades, they were the most successful drugs for weight loss, which were currently approved not for that they were approved for type two diabetes But. it was found that their result in, in weight loss and the drug ozempic, which now, which now every Hollywood actor is taking to manage their weight, it's main fact is actually increasing insulin released by about 50%. So it'll definitely put you in a state of hyperinsulinemia, however it results in, in reliable weight loss to the point where now doctors are prescribing an off-label to people who are willing to, you know, who are willing to, to take this drug even if they're not type diabetic, because it's such a reliable, you know, weight loss inducer.

Georgi (52m 36s):

So yes, is leaking cause troubles, but I think the role of insulin is a lipolysis inhibitor is actually important. And a lot of people say, well, hold on a second. You're blocking lipolysis and all this Fat stored is not, you know, it's not getting fluked out of the cells. The how are you gonna lose weight? Or the Fat cells themselves can actually process a lot of this Fat. And really what's, what's controlling how much of the Fat you're processing, even, even if it stays in the adipocytes, is actually your basal metabolic rate. There's an old drug which is now banned in the United States, but remarkably effective to this day. It's called Dia nitro phenol. That is basically a metabolic and coupler. It drastically increases your metabolic rate to the point where it can kill you through hyperthermia.

Georgi (53m 17s):

And that's why FDA has banneded. However, it used to be the standard drug, and I think FDA used to have an approval for it to basically treat morbidly obese people in the early 20th century. Then of course, people started taking it off-label and it took meta into hands and a lot of deaths occurred through the hyperthermia. Now it's them, but what this drug does is essentially mimics taking thyroid hormone or anything else that uncouples your metabolism. So you're producing a lot more heat and not so much a tp, but you're based on metabolic rate about doubles on the drug. And it's a very reliable way to lose weight without exercising and without increasing lipolysis and really without even doing anything, without changing that in any way.

Georgi (53m 57s):

So, so I think there, there are ways to lose weight safely. I I do like the Carnivore diet again, with, with a few caveats. I mean, at least a few additions that I would do. But I think glucose gets a lot of bad rap, even though glucose in many cases is more of a bio stern than a, than a direct than a direct cause. Simple example, cholesterol, dietary cholesterol, not many to know. But in 2017, FDA reversed its dietary guidelines for cholesterol. It said, you no longer need to worry about cholesterol. We've been telling you for 50 years the cholesterol is gonna give a heart disease. Guess what? We're wrong. But what FDA didn't do, even though that study that came out on which the, this, this reversal was based, it also vindicated saturated Fat, but FDA didn't touch that.

Georgi (54m 39s):

I guess big pharma has to say a lot of And, you know, there's a lot of lobbying propo for an anti Anyway, so the study said you can eat all the cholesterol you want. It does not make difference in regards to cardiovascular disease risk. It's actually the cholesterol you synthesize, right? That is actually much more implicated and not just the cholesterol, but the oxidized cholesterol. And the thing that leads oxidized cholesterol is oxidative stress production of reactive oxid species, which seems to be happening when the metabolic cycle is blocked. The oxidative ation is blocked by something and one of the most reliable metabolic inhibitors is the poly Fat. They're also raising levels of melon Dede height, which is that indicator of, of lipid peroxidation.

Georgi (55m 20s):

And it's the multiple is demonstrated an almost perfect correlation between gly hemoglobin and malondialdehyde. So there's something going on with the PUFA that's totally responsible for most of the glycation of advanced glycation and products, which in which glucose participates. But simply because the glucose is not metabolized, why is glucose not metabolized? Because too much Fat is overcrowding the, the MAC machine, the oxidative machinery in the cell, and it's preventing glucose from being oxidized. And the way this really, the, the really the biggest role, the biggest roadblock in this, in this co competition between fats and glucose, happens to the level of Peru dehydrogenate. That enzyme is kinda like the rate limiting step of the oxidation of Google glucose. It Links glycolysis to the, to the oxidative relation and Fat fatty acid.

Georgi (56m 4s):

If pre oxidized too many of them, or higher than I should, I should say higher than optimal. It results in a drop of this ratio of Nico Nico nicotinamide adenine, the nucleotide plus, which is the oxidized version. And then there's also the reduced version, which is nh. So n a d plus is the oxidized, NH is the reduced one. And this, this ratio kinda indicates is an indication of your status, how much oxygen you're consuming, whether you are, whether you have a build of electrons or deficiency of electron. And invariably we're seeing that in every chronic state, if you actually care to look, you have, you have so, so-called of an excess of electrons, your insisted towards reduction and oxidizing too much Fat will put you into that more reduced state.

Georgi (56m 47s):

And as long as the n nad to the NH ratio is lower than whatever Piru androgynous needs to, to basically do to, to, to handle the peric coming from glucose, you're going to accumulate pyruvate a byproduct of glucose and the cell doesn't like accumulation of pru. And also the cell needs to restore its n NAD balance because that's what's needed for the cell to, to be alive. So it's using Pruitt as an emergency oxidant to oxidize n a DH back into N A D. But in the process, PERT gets converted to lactate. And we're seeing this into, in diabetes, in cancer and cardiovascular and Alzheimer's disease, they were higher than, than optimal levels of lactic acid in the blood lactate, actually not lactic acid.

Georgi (57m 27s):

And again, if you give some of these people, not many studies have been done, most of them are being animals. But some human studies, cancer drug ACP mock that was approved, if you give people drugs that either block hypothesis or somehow inhibit the oxidation of Fat, their hyperinsulinemia and, and, and hyperglycemia disappear. There's a famous drug invented by in the former of U S S R. It's now banned as a doping agent, it's called meldonium, also known as ate And. what this drug does is basically interferes with the oxidation of long-chain fatty acids by preventing the transport into the mitochondria. So it's a, in a sense, simplistically fatty acid oxidation inhibitor. Indirectly, it doesn't directly mess with the pro to bay oxidation, but simply prevents the fatty acids from getting into the mitochondria.

Georgi (58m 12s):

That drug is to this day, is used in over 30 European countries and other countries worldwide to actually treat type two diabetes. But it. But its effects are actually opposite of that, of stimulating fatty ox acid oxidation. It's the opposite. It's inhibiting it. And as, as soon as you inhibit the excessive fatty oxidation, not, not all of it, but the excess excessive it, which is seen in diabetic people and people with chronic conditions, the problems with glucose, with blood glucose seem to disappear. And that seems to be largely the effect of things like aspirin and vitamin E and niacinamide. There there are basically substances that restrain excessive lipolysis. I wanna emphasize excessive not baseline. We always need lipolysis because the, our muscles at rest predominantly burn Fat.

Georgi (58m 53s):

However, that changes when we're under exertion. Then the, especially the heart prefers glucose simply because the pros of bed oxidation is slower, much slower than the, than the glucose oxidation. And that if you need an emergency of an emergency urge of, of energy, then the, the muscles would prefer to metabolic switch to glucose. Right? So that's really the gist of it. you know, the metabolic says glucose can be a problem, but only if they're already in state. That that basically results in its inhibited metabolism. And a lot of that inhibition of metabolism can be traced to things like high stress hormones. Cortisol can inhibit glucose, oxidation can simulate the fatty acids in taste, stimulates the position of Fat.

Georgi (59m 33s):

People with cut syndrome, which is the disease of overproduction, of cortisol. Every single one of them has central obesity and loss of muscle mass. So basically they look like the lemon with the stick model. It's a lemon with basically four sticks in those with the limbs, if you give them a drug that blocks cortisol, these people not only recover, but they, they basically, they enjoy sustained weight loss. I wanna emphasize sustained, because it's not that difficult to lose weight if you watch your calories and exercise and basically you're sensible about your life, it's difficult to keep the weight off after you've lost it. And I think a lot of, a lot of people don't realize how much their metabolic rate declines as a result of the weight loss.

Georgi (1h 0m 14s):

If the weight loss is done through me, through through means, which result in loss of Lean muscle mass as well. There's a show in the stage called think, I dunno if it if it's still running, it's, it was called The Biggest Loser, what an app name. And basically they were forcing people through this, I think six months of grueling regimen, which included fasting caloric restriction, right? Basically, I think they also completely cut out sugar, exercised some ridiculous amounts of hours a day. Some of them got heart attacks during the, during the, the, the show, which is, you know, not surprising given how morbid busy people are. Anyways, every single person who lost the weight and won the show within six months, not only were they back to the original weight, despite maintaining a caloric deficit, basically they, they stay on the diet that the show gave them, but they re they they gain even more So.

Georgi (1h 0m 60s):

They were devastated. They said, what's going on? I went through six months of hell, I lost all this weight And. now I'm, you know, basically I'm, I'm, I'm no longer in the show. So I, I'm eating the same restrictive diet that you guys were giving me. I just, I guess I no longer exercise And, now I'm gaining weight on fewer calories than before. Well, what's what's happening? And the study that looked at these participants said that the based on metabolic weight declined, but between 40 and 50% as a result of the weight loss. Why? Because while they were fasting and exercising and all the, all these things, yes, they were losing a lot of Fat because lipic was upregulated. However, they were also losing a lot of Lean mass. And Lean mass is the primary determinant of your resting metabolic rate. So if you, the biogenic disease says if you want to lose the weight, the safer way to do it is build Lean muscle mass, right?

Georgi (1h 1m 44s):

And basically, you know, avoid the Poland security fatty acids. Not only are they metabolic inhibitors, they're also, they're also an endocrine factor due to their infatuated. This multiple studies back in the 1670 showed that they act similar to estrogen. They can activate hypo pituitary adrenal axis So, they can put you to kinda state of chronic stress and their precursors to the, you know, some of the most well-known inflammatory mediators, the prostaglandins, the leukotrienes, and the thromboxane aspirin. And many of the other nonsteroid inflammatory drugs that are in wide use today are doing just that. They inhibiting the conversion of, of the polyline fats into these inflammatory mediators. So really the metabolic theory says, raise your metabolic rate, keep stress lower because cortisol is not your friend.

Georgi (1h 2m 29s):

Neither is excessive insulin, but cortisol by the way they go hand in hand. People with hyperemia also have hypercortisolemia because the body seems to be regulating them in, in this way to prevent reactive hypoglycemia. So, which can put you in a common or potentially even diet, that type type one diabetes can get that. If they're not, if they're not careful with the injecting too much insulin and not eating sufficient amount of glucose, they can actually die and go into hypoglycemia coma. But the, I think the mechanism the body has developed is that if you, if you have, if your insulin is too high, the body says, oh my god, there's a danger of hypoglycemia. So lemme raise cortisol reactively or adaptively. Because the primary role of cortisol is actually not so much anti-inflammatory But. it is to keep blood glucose from falling too low.

Georgi (1h 3m 12s):

And the rea, the way cortisol does that is by threading your muscle tissue and connective tissue, most of them, cuz most of them are made of, of amino acids. And then these amino acids get converted into glucose through the process of gluconeogenesis, which glu which cortisol by the way, upregulate. And I think that's why these recent studies with humans months die to diabetes that show that 90% of the blood glucose, daily blood glucose is coming from gluconeogenesis, not from the diet. When they gave them an anti cortisol drug, gluconeogenesis went back to normal. And these people, at least the metabolic biomarkers, seem to seem to normalize completed. Now they didn't immediately lose weight, but most of these studies lasted only a few months because these people in such a poor health, the goal was to normalize them biochemically and then worry about their weight later.

Anthony (1h 3m 57s):

Well, I, I would, I would just, I would agree with, you know, quite a lot of that. And so, you know, I I I, I, again, I think we, we have a lot of crossover, you know, on what we're talking, especially with the, with the POAH and things like that. Those things are absolutely toxic. They absolutely destroy the function, normal functioning of our, of our mi mitochondria. And then that's probably one of the, the main drivers of the chronic disease state that we are seeing now in, in, in the modern western world. And so I, I think that the, the only things that I would, I would sort of point out, first of all, I, it was my understanding that that people with type two diabetes are actually is a, is a number of, of these people with metabolic syndrome type two diabetes, you know, anywhere from 20 to 40% depending on the studies you look at that actually are are, are not overweight or obese.

Anthony (1h 4m 42s):

They're, they're actually normal weight. So that is, is a bit difficult there, you know, it's like they don't have, you know, the high sort of Fat obesity sort of content that you're talking about there. And also, I certainly agree that this is, this is a lot more complex than just, you know, Carbs go up, diabetes happens, you know, there, there's so much more going on in our biochemistry and it's, it's very intricate. And so when you, when you start, you know, giving someone seven, I hadn't heard of that study. That's amazing. Seven grams of aspirin is, is pretty impressive.

Georgi (1h 5m 13s):

I'll, I'll send it after that. It's a human study. Yeah,

Anthony (1h 5m 16s):

Yeah. It's very interesting. you know, you know, coming from a surgeon standpoint, my first reaction is, oh sweet Jesus, no, you know, he's just gonna, you know, don't

Georgi (1h 5m 23s):

Bleed to death, right?

Anthony (1h 5m 24s):

Yeah. Oh my goodness. Like, yeah. So, you know, you see people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, coming in, they have a bad headache, you know, they take a couple aspirin and come in, they have a, and they have a, you know, a cerebral bleed. Just like, oh, it's Jesus. No, why? you know? So the gas aspirin is, is not the front of the surgeon. Certainly, but that's very interesting. I do think that, you know, it, it has its role though, right? Because it, this is, this is happening in a complex system and so, you know, we, unless we take medications, we're not going to disrupt those metabolic processes. And so, you know, glucose has a role and so your blood sugar's gonna go up, you're gonna have these sorts of problems. So yes, you can certainly temper these, these reactions and, and your metabolism with medications.

Anthony (1h 6m 5s):

And it's certainly interesting to see the mechanisms and all the interplay. But you know, if you're not taking these medications and we're just looking at how our body just works naturally, you know, it, there is that interplay, there are those things going on in a lot of these, you know, obviously with the, with the Randall cycle, you know, which I, I totally agree with, you know, that would then, you know, further my argument of just saying, don't eat Carbs, you know, just, just let your body just run on Fat and, and keep going that way. Ozempic Yeah. Is is one of these drugs that, that shows a lot of great weight loss, you know, just like with the, the biggest loser though, it does seem, when people stop it, they get a rebounding effect. Yeah. And actually put on more weight than they lost.

Anthony (1h 6m 46s):

And so that, that, yeah, we're gonna see it, what, what that does to all these people are on it. I mean, I was just at the pharmacy the other day picking up some antihistamines for, for my girlfriend and, and there's a sign there that said there's an ozempic shortage, you know, so this is, this is really getting out there. So hopefully, hopefully that doesn't come, come crashing down. But you know, if you're not taking these drugs and you're just allowing your system, you know, to, to, to, to work in this normal fashion, you know, you know, glucose can matter, And, you know, eating carbohydrates can, you know, affect these sorts of things. Cortisol is a major factor. And there are studies in a lot in, in mice. I've seen some in pediatric populations that go on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy and they find a, a marginal increase in their cortisol.

Anthony (1h 7m 32s):

But I've also seen other studies that, you know, went on a ketogenic diet and there are thousands of studies with, you know, showing the benefits of a ketogenic diet and not even like the ketogenic diet. I would, I would describe too, which is, you know, just meat based, because you can have a ketogenic diet that sort of means anything, it just means no Carbs and they can actually be high in, in, in polyunsaturated fatty acids and things like that, which I, I don't think would be a good idea. And a lot of these plants and vegetables that have, have all these sorts of defense chemicals that aren't great for you. But even then, you know, there, there are a number of studies that I've found some that actually show there that, that, you know, after eight weeks on a ketogenic diet, they actually found a lowering of their cortisol. Some people argue that the other, you know, because there's mix, there's a lot of studies that that show one way or the other.

Anthony (1h 8m 14s):

And some people argue that it's potentially a, a, a, a marginal rise in cortisol in some populations because they may have been actually deficient in cortisol and metabolic metabolic syndrome is known to suppress her cortisol. And then this may be coming back to physiological levels. Again, going back to first principles. I do think that that's, that's, this is our normal way of eating. And so if we're finding that our cortisol is slightly higher in that context, I would, you know, I would sort of assume, or at least think that that could be physiological. There are other, other studies, there's one that followed obese patients for 24 months. They had significant weight loss and there was a statistically significant, they reduced their cholesterol, raised hdl, lowered a ldl, lower triglycerides, reduced their blood sugar significantly, didn't have any change in urea, creatinine, kidney function, anything like that.

Anthony (1h 9m 6s):

But they found that this, this ameliorated all the metabolic complications associated with hypercortisolism. And in fact there are actual, like, you know, studies that, that argue or even, you know, treatments that are, that are in place now for people with both a CT H dependent and independent cortisol hyper secretion that a ketogenic diet is advised during and after surgery or medical management of the primary cause of this. So it, while in some studies or in some people it may raise cortisol, it does seem to ameliorate and correct the symptoms of hypercortisolism. And so I, I think that that's, that lends evidence to the fact that if we're sort of eating a more natural diet, that even if our cortisol goes, goes up or, or down the effects of hyper like Cushing's is, is a devastating illness for people.

Anthony (1h 10m 1s):

But you know, and obviously you don't want that, and I don't, I don't want, I don't want any anybody to, to get that. Certainly not something that I'm, that I'm suggesting that they do But, it does appear that, that people in a ketogenic, on a ketogenic diet seem to fix those problems. And so maybe their cortisol goes up or down a bit, but the problems associated with hi hypercortisolism get better on a ketogenic diet, which a Carnivore diet is. I've haven't checked my cortisol specifically because I just haven't really cared to, I haven't thought you, you don't

Georgi (1h 10m 31s):

Look like they've had cortisol.

Anthony (1h 10m 32s):

Yeah, I have checked it in some of my patients who have been on Carnivore for, you know, two, three years, they've been normal, you know, they've had normal cortisol levels, normal insulin levels, normal H B A one C and blood glucose and things like that. There's more than one way to skin a cat, you know? And there, there are definitely ways that you can lose weight lots of ways. I mean, I used to eat Carbs. I used to eat a very normal diet, not a, not an ultra processed diet. I, I was never into that and I, you know, I played sports and I got into shape and I got very Lean, you can do it. I found it's a lot easier to do it eating just meat and, and not eating the sugar and Carbs, even when I would drink milk, like I love milk. I have to stop myself from eating, drinking milk because I just want to drink more of it. And so I do, I don't, I don't like that response.

Anthony (1h 11m 14s):

I don't like my body sort of, you know, wanting to crave something. But I noticed I was sort of, I ran an experiment where I was just like, you know, like the Maasai do it, like maybe some, some high Fat milk, maybe adding a bit of, you know, cream into, into whole milk, you know, can I just run on that? And I did that for a few days. I felt fine, everything was fine, but I did notice I was, I started to get a little chubby. I'm like, okay, maybe we'll stop that now. And went back to just eating fatty steaks, And, you know, leaned back up. And so, you know, I think that like, again, there, there are a number of different ways to do this. I've found that the, the biochemical state that we get into when we are on a Carnivore diet and excluding these other things, even milk and dairy, that that seems to be easier for, for people to lose weight and gain health.

Anthony (1h 12m 0s):

And that's my main, my main issue is, is gaining health. you know, and you, you can, you can give ozempic and that can increase the secretion of insulin and that can help with weight loss. But you know, what's that, that high insulin level doing to you over the years? you know, I, I think that that can be a problem as well.

Georgi (1h 12m 17s):

Yeah, I just, the reason I mentioned ozempic is not that I advertise or suggested any weight. No, I, it's only to illustrate that sometimes insulin promoters can be weight loss inducing, however, with the price of potentially getting acute pancreatitis, which is, which can be deadly. And that's a known side effect of most of these newer drugs. And I think that's, it's a terrible tragedy that people are jumping on the bandwagon of the ozempic simply because it's like a p it's a pill or you, it's an injection. So it's an easy fix. They go to the doctor, injects them once a week with something and then they lose weight. Well, you'd have to stay on this for life and risk acute pancreatitis, which eventually will kill you, potentially may even give you pancreatic cancer if it becomes chronic inflammatory con, chronic pancreatitis.

Georgi (1h 12m 59s):

Not many people know, but Steve Jobs and interesting anecdote had chronic pancreatitis for years because of, because of his primarily fruitarian diet. He did, he ate almost, he ate almost no protein and almost nothing else except, except fruits. I dunno exactly what kind of fruits he did. He ate, and eventually he died of pancreatic cancer. What's his name? Ashton Cursor, who did the biopic on jobs, put himself on the same diet and if you go and go and type and look it up, he ended up in the hospital twice during the movie production, twice with acute pancreatitis. So he freaked him out and his doctor said, whatever you are eating, you better stop it now because, you know, I don't want you to end up like Steve Jobs.

Georgi (1h 13m 42s):

So something about these extreme diets, basically. So which, and the protter diet is almost primarily entirely Carbs. I think it's an indication that you can actually air in the side of like eating too many Carbs, especially if they're not balanced by the other micronutrients. But as, as far as the, the, the ketogenic that lowering cortisol, some of them lowering the other one are raising, my explanation is it would be due to the, the composition of the Fat of the bat. Now, if pupil are activating cortisol release and they're also precursive to inflammatory mediators, of course the body will adapt to race cortisol even more to handle the inflammation, right? Fat attacks actually have a very different, they actually, they, they act as a C T H antagonists, many of them. And the medium to short chain fatty acids are also GABA agonists and several tumor studies demonstrated.

Georgi (1h 14m 27s):

If you give strong GABA agonists, you can actually treat calcium syndrome, you can keep the cortisol, it's not gonna cure the tumor. If it's a pituitary origin or adrenal origin But, it will keep the cortisol levels normal. And I think the saturated fats, if you're eating vore diet where the meat is predominantly from rum animals because they mostly produce the saturated fats, I think that will mimic the en they will give you the anti cortisol effect because of these saturated fats. If you eat most pork chicken, and especially the fatty portion of the pork large has acquired this mythical status of high saturated Fat diet in animal studies. Yet it's not true. Actually, the pigs, the, the, the Fat composition is, they're very similar to us.

Georgi (1h 15m 8s):

Whatever you feed them, that's the kind of Fat that they're going to deposit. And if you eat feeding them mostly grains And, now the seed oils are mostly made from these seeds, right? Including grains, then they're going to get predominantly Poland saturated fats in their, in their diet. So I think the, the, the carnival diet has great potential if you're careful about the meat that you're eating, right? Rum, animals mostly, and maybe lead chicken, Lean, birds, things like that. And, and yeah, and basically making sure that the Fat that you're, that you're taking, that you're e ingesting is predominantly of the saturated and the mono atu kind limit, poof of intake as much as possible. Interesting. There is a study with rats, which was testing what would proof of depletion, because proof is considered essential still in medical circles, to my knowledge.

Georgi (1h 15m 51s):

What would proof of depletion due due to rats, So, they made these rats, basically the deficient on proof of by feeding them coconut oil. And these rats became impossible to, first of all, they never got cancer throughout their lifetime. Second, when they try to basically inject them with several different types of rat tumors, the the, the cell culture never took home. Basically the rat organism killed it. So, they were extremely resistant to being killed by, by, you know, tumor genesis to be by endotoxemia. They injected them with endotoxin. And it took 20 times, I think the little amount that normally would take to kill a rat, to kill these, right? And these rats, all they ate was basically coconut oil. And I didn't, meat was basically dried Fat meat from what I, if I remember correctly, plus the addition of coconut oil.

Georgi (1h 16m 36s):

They did not eat any Carbs. But. it shows that if you, maybe it really is pofa that is basically the main driver of all these things. And if you can eliminate the pofa, then you can probably eat, and of course avoiding the plants, but they are also very high in pofa. Then after that you can probably eat pretty much whatever you want. But the things that, that remain are not that many, which is milk, eggs, and meat.

Anthony (1h 16m 59s):

Well, I a hundred percent agree with all that. So yeah, there's, there's definitely no disagreement there. Yeah,

Brian (1h 17m 6s):

Lots of good stuff. We could probably go on for a long time. I'll, you know, I think the, the main thing to take is a little bit of self experimentation, right? Yeah. I think everyone's a little bit different. I've noticed that with myself. you know, I was fairly meat based. I've added in some fruits after talking with Georgi and Jay Feldman. And it's interesting, I originally put on a little weight But, it actually came back eating the same amount. I added about 700 calories, but my weight and then put on weight. Then six, about five, four to six months later, the weight came back to my normal and I was still eating the, the, the more calories and adding in the fruit. So, you know, I think something to be said about increasing metabolic rate, and I think the, the big thing that, you know, Georgi talks a lot about is Fat is almost like using Fat as fuel is almost like a backup system.

Brian (1h 18m 1s):

And, you know, like you've talked about Georgi, how fasting and even low carb can sort of maybe even slow down metabolic rate potentially while, you know, you should look more towards increasing metabolic rate by maybe eating more and adding in some whole food Carbs. And this might actually more be more optimal because a lot of times if we look ancestrally, yes, there's ancestors that ate all rice, a lot of rice, right? And there's ancestors that ate all lot of meat. So you can see both extremes. But I think most importantly is, you know, what is optimal, not necessarily what was done ancestrally. And so, you know, everyone's gotta sort of go through their self experimentation.

Brian (1h 18m 42s):

But, you know, I I I felt it was important to get, you know, both perspectives on and to discuss, you know, these two variables

Georgi (1h 18m 50s):

With one clarification when you're, when you're fasting and, and which of course results in upper lipolysis. I think the reason we're getting the anti metabolic effect is not necessarily the Fat per se, but unfortunately when we're eating fats that are of mixed nature there, there's saturated Fat poofer and monounsaturated Fat, the body seems to prioritize the oxidation of the saturated and monounsaturated fats while the pofu is predominantly stored. So conversely, when we're doing lipo, when we're fasting, and basically in the state of elevated lipolysis, we'll be releasing predominantly proof of from the stores. And that I think will cause it, it, that's probably the main, the main driver behind many of these bad effects that we're seeing from, from basically elevated free fatty acids in the body is because most of them are actually poly 30 fats.

Georgi (1h 19m 36s):

If you look at babies during ke think for the first week or something of like when they're, when, when they're born, but the fats that are in their blood, if you compare the Fat acid profile, it's heavily shifted in favor of saturated fats. They're about like 90% saturated Fat. And babies don't seem to be getting any problems with, with elevated lipolysis. However, if you, if you take a type two diabetic and you basically stressed them out and they, they, they flood their blood with these poly saturated fats. Now multiple failures have come out and said that the kidney damage that we're seeing in diabetes, especially acute kidney injury, the pancreatitis, acute pancreatitis that we're seeing in sometimes in, in type two diabetic patients, cardiovascular disease like the, the actual heart attack, all a lot of these things are actually caused by the predominance of the poly Fat acids in the blood when they're released due to stress from the, from the stores.

Georgi (1h 20m 27s):

So, so if you're gonna be losing weight through lipolysis, I think it, it will help if you're taking something like vitamin E just to keep the peroxidation in check and, and also maybe eating, taking like a, a spoon of coconut oil maybe a couple of times a day because it's multiple studies show that it's the, the ratio of the saturated Fat or the po saturated Fat in the blood, that also determines to a great degree how much damage the poofer would do, not just directly poof of itself because it's unsaturated, it can peroxidase, but also the saturated Fat are inhibitors of the coxin locks that through which the poof produces most of these inflammatory mediators. So if you're gonna be doing lipolysis, my my suggestion would be to make sure you have an antioxidant like such as vitamin E and or consume an addition of, of easily metabolizable saturated fats as found in coconut oil or beef towel.

Georgi (1h 21m 20s):

But most people are not gonna eat beef style. A spoon of beef style just doesn't sound very appetizing, but refined coconut oil is tasteless and order less. So it shouldn't be that, that much of a problem to add a, add a tablespoon couple of times a day.

Anthony (1h 21m 33s):

Yeah, yeah. I I I, I would agree with all that. I, I think there, there's so many things and I would even, I would even submit that, you know, while I I I, I think that Carbs and sugar can be problematic. I, I do think that the poofs and omega six s are, are worse. And I think that they're a major, major, major driver of our, our disease state and so many different problems, you know, that we're, we're contending with. Now there's a, there's a great book that came out by Dr. Chris Kenobi and it's just called Ancestral Diet Revolution. It just came out recently. And he, and he really argues that this really is, is the seed oils. This really is the, you know, the, the PUFAs and things like that. And he shows a lot of very good evidence. He has like over 1300, you know, scientific references in his books, very well researched and, and cited.

Anthony (1h 22m 17s):

So it's, you know, he, it does seem that there, there is a very strong connection between, you know, not only disease but obesity. you know, that, that we, we see people in obese populations, you know, the, the moral overweight they are, they actually have a higher percentage of omega six s you know, that they're storing in their body. And there's, there's a few traditional populations alive right now that, you know, have very, very high saturated fats. you know, like, like the Maasai and I forget the name of the, of the tribe But, it sits, you know, one of the Pacific islands and they just drink a ton of coconut milk, a lot of coconut and you know, fish and things like that. No Carbs. So very high saturated Fat diet.

Anthony (1h 22m 57s):

Really No Carbs, very Lean, very healthy, very strong, just like the Maasai. And then in Papua New Guinea, there's a, there's a, a tribe, they'll eat some pig, but they don't eat as much, but a lot of their diet are yams. They have like, like sweet potatoes, right? There's like a hundred different varieties of sweet potatoes they use. So actually a majority of their, their calories come from these carbohydrates, from these, these, these sweet potatoes. But because they're not getting any of the, the, the seed oils and nothing's processed, they're again, Lean strong, healthy, not getting, you know, the, these rates of disease. So I, I do agree that I think that the, the poofs are a major, major driver of disease.

Anthony (1h 23m 36s):

They're just not natural. They didn't even exist, you know, a hundred years ago. And so, you know, cotton seed oil in the late 18 hundreds and And, you know, Crisco and, and canola oil And, you know, after that, like in the fifties and things like that with canola oil stuff is toxic. I mean, it just does, doesn't exist in our, in our diet at all. It never existed in our diet before that. So how are we gonna argue that this is biologically, you know, that we're biologically designed for something that didn't exist, you know, when we were being designed. So I definitely agree with that. There's, you know, as far as antioxidants are concerned, this is a good thing about, you know, sort of eating, you know, high, high meat based diet is, is again, you know, urea is gonna go up and this is, this is one of our body's strongest antioxidants.

Anthony (1h 24m 16s):

And so this is gonna carry a lot of that weight and a lot of that burden for people in the antioxidant point of view. You can obviously take other antioxidants like, you know, vitamin E and things like that. I wouldn't do it in the, the plant form because while plants do have antioxidants, yeah, they also have a lot of oxidants and So. They don't, you know, that can, that can definitely offset. And then just the last thing would be, I mean, there, there are some studies that show that there are, that you can actually get an increase in your basal metabolic rate. There was a study outta the BMJ in 2018 looking at the effects of low carbohydrate diet on the energy expenditure during weight loss. This was randomized trial and they found that in the, you know, very restrictive carbohydrate group So, they really, really were restricting carbohydrates the most that they had on an average.

Anthony (1h 25m 5s):

They, they had 278 kilo calories more per day of en energy expenditure. And in the, the low carb, but not no carb group was, was better than the just the normal carb group. That's not the only, that's not the only factor. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm definitely in agreeance with that and I'm sure there are a lot of other factors that, that go into that. But you know, I do think that, you know, being, you know that there's a lot of evidence for a ketogenic diet and with the caveat, that important caveat that the studies that look at and the people that use more animal Fat, more saturated Fat do better.

Anthony (1h 25m 45s):

Yeah. And there are, there are studies with ketogenic diets with cancer that showed very good results. And there's one that have middling results. And I, and I think that's probably the dis distinction there. Also, some of them will look to say it is a ketogenic diet and you can eat as much as 50 grams a day. And I would say no, no, you can't, you know, especially when we're dealing with something like cancer. But a lot of, but some of the studies with looking at carbohydrate or carbohydrate restrictive diets like ketogenic diet, some of the ones that will have middling results, you'll, you'll notice that they, they don't limit PUFAs. They, they don't, you know, prioritize saturated fats and things like that. And I think, I think that's a major, major reason why you see a difference.

Georgi (1h 26m 23s):

Maybe the big takeaway is if you're eating high carb diet, you better keep Fat low because all tho those Carbs and the insulin that they raise, they're gonna prevent the Fat from being oxidized. So you're gonna store it almost completely. If you're eating a high Fat diet, then it's probably not a good idea to eat also a lot of Carbs with it because the Fat diet is going to prevent the metabolism with the glucose and it's going to float around cause all kinds of problems increase lactic acid, high blood pressure, et cetera, et cetera. So, and then if you're reading the high, the high Fat diet of course goes without saying make sure it's predominantly saturated. So maybe both are, both, both pathways are okay. It's really when these two macronutrients class, and especially because they, they are competitive in nature when it comes to their metabolism.

Georgi (1h 27m 3s):

And especially if you're eating the poofer, which is also has an extra anti metabolic effect of its own and inflamm and inflammatory, then really all hell breaks loose. It'll be better to eat predominantly one or the other. And if you're eating the Fat would be mostly saturated. That, that, that would be my takeaway I think from this discussion.

Anthony (1h 27m 20s):

No, I, I, I would definitely agree with that as well. you know, that that's why, you know, people saying, well, you need a very diet, you need to sort of be everything. It's like, no, no, you really don't want to do that. You wanna be very limited, you know, the diet is, is very specific in nature and, and it needs to be for us as well, you know, all animals eat very specific things and that's due to their biological design and, and we're animals and so, you know, those same, yep, those same physical, physiological and biological laws apply. And so yeah, I would agree with that, that, you know, again, there's, there's more than one way of doing things. I think that, you know, just carnivores is probably, you know, a very good way, if not the best way, at least from what I've found and from my research.

Anthony (1h 28m 0s):

But yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're doing one or the other and you're, and you're being careful about that and eliminating or eliminating PUFAs, then I, I think you can get very good results either way.

Georgi (1h 28m 10s):

Yeah, there's a trap trap called Ani. They're in the Amazon and they eat 90% carbohydrates, mostly from tubers. They eat almost no Fat simply because it's not available. And basically whatever protein they get is either they killed some fish, tropical fish is mostly saturated Fat and protein or some animals in the trees cuz they live in the jungle. And these people have, I think they have no confirmed case of cardiovascular disease despite o on autopsy cuz they, they have autopsy, some of them they do have the lesions in their, in their basically their in their arteries. But for some reason that plaque never, never, you know, separates and causes a clogging and their levels of the inflammatory biomarkers such as C R P and erythrocyte sedimentation rate and interleukin one and six are about one third of what we're seeing in the western populations.

Georgi (1h 29m 0s):

So I think plenty of examples that the native cultures know what they're doing and they can adapt to whatever nature provides there and they can thrive as long as they're not being fed these mass produced empty calories basically, which were created for only one reason and that is profit and they were never designed with, with health in mind. Absolutely. Yeah,

Brian (1h 29m 22s):

And I'll just finish off at just one point in the, in the sense that like, I think the goal is optimal health and optimal health is more than just looking at weight loss. I mean, I think that's one aspect of it, but you know, great e energy, restorative sleep, clear skin, good libido, peaceful mood, low stress, you know, Lean, muscle mass, well-functioning gut. I think these are all pillars and things that we should look at other than just having a six pack, right? Yeah. So I, I think that's just something to keep in mind as, as we move on and, and yeah, so I w w we can, we can talk about a lot of things, but I'll say that like going Carnivore keto or low carb, which I did for quite a while is great if, especially if you're just coming off a standard American diet.

Brian (1h 30m 3s):

I mean, even going vegetarian is a, is a better move from the standard American diet. So you can get improved outcomes both ways just, but you know, obviously I would, I would advise and just, you know, with you like we talked about today is, you know, eating more protein, cutting out gus gut stressors, removing seed oils and increasing saturated fats and then eliminating junk food I think are just a good place to start. And, you know, you can titrate Carbs how you like, depending on, on how you're feeling and things like that. I've grown to sort of enjoy bringing back some whole food Carbs. Cause I think we say Carbs and that's such a broad term, you know, there's a lot of, there's refined Carbs and there's some whole food Carbs that I think could possibly be beneficial.

Brian (1h 30m 48s):

Again, it's sort of that self-experimentation

Georgi (1h 30m 51s):

And I would add avoiding corn stress because the sympathetic and parasympathetic system are antagonizing each other. So as long as you're under chronic stress, no matter how optimally you eat, a lot of that, a lot of that food is not going to go towards it's, it's the goals and the purposes that it, that that, that, that it was, that, that it was meant to be basically high cortisol, slow sound digestion inhibits the release of a lot of the enzymes from the pancreas such as lipase, amylase, and protease. So you're not gonna be digesting as much of the food. And then of course it makes the, the, the intestine, the enter chromo cells and intestine produce a lot more serotonin. So you're gonna have gut dis gut imbalances, your digestion won't be suffering.

Georgi (1h 31m 33s):

So if you're under chronic stress, I think that needs to be addressed as well because if you, if that does not get addressed, I think ultimately, you know, know that is going to help you. And chronic stress is not recognized as the, perhaps the main factor behind cardiovascular disease and public cancers and lately even even Alzheimer's disease. So if you're, you're working 12 hours a day and you feel like you're killing yourself, then I think that that is not going to help. But of course it, it always helps to eat more healthy. But I think the elephant in the room will be, we're not meant to be in a chronic flight or flight or flight response 12 hours out of the day in nature when the gazelle is being chased by the lion, it lasts maybe a no actually 30 seconds.

Georgi (1h 32m 15s):

Either the lion catches it or the gazelle runs away. And then the stressful, both animals goes down, right? Not 12 hours a day. There's this hyper activation of the adrenal system that we're currently living under. And I think for most people in the western world is like that. I think that can also be a very big factor in chronic disease and can, it can undercut, it can undermine a lot of the positive effects of dietary choices, you know, and people are like, well, I changed my diet, now I'm eating all the healthy foods and I'm still sick. Well, if your cortisol is high, then you know, if it's higher than normal and it stays elevated longer than what is optimal, then you, you're probably not going to be in optimal health long term.

Brian (1h 32m 53s):

Well said.

Anthony (1h 32m 55s):

Yeah. Just to add to that, there was a, there was an interesting study looking at cardiovascular disease and it was an interventional trial and, and looking at stress and So, they, they had people meditate for 40 minutes a day. That was it, that was the only, the only intervention. And they found that they actually were, were able to reverse their atherosclerotic plaques just by meditating. So no medications or additions or dietary changes. So just that that, you know, conscious de-stressing actually was, it was clinically proven to actually reverse cardiovascular disease. So it's one of the few things that has, there are other studies that, that have come out from, like Dr. Dr. Mara in the US showing that that reducing visceral Fat can actually remove blockages as well and, and, and, and revitalize the cerebral vascular perfusion on, on, on imaging.

Anthony (1h 33m 45s):

you know, showing that is, is objectively, you know, improving that as well. But I really thought that was, that was interesting also, you know, caffeine we're, we're quite reliant on caffeine and that can, that can raise cortisol and, and raise your stress and put you in that sort of hyper hypervigilant state a a lot as well. So yeah, I think that's, that's very good advice. you know, diet is a major, major piece of the puzzle. But, it's not the only one. You have to optimize other parts of your life as well. And if you're feeling like, you know, you're, you're overworked and, and your job is killing you, it probably is. you know, and I've, I've, I've found that optimizing other parts of your life like diet and, and so on, and not relying on caffeine that has allowed me to work stupid hours and not be stressed out and not be freaked out and, and be able to, to weather that pretty well as well.

Anthony (1h 34m 32s):

So it all comes, it all comes together, it's all a package. It's not just one thing that's gonna fix everything you need. You need everything working well together for optimal health.

Brian (1h 34m 42s):

Totally agree. Well this was great guys. you know, maybe in a few months we'll we'll get part two going, but where's the best place Georgi, where's the best place for people to find you? I know you got your blog.

Georgi (1h 34m 55s):

Well that's pretty much it. The blog is ha.me, me, h a i d u t.me. And that feed you to Twitter where basically it's Twitter, twitter dotcom slash ha. The same, the same alias. And I used to answer personal email, but people would start really overwhelmingly with like, with their medical histories and such. And I also don't wanna get into a situation where, cuz they're obviously asking for diagnosis treatment and obviously I'm not a doctor and I always advise 'em to go to the doctor, but if they had poor experience with the medical system, many of them have given up on it, or at least they don't, they don't interact with their doctor as often as they should be So they kind of rely on me for that. I don't want that. I mean I'm kind of trying to move away from that.

Georgi (1h 35m 35s):

So I post I think, enough for people to be making conscious decisions of what to show to their doctor and decide with their doctor or healthcare provider what to do And, what not to do. I'm, I I I try, I don't want to be in a position where I'm giving advice of what to do And what not to do.

Brian (1h 35m 50s):

Yeah, and I'll, I'll definitely put Links in the show notes and, and Dr. Chaffee best place for people to find you.

Anthony (1h 35m 58s):

Yeah, well you know, I have YouTube channels just my name Anthony Chaffee MD as well as my Instagram's the same as Anthony Chaffee md. That's where I'd sort of do most of my posts and things like that. And I have a, a, a podcast called The Plant Free md. Just sort of just, just to telegraph that right there, you know, that, that's sort of my thing. And, and then I, on Twitter, Anthony underscore Chaffee and tho those are the main ones and people can find, find me through that.

Brian (1h 36m 25s):

Excellent. Well again, appreciate you guys getting together on different time zones and we made it work and thanks for coming on the, on the show.

Georgi (1h 36m 33s):

Thanks. Thanks for letting me.

Anthony (1h 36m 34s):

Yeah, it's a pleasure.

Brian (1h 36m 37s):

Thanks for listening to the GETLEAN e Clean podcast. I understand there are millions of other Podcasts out there and you've chosen to listen to mine and I appreciate that. Check out the show notes at Brian Gryn dot com for everything that was mentioned, In, this episode. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast, share it with a friend or family member that's looking to get their body back to what it once was. Thanks again and.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee and Georgi Dinkov

Dr. Anthony Chaffee is a medical doctor and nutritional researcher focused on animal foods to optimize health and performance. He’s the host of the Plant-Free MD podcast, the Carnivore Fix Facebook group, and an amazing YouTube channel (Anthony Chaffee MD) where he posts interviews, short clips, and in-depth content. Dr. Chaffee is also a former all-American rugby player.


Georgi Dinkov is a computer scientist with a passion for biochemistry and the ideas of Ray Peat. He has read thousands of studies and opened his own successful online supplement store.


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